I Wonder Why?

[41ndone]

Doc has raised some good points, some of which I wonder myself.

As one poster basically stated, Queens is not the heart of the City. Regardless of whether is is only an hour away by public transportation it is still travel time. We can complain about other towns not being NY and you would be right but it is not the town or city necessarily, part of it is the campus life and the fact that the location is a "College" town. You don't have to travel to find something to do and hang out with your peers every night without traveling to far or paying to travel if you do. St. John's does not have that same atmosphere on campus nor offer free regular shuttle service besides the one that runs to the Jamaica LIRR station during classes on weekdays, Sold out arenas with a fervent fan base even if in a smaller venue looks better than 1/3 filled MSG. MSG is still MSG but you don't have to go to St. John's to play there.



Great point.

 

[salty dog]

I wonder why among the many reasons to criticize Lavin, some posters are critical of him recruiting guys who leave early for the NBA?

Because that is what they do at Kentucky too.

 

[logen]

I wonder why people continually beat a dead horse. Honestly if you were in a coma for a year and checked the board out when you woke back up it would be the same exact crap being said and you'd think you never were out cold for a year.

We are 5-1.. We may win vs Syracuse. We may not. Why can't people just take it one game at a time? Why are people talking about next years team when we have no clue who else will commit here and who will leave.

Enjoy the damn season. Yeah there are good and bad things that happened last night, but we won. We all know Lavin isn't a great in game coach. No one is breaking new ground by stating that. Especially ad nauseum.

I wonder why people continually read posts and threads thay have no interest in - this is a DISCUSSION board, therefore we discuss; if you are not interested in our discussion, by all means ignore it. Frankly, I can only read WE ARE 5-1 so many times between now and Saturday and then I will just get bored. I know we are 5-1, I am enjoying it; I also enjoy talking about where I think the program is and where it is going. If you don't, don't; no one is going to think lesser of you. Besides, speaking for myself, I have no life and am passionate about the Johnnies.

Discussion board or repeating board... since all you do is repeat the exact same crap. Continue on

Again, I suggest you skip my posts; it'll be tough but I will survive. By the way, we are 5-1.

try to find me repeat just 1 time my schools record. Have a great day

Geez, lighten up, I am kidding. If my posts either bore, offend, or upset you just ignore them, seriously, just ignore them. But I don't tell you how or when to post; so please don't do it to me.

 

[salty dog]

Unfortunately the carrot of NYC / MSG is over-rated and does not have the allure many on here like to think it has.. Otherwise why would the top HS kids chose places like Spokane, Lawrence, or heaven forbid, Storrs or Syracuse? To paraphrase Popeye, "We are what we are"...

The RIGHT coach maximizes the advantages of their locations, be it sleepy Storrs or sunny Gainesville. The best example and the best in the game is John Calipari. Whether it was Amherst or Memphis he got the players. Maybe players with an * but he got the players. He never let the lack of his conferences power ranking affect his recruiting success. His last 4 years at Memphis he went for 33 33, 38 and 33 wins. He earns over 8 million at UK with bonuses because he can get 10 high school all Americans. I think a guy earning 2 million should be good for at least 2 players in the bottom half of the top 100 every year. The results the last two years speak for themselves. He gets to the NCAA and is one and and does not reach the recruiting goals he is a gonner.

Agreed about the coach and ability to recruit. You must agree though, that Norm is a better recruiter selling Bill Self and Kansas, than SJU and Norm Roberts. Calipari can flat out sell, but SJU could win 4 championships in a row and never fork over $8 million a year to a coach. Lavin has done better than anyone in quite a while in terms of recruiting, but he did start 2011-2012 with an absolutely bankrupt roster. Still I'd agree that he's failed to bring in enough talent to offset any deficiencies he is as a strategist.

If you look at his whole body of work, I honestly do not think he's done such a stellar recruiting job. Yes he made a big splash initially, and he deserved a ton of credit for that, but that class never quite panned out. At that same time he turned away Ron Roberts who would have been a solid 4 year player for us. I'm not quite sure what happened with Polee and whether he was forced out, but there's another kid who would have been a serviceable 4 year player for us. He has failed to recruit a balanced roster in terms of players who compliment each other. He has not effectively spread out scholarships. He has failed to identify and recruit solid roll players and has grossly overestimated the abilities of kids like Hooper, Bourgault and now apparently Amar. He has not exactly ingratiated himself with the local high school and AAU coaches thus eliminating what has historically been our most effective pipeline. While its not my dime, he has traveled the country and the globe to find walk-ons and end of the bench type players. He has recruited kids with questionable academics without doing his due diligence(or ignoring the results) and without any kind of back-up plan. Other than his immediate predecessor, I would argue that he's actually done a worse recruiting job than any of our other coaches.

My point is, not to be overlooked is that instead of beginning his second year with 3-4 carryover players meriting playing time, Roberts left such an unbalanced roster that Lavin began year two with absolutely zero. To some extent, he is still crawling out of that hole now, and admittedly not filling that hole as quickly or with as much quality as needed to be a tourney team year in, year out.

Disagree wholeheartedly that Lavin is still affected by Roberts inbalance. He has been here 5 years, more than enough time to have this program in order. One could argue with me but I don't think he has recruited any better than Roberts did. On paper, yes, in reality, no.Harrison is obviously a better player than anyone Roberts recruited and personally I discount Harkless, not knocking him at all but his presence really did nothing to help the program. Hardy's senior year dwarfs anything Jordan has done and the rest of the players are basically a wash. Sampson made the pros and good for him but he was not an appreciably better college player than Brownlee, if he was at all. Again, Brownlee's senior year was certainly better than anything Sampson did. I do think it is only fair toI mention that Lavin is certainly recruiting in a more difficult situation given the demise of the BE but his recruiting over 5 years has been fair at best.

Actually, Hardy didn't have a great senior year. He had a great 10 game or so run. When he returned to earth, our post season chances were done. We were staggering to the gate long before Kennedy went down with a knee injury in the BET.

How could possibly discount an NBA one-and-done recruit as nothing to credit Lavin for? That makes no sense. Harrison may be better than anything Roberts recruited, but his NBA hopes are likely below that of Sampson and even Sanchez, and certainly below Obekpa and Jordan. So, right there you have 6 players that are better than anything Roberts recruited.

As Monte said above I couldn't care less who Lavin gets in the pros. Therefore I can easily discount Harkless who played one year on a losing team and went pro; he did nothing to advance the SJU program. I am not knocking him, that is the way the game is played now and no one can turn down that money but again what tangibly did his presence do for the program? Nothing. If you think getting players to the pros is a mark of good recruiting, OK; I don't. I look at the product on the court and we have put poor teams on the court IMO with Lavin's recruits. Last year we were decent but fell flat on our faces in crunch time. This year remains to be seen but the bottom line; I have not been impressed with Lavin's recruiting. Having good recruiting numbers for magazines and sending players to the pros mean nothing to me, building a consistent, sustainable program does. In that regard Lavin has not come close.

Let me add a hypothetical, if Lavin leaves after this year, and even if Jordan and Obekpa stay, is the program in as good a shape as when Roberts left? I would say no and Roberts left the program behind the 8 ball. Frankly, I don't see a way in the world Lavin succeeds here regardless of what we may do this year. I will root for SJU always and I hope if Lavin stays I am proven wrong but I just don't see a way.

I think this is silly. Norm left Lavin with 11 graduating players in one season (absolutely unheard of). If Lavin gets CO and Jordan back next season, and the new coach gets Stewart, Ali B, ADR, Balamou, Henderson, JDR, Jones, Samir Doughty (and womever Lav adds this class) and rest of the walkons, that is a fine well-balanced roster. Norm didn't even leave Lavin with decent walkons!

Jordan has two seasons of eligibility left. A 2016-2017 back court of Jordan-Stewart-Henderson-Balamou-Doughty looks pretty solid to me.

Uh, Lavin was left with an NCAA team; his successor (hypothetically), gets a handful of players who have never accomplished anything at the D1 level, a center with extremely limited skills, and a highly rated point guard who has had a very, very uneven start to his career. And frankly, when talking silly, your description of the above as a "fine well-balanced roster" gives a whole new definition to the word. IMO, that group would have trouble winning a game in the BE.

Agree but the only thing I would say is that, the team Lavin inherited hadn't accomplished anything either. So he wasn't necessarily left with an ncaa team.

Very fair and true comment.

And only a moron would believe that Norm Roberts would have that team in the NCAA's

 

[logen]

Unfortunately the carrot of NYC / MSG is over-rated and does not have the allure many on here like to think it has.. Otherwise why would the top HS kids chose places like Spokane, Lawrence, or heaven forbid, Storrs or Syracuse? To paraphrase Popeye, "We are what we are"...

The RIGHT coach maximizes the advantages of their locations, be it sleepy Storrs or sunny Gainesville. The best example and the best in the game is John Calipari. Whether it was Amherst or Memphis he got the players. Maybe players with an * but he got the players. He never let the lack of his conferences power ranking affect his recruiting success. His last 4 years at Memphis he went for 33 33, 38 and 33 wins. He earns over 8 million at UK with bonuses because he can get 10 high school all Americans. I think a guy earning 2 million should be good for at least 2 players in the bottom half of the top 100 every year. The results the last two years speak for themselves. He gets to the NCAA and is one and and does not reach the recruiting goals he is a gonner.

Agreed about the coach and ability to recruit. You must agree though, that Norm is a better recruiter selling Bill Self and Kansas, than SJU and Norm Roberts. Calipari can flat out sell, but SJU could win 4 championships in a row and never fork over $8 million a year to a coach. Lavin has done better than anyone in quite a while in terms of recruiting, but he did start 2011-2012 with an absolutely bankrupt roster. Still I'd agree that he's failed to bring in enough talent to offset any deficiencies he is as a strategist.

If you look at his whole body of work, I honestly do not think he's done such a stellar recruiting job. Yes he made a big splash initially, and he deserved a ton of credit for that, but that class never quite panned out. At that same time he turned away Ron Roberts who would have been a solid 4 year player for us. I'm not quite sure what happened with Polee and whether he was forced out, but there's another kid who would have been a serviceable 4 year player for us. He has failed to recruit a balanced roster in terms of players who compliment each other. He has not effectively spread out scholarships. He has failed to identify and recruit solid roll players and has grossly overestimated the abilities of kids like Hooper, Bourgault and now apparently Amar. He has not exactly ingratiated himself with the local high school and AAU coaches thus eliminating what has historically been our most effective pipeline. While its not my dime, he has traveled the country and the globe to find walk-ons and end of the bench type players. He has recruited kids with questionable academics without doing his due diligence(or ignoring the results) and without any kind of back-up plan. Other than his immediate predecessor, I would argue that he's actually done a worse recruiting job than any of our other coaches.

My point is, not to be overlooked is that instead of beginning his second year with 3-4 carryover players meriting playing time, Roberts left such an unbalanced roster that Lavin began year two with absolutely zero. To some extent, he is still crawling out of that hole now, and admittedly not filling that hole as quickly or with as much quality as needed to be a tourney team year in, year out.

Disagree wholeheartedly that Lavin is still affected by Roberts inbalance. He has been here 5 years, more than enough time to have this program in order. One could argue with me but I don't think he has recruited any better than Roberts did. On paper, yes, in reality, no.Harrison is obviously a better player than anyone Roberts recruited and personally I discount Harkless, not knocking him at all but his presence really did nothing to help the program. Hardy's senior year dwarfs anything Jordan has done and the rest of the players are basically a wash. Sampson made the pros and good for him but he was not an appreciably better college player than Brownlee, if he was at all. Again, Brownlee's senior year was certainly better than anything Sampson did. I do think it is only fair toI mention that Lavin is certainly recruiting in a more difficult situation given the demise of the BE but his recruiting over 5 years has been fair at best.

Actually, Hardy didn't have a great senior year. He had a great 10 game or so run. When he returned to earth, our post season chances were done. We were staggering to the gate long before Kennedy went down with a knee injury in the BET.

How could possibly discount an NBA one-and-done recruit as nothing to credit Lavin for? That makes no sense. Harrison may be better than anything Roberts recruited, but his NBA hopes are likely below that of Sampson and even Sanchez, and certainly below Obekpa and Jordan. So, right there you have 6 players that are better than anything Roberts recruited.

As Monte said above I couldn't care less who Lavin gets in the pros. Therefore I can easily discount Harkless who played one year on a losing team and went pro; he did nothing to advance the SJU program. I am not knocking him, that is the way the game is played now and no one can turn down that money but again what tangibly did his presence do for the program? Nothing. If you think getting players to the pros is a mark of good recruiting, OK; I don't. I look at the product on the court and we have put poor teams on the court IMO with Lavin's recruits. Last year we were decent but fell flat on our faces in crunch time. This year remains to be seen but the bottom line; I have not been impressed with Lavin's recruiting. Having good recruiting numbers for magazines and sending players to the pros mean nothing to me, building a consistent, sustainable program does. In that regard Lavin has not come close.

Let me add a hypothetical, if Lavin leaves after this year, and even if Jordan and Obekpa stay, is the program in as good a shape as when Roberts left? I would say no and Roberts left the program behind the 8 ball. Frankly, I don't see a way in the world Lavin succeeds here regardless of what we may do this year. I will root for SJU always and I hope if Lavin stays I am proven wrong but I just don't see a way.

I think this is silly. Norm left Lavin with 11 graduating players in one season (absolutely unheard of). If Lavin gets CO and Jordan back next season, and the new coach gets Stewart, Ali B, ADR, Balamou, Henderson, JDR, Jones, Samir Doughty (and womever Lav adds this class) and rest of the walkons, that is a fine well-balanced roster. Norm didn't even leave Lavin with decent walkons!

Jordan has two seasons of eligibility left. A 2016-2017 back court of Jordan-Stewart-Henderson-Balamou-Doughty looks pretty solid to me.

Uh, Lavin was left with an NCAA team; his successor (hypothetically), gets a handful of players who have never accomplished anything at the D1 level, a center with extremely limited skills, and a highly rated point guard who has had a very, very uneven start to his career. And frankly, when talking silly, your description of the above as a "fine well-balanced roster" gives a whole new definition to the word. IMO, that group would have trouble winning a game in the BE.

Agree but the only thing I would say is that, the team Lavin inherited hadn't accomplished anything either. So he wasn't necessarily left with an ncaa team.

Very fair and true comment.

And only a moron would believe that Norm Roberts would have that team in the NCAA's

I believe the discussion was on player's talent, not what Norm Roberts would have done with the group. And since Dunlap got them to the NCAA's they had NCAA talent. But then that would have been something any moron could have figured out.

 

[Marillac]

Unfortunately the carrot of NYC / MSG is over-rated and does not have the allure many on here like to think it has.. Otherwise why would the top HS kids chose places like Spokane, Lawrence, or heaven forbid, Storrs or Syracuse? To paraphrase Popeye, "We are what we are"...

The RIGHT coach maximizes the advantages of their locations, be it sleepy Storrs or sunny Gainesville. The best example and the best in the game is John Calipari. Whether it was Amherst or Memphis he got the players. Maybe players with an * but he got the players. He never let the lack of his conferences power ranking affect his recruiting success. His last 4 years at Memphis he went for 33 33, 38 and 33 wins. He earns over 8 million at UK with bonuses because he can get 10 high school all Americans. I think a guy earning 2 million should be good for at least 2 players in the bottom half of the top 100 every year. The results the last two years speak for themselves. He gets to the NCAA and is one and and does not reach the recruiting goals he is a gonner.

Agreed about the coach and ability to recruit. You must agree though, that Norm is a better recruiter selling Bill Self and Kansas, than SJU and Norm Roberts. Calipari can flat out sell, but SJU could win 4 championships in a row and never fork over $8 million a year to a coach. Lavin has done better than anyone in quite a while in terms of recruiting, but he did start 2011-2012 with an absolutely bankrupt roster. Still I'd agree that he's failed to bring in enough talent to offset any deficiencies he is as a strategist.

If you look at his whole body of work, I honestly do not think he's done such a stellar recruiting job. Yes he made a big splash initially, and he deserved a ton of credit for that, but that class never quite panned out. At that same time he turned away Ron Roberts who would have been a solid 4 year player for us. I'm not quite sure what happened with Polee and whether he was forced out, but there's another kid who would have been a serviceable 4 year player for us. He has failed to recruit a balanced roster in terms of players who compliment each other. He has not effectively spread out scholarships. He has failed to identify and recruit solid roll players and has grossly overestimated the abilities of kids like Hooper, Bourgault and now apparently Amar. He has not exactly ingratiated himself with the local high school and AAU coaches thus eliminating what has historically been our most effective pipeline. While its not my dime, he has traveled the country and the globe to find walk-ons and end of the bench type players. He has recruited kids with questionable academics without doing his due diligence(or ignoring the results) and without any kind of back-up plan. Other than his immediate predecessor, I would argue that he's actually done a worse recruiting job than any of our other coaches.

My point is, not to be overlooked is that instead of beginning his second year with 3-4 carryover players meriting playing time, Roberts left such an unbalanced roster that Lavin began year two with absolutely zero. To some extent, he is still crawling out of that hole now, and admittedly not filling that hole as quickly or with as much quality as needed to be a tourney team year in, year out.

Disagree wholeheartedly that Lavin is still affected by Roberts inbalance. He has been here 5 years, more than enough time to have this program in order. One could argue with me but I don't think he has recruited any better than Roberts did. On paper, yes, in reality, no.Harrison is obviously a better player than anyone Roberts recruited and personally I discount Harkless, not knocking him at all but his presence really did nothing to help the program. Hardy's senior year dwarfs anything Jordan has done and the rest of the players are basically a wash. Sampson made the pros and good for him but he was not an appreciably better college player than Brownlee, if he was at all. Again, Brownlee's senior year was certainly better than anything Sampson did. I do think it is only fair toI mention that Lavin is certainly recruiting in a more difficult situation given the demise of the BE but his recruiting over 5 years has been fair at best.

Actually, Hardy didn't have a great senior year. He had a great 10 game or so run. When he returned to earth, our post season chances were done. We were staggering to the gate long before Kennedy went down with a knee injury in the BET.

How could possibly discount an NBA one-and-done recruit as nothing to credit Lavin for? That makes no sense. Harrison may be better than anything Roberts recruited, but his NBA hopes are likely below that of Sampson and even Sanchez, and certainly below Obekpa and Jordan. So, right there you have 6 players that are better than anything Roberts recruited.

As Monte said above I couldn't care less who Lavin gets in the pros. Therefore I can easily discount Harkless who played one year on a losing team and went pro; he did nothing to advance the SJU program. I am not knocking him, that is the way the game is played now and no one can turn down that money but again what tangibly did his presence do for the program? Nothing. If you think getting players to the pros is a mark of good recruiting, OK; I don't. I look at the product on the court and we have put poor teams on the court IMO with Lavin's recruits. Last year we were decent but fell flat on our faces in crunch time. This year remains to be seen but the bottom line; I have not been impressed with Lavin's recruiting. Having good recruiting numbers for magazines and sending players to the pros mean nothing to me, building a consistent, sustainable program does. In that regard Lavin has not come close.

Let me add a hypothetical, if Lavin leaves after this year, and even if Jordan and Obekpa stay, is the program in as good a shape as when Roberts left? I would say no and Roberts left the program behind the 8 ball. Frankly, I don't see a way in the world Lavin succeeds here regardless of what we may do this year. I will root for SJU always and I hope if Lavin stays I am proven wrong but I just don't see a way.

I think this is silly. Norm left Lavin with 11 graduating players in one season (absolutely unheard of). If Lavin gets CO and Jordan back next season, and the new coach gets Stewart, Ali B, ADR, Balamou, Henderson, JDR, Jones, Samir Doughty (and womever Lav adds this class) and rest of the walkons, that is a fine well-balanced roster. Norm didn't even leave Lavin with decent walkons!

Jordan has two seasons of eligibility left. A 2016-2017 back court of Jordan-Stewart-Henderson-Balamou-Doughty looks pretty solid to me.

Uh, Lavin was left with an NCAA team; his successor (hypothetically), gets a handful of players who have never accomplished anything at the D1 level, a center with extremely limited skills, and a highly rated point guard who has had a very, very uneven start to his career. And frankly, when talking silly, your description of the above as a "fine well-balanced roster" gives a whole new definition to the word. IMO, that group would have trouble winning a game in the BE.

There you go again predicting the future. We have two kids on the NBA radar (in mock drafts)--one who has TWO YEARS of eligibility left AFTER this season. Norm never had that. The best two players that Norm left Lavin...Norm didn't even realize he had and picked them up the year before he left from JUCOs. Lavin can't add two impactful jucos this year?

Only a fool would think Norm would have made the tournament with that team. Norm was awful.

 

[1and1sju]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Who above us on that list has been equal or worse on the court? UTEP? South Carolina? That's about it.

Actually, over the last 15 years our record is more similar to teams ranked in the 80s... Seton Hall, Penn State, Georgia etc.
I don't see how we can complain about attendance until the program puts a good team on the court for 2 consecutive seasons.

 

[SI1996]

I wonder... how everyone has the time to write all these responses..some of them are 3 computer screens long and I have a 20 inch monitor. Between work, kids and checking out Lavin's latest wardrobe malfunction, I barely have time to SSS. Very jealous.

 

[Class of 72]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Your attached list proves that, with a few exceptions like Omaha and Milwaukee, your largest attendance will come in small college towns where the home team is the only game in town. In cities like New York, Miami, Los Angeles and Chicago you better have a nationally ranked team to sell out your arena.
Austour you are west coast guy. What has the attendance been like at the 14000 seat Pauley Pavilion after spending $135 million? Did they have more than 5400 fans for Azuza? The Bruins are the most storied basketball program in history yet on the list you attached they were near the bottom of the top 60, just a few spots above SJU. Miami has been very successful the past few years. Check out their attendance.
NYC is the toughest market in America. Given our crap record the fans should be applauded. Had Lavin delivered the players and had not crapped out last year attendance would have easily topped storied UCLA.

 

[beast of the east]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here is my take on the attendance. When it comes to a recruit, people on this board frequently use the argument that its NYC, and there is so much to do and see, and you will never be bored....and why would anyone want to go to Kentucky, where there is nothing to do. But then if fans do other things and enjoy the city, they are the worst fans in the world. I don't think you can have it both ways. You can't encourage a recruit to come here because there is so much to do outside of SJU basketball, and then put down the fans for do doing the same thing that we tell our recruits that they can do.

In the end its simple......win CONSISTENTLY, and people will show up.

No offense, but did you have to write 7 sentences when it's evident that if you win, people show up and when you don't, they don't

 

[OLV72]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Who above us on that list has been equal or worse on the court? UTEP? South Carolina? That's about it.

Actually, over the last 15 years our record is more similar to teams ranked in the 80s... Seton Hall, Penn State, Georgia etc.
I don't see how we can complain about attendance until the program puts a good team on the court for 2 consecutive seasons.

Desco, there are crappy programs that double us in average attendance. Look up the NCAA stats and check out Nebraska. We averaged over 10k before the 2003 disaster. Norm's teams never pulled us over the 6k range. Lavin brought it up to well over 8k a few years ago. In a city that prides itself on its interest in hoops it should not take 2 seasons to pull in fans. You guys that are staying away because of the let down at the end of last season are missing out on seeing this team play hard, tough and good ball.

 

[1and1sju]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Who above us on that list has been equal or worse on the court? UTEP? South Carolina? That's about it.

Actually, over the last 15 years our record is more similar to teams ranked in the 80s... Seton Hall, Penn State, Georgia etc.
I don't see how we can complain about attendance until the program puts a good team on the court for 2 consecutive seasons.

Desco, there are crappy programs that double us in average attendance. Look up the NCAA stats and check out Nebraska. We averaged over 10k before the 2003 disaster. Norm's teams never pulled us over the 6k range. Lavin brought it up to well over 8k a few years ago. In a city that prides itself on its interest in hoops it should not take 2 seasons to pull in fans. You guys that are staying away because of the let down at the end of last season are missing out on seeing this team play hard, tough and good ball.

I'm talking about the average student or basketball fan in nyc.
I have missed one game this season, I'm not staying away from anything.
I obviously think Lavin is a dope, but that won't stop me from going to games. And you're right, it doesn't reflect well that we can't draw as well as Nebraska on a regular basis. But that's how NY is. Look at the Mets attendance, or take a look at how many people show up for jets and Giants games the rest to this season...and those tickets are already paid for in many cases.

Sju has to win, just a little more consistently before it can complain about fan support.

 

[OLV72]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Who above us on that list has been equal or worse on the court? UTEP? South Carolina? That's about it.

Actually, over the last 15 years our record is more similar to teams ranked in the 80s... Seton Hall, Penn State, Georgia etc.
I don't see how we can complain about attendance until the program puts a good team on the court for 2 consecutive seasons.

Desco, there are crappy programs that double us in average attendance. Look up the NCAA stats and check out Nebraska. We averaged over 10k before the 2003 disaster. Norm's teams never pulled us over the 6k range. Lavin brought it up to well over 8k a few years ago. In a city that prides itself on its interest in hoops it should not take 2 seasons to pull in fans. You guys that are staying away because of the let down at the end of last season are missing out on seeing this team play hard, tough and good ball.

I'm talking about the average student or basketball fan in nyc.
I have missed one game this season, I'm not staying away from anything.
I obviously think Lavin is a dope, but that won't stop me from going to games. And you're right, it doesn't reflect well that we can't draw as well as Nebraska on a regular basis. But that's how NY is. Look at the Mets attendance, or take a look at how many people show up for jets and Giants games the rest to this season...and those tickets are already paid for in many cases.

Sju has to win, just a little more consistently before it can complain about fan support.

I don't hear anyone but a few posters complaining. Hoops writers did pick up on it. I would not blame the players or coaches for questioning it. I agree with you on the NY part of it. NY sports fans tend to stay home these days and let fans from out of town take their seats. It has been that way for a long time. It was cool at the Pitt game four years ago. That is the atmosphere we all want to see again.

 

[austour]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Your attached list proves that, with a few exceptions like Omaha and Milwaukee, your largest attendance will come in small college towns where the home team is the only game in town. In cities like New York, Miami, Los Angeles and Chicago you better have a nationally ranked team to sell out your arena.
Austour you are west coast guy. What has the attendance been like at the 14000 seat Pauley Pavilion after spending $135 million? Did they have more than 5400 fans for Azuza? The Bruins are the most storied basketball program in history yet on the list you attached they were near the bottom of the top 60, just a few spots above SJU. Miami has been very successful the past few years. Check out their attendance.
NYC is the toughest market in America. Given our crap record the fans should be applauded. Had Lavin delivered the players and had not crapped out last year attendance would have easily topped storied UCLA.

I understand what the reasons are and I agree with you on a lot of that. However it doesn't make it right, maybe I have a pollyanna idea of what it means to be a fan. I will also add that St Johns has one problem that most of these schools don't have. For most of its history it was a commuter school and therefore has a far less engaged alumni base then almost every other school on the list and that doesn't help, otherwise I'm sure you could get 7K of the hundreds of thousands of ST Johns alumni in the area to a game at CA. Even now it only houses 3,800 students or so on campus, this compares to over 11,000 on campus at UCLA. No excuse for UCLA. As one who attended every game I was in NY for at MSG from 1987-1997 even I didn't go to CA so I am being a bit hypocritical here too. Then again I'm not an alum and didn't even know where campus was until the late '80s when my sister went there for law school.

 

[beast of the east]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Who above us on that list has been equal or worse on the court? UTEP? South Carolina? That's about it.

Actually, over the last 15 years our record is more similar to teams ranked in the 80s... Seton Hall, Penn State, Georgia etc.
I don't see how we can complain about attendance until the program puts a good team on the court for 2 consecutive seasons.

Desco, there are crappy programs that double us in average attendance. Look up the NCAA stats and check out Nebraska. We averaged over 10k before the 2003 disaster. Norm's teams never pulled us over the 6k range. Lavin brought it up to well over 8k a few years ago. In a city that prides itself on its interest in hoops it should not take 2 seasons to pull in fans. You guys that are staying away because of the let down at the end of last season are missing out on seeing this team play hard, tough and good ball.

I'm talking about the average student or basketball fan in nyc.
I have missed one game this season, I'm not staying away from anything.
I obviously think Lavin is a dope, but that won't stop me from going to games. And you're right, it doesn't reflect well that we can't draw as well as Nebraska on a regular basis. But that's how NY is. Look at the Mets attendance, or take a look at how many people show up for jets and Giants games the rest to this season...and those tickets are already paid for in many cases.

Sju has to win, just a little more consistently before it can complain about fan support.

I don't hear anyone but a few posters complaining. Hoops writers did pick up on it. I would not blame the players or coaches for questioning it. I agree with you on the NY part of it. NY sports fans tend to stay home these days and let fans from out of town take their seats. It has been that way for a long time. It was cool at the Pitt game four years ago. That is the atmosphere we all want to see again.

I blame it on 55 inch TVs. You can see the game better than ever and not have to fight traffic.

 

[Section3]

M

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Who above us on that list has been equal or worse on the court? UTEP? South Carolina? That's about it.

Actually, over the last 15 years our record is more similar to teams ranked in the 80s... Seton Hall, Penn State, Georgia etc.
I don't see how we can complain about attendance until the program puts a good team on the court for 2 consecutive seasons.

Desco, there are crappy programs that double us in average attendance. Look up the NCAA stats and check out Nebraska. We averaged over 10k before the 2003 disaster. Norm's teams never pulled us over the 6k range. Lavin brought it up to well over 8k a few years ago. In a city that prides itself on its interest in hoops it should not take 2 seasons to pull in fans. You guys that are staying away because of the let down at the end of last season are missing out on seeing this team play hard, tough and good ball.

I'm talking about the average student or basketball fan in nyc.
I have missed one game this season, I'm not staying away from anything.
I obviously think Lavin is a dope, but that won't stop me from going to games. And you're right, it doesn't reflect well that we can't draw as well as Nebraska on a regular basis. But that's how NY is. Look at the Mets attendance, or take a look at how many people show up for jets and Giants games the rest to this season...and those tickets are already paid for in many cases.

Sju has to win, just a little more consistently before it can complain about fan support.

I don't hear anyone but a few posters complaining. Hoops writers did pick up on it. I would not blame the players or coaches for questioning it. I agree with you on the NY part of it. NY sports fans tend to stay home these days and let fans from out of town take their seats. It has been that way for a long time. It was cool at the Pitt game four years ago. That is the atmosphere we all want to see again.

I blame it on 55 inch TVs. You can see the game better than ever and not have to fight traffic.

For the average fan, I get it...For a season ticket holder or someone who considers themselves to be diehard fan, I don't get it...Unless you cannot afford it or have something else to do that nght, you shoud should do your best to make the games...Unlike professional sports, there is a link between fan support and recruiting

 

[Queens Quiet Skies]

Doc has raised some good points, some of which I wonder myself.

As one poster basically stated, Queens is not the heart of the City. Regardless of whether is is only an hour away by public transportation it is still travel time. We can complain about other towns not being NY and you would be right but it is not the town or city necessarily, part of it is the campus life and the fact that the location is a "College" town. You don't have to travel to find something to do and hang out with your peers every night without traveling to far or paying to travel if you do. St. John's does not have that same atmosphere on campus nor offer free regular shuttle service besides the one that runs to the Jamaica LIRR station during classes on weekdays, Sold out arenas with a fervent fan base even if in a smaller venue looks better than 1/3 filled MSG. MSG is still MSG but you don't have to go to St. John's to play there.

Yes there are more things for the fan base in NY to do, but that is only part of it. Winning and exciting basketball would go a long way of filling more seats. That also would help persuad some elite athletes who do see advantages of playing here to make the decision to so.

Another thing to consider is that there are 137 languages spoke in Queens, and probably a comparable number of nationalities represented. If you walk the campus you'll see this diversity reflected in the student body.

Its a safe bet that many young people in Queens just aren't into basketball. At least not like in the past. If you go to Flushing Meadows on a Sunday, even in winter, its soccer games all over the place. In summer you can't even move, because of the soccer crowds.

Its a minor part of the St. John's problem, but it shouldn't be overlooked. Trying to recruit players to the "mecca" and they might see empty basketball courts all over Queens.

 

[OLV72]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Who above us on that list has been equal or worse on the court? UTEP? South Carolina? That's about it.

Actually, over the last 15 years our record is more similar to teams ranked in the 80s... Seton Hall, Penn State, Georgia etc.
I don't see how we can complain about attendance until the program puts a good team on the court for 2 consecutive seasons.

Desco, there are crappy programs that double us in average attendance. Look up the NCAA stats and check out Nebraska. We averaged over 10k before the 2003 disaster. Norm's teams never pulled us over the 6k range. Lavin brought it up to well over 8k a few years ago. In a city that prides itself on its interest in hoops it should not take 2 seasons to pull in fans. You guys that are staying away because of the let down at the end of last season are missing out on seeing this team play hard, tough and good ball.

I'm talking about the average student or basketball fan in nyc.
I have missed one game this season, I'm not staying away from anything.
I obviously think Lavin is a dope, but that won't stop me from going to games. And you're right, it doesn't reflect well that we can't draw as well as Nebraska on a regular basis. But that's how NY is. Look at the Mets attendance, or take a look at how many people show up for jets and Giants games the rest to this season...and those tickets are already paid for in many cases.

Sju has to win, just a little more consistently before it can complain about fan support.

I don't hear anyone but a few posters complaining. Hoops writers did pick up on it. I would not blame the players or coaches for questioning it. I agree with you on the NY part of it. NY sports fans tend to stay home these days and let fans from out of town take their seats. It has been that way for a long time. It was cool at the Pitt game four years ago. That is the atmosphere we all want to see again.

I blame it on 55 inch TVs. You can see the game better than ever and not have to fight traffic.

Beast, I heard the same point when TV's had antennas. It is still a valid one.

So few Johnny fans (about 3k by my estimate) value the unique opportunity college sports brings to alumni and fans of a program. It is pretty cool to meet and get to know other fans and to celebrate the big victories with them. I've been fortunate to have seen great thoroughbreds like Ruffian and Forego walk on to the track and race. In my view nothing compares to that, but it was awesome being in MSG when SJU took down Pitt. It was special to walk out of MSG after the blow-out of Duke and run into Jayson Williams and receive his congratulations when he saw we were Johnny fans.

And as Mike Maher points out, the price of the storm saver is within reach of most family budgets.

I wonder why more fans of the Program don't show.

 

[GardenCity62]

Attracting fans to college basketball games in NYC with all its pro sport teams is never easy but I have always felt that the people in charge of selling tickets have never been aggressive enough.
All the games at CA have a couple of thousand empty seats. Why not push reduced tickets to local high school kids and offer group sales. Is anything like this done? The atmosphere at CA is worse than ever this year.

 

[mjmaherjr]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Who above us on that list has been equal or worse on the court? UTEP? South Carolina? That's about it.

Actually, over the last 15 years our record is more similar to teams ranked in the 80s... Seton Hall, Penn State, Georgia etc.
I don't see how we can complain about attendance until the program puts a good team on the court for 2 consecutive seasons.

Desco, there are crappy programs that double us in average attendance. Look up the NCAA stats and check out Nebraska. We averaged over 10k before the 2003 disaster. Norm's teams never pulled us over the 6k range. Lavin brought it up to well over 8k a few years ago. In a city that prides itself on its interest in hoops it should not take 2 seasons to pull in fans. You guys that are staying away because of the let down at the end of last season are missing out on seeing this team play hard, tough and good ball.

I'm talking about the average student or basketball fan in nyc.
I have missed one game this season, I'm not staying away from anything.
I obviously think Lavin is a dope, but that won't stop me from going to games. And you're right, it doesn't reflect well that we can't draw as well as Nebraska on a regular basis. But that's how NY is. Look at the Mets attendance, or take a look at how many people show up for jets and Giants games the rest to this season...and those tickets are already paid for in many cases.

Sju has to win, just a little more consistently before it can complain about fan support.

I don't hear anyone but a few posters complaining. Hoops writers did pick up on it. I would not blame the players or coaches for questioning it. I agree with you on the NY part of it. NY sports fans tend to stay home these days and let fans from out of town take their seats. It has been that way for a long time. It was cool at the Pitt game four years ago. That is the atmosphere we all want to see again.

I blame it on 55 inch TVs. You can see the game better than ever and not have to fight traffic.

Beast, I heard the same point when TV's had antennas. It is still a valid one.

So few Johnny fans (about 3k by my estimate) value the unique opportunity college sports brings to alumni and fans of a program. It is pretty cool to meet and get to know other fans and to celebrate the big victories with them. I've been fortunate to have seen great thoroughbreds like Ruffian and Forego walk on to the track and race..

i gotta go with you and Ralph to Belmont sometime next year