Dunn Visit

[quote="JohnnyFan" post=355145]Obviously, Dunn is not a prized recruit. But, before jumping to concerns that CMA is not aiming high enough, consider the 2020 targets he and staff are involved with.

The 2019 class has been assembled in less than 120 days. The expectation, for that time frame, is to retain existing talent (done) and grab as many serviceable players as possible. It's hard to ask for more than that.[/quote]

I suppose my concern was more with Paultzman’s comment that Dunn was a hedge bet for our 2020 guard prospects. It’s concerning to me because I can’t see Dunn as a hedge for us landing some significant Big East-level talent in 2020. We are under-talented on the roster already to most Big East teams by a decent margin except for LJ, Heron and maybe one or two others and they are likely both gone after this season. Bottom line is that if we don’t land some real talent for 2020, we are going to be stuck with a mid-major roster for the most part for the foreseeable future. I don’t think we can afford to strike out or land marginal kids for 2020.

I’m not trying to put an unreasonable expectation out there. Much of this scenario was created by the prior staff with almost nil young talent on the roster. Regardless, we are in dire need of more talent on the roster otherwise we will not be going very far. I don’t care what kind of system we have, talent goes out and scores the points and wins games.
 
Redmen.com is not a test. It is a projective test, measuring not what is seen but the nature of the observer.
 
[quote="MCNPA" post=355146][quote="JohnnyFan" post=355145]Obviously, Dunn is not a prized recruit. But, before jumping to concerns that CMA is not aiming high enough, consider the 2020 targets he and staff are involved with.

The 2019 class has been assembled in less than 120 days. The expectation, for that time frame, is to retain existing talent (done) and grab as many serviceable players as possible. It's hard to ask for more than that.[/quote]

I suppose my concern was more with Paultzman’s comment that Dunn was a hedge bet for our 2020 guard prospects. It’s concerning to me because I can’t see Dunn as a hedge for us landing some significant Big East-level talent in 2020. We are under-talented on the roster already to most Big East teams by a decent margin except for LJ, Heron and maybe one or two others and they are likely both gone after this season. Bottom line is that if we don’t land some real talent for 2020, we are going to be stuck with a mid-major roster for the most part for the foreseeable future. I don’t think we can afford to strike out or land marginal kids for 2020.

I’m not trying to put an unreasonable expectation out there. Much of this scenario was created by the prior staff with almost nil young talent on the roster. Regardless, we are in dire need of more talent on the roster otherwise we will not be going very far. I don’t care what kind of system we have, talent goes out and scores the points and wins games.[/quote]
To be clear, my hedge bet comment re off guards was a possibility in my mind, not a preference. Secondly, they seem well positioned for Posh A for PG need.
 
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[quote="MCNPA" post=355137][quote="Logen" post=355133][quote="MCNPA" post=355132]I’m sorry fellas, but I’m not buying Dunn as a legitimate Big East option in lieu of landing some better players. We didn’t step down to division 2 and our expectations should not be lowered THAT much because of a coaching change, especially one with the record of Mike Anderson..[/quote]

With all due respect to any posters who feel differently, I have more confidence in the staff to put together a roster than any of you. I am genuinely curious, when is the last time you saw Dunn play? Do you have any insight into the role he is expected to fill? I assume I have seen him play because I saw Ponds several times in high school but I don’t remember him so I have no opinion on him. As for expectations, like I posted previously, I will wait to see the product on the court for a season or two before I decide whether they are met or not. It Is hard as a fan to be starting over AGAIN but we are and it is a process. As with all the previous coaches I will give Anderson time and not hold him to a different standard simply because the previous six coaches were what they were.[/quote]

I’m not playing the “have you seen him” game. I’m fine with him coming on board if he can help us in 2019. Zero problems with that. I’ve been watching ball long enough to know that we aren’t going anywhere in the Big East with the level
Of talent we have sans Figueroa, Heron and maybe 2 or 3 others. I know what type of talent the rest of he league brings in and I’ve seen most of our bench guys. We are not yet built to challenge for the upper half of the league, and are likely going to be hopeful to stay out of the bottom of it.

Dunn is coming from a mid-major school and put up fair numbers with some poor percentages. I like that he’s a nyc with toughness and will play at both ends. I’m assuming coach Anderson wants to do this so we can press the crap out of teams this year and send waves at teams defensively. I think that is a good idea.

I don’t see this kid being any sort of hedge for landing some higher tier players for 2020. There’s too many good 3-4 star players that we should be able to compete. Do I trust Anderson? Sure. That said, we need a lot more talent than we have and sooner rather than later. It’s not even fall yet. Need to land some studs and not just role-players moving forward.[/quote]

Play your "numbers" game, your prerogative. Again, did all the 3-4 star recruits that Lavin and Mullin bring in get us anywhere? And judging players sight unseen is a bit too clairvoyant for me but then I like to form opinions based on what I know, not what others think they do. Long list of low rated players that out performed those higher, very long list. Like I said, I will trust Anderson to build his roster and then judge his teams the only place it matters, on the court.
 
[quote="Logen" post=355156][quote="MCNPA" post=355137][quote="Logen" post=355133][quote="MCNPA" post=355132]I’m sorry fellas, but I’m not buying Dunn as a legitimate Big East option in lieu of landing some better players. We didn’t step down to division 2 and our expectations should not be lowered THAT much because of a coaching change, especially one with the record of Mike Anderson..[/quote]

With all due respect to any posters who feel differently, I have more confidence in the staff to put together a roster than any of you. I am genuinely curious, when is the last time you saw Dunn play? Do you have any insight into the role he is expected to fill? I assume I have seen him play because I saw Ponds several times in high school but I don’t remember him so I have no opinion on him. As for expectations, like I posted previously, I will wait to see the product on the court for a season or two before I decide whether they are met or not. It Is hard as a fan to be starting over AGAIN but we are and it is a process. As with all the previous coaches I will give Anderson time and not hold him to a different standard simply because the previous six coaches were what they were.[/quote]

I’m not playing the “have you seen him” game. I’m fine with him coming on board if he can help us in 2019. Zero problems with that. I’ve been watching ball long enough to know that we aren’t going anywhere in the Big East with the level
Of talent we have sans Figueroa, Heron and maybe 2 or 3 others. I know what type of talent the rest of he league brings in and I’ve seen most of our bench guys. We are not yet built to challenge for the upper half of the league, and are likely going to be hopeful to stay out of the bottom of it.

Dunn is coming from a mid-major school and put up fair numbers with some poor percentages. I like that he’s a nyc with toughness and will play at both ends. I’m assuming coach Anderson wants to do this so we can press the crap out of teams this year and send waves at teams defensively. I think that is a good idea.

I don’t see this kid being any sort of hedge for landing some higher tier players for 2020. There’s too many good 3-4 star players that we should be able to compete. Do I trust Anderson? Sure. That said, we need a lot more talent than we have and sooner rather than later. It’s not even fall yet. Need to land some studs and not just role-players moving forward.[/quote]

Play your "numbers" game, your prerogative. Again, did all the 3-4 star recruits that Lavin and Mullin bring in get us anywhere? And judging players sight unseen is a bit too clairvoyant for me but then I like to form opinions based on what I know, not what others think they do. Long list of low rated players that out performed those higher, very long list. Like I said, I will trust Anderson to build his roster and then judge his teams the only place it matters, on the court.[/quote]

Logen you've got a lot more faith than me. I've learn my lesson after the last 6 hires: I will never "trust" another St. John's coach again.....until he proves himself over a period of time. What CMA did in the past means little-nothing to me at this point. The only thing that means something to me is what he does moving forward. So far so good, for the most part, but I'll reserve my giddiness(not accusing you of being giddy) for when I see the results on the court.
 
i think we may also be missing a bit of bigger picture here. guys like dunn and champaignie get us the local ties CMA needs to build. dunn, champaignie, will get family, friends, HS staff, into our building, ultimately forming relationships with school. obviously we want guys that will lead to wins. but we have to look at this with a longview. each move we make (player or otherwise) has bigger intentions beyond the court. my 2 cents.
 
[quote="redmen4life" post=355163]i think we may also be missing a bit of bigger picture here. guys like dunn and champaignie get us the local ties CMA needs to build. dunn, champaignie, will get family, friends, HS staff, into our building, ultimately forming relationships with school. obviously we want guys that will lead to wins. but we have to look at this with a longview. each move we make (player or otherwise) has bigger intentions beyond the court. my 2 cents.[/quote]

What you say is ts true if the local recruits are happy and successful at St John's
If they're not because they're not good enough to play here, it may hurt us in the long run
 
[quote="MarkRedman" post=355165][quote="redmen4life" post=355163]i think we may also be missing a bit of bigger picture here. guys like dunn and champaignie get us the local ties CMA needs to build. dunn, champaignie, will get family, friends, HS staff, into our building, ultimately forming relationships with school. obviously we want guys that will lead to wins. but we have to look at this with a longview. each move we make (player or otherwise) has bigger intentions beyond the court. my 2 cents.[/quote]

What you say is ts true if the local recruits are happy and successful at St John's
If they're not because they're not good enough to play here, it may hurt us in the long run[/quote]

isn't that the case with ANY player?
 
I didn't expect to see so much skepticism about Dunn when his visit was first announced, I thought people would be ecstatic, local kid, best player on a mid-major team, a guy that could possibly come in and instantly be the 3rd best scorer on the team.

It's also a bit funny because, I know on the Arkansas side, we're hoping he visits. And the Arkansas staff is working to try to get him to schedule a visit. They want to be in the position with Dunn that St. John's is in right now. My guess is if he doesn't commit on the St. John's visit, he'll visit Arkansas next, and Musselman loves those transfers that produced at the mid-major level to try to mold them.
 
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[quote="redmen4life" post=355166][quote="MarkRedman" post=355165][quote="redmen4life" post=355163]i think we may also be missing a bit of bigger picture here. guys like dunn and champaignie get us the local ties CMA needs to build. dunn, champaignie, will get family, friends, HS staff, into our building, ultimately forming relationships with school. obviously we want guys that will lead to wins. but we have to look at this with a longview. each move we make (player or otherwise) has bigger intentions beyond the court. my 2 cents.[/quote]

What you say is ts true if the local recruits are happy and successful at St John's
If they're not because they're not good enough to play here, it may hurt us in the long run[/quote]

isn't that the case with ANY player?[/quote]

Sure but I think that the stakes are higher with local programs and I don't want to see us burn bridges with lhem. There are so many fewer local kids capable of playing at St John's than there were years ago. The days of Looie recruiting virtually his entire roster with a bagful of subway tokens are long gone.

It's my opinion that we shouldn't go after marginal local kids because, if they don't have a good experience at St John's, it may negatively affect our ability to recruit highly qualified kids from local high schools in the future.
 
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[quote="Making Plays" post=355169]I didn't expect to see so much skepticism about Dunn when his visit was first announced, I thought people would be ecstatic, local kid, best player on a mid-major team, a guy that could possibly come in and instantly be the 3rd best scorer on the team.

It's also a bit funny because, I know on the Arkansas side, we're hoping he visits. And the Arkansas staff is working to try to get him to schedule a visit. They want to be in the position with Dunn that St. John's is in right now. My guess is if he doesn't commit on the St. John's visit, he'll visit Arkansas next, and Musselman loves those transfers that produced at the mid-major level to try to mold them.[/quote]
Preference for help on the interior with last scholarship is the root of any discontent for most part. Adding a guard came as a surprise to most.
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=355173][quote="Making Plays" post=355169]I didn't expect to see so much skepticism about Dunn when his visit was first announced, I thought people would be ecstatic, local kid, best player on a mid-major team, a guy that could possibly come in and instantly be the 3rd best scorer on the team.

It's also a bit funny because, I know on the Arkansas side, we're hoping he visits. And the Arkansas staff is working to try to get him to schedule a visit. They want to be in the position with Dunn that St. John's is in right now. My guess is if he doesn't commit on the St. John's visit, he'll visit Arkansas next, and Musselman loves those transfers that produced at the mid-major level to try to mold them.[/quote]
Preference for help on the interior with last scholarship is the root of any discontent for most part. Adding a guard came as a surprise to most.[/quote]

Agree with Paultz. Seems redundant particularly after Rutherford signing. Also Paultz - why the blocksky on twitter lol?
 
[quote="Windy City Johnny Fan" post=355174][quote="Paultzman" post=355173][quote="Making Plays" post=355169]I didn't expect to see so much skepticism about Dunn when his visit was first announced, I thought people would be ecstatic, local kid, best player on a mid-major team, a guy that could possibly come in and instantly be the 3rd best scorer on the team.

It's also a bit funny because, I know on the Arkansas side, we're hoping he visits. And the Arkansas staff is working to try to get him to schedule a visit. They want to be in the position with Dunn that St. John's is in right now. My guess is if he doesn't commit on the St. John's visit, he'll visit Arkansas next, and Musselman loves those transfers that produced at the mid-major level to try to mold them.[/quote]
Preference for help on the interior with last scholarship is the root of any discontent for most part. Adding a guard came as a surprise to most.[/quote]

Agree with Paultz. Seems redundant particularly after Rutherford signing. Also Paultz - why the blocksky on twitter lol?[/quote]

I wish I could block or mute ppl here.
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=355173][quote="Making Plays" post=355169]I didn't expect to see so much skepticism about Dunn when his visit was first announced, I thought people would be ecstatic, local kid, best player on a mid-major team, a guy that could possibly come in and instantly be the 3rd best scorer on the team.

It's also a bit funny because, I know on the Arkansas side, we're hoping he visits. And the Arkansas staff is working to try to get him to schedule a visit. They want to be in the position with Dunn that St. John's is in right now. My guess is if he doesn't commit on the St. John's visit, he'll visit Arkansas next, and Musselman loves those transfers that produced at the mid-major level to try to mold them.[/quote]
Preference for help on the interior with last scholarship is the root of any discontent for most part. Adding a guard came as a surprise to most.[/quote]

Gotcha.

It's kinda ironic because Arkansas is almost in an identical situation.

We have 2 proven guards that should be all league caliber in Jones and Joe. Just added a grad transfer PG to go with them. Everyone thought we'd be looking to add another big with last scholarship because, as of right now our starting center would be 6'8 220. We have a transfer big man from Cal that's hoping to get a waiver to play immediately, but it's up in the air, and most think it's probably unlikely and he has to sit out. So our starting front court is probably going to be a 6'6 guy and a 6'8 guy. With really only 2 other forwards who are both 6'8 to back them up.

I really think at this point most staff's have realized getting a big man that will be good enough to make the rotation is unlikely, so you either take best available player, or save the scholarship. With Dunn I think the staff realizes you have a local kid averaged 15 PPG and interested in coming home, you have to take a serious look at that. I am surprised though that nothing has materialized with Sita Conteh, I thought that would be a nice fit, and I thought he would be a guy that would have a chance to make the rotation. Maybe Dunn becoming available made them cool and him, and they want to see what Dunn does first before pursing him harder.
 
I've never seen Dunn play but there are two reasons I can understand the staff bringing him in.
1 the talent gap,between div. 1 and mid major has been closing for quite some time
2 the backcourt he will be competing with for minutes is far from a powerhouse and compared to what Dixon faced last year could be considered a cup cake.
 
If he can execute some of the fundamentals of the game I see no reason why we should approach this with skepticism.

Our last few coaches came in with a bang in snagging very talented recruiting classes early. The only problem was they each lacked X’s and O’s/player development acumen and those players failed to improve (some eventually did develop but it took 3 years!).

I’d much rather show quality recruits that we have a coach who can COACH UP players of lesser quality. Rather than instantly sign some flashy/shiny recruits who are inevitably setup to fail. This is an experienced coach who will build the right way. Not by way of broken promises but through hard work and tangible improvement of a young player’s skill set!
 
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[quote="Windy City Johnny Fan" post=355174][quote="Paultzman" post=355173][quote="Making Plays" post=355169]I didn't expect to see so much skepticism about Dunn when his visit was first announced, I thought people would be ecstatic, local kid, best player on a mid-major team, a guy that could possibly come in and instantly be the 3rd best scorer on the team.

It's also a bit funny because, I know on the Arkansas side, we're hoping he visits. And the Arkansas staff is working to try to get him to schedule a visit. They want to be in the position with Dunn that St. John's is in right now. My guess is if he doesn't commit on the St. John's visit, he'll visit Arkansas next, and Musselman loves those transfers that produced at the mid-major level to try to mold them.[/quote]
Preference for help on the interior with last scholarship is the root of any discontent for most part. Adding a guard came as a surprise to most.[/quote]

Agree with Paultz. Seems redundant particularly after Rutherford signing. Also Paultz - why the blocksky on twitter lol?[/quote]
Couldn’t do it here :)
 
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I'm fine with Rasheem if it is to add depth at the guard position. He and Shamorie were a formidable backcourt at Jefferson. He plays hard and has a nose for the ball. His midrange jumper is fine but he struggled from beyond the arc. For those who never saw him play he would remind you of Phil Greene and Paris Horne in terms of intensity and shooting level. Great to have as a 3rd guard but not a Big East starting talent. I think be missed home and his family and would prefer to be a Redman but needs to accept his role. He is not a threat to any point guard we are recruiting.
 
[quote="redmen4life" post=355163]i think we may also be missing a bit of bigger picture here. guys like dunn and champaignie get us the local ties CMA needs to build. dunn, champaignie, will get family, friends, HS staff, into our building, ultimately forming relationships with school. obviously we want guys that will lead to wins. but we have to look at this with a longview. each move we make (player or otherwise) has bigger intentions beyond the court. my 2 cents.[/quote]

This is exactly how I feel. Take a local kid and give him an opportunity now while we are in a transition year.
 
[quote="SJUhoopNUT" post=355205][quote="redmen4life" post=355163]i think we may also be missing a bit of bigger picture here. guys like dunn and champaignie get us the local ties CMA needs to build. dunn, champaignie, will get family, friends, HS staff, into our building, ultimately forming relationships with school. obviously we want guys that will lead to wins. but we have to look at this with a longview. each move we make (player or otherwise) has bigger intentions beyond the court. my 2 cents.[/quote] Good idea. But you have to mix them in w quality recruits. Although MA has been working his butt off, this class is underwhelming. I’m giving him a pass for this year, but next year would like to see higher caliber recruits. Like Lou C said, get good players.
 
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