I Wonder Why?

[beast of the east]

I wonder why among the many reasons to criticize Lavin, some posters are critical of him recruiting guys who leave early for the NBA?

 

[fuchsia]

Hey Marillac the only way Balamou will be around in 16-17 is if he redshirts next year after your best bud burned last years redshirt year by playing him for 10 minutes in one game.

And he's not my best bud. I am just willing to give the man the benefit of having his first recruiting class finish. Is that too much to ask?

The key problem in this exchange is that Marillac thinks he is on a St. John's basketball forum and doesn't realize that many of the people on this board saw the word red and were overwhelmed with nostalgia for Soviet era purge trials. Where is Andrei Vishinsky when we really need him? He would prove that Lavin has been stealing wheat from the people.

Also, I am deeply offended by references to old rock and roll about crying with not a word mentioning Smoky Robinson's Tracks of My Tears and Tears of a Clown.

 

[1and1sju]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

 

[logen]

Unfortunately the carrot of NYC / MSG is over-rated and does not have the allure many on here like to think it has.. Otherwise why would the top HS kids chose places like Spokane, Lawrence, or heaven forbid, Storrs or Syracuse? To paraphrase Popeye, "We are what we are"...

The RIGHT coach maximizes the advantages of their locations, be it sleepy Storrs or sunny Gainesville. The best example and the best in the game is John Calipari. Whether it was Amherst or Memphis he got the players. Maybe players with an * but he got the players. He never let the lack of his conferences power ranking affect his recruiting success. His last 4 years at Memphis he went for 33 33, 38 and 33 wins. He earns over 8 million at UK with bonuses because he can get 10 high school all Americans. I think a guy earning 2 million should be good for at least 2 players in the bottom half of the top 100 every year. The results the last two years speak for themselves. He gets to the NCAA and is one and and does not reach the recruiting goals he is a gonner.

Agreed about the coach and ability to recruit. You must agree though, that Norm is a better recruiter selling Bill Self and Kansas, than SJU and Norm Roberts. Calipari can flat out sell, but SJU could win 4 championships in a row and never fork over $8 million a year to a coach. Lavin has done better than anyone in quite a while in terms of recruiting, but he did start 2011-2012 with an absolutely bankrupt roster. Still I'd agree that he's failed to bring in enough talent to offset any deficiencies he is as a strategist.

If you look at his whole body of work, I honestly do not think he's done such a stellar recruiting job. Yes he made a big splash initially, and he deserved a ton of credit for that, but that class never quite panned out. At that same time he turned away Ron Roberts who would have been a solid 4 year player for us. I'm not quite sure what happened with Polee and whether he was forced out, but there's another kid who would have been a serviceable 4 year player for us. He has failed to recruit a balanced roster in terms of players who compliment each other. He has not effectively spread out scholarships. He has failed to identify and recruit solid roll players and has grossly overestimated the abilities of kids like Hooper, Bourgault and now apparently Amar. He has not exactly ingratiated himself with the local high school and AAU coaches thus eliminating what has historically been our most effective pipeline. While its not my dime, he has traveled the country and the globe to find walk-ons and end of the bench type players. He has recruited kids with questionable academics without doing his due diligence(or ignoring the results) and without any kind of back-up plan. Other than his immediate predecessor, I would argue that he's actually done a worse recruiting job than any of our other coaches.

My point is, not to be overlooked is that instead of beginning his second year with 3-4 carryover players meriting playing time, Roberts left such an unbalanced roster that Lavin began year two with absolutely zero. To some extent, he is still crawling out of that hole now, and admittedly not filling that hole as quickly or with as much quality as needed to be a tourney team year in, year out.

Disagree wholeheartedly that Lavin is still affected by Roberts inbalance. He has been here 5 years, more than enough time to have this program in order. One could argue with me but I don't think he has recruited any better than Roberts did. On paper, yes, in reality, no.Harrison is obviously a better player than anyone Roberts recruited and personally I discount Harkless, not knocking him at all but his presence really did nothing to help the program. Hardy's senior year dwarfs anything Jordan has done and the rest of the players are basically a wash. Sampson made the pros and good for him but he was not an appreciably better college player than Brownlee, if he was at all. Again, Brownlee's senior year was certainly better than anything Sampson did. I do think it is only fair toI mention that Lavin is certainly recruiting in a more difficult situation given the demise of the BE but his recruiting over 5 years has been fair at best.

Actually, Hardy didn't have a great senior year. He had a great 10 game or so run. When he returned to earth, our post season chances were done. We were staggering to the gate long before Kennedy went down with a knee injury in the BET.

How could possibly discount an NBA one-and-done recruit as nothing to credit Lavin for? That makes no sense. Harrison may be better than anything Roberts recruited, but his NBA hopes are likely below that of Sampson and even Sanchez, and certainly below Obekpa and Jordan. So, right there you have 6 players that are better than anything Roberts recruited.

As Monte said above I couldn't care less who Lavin gets in the pros. Therefore I can easily discount Harkless who played one year on a losing team and went pro; he did nothing to advance the SJU program. I am not knocking him, that is the way the game is played now and no one can turn down that money but again what tangibly did his presence do for the program? Nothing. If you think getting players to the pros is a mark of good recruiting, OK; I don't. I look at the product on the court and we have put poor teams on the court IMO with Lavin's recruits. Last year we were decent but fell flat on our faces in crunch time. This year remains to be seen but the bottom line; I have not been impressed with Lavin's recruiting. Having good recruiting numbers for magazines and sending players to the pros mean nothing to me, building a consistent, sustainable program does. In that regard Lavin has not come close.

Let me add a hypothetical, if Lavin leaves after this year, and even if Jordan and Obekpa stay, is the program in as good a shape as when Roberts left? I would say no and Roberts left the program behind the 8 ball. Frankly, I don't see a way in the world Lavin succeeds here regardless of what we may do this year. I will root for SJU always and I hope if Lavin stays I am proven wrong but I just don't see a way.

I think this is silly. Norm left Lavin with 11 graduating players in one season (absolutely unheard of). If Lavin gets CO and Jordan back next season, and the new coach gets Stewart, Ali B, ADR, Balamou, Henderson, JDR, Jones, Samir Doughty (and womever Lav adds this class) and rest of the walkons, that is a fine well-balanced roster. Norm didn't even leave Lavin with decent walkons!

Jordan has two seasons of eligibility left. A 2016-2017 back court of Jordan-Stewart-Henderson-Balamou-Doughty looks pretty solid to me.

Uh, Lavin was left with an NCAA team; his successor (hypothetically), gets a handful of players who have never accomplished anything at the D1 level, a center with extremely limited skills, and a highly rated point guard who has had a very, very uneven start to his career. And frankly, when talking silly, your description of the above as a "fine well-balanced roster" gives a whole new definition to the word. IMO, that group would have trouble winning a game in the BE.

 

[paultzman]

N

Unfortunately the carrot of NYC / MSG is over-rated and does not have the allure many on here like to think it has.. Otherwise why would the top HS kids chose places like Spokane, Lawrence, or heaven forbid, Storrs or Syracuse? To paraphrase Popeye, "We are what we are"...

The RIGHT coach maximizes the advantages of their locations, be it sleepy Storrs or sunny Gainesville. The best example and the best in the game is John Calipari. Whether it was Amherst or Memphis he got the players. Maybe players with an * but he got the players. He never let the lack of his conferences power ranking affect his recruiting success. His last 4 years at Memphis he went for 33 33, 38 and 33 wins. He earns over 8 million at UK with bonuses because he can get 10 high school all Americans. I think a guy earning 2 million should be good for at least 2 players in the bottom half of the top 100 every year. The results the last two years speak for themselves. He gets to the NCAA and is one and and does not reach the recruiting goals he is a gonner.

Agreed about the coach and ability to recruit. You must agree though, that Norm is a better recruiter selling Bill Self and Kansas, than SJU and Norm Roberts. Calipari can flat out sell, but SJU could win 4 championships in a row and never fork over $8 million a year to a coach. Lavin has done better than anyone in quite a while in terms of recruiting, but he did start 2011-2012 with an absolutely bankrupt roster. Still I'd agree that he's failed to bring in enough talent to offset any deficiencies he is as a strategist.

If you look at his whole body of work, I honestly do not think he's done such a stellar recruiting job. Yes he made a big splash initially, and he deserved a ton of credit for that, but that class never quite panned out. At that same time he turned away Ron Roberts who would have been a solid 4 year player for us. I'm not quite sure what happened with Polee and whether he was forced out, but there's another kid who would have been a serviceable 4 year player for us. He has failed to recruit a balanced roster in terms of players who compliment each other. He has not effectively spread out scholarships. He has failed to identify and recruit solid roll players and has grossly overestimated the abilities of kids like Hooper, Bourgault and now apparently Amar. He has not exactly ingratiated himself with the local high school and AAU coaches thus eliminating what has historically been our most effective pipeline. While its not my dime, he has traveled the country and the globe to find walk-ons and end of the bench type players. He has recruited kids with questionable academics without doing his due diligence(or ignoring the results) and without any kind of back-up plan. Other than his immediate predecessor, I would argue that he's actually done a worse recruiting job than any of our other coaches.

My point is, not to be overlooked is that instead of beginning his second year with 3-4 carryover players meriting playing time, Roberts left such an unbalanced roster that Lavin began year two with absolutely zero. To some extent, he is still crawling out of that hole now, and admittedly not filling that hole as quickly or with as much quality as needed to be a tourney team year in, year out.

Disagree wholeheartedly that Lavin is still affected by Roberts inbalance. He has been here 5 years, more than enough time to have this program in order. One could argue with me but I don't think he has recruited any better than Roberts did. On paper, yes, in reality, no.Harrison is obviously a better player than anyone Roberts recruited and personally I discount Harkless, not knocking him at all but his presence really did nothing to help the program. Hardy's senior year dwarfs anything Jordan has done and the rest of the players are basically a wash. Sampson made the pros and good for him but he was not an appreciably better college player than Brownlee, if he was at all. Again, Brownlee's senior year was certainly better than anything Sampson did. I do think it is only fair toI mention that Lavin is certainly recruiting in a more difficult situation given the demise of the BE but his recruiting over 5 years has been fair at best.

Actually, Hardy didn't have a great senior year. He had a great 10 game or so run. When he returned to earth, our post season chances were done. We were staggering to the gate long before Kennedy went down with a knee injury in the BET.

How could possibly discount an NBA one-and-done recruit as nothing to credit Lavin for? That makes no sense. Harrison may be better than anything Roberts recruited, but his NBA hopes are likely below that of Sampson and even Sanchez, and certainly below Obekpa and Jordan. So, right there you have 6 players that are better than anything Roberts recruited.

As Monte said above I couldn't care less who Lavin gets in the pros. Therefore I can easily discount Harkless who played one year on a losing team and went pro; he did nothing to advance the SJU program. I am not knocking him, that is the way the game is played now and no one can turn down that money but again what tangibly did his presence do for the program? Nothing. If you think getting players to the pros is a mark of good recruiting, OK; I don't. I look at the product on the court and we have put poor teams on the court IMO with Lavin's recruits. Last year we were decent but fell flat on our faces in crunch time. This year remains to be seen but the bottom line; I have not been impressed with Lavin's recruiting. Having good recruiting numbers for magazines and sending players to the pros mean nothing to me, building a consistent, sustainable program does. In that regard Lavin has not come close.

Let me add a hypothetical, if Lavin leaves after this year, and even if Jordan and Obekpa stay, is the program in as good a shape as when Roberts left? I would say no and Roberts left the program behind the 8 ball. Frankly, I don't see a way in the world Lavin succeeds here regardless of what we may do this year. I will root for SJU always and I hope if Lavin stays I am proven wrong but I just don't see a way.

I think this is silly. Norm left Lavin with 11 graduating players in one season (absolutely unheard of). If Lavin gets CO and Jordan back next season, and the new coach gets Stewart, Ali B, ADR, Balamou, Henderson, JDR, Jones, Samir Doughty (and womever Lav adds this class) and rest of the walkons, that is a fine well-balanced roster. Norm didn't even leave Lavin with decent walkons!

Jordan has two seasons of eligibility left. A 2016-2017 back court of Jordan-Stewart-Henderson-Balamou-Doughty looks pretty solid to me.

Uh, Lavin was left with an NCAA team; his successor (hypothetically), gets a handful of players who have never accomplished anything at the D1 level, a center with extremely limited skills, and a highly rated point guard who has had a very, very uneven start to his career. And frankly, when talking silly, your description of the above as a "fine well-balanced roster" gives a whole new definition to the word. IMO, that group would have trouble winning a game in the BE.[/quot

 

[paultzman]

N

Unfortunately the carrot of NYC / MSG is over-rated and does not have the allure many on here like to think it has.. Otherwise why would the top HS kids chose places like Spokane, Lawrence, or heaven forbid, Storrs or Syracuse? To paraphrase Popeye, "We are what we are"...

The RIGHT coach maximizes the advantages of their locations, be it sleepy Storrs or sunny Gainesville. The best example and the best in the game is John Calipari. Whether it was Amherst or Memphis he got the players. Maybe players with an * but he got the players. He never let the lack of his conferences power ranking affect his recruiting success. His last 4 years at Memphis he went for 33 33, 38 and 33 wins. He earns over 8 million at UK with bonuses because he can get 10 high school all Americans. I think a guy earning 2 million should be good for at least 2 players in the bottom half of the top 100 every year. The results the last two years speak for themselves. He gets to the NCAA and is one and and does not reach the recruiting goals he is a gonner.

Agreed about the coach and ability to recruit. You must agree though, that Norm is a better recruiter selling Bill Self and Kansas, than SJU and Norm Roberts. Calipari can flat out sell, but SJU could win 4 championships in a row and never fork over $8 million a year to a coach. Lavin has done better than anyone in quite a while in terms of recruiting, but he did start 2011-2012 with an absolutely bankrupt roster. Still I'd agree that he's failed to bring in enough talent to offset any deficiencies he is as a strategist.

If you look at his whole body of work, I honestly do not think he's done such a stellar recruiting job. Yes he made a big splash initially, and he deserved a ton of credit for that, but that class never quite panned out. At that same time he turned away Ron Roberts who would have been a solid 4 year player for us. I'm not quite sure what happened with Polee and whether he was forced out, but there's another kid who would have been a serviceable 4 year player for us. He has failed to recruit a balanced roster in terms of players who compliment each other. He has not effectively spread out scholarships. He has failed to identify and recruit solid roll players and has grossly overestimated the abilities of kids like Hooper, Bourgault and now apparently Amar. He has not exactly ingratiated himself with the local high school and AAU coaches thus eliminating what has historically been our most effective pipeline. While its not my dime, he has traveled the country and the globe to find walk-ons and end of the bench type players. He has recruited kids with questionable academics without doing his due diligence(or ignoring the results) and without any kind of back-up plan. Other than his immediate predecessor, I would argue that he's actually done a worse recruiting job than any of our other coaches.

My point is, not to be overlooked is that instead of beginning his second year with 3-4 carryover players meriting playing time, Roberts left such an unbalanced roster that Lavin began year two with absolutely zero. To some extent, he is still crawling out of that hole now, and admittedly not filling that hole as quickly or with as much quality as needed to be a tourney team year in, year out.

Disagree wholeheartedly that Lavin is still affected by Roberts inbalance. He has been here 5 years, more than enough time to have this program in order. One could argue with me but I don't think he has recruited any better than Roberts did. On paper, yes, in reality, no.Harrison is obviously a better player than anyone Roberts recruited and personally I discount Harkless, not knocking him at all but his presence really did nothing to help the program. Hardy's senior year dwarfs anything Jordan has done and the rest of the players are basically a wash. Sampson made the pros and good for him but he was not an appreciably better college player than Brownlee, if he was at all. Again, Brownlee's senior year was certainly better than anything Sampson did. I do think it is only fair toI mention that Lavin is certainly recruiting in a more difficult situation given the demise of the BE but his recruiting over 5 years has been fair at best.

Actually, Hardy didn't have a great senior year. He had a great 10 game or so run. When he returned to earth, our post season chances were done. We were staggering to the gate long before Kennedy went down with a knee injury in the BET.

How could possibly discount an NBA one-and-done recruit as nothing to credit Lavin for? That makes no sense. Harrison may be better than anything Roberts recruited, but his NBA hopes are likely below that of Sampson and even Sanchez, and certainly below Obekpa and Jordan. So, right there you have 6 players that are better than anything Roberts recruited.

As Monte said above I couldn't care less who Lavin gets in the pros. Therefore I can easily discount Harkless who played one year on a losing team and went pro; he did nothing to advance the SJU program. I am not knocking him, that is the way the game is played now and no one can turn down that money but again what tangibly did his presence do for the program? Nothing. If you think getting players to the pros is a mark of good recruiting, OK; I don't. I look at the product on the court and we have put poor teams on the court IMO with Lavin's recruits. Last year we were decent but fell flat on our faces in crunch time. This year remains to be seen but the bottom line; I have not been impressed with Lavin's recruiting. Having good recruiting numbers for magazines and sending players to the pros mean nothing to me, building a consistent, sustainable program does. In that regard Lavin has not come close.

Let me add a hypothetical, if Lavin leaves after this year, and even if Jordan and Obekpa stay, is the program in as good a shape as when Roberts left? I would say no and Roberts left the program behind the 8 ball. Frankly, I don't see a way in the world Lavin succeeds here regardless of what we may do this year. I will root for SJU always and I hope if Lavin stays I am proven wrong but I just don't see a way.

I think this is silly. Norm left Lavin with 11 graduating players in one season (absolutely unheard of). If Lavin gets CO and Jordan back next season, and the new coach gets Stewart, Ali B, ADR, Balamou, Henderson, JDR, Jones, Samir Doughty (and womever Lav adds this class) and rest of the walkons, that is a fine well-balanced roster. Norm didn't even leave Lavin with decent walkons!

Jordan has two seasons of eligibility left. A 2016-2017 back court of Jordan-Stewart-Henderson-Balamou-Doughty looks pretty solid to me.

Uh, Lavin was left with an NCAA team; his successor (hypothetically), gets a handful of players who have never accomplished anything at the D1 level, a center with extremely limited skills, and a highly rated point guard who has had a very, very uneven start to his career. And frankly, when talking silly, your description of the above as a "fine well-balanced roster" gives a whole new definition to the word. IMO, that group would have trouble winning a game in the BE.

Sensible post. Substance v. Senseless rhetoric.

 

[Jack Williams]

Unfortunately the carrot of NYC / MSG is over-rated and does not have the allure many on here like to think it has.. Otherwise why would the top HS kids chose places like Spokane, Lawrence, or heaven forbid, Storrs or Syracuse? To paraphrase Popeye, "We are what we are"...

The RIGHT coach maximizes the advantages of their locations, be it sleepy Storrs or sunny Gainesville. The best example and the best in the game is John Calipari. Whether it was Amherst or Memphis he got the players. Maybe players with an * but he got the players. He never let the lack of his conferences power ranking affect his recruiting success. His last 4 years at Memphis he went for 33 33, 38 and 33 wins. He earns over 8 million at UK with bonuses because he can get 10 high school all Americans. I think a guy earning 2 million should be good for at least 2 players in the bottom half of the top 100 every year. The results the last two years speak for themselves. He gets to the NCAA and is one and and does not reach the recruiting goals he is a gonner.

Agreed about the coach and ability to recruit. You must agree though, that Norm is a better recruiter selling Bill Self and Kansas, than SJU and Norm Roberts. Calipari can flat out sell, but SJU could win 4 championships in a row and never fork over $8 million a year to a coach. Lavin has done better than anyone in quite a while in terms of recruiting, but he did start 2011-2012 with an absolutely bankrupt roster. Still I'd agree that he's failed to bring in enough talent to offset any deficiencies he is as a strategist.

If you look at his whole body of work, I honestly do not think he's done such a stellar recruiting job. Yes he made a big splash initially, and he deserved a ton of credit for that, but that class never quite panned out. At that same time he turned away Ron Roberts who would have been a solid 4 year player for us. I'm not quite sure what happened with Polee and whether he was forced out, but there's another kid who would have been a serviceable 4 year player for us. He has failed to recruit a balanced roster in terms of players who compliment each other. He has not effectively spread out scholarships. He has failed to identify and recruit solid roll players and has grossly overestimated the abilities of kids like Hooper, Bourgault and now apparently Amar. He has not exactly ingratiated himself with the local high school and AAU coaches thus eliminating what has historically been our most effective pipeline. While its not my dime, he has traveled the country and the globe to find walk-ons and end of the bench type players. He has recruited kids with questionable academics without doing his due diligence(or ignoring the results) and without any kind of back-up plan. Other than his immediate predecessor, I would argue that he's actually done a worse recruiting job than any of our other coaches.

My point is, not to be overlooked is that instead of beginning his second year with 3-4 carryover players meriting playing time, Roberts left such an unbalanced roster that Lavin began year two with absolutely zero. To some extent, he is still crawling out of that hole now, and admittedly not filling that hole as quickly or with as much quality as needed to be a tourney team year in, year out.

Disagree wholeheartedly that Lavin is still affected by Roberts inbalance. He has been here 5 years, more than enough time to have this program in order. One could argue with me but I don't think he has recruited any better than Roberts did. On paper, yes, in reality, no.Harrison is obviously a better player than anyone Roberts recruited and personally I discount Harkless, not knocking him at all but his presence really did nothing to help the program. Hardy's senior year dwarfs anything Jordan has done and the rest of the players are basically a wash. Sampson made the pros and good for him but he was not an appreciably better college player than Brownlee, if he was at all. Again, Brownlee's senior year was certainly better than anything Sampson did. I do think it is only fair toI mention that Lavin is certainly recruiting in a more difficult situation given the demise of the BE but his recruiting over 5 years has been fair at best.

Actually, Hardy didn't have a great senior year. He had a great 10 game or so run. When he returned to earth, our post season chances were done. We were staggering to the gate long before Kennedy went down with a knee injury in the BET.

How could possibly discount an NBA one-and-done recruit as nothing to credit Lavin for? That makes no sense. Harrison may be better than anything Roberts recruited, but his NBA hopes are likely below that of Sampson and even Sanchez, and certainly below Obekpa and Jordan. So, right there you have 6 players that are better than anything Roberts recruited.

As Monte said above I couldn't care less who Lavin gets in the pros. Therefore I can easily discount Harkless who played one year on a losing team and went pro; he did nothing to advance the SJU program. I am not knocking him, that is the way the game is played now and no one can turn down that money but again what tangibly did his presence do for the program? Nothing. If you think getting players to the pros is a mark of good recruiting, OK; I don't. I look at the product on the court and we have put poor teams on the court IMO with Lavin's recruits. Last year we were decent but fell flat on our faces in crunch time. This year remains to be seen but the bottom line; I have not been impressed with Lavin's recruiting. Having good recruiting numbers for magazines and sending players to the pros mean nothing to me, building a consistent, sustainable program does. In that regard Lavin has not come close.

Let me add a hypothetical, if Lavin leaves after this year, and even if Jordan and Obekpa stay, is the program in as good a shape as when Roberts left? I would say no and Roberts left the program behind the 8 ball. Frankly, I don't see a way in the world Lavin succeeds here regardless of what we may do this year. I will root for SJU always and I hope if Lavin stays I am proven wrong but I just don't see a way.

I think this is silly. Norm left Lavin with 11 graduating players in one season (absolutely unheard of). If Lavin gets CO and Jordan back next season, and the new coach gets Stewart, Ali B, ADR, Balamou, Henderson, JDR, Jones, Samir Doughty (and womever Lav adds this class) and rest of the walkons, that is a fine well-balanced roster. Norm didn't even leave Lavin with decent walkons!

Jordan has two seasons of eligibility left. A 2016-2017 back court of Jordan-Stewart-Henderson-Balamou-Doughty looks pretty solid to me.

Uh, Lavin was left with an NCAA team; his successor (hypothetically), gets a handful of players who have never accomplished anything at the D1 level, a center with extremely limited skills, and a highly rated point guard who has had a very, very uneven start to his career. And frankly, when talking silly, your description of the above as a "fine well-balanced roster" gives a whole new definition to the word. IMO, that group would have trouble winning a game in the BE.

Agree but the only thing I would say is that, the team Lavin inherited hadn't accomplished anything either. So he wasn't necessarily left with an ncaa team.

 

[1and1sju]

Marillac, you are slowly losing your mind buddy.

You just gave a list of players (granted, along with CO and Jordan) that together you think make for a well rounded team. "Stewart, Ali B, ADR, Balamou, Henderson, JDR, Jones, Samir Doughty"

With the exception of an in-shape Adonis, not one of those guys would start for any other team in this conference, including Depaul.

 

[logen]

I wonder why among the many reasons to criticize Lavin, some posters are critical of him recruiting guys who leave early for the NBA?

If you are referring to me I am not critical of him recruiting players who leave early for the NBA at all. I am critical of his recruiting in general because after the burst of his first year and somewhat his second he has done very little. Again, I am coming from the position of building a program not neccessarily recruiting top 25 rated players. To that end, I believe his recruiting even the first two years was better on paper than on the court. As I have stated, I want a coach whose goal is to build a program; getting players in the NBA means very, very little to me. Now those two things are obviously not mutually exclusive but I do think Lavin has done a lousy job of building a program; that seems rather obvious. I don't know anyone this side of Marillac who would argue that he has. I have no problem with the fact that Harkless and Sampson went pro, I just don't think either of them being at SJU made a real impact toward building a successful, sustainable program. That is not their responsibility but I used them, especially Harkless, to make my point about Lavin's recruiting in general.

 

[rawdognyc]

I wonder why people continually beat a dead horse. Honestly if you were in a coma for a year and checked the board out when you woke back up it would be the same exact crap being said and you'd think you never were out cold for a year.

We are 5-1.. We may win vs Syracuse. We may not. Why can't people just take it one game at a time? Why are people talking about next years team when we have no clue who else will commit here and who will leave.

Enjoy the damn season. Yeah there are good and bad things that happened last night, but we won. We all know Lavin isn't a great in game coach. No one is breaking new ground by stating that. Especially ad nauseum.

 

[beast of the east]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

 

[Class of 72]

I wonder why among the many reasons to criticize Lavin, some posters are critical of him recruiting guys who leave early for the NBA?

If you are referring to me I am not critical of him recruiting players who leave early for the NBA at all. I am critical of his recruiting in general because after the burst of his first year and somewhat his second he has done very little. Again, I am coming from the position of building a program not neccessarily recruiting top 25 rated players. To that end, I believe his recruiting even the first two years was better on paper than on the court. As I have stated, I want a coach whose goal is to build a program; getting players in the NBA means very, very little to me. Now those two things are obviously not mutually exclusive but I do think Lavin has done a lousy job of building a program; that seems rather obvious. I don't know anyone this side of Marillac who would argue that he has. I have no problem with the fact that Harkless and Sampson went pro, I just don't think either of them being at SJU made a real impact toward building a successful, sustainable program. That is not their responsibility but I used them, especially Harkless, to make my point about Lavin's recruiting in general.

Excellent summary of where we are with the Lavinwood era. He has not built anything sustainable with his haphazard recruiting and in his fifth season we are on the verge of rebuilding again in which case, as Michigan decided with their football coach, it is time to move on. Barring a late recruiting miracle, the only noise we will make in March is the announcement of a new coach. Of course this was predicted last April when, except for D'Angelo Harrison, every major player on his team had one foot out of Alumni Hall. Add to that the 2014 recruiting disaster, and the future is obvious. As for our west coast coaches, it is more of a self fulfilling prophecy, as they all seem out of their element here in NYC. Apologies to rawdognyc and others, but from many discussions with some well connected fans, this year is irrelevant to Lavin and his future since it has become obvious players would rather take a pass than play for him. Again, this became evident when his players loyalty was tested last season. Last season he let Sampson run amuck in his audition for the NBA and this year it appears we are do a replay with Rasheed Jordan. Yes, he tried to play with all of us by starting walk on Stewart, but the die is cast. At least he did not insult us by starting Balamou again, speaking of which, the year off, as with Jones, has had zero effect with this amateur staff.

 

[Class of 72]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

We are a hip hop school. Advertise a surprise guest appearance of any of dozens of NYC hip hop artists and you would attract an extra 2000 fans for crap games like Niagara.

 

[jumbo_peanuts]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here is my take on the attendance. When it comes to a recruit, people on this board frequently use the argument that its NYC, and there is so much to do and see, and you will never be bored....and why would anyone want to go to Kentucky, where there is nothing to do. But then if fans do other things and enjoy the city, they are the worst fans in the world. I don't think you can have it both ways. You can't encourage a recruit to come here because there is so much to do outside of SJU basketball, and then put down the fans for do doing the same thing that we tell our recruits that they can do.

In the end its simple......win CONSISTENTLY, and people will show up.

 

[logen]

Unfortunately the carrot of NYC / MSG is over-rated and does not have the allure many on here like to think it has.. Otherwise why would the top HS kids chose places like Spokane, Lawrence, or heaven forbid, Storrs or Syracuse? To paraphrase Popeye, "We are what we are"...

The RIGHT coach maximizes the advantages of their locations, be it sleepy Storrs or sunny Gainesville. The best example and the best in the game is John Calipari. Whether it was Amherst or Memphis he got the players. Maybe players with an * but he got the players. He never let the lack of his conferences power ranking affect his recruiting success. His last 4 years at Memphis he went for 33 33, 38 and 33 wins. He earns over 8 million at UK with bonuses because he can get 10 high school all Americans. I think a guy earning 2 million should be good for at least 2 players in the bottom half of the top 100 every year. The results the last two years speak for themselves. He gets to the NCAA and is one and and does not reach the recruiting goals he is a gonner.

Agreed about the coach and ability to recruit. You must agree though, that Norm is a better recruiter selling Bill Self and Kansas, than SJU and Norm Roberts. Calipari can flat out sell, but SJU could win 4 championships in a row and never fork over $8 million a year to a coach. Lavin has done better than anyone in quite a while in terms of recruiting, but he did start 2011-2012 with an absolutely bankrupt roster. Still I'd agree that he's failed to bring in enough talent to offset any deficiencies he is as a strategist.

If you look at his whole body of work, I honestly do not think he's done such a stellar recruiting job. Yes he made a big splash initially, and he deserved a ton of credit for that, but that class never quite panned out. At that same time he turned away Ron Roberts who would have been a solid 4 year player for us. I'm not quite sure what happened with Polee and whether he was forced out, but there's another kid who would have been a serviceable 4 year player for us. He has failed to recruit a balanced roster in terms of players who compliment each other. He has not effectively spread out scholarships. He has failed to identify and recruit solid roll players and has grossly overestimated the abilities of kids like Hooper, Bourgault and now apparently Amar. He has not exactly ingratiated himself with the local high school and AAU coaches thus eliminating what has historically been our most effective pipeline. While its not my dime, he has traveled the country and the globe to find walk-ons and end of the bench type players. He has recruited kids with questionable academics without doing his due diligence(or ignoring the results) and without any kind of back-up plan. Other than his immediate predecessor, I would argue that he's actually done a worse recruiting job than any of our other coaches.

My point is, not to be overlooked is that instead of beginning his second year with 3-4 carryover players meriting playing time, Roberts left such an unbalanced roster that Lavin began year two with absolutely zero. To some extent, he is still crawling out of that hole now, and admittedly not filling that hole as quickly or with as much quality as needed to be a tourney team year in, year out.

Disagree wholeheartedly that Lavin is still affected by Roberts inbalance. He has been here 5 years, more than enough time to have this program in order. One could argue with me but I don't think he has recruited any better than Roberts did. On paper, yes, in reality, no.Harrison is obviously a better player than anyone Roberts recruited and personally I discount Harkless, not knocking him at all but his presence really did nothing to help the program. Hardy's senior year dwarfs anything Jordan has done and the rest of the players are basically a wash. Sampson made the pros and good for him but he was not an appreciably better college player than Brownlee, if he was at all. Again, Brownlee's senior year was certainly better than anything Sampson did. I do think it is only fair toI mention that Lavin is certainly recruiting in a more difficult situation given the demise of the BE but his recruiting over 5 years has been fair at best.

Actually, Hardy didn't have a great senior year. He had a great 10 game or so run. When he returned to earth, our post season chances were done. We were staggering to the gate long before Kennedy went down with a knee injury in the BET.

How could possibly discount an NBA one-and-done recruit as nothing to credit Lavin for? That makes no sense. Harrison may be better than anything Roberts recruited, but his NBA hopes are likely below that of Sampson and even Sanchez, and certainly below Obekpa and Jordan. So, right there you have 6 players that are better than anything Roberts recruited.

As Monte said above I couldn't care less who Lavin gets in the pros. Therefore I can easily discount Harkless who played one year on a losing team and went pro; he did nothing to advance the SJU program. I am not knocking him, that is the way the game is played now and no one can turn down that money but again what tangibly did his presence do for the program? Nothing. If you think getting players to the pros is a mark of good recruiting, OK; I don't. I look at the product on the court and we have put poor teams on the court IMO with Lavin's recruits. Last year we were decent but fell flat on our faces in crunch time. This year remains to be seen but the bottom line; I have not been impressed with Lavin's recruiting. Having good recruiting numbers for magazines and sending players to the pros mean nothing to me, building a consistent, sustainable program does. In that regard Lavin has not come close.

Let me add a hypothetical, if Lavin leaves after this year, and even if Jordan and Obekpa stay, is the program in as good a shape as when Roberts left? I would say no and Roberts left the program behind the 8 ball. Frankly, I don't see a way in the world Lavin succeeds here regardless of what we may do this year. I will root for SJU always and I hope if Lavin stays I am proven wrong but I just don't see a way.

I think this is silly. Norm left Lavin with 11 graduating players in one season (absolutely unheard of). If Lavin gets CO and Jordan back next season, and the new coach gets Stewart, Ali B, ADR, Balamou, Henderson, JDR, Jones, Samir Doughty (and womever Lav adds this class) and rest of the walkons, that is a fine well-balanced roster. Norm didn't even leave Lavin with decent walkons!

Jordan has two seasons of eligibility left. A 2016-2017 back court of Jordan-Stewart-Henderson-Balamou-Doughty looks pretty solid to me.

Uh, Lavin was left with an NCAA team; his successor (hypothetically), gets a handful of players who have never accomplished anything at the D1 level, a center with extremely limited skills, and a highly rated point guard who has had a very, very uneven start to his career. And frankly, when talking silly, your description of the above as a "fine well-balanced roster" gives a whole new definition to the word. IMO, that group would have trouble winning a game in the BE.

Agree but the only thing I would say is that, the team Lavin inherited hadn't accomplished anything either. So he wasn't necessarily left with an ncaa team.

Very fair and true comment.

 

[logen]

I wonder why people continually beat a dead horse. Honestly if you were in a coma for a year and checked the board out when you woke back up it would be the same exact crap being said and you'd think you never were out cold for a year.

We are 5-1.. We may win vs Syracuse. We may not. Why can't people just take it one game at a time? Why are people talking about next years team when we have no clue who else will commit here and who will leave.

Enjoy the damn season. Yeah there are good and bad things that happened last night, but we won. We all know Lavin isn't a great in game coach. No one is breaking new ground by stating that. Especially ad nauseum.

I wonder why people continually read posts and threads thay have no interest in - this is a DISCUSSION board, therefore we discuss; if you are not interested in our discussion, by all means ignore it. Frankly, I can only read WE ARE 5-1 so many times between now and Saturday and then I will just get bored. I know we are 5-1, I am enjoying it; I also enjoy talking about where I think the program is and where it is going. If you don't, don't; no one is going to think lesser of you. Besides, speaking for myself, I have no life and am passionate about the Johnnies.

 

[rawdognyc]

I wonder why people continually beat a dead horse. Honestly if you were in a coma for a year and checked the board out when you woke back up it would be the same exact crap being said and you'd think you never were out cold for a year.

We are 5-1.. We may win vs Syracuse. We may not. Why can't people just take it one game at a time? Why are people talking about next years team when we have no clue who else will commit here and who will leave.

Enjoy the damn season. Yeah there are good and bad things that happened last night, but we won. We all know Lavin isn't a great in game coach. No one is breaking new ground by stating that. Especially ad nauseum.

I wonder why people continually read posts and threads thay have no interest in - this is a DISCUSSION board, therefore we discuss; if you are not interested in our discussion, by all means ignore it. Frankly, I can only read WE ARE 5-1 so many times between now and Saturday and then I will just get bored. I know we are 5-1, I am enjoying it; I also enjoy talking about where I think the program is and where it is going. If you don't, don't; no one is going to think lesser of you. Besides, speaking for myself, I have no life and am passionate about the Johnnies.

Discussion board or repeating board... since all you do is repeat the exact same crap. Continue on

 

[logen]

I wonder why people continually beat a dead horse. Honestly if you were in a coma for a year and checked the board out when you woke back up it would be the same exact crap being said and you'd think you never were out cold for a year.

We are 5-1.. We may win vs Syracuse. We may not. Why can't people just take it one game at a time? Why are people talking about next years team when we have no clue who else will commit here and who will leave.

Enjoy the damn season. Yeah there are good and bad things that happened last night, but we won. We all know Lavin isn't a great in game coach. No one is breaking new ground by stating that. Especially ad nauseum.

I wonder why people continually read posts and threads thay have no interest in - this is a DISCUSSION board, therefore we discuss; if you are not interested in our discussion, by all means ignore it. Frankly, I can only read WE ARE 5-1 so many times between now and Saturday and then I will just get bored. I know we are 5-1, I am enjoying it; I also enjoy talking about where I think the program is and where it is going. If you don't, don't; no one is going to think lesser of you. Besides, speaking for myself, I have no life and am passionate about the Johnnies.

Discussion board or repeating board... since all you do is repeat the exact same crap. Continue on

Again, I suggest you skip my posts; it'll be tough but I will survive. By the way, we are 5-1.

 

[rawdognyc]

I wonder why people continually beat a dead horse. Honestly if you were in a coma for a year and checked the board out when you woke back up it would be the same exact crap being said and you'd think you never were out cold for a year.

We are 5-1.. We may win vs Syracuse. We may not. Why can't people just take it one game at a time? Why are people talking about next years team when we have no clue who else will commit here and who will leave.

Enjoy the damn season. Yeah there are good and bad things that happened last night, but we won. We all know Lavin isn't a great in game coach. No one is breaking new ground by stating that. Especially ad nauseum.

I wonder why people continually read posts and threads thay have no interest in - this is a DISCUSSION board, therefore we discuss; if you are not interested in our discussion, by all means ignore it. Frankly, I can only read WE ARE 5-1 so many times between now and Saturday and then I will just get bored. I know we are 5-1, I am enjoying it; I also enjoy talking about where I think the program is and where it is going. If you don't, don't; no one is going to think lesser of you. Besides, speaking for myself, I have no life and am passionate about the Johnnies.

Discussion board or repeating board... since all you do is repeat the exact same crap. Continue on

Again, I suggest you skip my posts; it'll be tough but I will survive. By the way, we are 5-1.

try to find me repeat just 1 time my schools record. Have a great day

 

[austour]

My Wonder.......

As I read the Gonzaga and Niagra threads, I wonder why so many posters are pinning our struggles on the fans and the refs.

Really???

Our record would be 0-6 if it reflected the effort the fans make to show up at games. You don't need to wonder about it. Check out the attendance figures and compare it to any other major program.

Name me a college basketball program with a similar record to ours over the last fifteen years, that enjoys good fan support.

I think if we sold out school to North Korea, our stands would be packed with adoring fans.

Here's a list of average attendance for 2014 ( a year in which STJ won 20 games by the way).
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2014.pdf

Plenty of equal or worse programs above STJ at 66.

Now if fan support was measured in booster dollars it would be even worse.