I Wonder Why?

[redfazed]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Who above us on that list has been equal or worse on the court? UTEP? South Carolina? That's about it.

Actually, over the last 15 years our record is more similar to teams ranked in the 80s... Seton Hall, Penn State, Georgia etc.
I don't see how we can complain about attendance until the program puts a good team on the court for 2 consecutive seasons.

Desco, there are crappy programs that double us in average attendance. Look up the NCAA stats and check out Nebraska. We averaged over 10k before the 2003 disaster. Norm's teams never pulled us over the 6k range. Lavin brought it up to well over 8k a few years ago. In a city that prides itself on its interest in hoops it should not take 2 seasons to pull in fans. You guys that are staying away because of the let down at the end of last season are missing out on seeing this team play hard, tough and good ball.

I'm talking about the average student or basketball fan in nyc.
I have missed one game this season, I'm not staying away from anything.
I obviously think Lavin is a dope, but that won't stop me from going to games. And you're right, it doesn't reflect well that we can't draw as well as Nebraska on a regular basis. But that's how NY is. Look at the Mets attendance, or take a look at how many people show up for jets and Giants games the rest to this season...and those tickets are already paid for in many cases.

Sju has to win, just a little more consistently before it can complain about fan support.

I don't hear anyone but a few posters complaining. Hoops writers did pick up on it. I would not blame the players or coaches for questioning it. I agree with you on the NY part of it. NY sports fans tend to stay home these days and let fans from out of town take their seats. It has been that way for a long time. It was cool at the Pitt game four years ago. That is the atmosphere we all want to see again.

I blame it on 55 inch TVs. You can see the game better than ever and not have to fight traffic.

Beast, I heard the same point when TV's had antennas. It is still a valid one.

So few Johnny fans (about 3k by my estimate) value the unique opportunity college sports brings to alumni and fans of a program. It is pretty cool to meet and get to know other fans and to celebrate the big victories with them. I've been fortunate to have seen great thoroughbreds like Ruffian and Forego walk on to the track and race. In my view nothing compares to that, but it was awesome being in MSG when SJU took down Pitt. It was special to walk out of MSG after the blow-out of Duke and run into Jayson Williams and receive his congratulations when he saw we were Johnny fans.

And as Mike Maher points out, the price of the storm saver is within reach of most family budgets.

I wonder why more fans of the Program don't show.

For fans to come out in big numbers to support an underperforming program, the coaching staff and players have to be a team that you "want to root for." And the situation right now at SJU is that Lavin, rightly or wrongly, is a highly polarizing figure. And for that matter, so are several of the players. You have Dom Pointer, who slugged a Notre Dame player at Notre Dame, on senior night. People remember that. You have Obekpa, who refused to go back into that pivotal Providence game and then announced that he was leaving the program. People remember that too. You have Jordan, who has already been suspended and has declared himself to be going pro after this season. I get that they are young and make mistakes. I hope they redeem themselves and win this year, I really do. But the fact that the alumni base isn't coming out in big numbers for this particular team and coaching staff is hardly shocking, IMO.

 

[beast of the east]

Doc has raised some good points, some of which I wonder myself.

As one poster basically stated, Queens is not the heart of the City. Regardless of whether is is only an hour away by public transportation it is still travel time. We can complain about other towns not being NY and you would be right but it is not the town or city necessarily, part of it is the campus life and the fact that the location is a "College" town. You don't have to travel to find something to do and hang out with your peers every night without traveling to far or paying to travel if you do. St. John's does not have that same atmosphere on campus nor offer free regular shuttle service besides the one that runs to the Jamaica LIRR station during classes on weekdays, Sold out arenas with a fervent fan base even if in a smaller venue looks better than 1/3 filled MSG. MSG is still MSG but you don't have to go to St. John's to play there.

Yes there are more things for the fan base in NY to do, but that is only part of it. Winning and exciting basketball would go a long way of filling more seats. That also would help persuad some elite athletes who do see advantages of playing here to make the decision to so.

Another thing to consider is that there are 137 languages spoke in Queens, and probably a comparable number of nationalities represented. If you walk the campus you'll see this diversity reflected in the student body.

Its a safe bet that many young people in Queens just aren't into basketball. At least not like in the past. If you go to Flushing Meadows on a Sunday, even in winter, its soccer games all over the place. In summer you can't even move, because of the soccer crowds.

Its a minor part of the St. John's problem, but it shouldn't be overlooked. Trying to recruit players to the "mecca" and they might see empty basketball courts all over Queens.

Is English one of those languages? Just asking.

 

[TX Redman]

.[/quote]

Is English one of those languages? Just asking.[/quote]

Si

 

[OLV72]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Who above us on that list has been equal or worse on the court? UTEP? South Carolina? That's about it.

Actually, over the last 15 years our record is more similar to teams ranked in the 80s... Seton Hall, Penn State, Georgia etc.
I don't see how we can complain about attendance until the program puts a good team on the court for 2 consecutive seasons.

Desco, there are crappy programs that double us in average attendance. Look up the NCAA stats and check out Nebraska. We averaged over 10k before the 2003 disaster. Norm's teams never pulled us over the 6k range. Lavin brought it up to well over 8k a few years ago. In a city that prides itself on its interest in hoops it should not take 2 seasons to pull in fans. You guys that are staying away because of the let down at the end of last season are missing out on seeing this team play hard, tough and good ball.

I'm talking about the average student or basketball fan in nyc.
I have missed one game this season, I'm not staying away from anything.
I obviously think Lavin is a dope, but that won't stop me from going to games. And you're right, it doesn't reflect well that we can't draw as well as Nebraska on a regular basis. But that's how NY is. Look at the Mets attendance, or take a look at how many people show up for jets and Giants games the rest to this season...and those tickets are already paid for in many cases.

Sju has to win, just a little more consistently before it can complain about fan support.

I don't hear anyone but a few posters complaining. Hoops writers did pick up on it. I would not blame the players or coaches for questioning it. I agree with you on the NY part of it. NY sports fans tend to stay home these days and let fans from out of town take their seats. It has been that way for a long time. It was cool at the Pitt game four years ago. That is the atmosphere we all want to see again.

I blame it on 55 inch TVs. You can see the game better than ever and not have to fight traffic.

Beast, I heard the same point when TV's had antennas. It is still a valid one.

So few Johnny fans (about 3k by my estimate) value the unique opportunity college sports brings to alumni and fans of a program. It is pretty cool to meet and get to know other fans and to celebrate the big victories with them. I've been fortunate to have seen great thoroughbreds like Ruffian and Forego walk on to the track and race. In my view nothing compares to that, but it was awesome being in MSG when SJU took down Pitt. It was special to walk out of MSG after the blow-out of Duke and run into Jayson Williams and receive his congratulations when he saw we were Johnny fans.

And as Mike Maher points out, the price of the storm saver is within reach of most family budgets.

I wonder why more fans of the Program don't show.

For fans to come out in big numbers to support an underperforming program, the coaching staff and players have to be a team that you "want to root for." And the situation right now at SJU is that Lavin, rightly or wrongly, is a highly polarizing figure. And for that matter, so are several of the players. You have Dom Pointer, who slugged a Notre Dame player at Notre Dame, on senior night. People remember that. You have Obekpa, who refused to go back into that pivotal Providence game and then announced that he was leaving the program. People remember that too. You have Jordan, who has already been suspended and has declared himself to be going pro after this season. I get that they are young and make mistakes. I hope they redeem themselves and win this year, I really do. But the fact that the alumni base isn't coming out in big numbers for this particular team and coaching staff is hardly shocking, IMO.

Simmons, Lavin is a polarizing figure in your mind and in the mind of about a dozen guys on these sites. To the rest of us, he's a highly paid coach who has underperformed the past two seasons.

All programs have the same examples of team issues that you listed and they still retain a higher rate of attendance at their games. PC has a kid on their roster who was suspended from the team last season amid rape allegations. We have five seniors graduating a semester early who have handled themselves very well off the court. The UND kid who initiated the shoving match two seasons ago with Pointer did not make it to his second year at the school. On the other hand, Pointer got booed by our fans at CA in the last game last season and showed character by rising above it.

I do agree that if you hate the coach it is difficult to pull for the team to be successful. I just don't think there are a lot of us that hate on the coach.

 

[OLV72]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Who above us on that list has been equal or worse on the court? UTEP? South Carolina? That's about it.

Actually, over the last 15 years our record is more similar to teams ranked in the 80s... Seton Hall, Penn State, Georgia etc.
I don't see how we can complain about attendance until the program puts a good team on the court for 2 consecutive seasons.

Desco, there are crappy programs that double us in average attendance. Look up the NCAA stats and check out Nebraska. We averaged over 10k before the 2003 disaster. Norm's teams never pulled us over the 6k range. Lavin brought it up to well over 8k a few years ago. In a city that prides itself on its interest in hoops it should not take 2 seasons to pull in fans. You guys that are staying away because of the let down at the end of last season are missing out on seeing this team play hard, tough and good ball.

I'm talking about the average student or basketball fan in nyc.
I have missed one game this season, I'm not staying away from anything.
I obviously think Lavin is a dope, but that won't stop me from going to games. And you're right, it doesn't reflect well that we can't draw as well as Nebraska on a regular basis. But that's how NY is. Look at the Mets attendance, or take a look at how many people show up for jets and Giants games the rest to this season...and those tickets are already paid for in many cases.

Sju has to win, just a little more consistently before it can complain about fan support.

I don't hear anyone but a few posters complaining. Hoops writers did pick up on it. I would not blame the players or coaches for questioning it. I agree with you on the NY part of it. NY sports fans tend to stay home these days and let fans from out of town take their seats. It has been that way for a long time. It was cool at the Pitt game four years ago. That is the atmosphere we all want to see again.

I blame it on 55 inch TVs. You can see the game better than ever and not have to fight traffic.

Beast, I heard the same point when TV's had antennas. It is still a valid one.

So few Johnny fans (about 3k by my estimate) value the unique opportunity college sports brings to alumni and fans of a program. It is pretty cool to meet and get to know other fans and to celebrate the big victories with them. I've been fortunate to have seen great thoroughbreds like Ruffian and Forego walk on to the track and race..

i gotta go with you and Ralph to Belmont sometime next year

Sounds like a section 114 outing. Just don't bet with Ralph if you want to keep some of your money.

 

[redfazed]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Who above us on that list has been equal or worse on the court? UTEP? South Carolina? That's about it.

Actually, over the last 15 years our record is more similar to teams ranked in the 80s... Seton Hall, Penn State, Georgia etc.
I don't see how we can complain about attendance until the program puts a good team on the court for 2 consecutive seasons.

Desco, there are crappy programs that double us in average attendance. Look up the NCAA stats and check out Nebraska. We averaged over 10k before the 2003 disaster. Norm's teams never pulled us over the 6k range. Lavin brought it up to well over 8k a few years ago. In a city that prides itself on its interest in hoops it should not take 2 seasons to pull in fans. You guys that are staying away because of the let down at the end of last season are missing out on seeing this team play hard, tough and good ball.

I'm talking about the average student or basketball fan in nyc.
I have missed one game this season, I'm not staying away from anything.
I obviously think Lavin is a dope, but that won't stop me from going to games. And you're right, it doesn't reflect well that we can't draw as well as Nebraska on a regular basis. But that's how NY is. Look at the Mets attendance, or take a look at how many people show up for jets and Giants games the rest to this season...and those tickets are already paid for in many cases.

Sju has to win, just a little more consistently before it can complain about fan support.

I don't hear anyone but a few posters complaining. Hoops writers did pick up on it. I would not blame the players or coaches for questioning it. I agree with you on the NY part of it. NY sports fans tend to stay home these days and let fans from out of town take their seats. It has been that way for a long time. It was cool at the Pitt game four years ago. That is the atmosphere we all want to see again.

I blame it on 55 inch TVs. You can see the game better than ever and not have to fight traffic.

Beast, I heard the same point when TV's had antennas. It is still a valid one.

So few Johnny fans (about 3k by my estimate) value the unique opportunity college sports brings to alumni and fans of a program. It is pretty cool to meet and get to know other fans and to celebrate the big victories with them. I've been fortunate to have seen great thoroughbreds like Ruffian and Forego walk on to the track and race. In my view nothing compares to that, but it was awesome being in MSG when SJU took down Pitt. It was special to walk out of MSG after the blow-out of Duke and run into Jayson Williams and receive his congratulations when he saw we were Johnny fans.

And as Mike Maher points out, the price of the storm saver is within reach of most family budgets.

I wonder why more fans of the Program don't show.

For fans to come out in big numbers to support an underperforming program, the coaching staff and players have to be a team that you "want to root for." And the situation right now at SJU is that Lavin, rightly or wrongly, is a highly polarizing figure. And for that matter, so are several of the players. You have Dom Pointer, who slugged a Notre Dame player at Notre Dame, on senior night. People remember that. You have Obekpa, who refused to go back into that pivotal Providence game and then announced that he was leaving the program. People remember that too. You have Jordan, who has already been suspended and has declared himself to be going pro after this season. I get that they are young and make mistakes. I hope they redeem themselves and win this year, I really do. But the fact that the alumni base isn't coming out in big numbers for this particular team and coaching staff is hardly shocking, IMO.

Simmons, Lavin is a polarizing figure in your mind and in the mind of about a dozen guys on these sites. To the rest of us, he's a highly paid coach who has underperformed the past two seasons.

All programs have the same examples of team issues that you listed and they still retain a higher rate of attendance at their games. PC has a kid on their roster who was suspended from the team last season amid rape allegations. We have five seniors graduating a semester early who have handled themselves very well off the court. The UND kid who initiated the shoving match two seasons ago with Pointer did not make it to his second year at the school. On the other hand, Pointer got booed by our fans at CA in the last game last season and showed character by rising above it.

I do agree that if you hate the coach it is difficult to pull for the team to be successful. I just don't think there are a lot of us that hate on the coach.

OLV, again --it's not just the coach and it's not just Pointer. Two of our top 3 players are a junior who threatened to leave and a sophmore who has made it clear that he wants to leave in March. It's just too easy for you to blame the "Lavin haters" for the lack of fan enthusiasm.

 

[1and1sju]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Who above us on that list has been equal or worse on the court? UTEP? South Carolina? That's about it.

Actually, over the last 15 years our record is more similar to teams ranked in the 80s... Seton Hall, Penn State, Georgia etc.
I don't see how we can complain about attendance until the program puts a good team on the court for 2 consecutive seasons.

Desco, there are crappy programs that double us in average attendance. Look up the NCAA stats and check out Nebraska. We averaged over 10k before the 2003 disaster. Norm's teams never pulled us over the 6k range. Lavin brought it up to well over 8k a few years ago. In a city that prides itself on its interest in hoops it should not take 2 seasons to pull in fans. You guys that are staying away because of the let down at the end of last season are missing out on seeing this team play hard, tough and good ball.

I'm talking about the average student or basketball fan in nyc.
I have missed one game this season, I'm not staying away from anything.
I obviously think Lavin is a dope, but that won't stop me from going to games. And you're right, it doesn't reflect well that we can't draw as well as Nebraska on a regular basis. But that's how NY is. Look at the Mets attendance, or take a look at how many people show up for jets and Giants games the rest to this season...and those tickets are already paid for in many cases.

Sju has to win, just a little more consistently before it can complain about fan support.

I don't hear anyone but a few posters complaining. Hoops writers did pick up on it. I would not blame the players or coaches for questioning it. I agree with you on the NY part of it. NY sports fans tend to stay home these days and let fans from out of town take their seats. It has been that way for a long time. It was cool at the Pitt game four years ago. That is the atmosphere we all want to see again.

I blame it on 55 inch TVs. You can see the game better than ever and not have to fight traffic.

Beast, I heard the same point when TV's had antennas. It is still a valid one.

So few Johnny fans (about 3k by my estimate) value the unique opportunity college sports brings to alumni and fans of a program. It is pretty cool to meet and get to know other fans and to celebrate the big victories with them. I've been fortunate to have seen great thoroughbreds like Ruffian and Forego walk on to the track and race. In my view nothing compares to that, but it was awesome being in MSG when SJU took down Pitt. It was special to walk out of MSG after the blow-out of Duke and run into Jayson Williams and receive his congratulations when he saw we were Johnny fans.

And as Mike Maher points out, the price of the storm saver is within reach of most family budgets.

I wonder why more fans of the Program don't show.

For fans to come out in big numbers to support an underperforming program, the coaching staff and players have to be a team that you "want to root for." And the situation right now at SJU is that Lavin, rightly or wrongly, is a highly polarizing figure. And for that matter, so are several of the players. You have Dom Pointer, who slugged a Notre Dame player at Notre Dame, on senior night. People remember that. You have Obekpa, who refused to go back into that pivotal Providence game and then announced that he was leaving the program. People remember that too. You have Jordan, who has already been suspended and has declared himself to be going pro after this season. I get that they are young and make mistakes. I hope they redeem themselves and win this year, I really do. But the fact that the alumni base isn't coming out in big numbers for this particular team and coaching staff is hardly shocking, IMO.

Simmons, Lavin is a polarizing figure in your mind and in the mind of about a dozen guys on these sites. To the rest of us, he's a highly paid coach who has underperformed the past two seasons.

All programs have the same examples of team issues that you listed and they still retain a higher rate of attendance at their games. PC has a kid on their roster who was suspended from the team last season amid rape allegations. We have five seniors graduating a semester early who have handled themselves very well off the court. The UND kid who initiated the shoving match two seasons ago with Pointer did not make it to his second year at the school. On the other hand, Pointer got booed by our fans at CA in the last game last season and showed character by rising above it.

I do agree that if you hate the coach it is difficult to pull for the team to be successful. I just don't think there are a lot of us that hate on the coach.

It's more than just Simmons Monte Otis and myself.
I did a poll on the other board last season and I think 70% wanted someone else coaching the team. And that was last season, I have no doubt that that percentage has only increased since then.

Also there's a difference between wanting Lavin to be replaced and being a hater. I'm admittedly in the later group because I think he's disingenuous and intentionally blows hot air, which shows a lack of respect for this university. But not everyone who wants him fired is a hater. And of course the tie thing, but I digress.

 

[OLV72]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Who above us on that list has been equal or worse on the court? UTEP? South Carolina? That's about it.

Actually, over the last 15 years our record is more similar to teams ranked in the 80s... Seton Hall, Penn State, Georgia etc.
I don't see how we can complain about attendance until the program puts a good team on the court for 2 consecutive seasons.

Desco, there are crappy programs that double us in average attendance. Look up the NCAA stats and check out Nebraska. We averaged over 10k before the 2003 disaster. Norm's teams never pulled us over the 6k range. Lavin brought it up to well over 8k a few years ago. In a city that prides itself on its interest in hoops it should not take 2 seasons to pull in fans. You guys that are staying away because of the let down at the end of last season are missing out on seeing this team play hard, tough and good ball.

I'm talking about the average student or basketball fan in nyc.
I have missed one game this season, I'm not staying away from anything.
I obviously think Lavin is a dope, but that won't stop me from going to games. And you're right, it doesn't reflect well that we can't draw as well as Nebraska on a regular basis. But that's how NY is. Look at the Mets attendance, or take a look at how many people show up for jets and Giants games the rest to this season...and those tickets are already paid for in many cases.

Sju has to win, just a little more consistently before it can complain about fan support.

I don't hear anyone but a few posters complaining. Hoops writers did pick up on it. I would not blame the players or coaches for questioning it. I agree with you on the NY part of it. NY sports fans tend to stay home these days and let fans from out of town take their seats. It has been that way for a long time. It was cool at the Pitt game four years ago. That is the atmosphere we all want to see again.

I blame it on 55 inch TVs. You can see the game better than ever and not have to fight traffic.

Beast, I heard the same point when TV's had antennas. It is still a valid one.

So few Johnny fans (about 3k by my estimate) value the unique opportunity college sports brings to alumni and fans of a program. It is pretty cool to meet and get to know other fans and to celebrate the big victories with them. I've been fortunate to have seen great thoroughbreds like Ruffian and Forego walk on to the track and race. In my view nothing compares to that, but it was awesome being in MSG when SJU took down Pitt. It was special to walk out of MSG after the blow-out of Duke and run into Jayson Williams and receive his congratulations when he saw we were Johnny fans.

And as Mike Maher points out, the price of the storm saver is within reach of most family budgets.

I wonder why more fans of the Program don't show.

For fans to come out in big numbers to support an underperforming program, the coaching staff and players have to be a team that you "want to root for." And the situation right now at SJU is that Lavin, rightly or wrongly, is a highly polarizing figure. And for that matter, so are several of the players. You have Dom Pointer, who slugged a Notre Dame player at Notre Dame, on senior night. People remember that. You have Obekpa, who refused to go back into that pivotal Providence game and then announced that he was leaving the program. People remember that too. You have Jordan, who has already been suspended and has declared himself to be going pro after this season. I get that they are young and make mistakes. I hope they redeem themselves and win this year, I really do. But the fact that the alumni base isn't coming out in big numbers for this particular team and coaching staff is hardly shocking, IMO.

Simmons, Lavin is a polarizing figure in your mind and in the mind of about a dozen guys on these sites. To the rest of us, he's a highly paid coach who has underperformed the past two seasons.

All programs have the same examples of team issues that you listed and they still retain a higher rate of attendance at their games. PC has a kid on their roster who was suspended from the team last season amid rape allegations. We have five seniors graduating a semester early who have handled themselves very well off the court. The UND kid who initiated the shoving match two seasons ago with Pointer did not make it to his second year at the school. On the other hand, Pointer got booed by our fans at CA in the last game last season and showed character by rising above it.

I do agree that if you hate the coach it is difficult to pull for the team to be successful. I just don't think there are a lot of us that hate on the coach.

It's more than just Simmons Monte Otis and myself.
I did a poll on the other board last season and I think 70% wanted someone else coaching the team. And that was last season, I have no doubt that that percentage has only increased since then.

Also there's a difference between wanting Lavin to be replaced and being a hater. I'm admittedly in the later group because I think he's disingenuous and intentionally blows hot air, which shows a lack of respect for this university. But not everyone who wants him fired is a hater. And of course the tie thing, but I digress.

Desco, I give you credit for admitting it. If the poll was done after the Robert Morris game it would have been 100%. If the team does not exceed expectations and land in the top twenty I think he should resign or be forced out and I don't detest the guy. I am rooting for him and the team to deliver us from purgatory. If he can't do that at close to $2MM per year, he's finished.

By the way...every coach is disingenuous and intentionally blows hot air. All of them do that well. The lack of respect for the university is unusual, but I don't see him as guilty on that count.

 

[docbutler]

I wonder why people on this board still insist that they know more about the game of basketball than our coaching staff.....

I wonder why people here consider themselves the next coming of John Wooden......

I sure hope that attempting to put me down makes you feel better about yourself, Peanut Boy. I wonder why there are people like you, who have no other way to express their jealousy and insecurities. Why don't you start by stating an idea of your own...or do you have to be a professional coach to know something about this game.?

You want me to start by stating an idea of my own? I won't, and there is a reason for it. There isn't an idea that I could come up with that our coaching staff hasn't already thought of.

While your ideas and suggestions may make sense, they are not new ideas. You made it sound like you were the first person ever to come up with these ideas. I'm really sorry, but you weren't.

With all of the years and experience that our coaching staff has, I promise you that whatever thought you may have, they have already thought of. Or whatever criticism you have about one of the players, they have already noticed it.

You can sit there and wonder why we do this or why we don't do that......but at the end of the day, the coaching staff has their reasons for why we do this or don't do that, and their reasoning is a lot more justified than any poster's opinion on this site.[/quote]

Mr. Peanuts...I express my thoughts and ideas here as my own. Are you telling me not to bother, because it's all been said or thought of before? If you find my posts redundant, than I can only suggest that you avoid reading them. I share my basketball knowledge for free for anyone who cares to pay attention. I don't feel I owe an apology to you for commenting on this site. I thought that is what we all come here for. Some people, like yourself, are not happy unless they are belittling others. In any event, your very loyal confidence in the coaching staff of St. John's is commendable....if not totally foolish. Steve Lavin is a basket case. Recruits know it, opposing coaches know it, the media knows it, and most of the fan base know it. He has totally lost his grip on recruiting (his supposed # 1 strength)...and his understanding of the on-court chemistry at any time, in any game, is pathetic. This obvious inability trumps the credibility that you so readily extend to him for years of experience. Heck, I've been seriously following basketball for longer than this guy has been alive. There are probably 25 guys, right on this board, who understand the game better. I'm amazed that you are naive enough to believe that professional means infallible. Steve Lavin lacks a strong basketball I.Q. People in the know are aware of this. Where does that leave you?

 

[docbutler]

I wonder why people on this board still insist that they know more about the game of basketball than our coaching staff.....

I wonder why people here consider themselves the next coming of John Wooden......

I sure hope that attempting to put me down makes you feel better about yourself, Peanut Boy. I wonder why there are people like you, who have no other way to express their jealousy and insecurities. Why don't you start by stating an idea of your own...or do you have to be a professional coach to know something about this game.?

You want me to start by stating an idea of my own? I won't, and there is a reason for it. There isn't an idea that I could come up with that our coaching staff hasn't already thought of.

While your ideas and suggestions may make sense, they are not new ideas. You made it sound like you were the first person ever to come up with these ideas. I'm really sorry, but you weren't.

With all of the years and experience that our coaching staff has, I promise you that whatever thought you may have, they have already thought of. Or whatever criticism you have about one of the players, they have already noticed it.

You can sit there and wonder why we do this or why we don't do that......but at the end of the day, the coaching staff has their reasons for why we do this or don't do that, and their reasoning is a lot more justified than any poster's opinion on this site.

THIS. IS. SUCH. BALONEY.

doc and peanut, you are both ridiculously misguided. There are some very knowledgeable basketball-people on this board and in the stands at SJU games. Former NBA officials, HS coaches, D1 players, and yes..college coaches and former coaches. But their credentials are besides the point; you don't need to be anything more than a ballplayer or former coach at any level above middle school to see some of the errors that are made by this staff. A staff that is far from above reproach.
Lets be clear; Lavin was out of coaching for nearly a decade, and when he came back dunlap ran practices. Hines is a trainer. He was never a basketball coach until he got this job, and the same for Darrick martin, he was a front office guy after he retired.
Whitesell comes from good stock apparently, but you have to wonder how much of a leash he is given, considering Lavin told Dunlap he didn't want him back, presumably because he had issues giving up too much control.

The second, and equally important point, is that you don't need to know every bit of minutia about a position's job tasks to make a decision about personnel. You vote for president don't you? Have you ever managed a war or written a federal budget?
You choose characteristics and policy tests that guide your decisision. It's no different here. Fans don't need to be experts to know the program needs a change of leadership.[/quote]

Desco...Can you tell me why you are targeting me as misguided, when you chose to make the exact same point that I made in my original post for this thread?

 

[monte]

I wonder why people on this board still insist that they know more about the game of basketball than our coaching staff.....

I wonder why people here consider themselves the next coming of John Wooden......

I sure hope that attempting to put me down makes you feel better about yourself, Peanut Boy. I wonder why there are people like you, who have no other way to express their jealousy and insecurities. Why don't you start by stating an idea of your own...or do you have to be a professional coach to know something about this game.?

You want me to start by stating an idea of my own? I won't, and there is a reason for it. There isn't an idea that I could come up with that our coaching staff hasn't already thought of.

While your ideas and suggestions may make sense, they are not new ideas. You made it sound like you were the first person ever to come up with these ideas. I'm really sorry, but you weren't.

With all of the years and experience that our coaching staff has, I promise you that whatever thought you may have, they have already thought of. Or whatever criticism you have about one of the players, they have already noticed it.

You can sit there and wonder why we do this or why we don't do that......but at the end of the day, the coaching staff has their reasons for why we do this or don't do that, and their reasoning is a lot more justified than any poster's opinion on this site.

Mr. Peanuts...I express my thoughts and ideas here as my own. Are you telling me not to bother, because it's all been said or thought of before? If you find my posts redundant, than I can only suggest that you avoid reading them. I share my basketball knowledge for free for anyone who cares to pay attention. I don't feel I owe an apology to you for commenting on this site. I thought that is what we all come here for. Some people, like yourself, are not happy unless they are belittling others. In any event, your very loyal confidence in the coaching staff of St. John's is commendable....if not totally foolish. Steve Lavin is a basket case. Recruits know it, opposing coaches know it, the media knows it, and most of the fan base know it. He has totally lost his grip on recruiting (his supposed # 1 strength)...and his understanding of the on-court chemistry at any time, in any game, is pathetic. This obvious inability trumps the credibility that you so readily extend to him for years of experience. Heck, I've been seriously following basketball for longer than this guy has been alive. There are probably 25 guys, right on this board, who understand the game better. I'm amazed that you are naive enough to believe that professional means infallible. Steve Lavin lacks a strong basketball I.Q. People in the know are aware of this. Where does that leave you?[/quote]

Doc would you mind telling us what you really think about Lavin?

 

[bamafan]

Doc, Desco called you misguided because in this particular case he is misguided.

 

[Class of 72]

I wonder why people on this board still insist that they know more about the game of basketball than our coaching staff.....

I wonder why people here consider themselves the next coming of John Wooden......

I sure hope that attempting to put me down makes you feel better about yourself, Peanut Boy. I wonder why there are people like you, who have no other way to express their jealousy and insecurities. Why don't you start by stating an idea of your own...or do you have to be a professional coach to know something about this game.?

You want me to start by stating an idea of my own? I won't, and there is a reason for it. There isn't an idea that I could come up with that our coaching staff hasn't already thought of.

While your ideas and suggestions may make sense, they are not new ideas. You made it sound like you were the first person ever to come up with these ideas. I'm really sorry, but you weren't.

With all of the years and experience that our coaching staff has, I promise you that whatever thought you may have, they have already thought of. Or whatever criticism you have about one of the players, they have already noticed it.

You can sit there and wonder why we do this or why we don't do that......but at the end of the day, the coaching staff has their reasons for why we do this or don't do that, and their reasoning is a lot more justified than any poster's opinion on this site.

Mr. Peanuts...I express my thoughts and ideas here as my own. Are you telling me not to bother, because it's all been said or thought of before? If you find my posts redundant, than I can only suggest that you avoid reading them. I share my basketball knowledge for free for anyone who cares to pay attention. I don't feel I owe an apology to you for commenting on this site. I thought that is what we all come here for. Some people, like yourself, are not happy unless they are belittling others. In any event, your very loyal confidence in the coaching staff of St. John's is commendable....if not totally foolish. Steve Lavin is a basket case. Recruits know it, opposing coaches know it, the media knows it, and most of the fan base know it. He has totally lost his grip on recruiting (his supposed # 1 strength)...and his understanding of the on-court chemistry at any time, in any game, is pathetic. This obvious inability trumps the credibility that you so readily extend to him for years of experience. Heck, I've been seriously following basketball for longer than this guy has been alive. There are probably 25 guys, right on this board, who understand the game better. I'm amazed that you are naive enough to believe that professional means infallible. Steve Lavin lacks a strong basketball I.Q. People in the know are aware of this. Where does that leave you?

Doc would you mind telling us what you really think about Lavin? [/quote]

Doc's reply should have begun with a more musical intro such as......I wonder, wonder, wonder, wonder WHO, who wrote the book on Lav!
Chapter one ...he's a dummy...
Chapter two... he's a ditz....

 

[SigEpSJU09]

I'm SJU class of 2009 so i know what you mean as far as the diversity is concern, but the bottom line is we have to win. Guarantee if Calipari would of came to SJU we would have Carnescca packed out and at least have the garden almost full. Winning brings people out whether the like the game of basketball or not.

 

[fun]

I'm SJU class of 2009

if Calipari would of came to SJU

English, summa cum laude

 

[jumbo_peanuts]

I wonder why people on this board still insist that they know more about the game of basketball than our coaching staff.....

I wonder why people here consider themselves the next coming of John Wooden......

I sure hope that attempting to put me down makes you feel better about yourself, Peanut Boy. I wonder why there are people like you, who have no other way to express their jealousy and insecurities. Why don't you start by stating an idea of your own...or do you have to be a professional coach to know something about this game.?

You want me to start by stating an idea of my own? I won't, and there is a reason for it. There isn't an idea that I could come up with that our coaching staff hasn't already thought of.

While your ideas and suggestions may make sense, they are not new ideas. You made it sound like you were the first person ever to come up with these ideas. I'm really sorry, but you weren't.

With all of the years and experience that our coaching staff has, I promise you that whatever thought you may have, they have already thought of. Or whatever criticism you have about one of the players, they have already noticed it.

You can sit there and wonder why we do this or why we don't do that......but at the end of the day, the coaching staff has their reasons for why we do this or don't do that, and their reasoning is a lot more justified than any poster's opinion on this site.

Mr. Peanuts...I express my thoughts and ideas here as my own. Are you telling me not to bother, because it's all been said or thought of before? If you find my posts redundant, than I can only suggest that you avoid reading them. I share my basketball knowledge for free for anyone who cares to pay attention. I don't feel I owe an apology to you for commenting on this site. I thought that is what we all come here for. Some people, like yourself, are not happy unless they are belittling others. In any event, your very loyal confidence in the coaching staff of St. John's is commendable....if not totally foolish. Steve Lavin is a basket case. Recruits know it, opposing coaches know it, the media knows it, and most of the fan base know it. He has totally lost his grip on recruiting (his supposed # 1 strength)...and his understanding of the on-court chemistry at any time, in any game, is pathetic. This obvious inability trumps the credibility that you so readily extend to him for years of experience. Heck, I've been seriously following basketball for longer than this guy has been alive. There are probably 25 guys, right on this board, who understand the game better. I'm amazed that you are naive enough to believe that professional means infallible. Steve Lavin lacks a strong basketball I.Q. People in the know are aware of this. Where does that leave you?[/quote]

So what D1 school have you been the head coach at? There is a reason why Lavin is the head coach, and you are posting on a fan board....

I'm not saying that you don't understand the game of basketball...as I believe that you do.
It's just laughable to think that you know more than this coaching staff.....

 

[Class of 72]

I'm SJU class of 2009

if Calipari would of came to SJU

English, summa cum laude

The kid is more of a " mama cum louder" than summa cum laude.

 

[1and1sju]

I wonder why people on this board still insist that they know more about the game of basketball than our coaching staff.....

I wonder why people here consider themselves the next coming of John Wooden......

I sure hope that attempting to put me down makes you feel better about yourself, Peanut Boy. I wonder why there are people like you, who have no other way to express their jealousy and insecurities. Why don't you start by stating an idea of your own...or do you have to be a professional coach to know something about this game.?

You want me to start by stating an idea of my own? I won't, and there is a reason for it. There isn't an idea that I could come up with that our coaching staff hasn't already thought of.

While your ideas and suggestions may make sense, they are not new ideas. You made it sound like you were the first person ever to come up with these ideas. I'm really sorry, but you weren't.

With all of the years and experience that our coaching staff has, I promise you that whatever thought you may have, they have already thought of. Or whatever criticism you have about one of the players, they have already noticed it.

You can sit there and wonder why we do this or why we don't do that......but at the end of the day, the coaching staff has their reasons for why we do this or don't do that, and their reasoning is a lot more justified than any poster's opinion on this site.

Mr. Peanuts...I express my thoughts and ideas here as my own. Are you telling me not to bother, because it's all been said or thought of before? If you find my posts redundant, than I can only suggest that you avoid reading them. I share my basketball knowledge for free for anyone who cares to pay attention. I don't feel I owe an apology to you for commenting on this site. I thought that is what we all come here for. Some people, like yourself, are not happy unless they are belittling others. In any event, your very loyal confidence in the coaching staff of St. John's is commendable....if not totally foolish. Steve Lavin is a basket case. Recruits know it, opposing coaches know it, the media knows it, and most of the fan base know it. He has totally lost his grip on recruiting (his supposed # 1 strength)...and his understanding of the on-court chemistry at any time, in any game, is pathetic. This obvious inability trumps the credibility that you so readily extend to him for years of experience. Heck, I've been seriously following basketball for longer than this guy has been alive. There are probably 25 guys, right on this board, who understand the game better. I'm amazed that you are naive enough to believe that professional means infallible. Steve Lavin lacks a strong basketball I.Q. People in the know are aware of this. Where does that leave you?

So what D1 school have you been the head coach at? There is a reason why Lavin is the head coach, and you are posting on a fan board....

I'm not saying that you don't understand the game of basketball...as I believe that you do.
It's just laughable to think that you know more than this coaching staff.....[/quote]

ESPN did a list of the top 75 coaches in college basketball, what number was Lavin?

 

[beast of the east]

I wonder why people on this board still insist that they know more about the game of basketball than our coaching staff.....

I wonder why people here consider themselves the next coming of John Wooden......

I sure hope that attempting to put me down makes you feel better about yourself, Peanut Boy. I wonder why there are people like you, who have no other way to express their jealousy and insecurities. Why don't you start by stating an idea of your own...or do you have to be a professional coach to know something about this game.?

You want me to start by stating an idea of my own? I won't, and there is a reason for it. There isn't an idea that I could come up with that our coaching staff hasn't already thought of.

While your ideas and suggestions may make sense, they are not new ideas. You made it sound like you were the first person ever to come up with these ideas. I'm really sorry, but you weren't.

With all of the years and experience that our coaching staff has, I promise you that whatever thought you may have, they have already thought of. Or whatever criticism you have about one of the players, they have already noticed it.

You can sit there and wonder why we do this or why we don't do that......but at the end of the day, the coaching staff has their reasons for why we do this or don't do that, and their reasoning is a lot more justified than any poster's opinion on this site.

Mr. Peanuts...I express my thoughts and ideas here as my own. Are you telling me not to bother, because it's all been said or thought of before? If you find my posts redundant, than I can only suggest that you avoid reading them. I share my basketball knowledge for free for anyone who cares to pay attention. I don't feel I owe an apology to you for commenting on this site. I thought that is what we all come here for. Some people, like yourself, are not happy unless they are belittling others. In any event, your very loyal confidence in the coaching staff of St. John's is commendable....if not totally foolish. Steve Lavin is a basket case. Recruits know it, opposing coaches know it, the media knows it, and most of the fan base know it. He has totally lost his grip on recruiting (his supposed # 1 strength)...and his understanding of the on-court chemistry at any time, in any game, is pathetic. This obvious inability trumps the credibility that you so readily extend to him for years of experience. Heck, I've been seriously following basketball for longer than this guy has been alive. There are probably 25 guys, right on this board, who understand the game better. I'm amazed that you are naive enough to believe that professional means infallible. Steve Lavin lacks a strong basketball I.Q. People in the know are aware of this. Where does that leave you?

So what D1 school have you been the head coach at? There is a reason why Lavin is the head coach, and you are posting on a fan board....

I'm not saying that you don't understand the game of basketball...as I believe that you do.
It's just laughable to think that you know more than this coaching staff.....

ESPN did a list of the top 75 coaches in college basketball, what number was Lavin?[/quote]

Can some of us stop sniping at DocButler. He is one of our most ardent fans, is very analytical, and likes to express his thoughts in writing. He's a great supporter of SJU basketball, and I see him frequently at both CA and MSG. I'm not pointing this at anyone, because I've been guilty of it too, but hell, leave the guy alone and use his opinions as points of discussion, not reason to berate him.

 

[beast of the east]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.

Who above us on that list has been equal or worse on the court? UTEP? South Carolina? That's about it.

Actually, over the last 15 years our record is more similar to teams ranked in the 80s... Seton Hall, Penn State, Georgia etc.
I don't see how we can complain about attendance until the program puts a good team on the court for 2 consecutive seasons.

Desco, there are crappy programs that double us in average attendance. Look up the NCAA stats and check out Nebraska. We averaged over 10k before the 2003 disaster. Norm's teams never pulled us over the 6k range. Lavin brought it up to well over 8k a few years ago. In a city that prides itself on its interest in hoops it should not take 2 seasons to pull in fans. You guys that are staying away because of the let down at the end of last season are missing out on seeing this team play hard, tough and good ball.

I'm talking about the average student or basketball fan in nyc.
I have missed one game this season, I'm not staying away from anything.
I obviously think Lavin is a dope, but that won't stop me from going to games. And you're right, it doesn't reflect well that we can't draw as well as Nebraska on a regular basis. But that's how NY is. Look at the Mets attendance, or take a look at how many people show up for jets and Giants games the rest to this season...and those tickets are already paid for in many cases.

Sju has to win, just a little more consistently before it can complain about fan support.

I don't hear anyone but a few posters complaining. Hoops writers did pick up on it. I would not blame the players or coaches for questioning it. I agree with you on the NY part of it. NY sports fans tend to stay home these days and let fans from out of town take their seats. It has been that way for a long time. It was cool at the Pitt game four years ago. That is the atmosphere we all want to see again.

I blame it on 55 inch TVs. You can see the game better than ever and not have to fight traffic.

Beast, I heard the same point when TV's had antennas. It is still a valid one.

So few Johnny fans (about 3k by my estimate) value the unique opportunity college sports brings to alumni and fans of a program. It is pretty cool to meet and get to know other fans and to celebrate the big victories with them. I've been fortunate to have seen great thoroughbreds like Ruffian and Forego walk on to the track and race..

i gotta go with you and Ralph to Belmont sometime next year

Sounds like a section 114 outing. Just don't bet with Ralph if you want to keep some of your money.

If Ralph is organizing an outing to Belmont, I'll tell my brother-in-law Joe B. I have a feeling one of you guys introduced him to his love of the ponies.