I Wonder Why?

[monte]

Unfortunately the carrot of NYC / MSG is over-rated and does not have the allure many on here like to think it has.. Otherwise why would the top HS kids chose places like Spokane, Lawrence, or heaven forbid, Storrs or Syracuse? To paraphrase Popeye, "We are what we are"...

The RIGHT coach maximizes the advantages of their locations, be it sleepy Storrs or sunny Gainesville. The best example and the best in the game is John Calipari. Whether it was Amherst or Memphis he got the players. Maybe players with an * but he got the players. He never let the lack of his conferences power ranking affect his recruiting success. His last 4 years at Memphis he went for 33 33, 38 and 33 wins. He earns over 8 million at UK with bonuses because he can get 10 high school all Americans. I think a guy earning 2 million should be good for at least 2 players in the bottom half of the top 100 every year. The results the last two years speak for themselves. He gets to the NCAA and is one and and does not reach the recruiting goals he is a gonner.

Agreed about the coach and ability to recruit. You must agree though, that Norm is a better recruiter selling Bill Self and Kansas, than SJU and Norm Roberts. Calipari can flat out sell, but SJU could win 4 championships in a row and never fork over $8 million a year to a coach. Lavin has done better than anyone in quite a while in terms of recruiting, but he did start 2011-2012 with an absolutely bankrupt roster. Still I'd agree that he's failed to bring in enough talent to offset any deficiencies he is as a strategist.

If you look at his whole body of work, I honestly do not think he's done such a stellar recruiting job. Yes he made a big splash initially, and he deserved a ton of credit for that, but that class never quite panned out. At that same time he turned away Ron Roberts who would have been a solid 4 year player for us. I'm not quite sure what happened with Polee and whether he was forced out, but there's another kid who would have been a serviceable 4 year player for us. He has failed to recruit a balanced roster in terms of players who compliment each other. He has not effectively spread out scholarships. He has failed to identify and recruit solid roll players and has grossly overestimated the abilities of kids like Hooper, Bourgault and now apparently Amar. He has not exactly ingratiated himself with the local high school and AAU coaches thus eliminating what has historically been our most effective pipeline. While its not my dime, he has traveled the country and the globe to find walk-ons and end of the bench type players. He has recruited kids with questionable academics without doing his due diligence(or ignoring the results) and without any kind of back-up plan. Other than his immediate predecessor, I would argue that he's actually done a worse recruiting job than any of our other coaches.

My point is, not to be overlooked is that instead of beginning his second year with 3-4 carryover players meriting playing time, Roberts left such an unbalanced roster that Lavin began year two with absolutely zero. To some extent, he is still crawling out of that hole now, and admittedly not filling that hole as quickly or with as much quality as needed to be a tourney team year in, year out.

As of this moment, we have at least three guys with NBA aspirations - Obekpa, Jordan, and to a lesser extent, Harrison. Sampson is in the NBA, even if you think you can't call the 76ers that, Harkless is in the NBA, and Sanchez is in the Dleague. Not a horrible resume, but again, he has to do better in that regard, and he knows that.

For those comparing our recruiting prowess to the Carnesecca days, I would say that with the rise of mid-majors and dozens of cable outlets, good players have many more choices to get noticed. 30 years ago if someone travelled anything but a top 20 program, you may not get a chance to ever see him play on TV unless his team was good enough to play on the CBS game of the week. Now on any given night there are multiple TV choices. I think this dilutes the type of talent SJU traditionally went after successfully, and makes recruiting significantly more difficult.

I don't disagree with what you're saying. It's no doubt a somewhat different ballgame, but the fundamentals of recruiting haven't changed completely. Hard work and personal relationships still mean an awful lot. What rational could he have for not immediately establishing ties with local programs? And what rational could he have for cutting loose Roberts and Polee, assuming he was forced out, while he was still trying to fill out a roster with D1 level talent. . And what rational could he have for needing to travel the world to bring in 4th and 5th tier talent? As I've mentioned before, in shear volume the NYC, Long Island and NJ schools produce plenty of quality kids. A huge part of being a successful recruiter means identifying and bringing in kids who will help you win, not just kids looking to showcase their talents with a "me first" mentality. Getting 4 and 5 star kids who are just use us as a stepping stone to the NBA does us no good if they are not part a winning program here. I don't follow the NBA so frankly I have no interest in what Samson or Moe do. I wish them both well as I would any kid anywhere, no more no less. Lavin's job here first and foremost is to win, not to say "I got so and so to the NBA". I don't care if he does it with NBA talent, D league level talent, European league talent or a combination of all 3.

 

[logen]

Unfortunately the carrot of NYC / MSG is over-rated and does not have the allure many on here like to think it has.. Otherwise why would the top HS kids chose places like Spokane, Lawrence, or heaven forbid, Storrs or Syracuse? To paraphrase Popeye, "We are what we are"...

The RIGHT coach maximizes the advantages of their locations, be it sleepy Storrs or sunny Gainesville. The best example and the best in the game is John Calipari. Whether it was Amherst or Memphis he got the players. Maybe players with an * but he got the players. He never let the lack of his conferences power ranking affect his recruiting success. His last 4 years at Memphis he went for 33 33, 38 and 33 wins. He earns over 8 million at UK with bonuses because he can get 10 high school all Americans. I think a guy earning 2 million should be good for at least 2 players in the bottom half of the top 100 every year. The results the last two years speak for themselves. He gets to the NCAA and is one and and does not reach the recruiting goals he is a gonner.

Agreed about the coach and ability to recruit. You must agree though, that Norm is a better recruiter selling Bill Self and Kansas, than SJU and Norm Roberts. Calipari can flat out sell, but SJU could win 4 championships in a row and never fork over $8 million a year to a coach. Lavin has done better than anyone in quite a while in terms of recruiting, but he did start 2011-2012 with an absolutely bankrupt roster. Still I'd agree that he's failed to bring in enough talent to offset any deficiencies he is as a strategist.

If you look at his whole body of work, I honestly do not think he's done such a stellar recruiting job. Yes he made a big splash initially, and he deserved a ton of credit for that, but that class never quite panned out. At that same time he turned away Ron Roberts who would have been a solid 4 year player for us. I'm not quite sure what happened with Polee and whether he was forced out, but there's another kid who would have been a serviceable 4 year player for us. He has failed to recruit a balanced roster in terms of players who compliment each other. He has not effectively spread out scholarships. He has failed to identify and recruit solid roll players and has grossly overestimated the abilities of kids like Hooper, Bourgault and now apparently Amar. He has not exactly ingratiated himself with the local high school and AAU coaches thus eliminating what has historically been our most effective pipeline. While its not my dime, he has traveled the country and the globe to find walk-ons and end of the bench type players. He has recruited kids with questionable academics without doing his due diligence(or ignoring the results) and without any kind of back-up plan. Other than his immediate predecessor, I would argue that he's actually done a worse recruiting job than any of our other coaches.

My point is, not to be overlooked is that instead of beginning his second year with 3-4 carryover players meriting playing time, Roberts left such an unbalanced roster that Lavin began year two with absolutely zero. To some extent, he is still crawling out of that hole now, and admittedly not filling that hole as quickly or with as much quality as needed to be a tourney team year in, year out.

Disagree wholeheartedly that Lavin is still affected by Roberts inbalance. He has been here 5 years, more than enough time to have this program in order. One could argue with me but I don't think he has recruited any better than Roberts did. On paper, yes, in reality, no.Harrison is obviously a better player than anyone Roberts recruited and personally I discount Harkless, not knocking him at all but his presence really did nothing to help the program. Hardy's senior year dwarfs anything Jordan has done and the rest of the players are basically a wash. Sampson made the pros and good for him but he was not an appreciably better college player than Brownlee, if he was at all. Again, Brownlee's senior year was certainly better than anything Sampson did. I do think it is only fair toI mention that Lavin is certainly recruiting in a more difficult situation given the demise of the BE but his recruiting over 5 years has been fair at best.

Actually, Hardy didn't have a great senior year. He had a great 10 game or so run. When he returned to earth, our post season chances were done. We were staggering to the gate long before Kennedy went down with a knee injury in the BET.

How could possibly discount an NBA one-and-done recruit as nothing to credit Lavin for? That makes no sense. Harrison may be better than anything Roberts recruited, but his NBA hopes are likely below that of Sampson and even Sanchez, and certainly below Obekpa and Jordan. So, right there you have 6 players that are better than anything Roberts recruited.

As Monte said above I couldn't care less who Lavin gets in the pros. Therefore I can easily discount Harkless who played one year on a losing team and went pro; he did nothing to advance the SJU program. I am not knocking him, that is the way the game is played now and no one can turn down that money but again what tangibly did his presence do for the program? Nothing. If you think getting players to the pros is a mark of good recruiting, OK; I don't. I look at the product on the court and we have put poor teams on the court IMO with Lavin's recruits. Last year we were decent but fell flat on our faces in crunch time. This year remains to be seen but the bottom line; I have not been impressed with Lavin's recruiting. Having good recruiting numbers for magazines and sending players to the pros mean nothing to me, building a consistent, sustainable program does. In that regard Lavin has not come close.

 

[dee]

Doc Butler

So you wonder why? So many cogent wonders why…you're not alone...DIon and the Belmonts (Bronx) circa 1958 for those old enough:

I wonder why
I love you like I do
Is it because I think you love me too
I wonder why
I love you like I do
Like I do

I prefer :Tell me Why"

tell my why you cried , and why you lied to me

by the beatles

 

[logen]

Unfortunately the carrot of NYC / MSG is over-rated and does not have the allure many on here like to think it has.. Otherwise why would the top HS kids chose places like Spokane, Lawrence, or heaven forbid, Storrs or Syracuse? To paraphrase Popeye, "We are what we are"...

The RIGHT coach maximizes the advantages of their locations, be it sleepy Storrs or sunny Gainesville. The best example and the best in the game is John Calipari. Whether it was Amherst or Memphis he got the players. Maybe players with an * but he got the players. He never let the lack of his conferences power ranking affect his recruiting success. His last 4 years at Memphis he went for 33 33, 38 and 33 wins. He earns over 8 million at UK with bonuses because he can get 10 high school all Americans. I think a guy earning 2 million should be good for at least 2 players in the bottom half of the top 100 every year. The results the last two years speak for themselves. He gets to the NCAA and is one and and does not reach the recruiting goals he is a gonner.

Agreed about the coach and ability to recruit. You must agree though, that Norm is a better recruiter selling Bill Self and Kansas, than SJU and Norm Roberts. Calipari can flat out sell, but SJU could win 4 championships in a row and never fork over $8 million a year to a coach. Lavin has done better than anyone in quite a while in terms of recruiting, but he did start 2011-2012 with an absolutely bankrupt roster. Still I'd agree that he's failed to bring in enough talent to offset any deficiencies he is as a strategist.

If you look at his whole body of work, I honestly do not think he's done such a stellar recruiting job. Yes he made a big splash initially, and he deserved a ton of credit for that, but that class never quite panned out. At that same time he turned away Ron Roberts who would have been a solid 4 year player for us. I'm not quite sure what happened with Polee and whether he was forced out, but there's another kid who would have been a serviceable 4 year player for us. He has failed to recruit a balanced roster in terms of players who compliment each other. He has not effectively spread out scholarships. He has failed to identify and recruit solid roll players and has grossly overestimated the abilities of kids like Hooper, Bourgault and now apparently Amar. He has not exactly ingratiated himself with the local high school and AAU coaches thus eliminating what has historically been our most effective pipeline. While its not my dime, he has traveled the country and the globe to find walk-ons and end of the bench type players. He has recruited kids with questionable academics without doing his due diligence(or ignoring the results) and without any kind of back-up plan. Other than his immediate predecessor, I would argue that he's actually done a worse recruiting job than any of our other coaches.

My point is, not to be overlooked is that instead of beginning his second year with 3-4 carryover players meriting playing time, Roberts left such an unbalanced roster that Lavin began year two with absolutely zero. To some extent, he is still crawling out of that hole now, and admittedly not filling that hole as quickly or with as much quality as needed to be a tourney team year in, year out.

Disagree wholeheartedly that Lavin is still affected by Roberts inbalance. He has been here 5 years, more than enough time to have this program in order. One could argue with me but I don't think he has recruited any better than Roberts did. On paper, yes, in reality, no.Harrison is obviously a better player than anyone Roberts recruited and personally I discount Harkless, not knocking him at all but his presence really did nothing to help the program. Hardy's senior year dwarfs anything Jordan has done and the rest of the players are basically a wash. Sampson made the pros and good for him but he was not an appreciably better college player than Brownlee, if he was at all. Again, Brownlee's senior year was certainly better than anything Sampson did. I do think it is only fair toI mention that Lavin is certainly recruiting in a more difficult situation given the demise of the BE but his recruiting over 5 years has been fair at best.

Actually, Hardy didn't have a great senior year. He had a great 10 game or so run. When he returned to earth, our post season chances were done. We were staggering to the gate long before Kennedy went down with a knee injury in the BET.

How could possibly discount an NBA one-and-done recruit as nothing to credit Lavin for? That makes no sense. Harrison may be better than anything Roberts recruited, but his NBA hopes are likely below that of Sampson and even Sanchez, and certainly below Obekpa and Jordan. So, right there you have 6 players that are better than anything Roberts recruited.

As Monte said above I couldn't care less who Lavin gets in the pros. Therefore I can easily discount Harkless who played one year on a losing team and went pro; he did nothing to advance the SJU program. I am not knocking him, that is the way the game is played now and no one can turn down that money but again what tangibly did his presence do for the program? Nothing. If you think getting players to the pros is a mark of good recruiting, OK; I don't. I look at the product on the court and we have put poor teams on the court IMO with Lavin's recruits. Last year we were decent but fell flat on our faces in crunch time. This year remains to be seen but the bottom line; I have not been impressed with Lavin's recruiting. Having good recruiting numbers for magazines and sending players to the pros mean nothing to me, building a consistent, sustainable program does. In that regard Lavin has not come close.

Let me add a hypothetical, if Lavin leaves after this year, and even if Jordan and Obekpa stay, is the program in as good a shape as when Roberts left? I would say no and Roberts left the program behind the 8 ball. Frankly, I don't see a way in the world Lavin succeeds here regardless of what we may do this year. I will root for SJU always and I hope if Lavin stays I am proven wrong but I just don't see a way.

 

[1and1sju]

Why were Jordan and Pointer benched to start the game?

 

[Jack Williams]

Why were Jordan and Pointer benched to start the game?

No reason given it seems like. Braziller plans to ask after the game,

 

[Class of 72]

Why were Jordan and Pointer benched to start the game?

Jordan snapped his neck too hard in practice. Pointer was benched for coming to the game with ugly corn rows. Lavin would have started Felix Balamou until Gene Keady slapped him upside the head.

 

[paultzman]

Why were Jordan and Pointer benched to start the game?

Keady after game said Dom missed a meeting and Jordan did not start because of committing so many TOs in last two games.

 

[Marillac]

Unfortunately the carrot of NYC / MSG is over-rated and does not have the allure many on here like to think it has.. Otherwise why would the top HS kids chose places like Spokane, Lawrence, or heaven forbid, Storrs or Syracuse? To paraphrase Popeye, "We are what we are"...

The RIGHT coach maximizes the advantages of their locations, be it sleepy Storrs or sunny Gainesville. The best example and the best in the game is John Calipari. Whether it was Amherst or Memphis he got the players. Maybe players with an * but he got the players. He never let the lack of his conferences power ranking affect his recruiting success. His last 4 years at Memphis he went for 33 33, 38 and 33 wins. He earns over 8 million at UK with bonuses because he can get 10 high school all Americans. I think a guy earning 2 million should be good for at least 2 players in the bottom half of the top 100 every year. The results the last two years speak for themselves. He gets to the NCAA and is one and and does not reach the recruiting goals he is a gonner.

Agreed about the coach and ability to recruit. You must agree though, that Norm is a better recruiter selling Bill Self and Kansas, than SJU and Norm Roberts. Calipari can flat out sell, but SJU could win 4 championships in a row and never fork over $8 million a year to a coach. Lavin has done better than anyone in quite a while in terms of recruiting, but he did start 2011-2012 with an absolutely bankrupt roster. Still I'd agree that he's failed to bring in enough talent to offset any deficiencies he is as a strategist.

If you look at his whole body of work, I honestly do not think he's done such a stellar recruiting job. Yes he made a big splash initially, and he deserved a ton of credit for that, but that class never quite panned out. At that same time he turned away Ron Roberts who would have been a solid 4 year player for us. I'm not quite sure what happened with Polee and whether he was forced out, but there's another kid who would have been a serviceable 4 year player for us. He has failed to recruit a balanced roster in terms of players who compliment each other. He has not effectively spread out scholarships. He has failed to identify and recruit solid roll players and has grossly overestimated the abilities of kids like Hooper, Bourgault and now apparently Amar. He has not exactly ingratiated himself with the local high school and AAU coaches thus eliminating what has historically been our most effective pipeline. While its not my dime, he has traveled the country and the globe to find walk-ons and end of the bench type players. He has recruited kids with questionable academics without doing his due diligence(or ignoring the results) and without any kind of back-up plan. Other than his immediate predecessor, I would argue that he's actually done a worse recruiting job than any of our other coaches.

My point is, not to be overlooked is that instead of beginning his second year with 3-4 carryover players meriting playing time, Roberts left such an unbalanced roster that Lavin began year two with absolutely zero. To some extent, he is still crawling out of that hole now, and admittedly not filling that hole as quickly or with as much quality as needed to be a tourney team year in, year out.

Disagree wholeheartedly that Lavin is still affected by Roberts inbalance. He has been here 5 years, more than enough time to have this program in order. One could argue with me but I don't think he has recruited any better than Roberts did. On paper, yes, in reality, no.Harrison is obviously a better player than anyone Roberts recruited and personally I discount Harkless, not knocking him at all but his presence really did nothing to help the program. Hardy's senior year dwarfs anything Jordan has done and the rest of the players are basically a wash. Sampson made the pros and good for him but he was not an appreciably better college player than Brownlee, if he was at all. Again, Brownlee's senior year was certainly better than anything Sampson did. I do think it is only fair toI mention that Lavin is certainly recruiting in a more difficult situation given the demise of the BE but his recruiting over 5 years has been fair at best.

Actually, Hardy didn't have a great senior year. He had a great 10 game or so run. When he returned to earth, our post season chances were done. We were staggering to the gate long before Kennedy went down with a knee injury in the BET.

How could possibly discount an NBA one-and-done recruit as nothing to credit Lavin for? That makes no sense. Harrison may be better than anything Roberts recruited, but his NBA hopes are likely below that of Sampson and even Sanchez, and certainly below Obekpa and Jordan. So, right there you have 6 players that are better than anything Roberts recruited.

As Monte said above I couldn't care less who Lavin gets in the pros. Therefore I can easily discount Harkless who played one year on a losing team and went pro; he did nothing to advance the SJU program. I am not knocking him, that is the way the game is played now and no one can turn down that money but again what tangibly did his presence do for the program? Nothing. If you think getting players to the pros is a mark of good recruiting, OK; I don't. I look at the product on the court and we have put poor teams on the court IMO with Lavin's recruits. Last year we were decent but fell flat on our faces in crunch time. This year remains to be seen but the bottom line; I have not been impressed with Lavin's recruiting. Having good recruiting numbers for magazines and sending players to the pros mean nothing to me, building a consistent, sustainable program does. In that regard Lavin has not come close.

Let me add a hypothetical, if Lavin leaves after this year, and even if Jordan and Obekpa stay, is the program in as good a shape as when Roberts left? I would say no and Roberts left the program behind the 8 ball. Frankly, I don't see a way in the world Lavin succeeds here regardless of what we may do this year. I will root for SJU always and I hope if Lavin stays I am proven wrong but I just don't see a way.

I think this is silly. Norm left Lavin with 11 graduating players in one season (absolutely unheard of). If Lavin gets CO and Jordan back next season, and the new coach gets Stewart, Ali B, ADR, Balamou, Henderson, JDR, Jones, Samir Doughty (and womever Lav adds this class) and rest of the walkons, that is a fine well-balanced roster. Norm didn't even leave Lavin with decent walkons!

Jordan has two seasons of eligibility left. A 2016-2017 back court of Jordan-Stewart-Henderson-Balamou-Doughty looks pretty solid to me.

 

[redken]

Doc Butler

So you wonder why? So many cogent wonders why…you're not alone...DIon and the Belmonts (Bronx) circa 1958 for those old enough:

I wonder why
I love you like I do
Is it because I think you love me too
I wonder why
I love you like I do
Like I do

I prefer :Tell me Why"

tell my why you cried , and why you lied to me

by the beatles

Or the Tommy Edwards hit single from the late '50s:

Many a tear has to fall / But it's all / In the game.

Don't know about the rest of you, but I've cried enough tears watching St. John's basketball over the years to fill a boat basin.

 

[Section3]

JJ

Unfortunately the carrot of NYC / MSG is over-rated and does not have the allure many on here like to think it has.. Otherwise why would the top HS kids chose places like Spokane, Lawrence, or heaven forbid, Storrs or Syracuse? To paraphrase Popeye, "We are what we are"...

The RIGHT coach maximizes the advantages of their locations, be it sleepy Storrs or sunny Gainesville. The best example and the best in the game is John Calipari. Whether it was Amherst or Memphis he got the players. Maybe players with an * but he got the players. He never let the lack of his conferences power ranking affect his recruiting success. His last 4 years at Memphis he went for 33 33, 38 and 33 wins. He earns over 8 million at UK with bonuses because he can get 10 high school all Americans. I think a guy earning 2 million should be good for at least 2 players in the bottom half of the top 100 every year. The results the last two years speak for themselves. He gets to the NCAA and is one and and does not reach the recruiting goals he is a gonner.

Agreed about the coach and ability to recruit. You must agree though, that Norm is a better recruiter selling Bill Self and Kansas, than SJU and Norm Roberts. Calipari can flat out sell, but SJU could win 4 championships in a row and never fork over $8 million a year to a coach. Lavin has done better than anyone in quite a while in terms of recruiting, but he did start 2011-2012 with an absolutely bankrupt roster. Still I'd agree that he's failed to bring in enough talent to offset any deficiencies he is as a strategist.

If you look at his whole body of work, I honestly do not think he's done such a stellar recruiting job. Yes he made a big splash initially, and he deserved a ton of credit for that, but that class never quite panned out. At that same time he turned away Ron Roberts who would have been a solid 4 year player for us. I'm not quite sure what happened with Polee and whether he was forced out, but there's another kid who would have been a serviceable 4 year player for us. He has failed to recruit a balanced roster in terms of players who compliment each other. He has not effectively spread out scholarships. He has failed to identify and recruit solid roll players and has grossly overestimated the abilities of kids like Hooper, Bourgault and now apparently Amar. He has not exactly ingratiated himself with the local high school and AAU coaches thus eliminating what has historically been our most effective pipeline. While its not my dime, he has traveled the country and the globe to find walk-ons and end of the bench type players. He has recruited kids with questionable academics without doing his due diligence(or ignoring the results) and without any kind of back-up plan. Other than his immediate predecessor, I would argue that he's actually done a worse recruiting job than any of our other coaches.

My point is, not to be overlooked is that instead of beginning his second year with 3-4 carryover players meriting playing time, Roberts left such an unbalanced roster that Lavin began year two with absolutely zero. To some extent, he is still crawling out of that hole now, and admittedly not filling that hole as quickly or with as much quality as needed to be a tourney team year in, year out.

Disagree wholeheartedly that Lavin is still affected by Roberts inbalance. He has been here 5 years, more than enough time to have this program in order. One could argue with me but I don't think he has recruited any better than Roberts did. On paper, yes, in reality, no.Harrison is obviously a better player than anyone Roberts recruited and personally I discount Harkless, not knocking him at all but his presence really did nothing to help the program. Hardy's senior year dwarfs anything Jordan has done and the rest of the players are basically a wash. Sampson made the pros and good for him but he was not an appreciably better college player than Brownlee, if he was at all. Again, Brownlee's senior year was certainly better than anything Sampson did. I do think it is only fair toI mention that Lavin is certainly recruiting in a more difficult situation given the demise of the BE but his recruiting over 5 years has been fair at best.

Recruiting is not even close...not 1 of Roberts players ever could have dreamed of leaving early...not on ly was he a terrible recruiter, he was incapable of recognizing who the nest players were and was never ever going to move the program forward

 

[TX Redman]

Doc Butler

So you wonder why? So many cogent wonders why…you're not alone...DIon and the Belmonts (Bronx) circa 1958 for those old enough:

I wonder why
I love you like I do
Is it because I think you love me too
I wonder why
I love you like I do
Like I do

I prefer :Tell me Why"

tell my why you cried , and why you lied to me

by the beatles

Or the Tommy Edwards hit single from the late '50s:

Many a tear has to fall / But it's all / In the game.

Don't know about the rest of you, but I've cried enough tears watching St. John's basketball over the years to fill a boat basin.

I immediately thought of Del Shannon:

I wonder
I wah-wah-wah-wah-wonder
Why
Why, why, why, why, why
She ran away

And I wonder
Where she will stay
My little runaway
A-run, run, run, run, runaway
​

Killer clavioline solo...

 

[Marillac]

JJ

Unfortunately the carrot of NYC / MSG is over-rated and does not have the allure many on here like to think it has.. Otherwise why would the top HS kids chose places like Spokane, Lawrence, or heaven forbid, Storrs or Syracuse? To paraphrase Popeye, "We are what we are"...

The RIGHT coach maximizes the advantages of their locations, be it sleepy Storrs or sunny Gainesville. The best example and the best in the game is John Calipari. Whether it was Amherst or Memphis he got the players. Maybe players with an * but he got the players. He never let the lack of his conferences power ranking affect his recruiting success. His last 4 years at Memphis he went for 33 33, 38 and 33 wins. He earns over 8 million at UK with bonuses because he can get 10 high school all Americans. I think a guy earning 2 million should be good for at least 2 players in the bottom half of the top 100 every year. The results the last two years speak for themselves. He gets to the NCAA and is one and and does not reach the recruiting goals he is a gonner.

Agreed about the coach and ability to recruit. You must agree though, that Norm is a better recruiter selling Bill Self and Kansas, than SJU and Norm Roberts. Calipari can flat out sell, but SJU could win 4 championships in a row and never fork over $8 million a year to a coach. Lavin has done better than anyone in quite a while in terms of recruiting, but he did start 2011-2012 with an absolutely bankrupt roster. Still I'd agree that he's failed to bring in enough talent to offset any deficiencies he is as a strategist.

If you look at his whole body of work, I honestly do not think he's done such a stellar recruiting job. Yes he made a big splash initially, and he deserved a ton of credit for that, but that class never quite panned out. At that same time he turned away Ron Roberts who would have been a solid 4 year player for us. I'm not quite sure what happened with Polee and whether he was forced out, but there's another kid who would have been a serviceable 4 year player for us. He has failed to recruit a balanced roster in terms of players who compliment each other. He has not effectively spread out scholarships. He has failed to identify and recruit solid roll players and has grossly overestimated the abilities of kids like Hooper, Bourgault and now apparently Amar. He has not exactly ingratiated himself with the local high school and AAU coaches thus eliminating what has historically been our most effective pipeline. While its not my dime, he has traveled the country and the globe to find walk-ons and end of the bench type players. He has recruited kids with questionable academics without doing his due diligence(or ignoring the results) and without any kind of back-up plan. Other than his immediate predecessor, I would argue that he's actually done a worse recruiting job than any of our other coaches.

My point is, not to be overlooked is that instead of beginning his second year with 3-4 carryover players meriting playing time, Roberts left such an unbalanced roster that Lavin began year two with absolutely zero. To some extent, he is still crawling out of that hole now, and admittedly not filling that hole as quickly or with as much quality as needed to be a tourney team year in, year out.

Disagree wholeheartedly that Lavin is still affected by Roberts inbalance. He has been here 5 years, more than enough time to have this program in order. One could argue with me but I don't think he has recruited any better than Roberts did. On paper, yes, in reality, no.Harrison is obviously a better player than anyone Roberts recruited and personally I discount Harkless, not knocking him at all but his presence really did nothing to help the program. Hardy's senior year dwarfs anything Jordan has done and the rest of the players are basically a wash. Sampson made the pros and good for him but he was not an appreciably better college player than Brownlee, if he was at all. Again, Brownlee's senior year was certainly better than anything Sampson did. I do think it is only fair toI mention that Lavin is certainly recruiting in a more difficult situation given the demise of the BE but his recruiting over 5 years has been fair at best.

Recruiting is not even close...not 1 of Roberts players ever could have dreamed of leaving early...not on ly was he a terrible recruiter, he was incapable of recognizing who the nest players were and was never ever going to move the program forward

IMO, Norm would have went to the NIT with that roster if he stayed and we wouldn't have ever known how great Hardy or Brownlee could be. Dunlap had to draw up a defense to make up for SJU's lack of size (nobody contributing over 6'8). Norm was terrible. Let's not forget that he inherited two All-Big East players (Showtime, Hamilton) that were going into their second seasons.

Also, how can anyone say that the imbalance doesn't affect this season? It hasn't been five years. The imbalance came after Lavin's first year...this recruiting class is the end. Lavin has done a fine job restoring that balance regardless of what the haters may think of the talent of those players. He would have been better served signing two less talented guys than Moe and Jakkar as well, but it's hard to fault him for that.

 

[JohnnyFan]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

 

[bamafan]

Hey Marillac the only way Balamou will be around in 16-17 is if he redshirts next year after your best bud burned last years redshirt year by playing him for 10 minutes in one game.

 

[Marillac]

Hey Marillac the only way Balamou will be around in 16-17 is if he redshirts next year after your best bud burned last years redshirt year by playing him for 10 minutes in one game.

I believe he will get that back.

 

[Marillac]

Hey Marillac the only way Balamou will be around in 16-17 is if he redshirts next year after your best bud burned last years redshirt year by playing him for 10 minutes in one game.

And he's not my best bud. I am just willing to give the man the benefit of having his first recruiting class finish. Is that too much to ask?

 

[Andrew]

Unfortunately the carrot of NYC / MSG is over-rated and does not have the allure many on here like to think it has.. Otherwise why would the top HS kids chose places like Spokane, Lawrence, or heaven forbid, Storrs or Syracuse? To paraphrase Popeye, "We are what we are"...

The RIGHT coach maximizes the advantages of their locations, be it sleepy Storrs or sunny Gainesville. The best example and the best in the game is John Calipari. Whether it was Amherst or Memphis he got the players. Maybe players with an * but he got the players. He never let the lack of his conferences power ranking affect his recruiting success. His last 4 years at Memphis he went for 33 33, 38 and 33 wins. He earns over 8 million at UK with bonuses because he can get 10 high school all Americans. I think a guy earning 2 million should be good for at least 2 players in the bottom half of the top 100 every year. The results the last two years speak for themselves. He gets to the NCAA and is one and and does not reach the recruiting goals he is a gonner.

Agreed about the coach and ability to recruit. You must agree though, that Norm is a better recruiter selling Bill Self and Kansas, than SJU and Norm Roberts. Calipari can flat out sell, but SJU could win 4 championships in a row and never fork over $8 million a year to a coach. Lavin has done better than anyone in quite a while in terms of recruiting, but he did start 2011-2012 with an absolutely bankrupt roster. Still I'd agree that he's failed to bring in enough talent to offset any deficiencies he is as a strategist.

If you look at his whole body of work, I honestly do not think he's done such a stellar recruiting job. Yes he made a big splash initially, and he deserved a ton of credit for that, but that class never quite panned out. At that same time he turned away Ron Roberts who would have been a solid 4 year player for us. I'm not quite sure what happened with Polee and whether he was forced out, but there's another kid who would have been a serviceable 4 year player for us. He has failed to recruit a balanced roster in terms of players who compliment each other. He has not effectively spread out scholarships. He has failed to identify and recruit solid roll players and has grossly overestimated the abilities of kids like Hooper, Bourgault and now apparently Amar. He has not exactly ingratiated himself with the local high school and AAU coaches thus eliminating what has historically been our most effective pipeline. While its not my dime, he has traveled the country and the globe to find walk-ons and end of the bench type players. He has recruited kids with questionable academics without doing his due diligence(or ignoring the results) and without any kind of back-up plan. Other than his immediate predecessor, I would argue that he's actually done a worse recruiting job than any of our other coaches.

My point is, not to be overlooked is that instead of beginning his second year with 3-4 carryover players meriting playing time, Roberts left such an unbalanced roster that Lavin began year two with absolutely zero. To some extent, he is still crawling out of that hole now, and admittedly not filling that hole as quickly or with as much quality as needed to be a tourney team year in, year out.

Disagree wholeheartedly that Lavin is still affected by Roberts inbalance. He has been here 5 years, more than enough time to have this program in order. One could argue with me but I don't think he has recruited any better than Roberts did. On paper, yes, in reality, no.Harrison is obviously a better player than anyone Roberts recruited and personally I discount Harkless, not knocking him at all but his presence really did nothing to help the program. Hardy's senior year dwarfs anything Jordan has done and the rest of the players are basically a wash. Sampson made the pros and good for him but he was not an appreciably better college player than Brownlee, if he was at all. Again, Brownlee's senior year was certainly better than anything Sampson did. I do think it is only fair toI mention that Lavin is certainly recruiting in a more difficult situation given the demise of the BE but his recruiting over 5 years has been fair at best.

Actually, Hardy didn't have a great senior year. He had a great 10 game or so run. When he returned to earth, our post season chances were done. We were staggering to the gate long before Kennedy went down with a knee injury in the BET.

How could possibly discount an NBA one-and-done recruit as nothing to credit Lavin for? That makes no sense. Harrison may be better than anything Roberts recruited, but his NBA hopes are likely below that of Sampson and even Sanchez, and certainly below Obekpa and Jordan. So, right there you have 6 players that are better than anything Roberts recruited.

As Monte said above I couldn't care less who Lavin gets in the pros. Therefore I can easily discount Harkless who played one year on a losing team and went pro; he did nothing to advance the SJU program. I am not knocking him, that is the way the game is played now and no one can turn down that money but again what tangibly did his presence do for the program? Nothing. If you think getting players to the pros is a mark of good recruiting, OK; I don't. I look at the product on the court and we have put poor teams on the court IMO with Lavin's recruits. Last year we were decent but fell flat on our faces in crunch time. This year remains to be seen but the bottom line; I have not been impressed with Lavin's recruiting. Having good recruiting numbers for magazines and sending players to the pros mean nothing to me, building a consistent, sustainable program does. In that regard Lavin has not come close.

Let me add a hypothetical, if Lavin leaves after this year, and even if Jordan and Obekpa stay, is the program in as good a shape as when Roberts left? I would say no and Roberts left the program behind the 8 ball. Frankly, I don't see a way in the world Lavin succeeds here regardless of what we may do this year. I will root for SJU always and I hope if Lavin stays I am proven wrong but I just don't see a way.

I think this is silly. Norm left Lavin with 11 graduating players in one season (absolutely unheard of). If Lavin gets CO and Jordan back next season, and the new coach gets Stewart, Ali B, ADR, Balamou, Henderson, JDR, Jones, Samir Doughty (and womever Lav adds this class) and rest of the walkons, that is a fine well-balanced roster. Norm didn't even leave Lavin with decent walkons!

Jordan has two seasons of eligibility left. A 2016-2017 back court of Jordan-Stewart-Henderson-Balamou-Doughty looks pretty solid to me.

Jordan is a longshot to play his senior year in college. Balamou is a junior and will graduate in 2015-16. Hardly call this solid.

 

[bamafan]

Hey Marillac the only way Balamou will be around in 16-17 is if he redshirts next year after your best bud burned last years redshirt year by playing him for 10 minutes in one game.

And he's not my best bud. I am just willing to give the man the benefit of having his first recruiting class finish. Is that too much to ask?

I don't know, why don't we ask Marillac?

 

[OLV72]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.