Tournament or New Coach

[Class of 72]

They should've hired Mark Jackson as soon as he was fired from Golden State.

Bring him in on a 2-year deal and let it be publicly known that he'd be looking to return to the NBA after his deal was up.

Then fill his staff with an assistant head coach in training like Antigua or Abbdelmassih who would handle the recruiting but take over when Jackson leaves.

It would immediately restore local credibility because none of these scumbag NY HS coaches and handlers would be able to push Jackson around because he already knows the landscape.

Every recruit would know that Jackson would be returning to the league so that would give them incentive to give us a serious look.

And we'd have proven local recruiters ready to take over when Jackson is ready to leave.

Too late for that as I don't think Jackson would sit out what would be 3 years at this point.

But that would've been the quickest and easiest transition that I could think of.

Good to see you posting again.

Too bad Jax pretty much despises SJU

You too.

OT: I didn't know of the friction between Jackson and the school.

Either way, it's imperative IMO that they bring in someone with local ties.

We have zero NY/NJ representation on our bench. We don't even have former players.

Can someone really say that Darrick Martin has more impact than a Jimmy Salmon or a Munch would? Rasheen Davis?

You need someone on staff who is plugged in locally. We don't have that. And with all of our Cali representation, all we've been able to muster is a kid who had a better curveball than a jumpshot.

That Cali connection got us two walk ons this year!! How many kids west of the Mississippi are we even involved with? The writing on the recruiting wall started last season when we squandered an entire class. Every single player that departed, including Marco and Max, was better than who was recruited. This season they will chase after sloppy seconds, fly to exotic locales to offer unknowns while enjoying 5* meals and hotels while recruiting and getting Motel 8 quality players. It is worth repeating, if this staff cannot replace the starting 5 with quality players (not 2 and 3* players), it will be in everyone's best interests to clean house and think BIG because this new Big East is relying on St. John's BIG time.

 

[GardenCity62]

The jump shot is probably the biggest change in the evolution of basketball. From the late forties to the late fifties the game changed from set shots ala Dick McGuire and flat footed one hand shots ala Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman to Jerry West and Oscar jump shots.
Old SJU fans should remember Alan Seiden and Gus Alfieri. Both entered SJU in 1955 and were backcourt teammates. Alan was all jump shots and drives to the basket. Gus was of the old school taking set shots.
Can anyone think of a SJU player taking a set shot after Gus?

 

[beast of the east]

The jump shot is probably the biggest change in the evolution of basketball. From the late forties to the late fifties the game changed from set shots ala Dick McGuire and flat footed one hand shots ala Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman to Jerry West and Oscar jump shots.
Old SJU fans should remember Alan Seiden and Gus Alfieri. Both entered SJU in 1955 and were backcourt teammates. Alan was all jump shots and drives to the basket. Gus was of the old school taking set shots.
Can anyone think of a SJU player taking a set shot after Gus?

Again, it should have its own thread, but i'd love to hear from anyone who saw Seiden play. Consensus seems to be that he was a very special player.

 

[jerseyshorejohnny]

Gus will be honored on Thursday afternoon at the annual Lapchick Character Awards Luncheon.


http://www.characteraward.com/


http://www.newsday.com/sports/high-...aracter-foundation-leadership-award-1.9619935

 

[jumbo_peanuts]

They should've hired Mark Jackson as soon as he was fired from Golden State.

Bring him in on a 2-year deal and let it be publicly known that he'd be looking to return to the NBA after his deal was up.

Then fill his staff with an assistant head coach in training like Antigua or Abbdelmassih who would handle the recruiting but take over when Jackson leaves.

It would immediately restore local credibility because none of these scumbag NY HS coaches and handlers would be able to push Jackson around because he already knows the landscape.

Every recruit would know that Jackson would be returning to the league so that would give them incentive to give us a serious look.

And we'd have proven local recruiters ready to take over when Jackson is ready to leave.

Too late for that as I don't think Jackson would sit out what would be 3 years at this point.

But that would've been the quickest and easiest transition that I could think of.

Good to see you posting again.

Too bad Jax pretty much despises SJU

You too.

OT: I didn't know of the friction between Jackson and the school.

Either way, it's imperative IMO that they bring in someone with local ties.

We have zero NY/NJ representation on our bench. We don't even have former players.

Can someone really say that Darrick Martin has more impact than a Jimmy Salmon or a Munch would? Rasheen Davis?

You need someone on staff who is plugged in locally. We don't have that. And with all of our Cali representation, all we've been able to muster is a kid who had a better curveball than a jumpshot.

That Cali connection got us two walk ons this year!! How many kids west of the Mississippi are we even involved with? The writing on the recruiting wall started last season when we squandered an entire class. Every single player that departed, including Marco and Max, was better than who was recruited. This season they will chase after sloppy seconds, fly to exotic locales to offer unknowns while enjoying 5* meals and hotels while recruiting and getting Motel 8 quality players. It is worth repeating, if this staff cannot replace the starting 5 with quality players (not 2 and 3* players), it will be in everyone's best interests to clean house and think BIG because this new Big East is relying on St. John's BIG time.

I think Lavin is in a tough spot. People want him to recruit locally and keep connections alive. However, the talent level locally just hasn't been there. And when it is there, we are competing with the top programs in the country, and it is hard to compete with them.

I believe Lavin recognized this, and that is why he started recruiting nationally. And the problem I think he is realizing now, and I know this will take a lot of heat, but NYC is not the lure that it once was. MSG is not the lure that it once was. Did everyone see Kentucky's midnight madness? That atmosphere was 1000X better than any game we could play at MSG.

Why go to SJU/New York City (where the bball program is pretty much an after thought) when you could go to other schools where they live and die for the sport and be treated like kings?

Like I said, I think Lavin is in a state of damned if you, damned if you don't. He wants local kids, because they will appreciate the importance and tradition of the city, but the local kids (with the exception of a few) just aren't good enough. And the non-locals just don't care enough about reviving the tradition of the program.

 

[GardenCity62]

I only saw Seiden play in his senior year at SJU when I was a freshman. He was a quick five ten who took two or three dribbles and either elevated for a jump shot or took the ball to the basket where he was constantly fouled. In his last season he combined with Tony Jackson to average over 40 points a game. Seiden was voted the sixth best player in the country and Jackson number twelve in his first varsity season by the AP that season.
Seiden's career totals are not as impressive as later players because a players career was about 75 games then compared to 125 now. Seiden was very tough and as confident a player you would see.

 

[Andrew]

I think kids would want to come to New York if the campus was in Manhattan and not Queens.

 

[SJUalum98]

They should've hired Mark Jackson as soon as he was fired from Golden State.

Bring him in on a 2-year deal and let it be publicly known that he'd be looking to return to the NBA after his deal was up.

Then fill his staff with an assistant head coach in training like Antigua or Abbdelmassih who would handle the recruiting but take over when Jackson leaves.

It would immediately restore local credibility because none of these scumbag NY HS coaches and handlers would be able to push Jackson around because he already knows the landscape.

Every recruit would know that Jackson would be returning to the league so that would give them incentive to give us a serious look.

And we'd have proven local recruiters ready to take over when Jackson is ready to leave.

Too late for that as I don't think Jackson would sit out what would be 3 years at this point.

But that would've been the quickest and easiest transition that I could think of.

Good to see you posting again.

Too bad Jax pretty much despises SJU

You too.

OT: I didn't know of the friction between Jackson and the school.

Either way, it's imperative IMO that they bring in someone with local ties.

We have zero NY/NJ representation on our bench. We don't even have former players.

Can someone really say that Darrick Martin has more impact than a Jimmy Salmon or a Munch would? Rasheen Davis?

You need someone on staff who is plugged in locally. We don't have that. And with all of our Cali representation, all we've been able to muster is a kid who had a better curveball than a jumpshot.

That Cali connection got us two walk ons this year!! How many kids west of the Mississippi are we even involved with? The writing on the recruiting wall started last season when we squandered an entire class. Every single player that departed, including Marco and Max, was better than who was recruited. This season they will chase after sloppy seconds, fly to exotic locales to offer unknowns while enjoying 5* meals and hotels while recruiting and getting Motel 8 quality players. It is worth repeating, if this staff cannot replace the starting 5 with quality players (not 2 and 3* players), it will be in everyone's best interests to clean house and think BIG because this new Big East is relying on St. John's BIG time.

I think Lavin is in a tough spot. People want him to recruit locally and keep connections alive. However, the talent level locally just hasn't been there. And when it is there, we are competing with the top programs in the country, and it is hard to compete with them.

I believe Lavin recognized this, and that is why he started recruiting nationally. And the problem I think he is realizing now, and I know this will take a lot of heat, but NYC is not the lure that it once was. MSG is not the lure that it once was. Did everyone see Kentucky's midnight madness? That atmosphere was 1000X better than any game we could play at MSG.

Why go to SJU/New York City (where the bball program is pretty much an after thought) when you could go to other schools where they live and die for the sport and be treated like kings?

Like I said, I think Lavin is in a state of damned if you, damned if you don't. He wants local kids, because they will appreciate the importance and tradition of the city, but the local kids (with the exception of a few) just aren't good enough. And the non-locals just don't care enough about reviving the tradition of the program.

Are we boo-hooing over Lavin now? I've seen it all.

He recruited nationally because he had ESPN connections. He tried to gain traction locally by hiring Hicks and offering other local recruiters.

I'm tired of the no local talent argument. It's bogus.

Syracuse, which is much farther away, has poached talen out of NJ relentlessly. How far is Soho from the Holland Tunnel? Blocks.

The local talent is just fine.

My "theory" is that Lavin burned a lot of bridges when he stepped into town somewhat like Jarvis did snubbing his nose at many of the local coaches/insiders (thank goodness for Nate B).

When you have a staff of 2 Cali guys and one from Philly, they couldn't garner respect locally just by walking into a gym which I think they believed would happen.

Combine that with a perennial losing culture and it just wasn't going to work.

I have no problem recruiting nationally. But you need to have NY/NJ as your base.

Simply trying to "sell" MSG is not a good strategy.

 

[paultzman]

Agree with much of what you said. Btw,n Tony is a Bronx guy who played at All Hallows HS & Columbia. Yes, he was at Drexel a while, but does have good local relationships to be fair.

 

[Class of 72]

Agree with much of what you said. Btw,n Tony is a Bronx guy who played at All Hallows HS & Columbia. Yes, he was at Drexel a while, but does have good local relationships to be fair.

Tony can only get Lavin's foot in the door locally. Lavin has not been the closer fans wished he would be. It says a lot when Samir is the first early commit since 2011 under these coaches. I do not think any of the assistant coaches have pull on the national scene and Lavin is flat out too lazy and self-serving to be the closer we had hoped. He had a whole year off to build relationships but it has not paid dividends. We should have had kids committing at the end of their junior year if he was the real deal when playing in the Big East sold itself to players. If he couldn't do it then he sure as hell will not do it now!

 

[jumbo_peanuts]

They should've hired Mark Jackson as soon as he was fired from Golden State.

Bring him in on a 2-year deal and let it be publicly known that he'd be looking to return to the NBA after his deal was up.

Then fill his staff with an assistant head coach in training like Antigua or Abbdelmassih who would handle the recruiting but take over when Jackson leaves.

It would immediately restore local credibility because none of these scumbag NY HS coaches and handlers would be able to push Jackson around because he already knows the landscape.

Every recruit would know that Jackson would be returning to the league so that would give them incentive to give us a serious look.

And we'd have proven local recruiters ready to take over when Jackson is ready to leave.

Too late for that as I don't think Jackson would sit out what would be 3 years at this point.

But that would've been the quickest and easiest transition that I could think of.

Good to see you posting again.

Too bad Jax pretty much despises SJU

You too.

OT: I didn't know of the friction between Jackson and the school.

Either way, it's imperative IMO that they bring in someone with local ties.

We have zero NY/NJ representation on our bench. We don't even have former players.

Can someone really say that Darrick Martin has more impact than a Jimmy Salmon or a Munch would? Rasheen Davis?

You need someone on staff who is plugged in locally. We don't have that. And with all of our Cali representation, all we've been able to muster is a kid who had a better curveball than a jumpshot.

That Cali connection got us two walk ons this year!! How many kids west of the Mississippi are we even involved with? The writing on the recruiting wall started last season when we squandered an entire class. Every single player that departed, including Marco and Max, was better than who was recruited. This season they will chase after sloppy seconds, fly to exotic locales to offer unknowns while enjoying 5* meals and hotels while recruiting and getting Motel 8 quality players. It is worth repeating, if this staff cannot replace the starting 5 with quality players (not 2 and 3* players), it will be in everyone's best interests to clean house and think BIG because this new Big East is relying on St. John's BIG time.

I think Lavin is in a tough spot. People want him to recruit locally and keep connections alive. However, the talent level locally just hasn't been there. And when it is there, we are competing with the top programs in the country, and it is hard to compete with them.

I believe Lavin recognized this, and that is why he started recruiting nationally. And the problem I think he is realizing now, and I know this will take a lot of heat, but NYC is not the lure that it once was. MSG is not the lure that it once was. Did everyone see Kentucky's midnight madness? That atmosphere was 1000X better than any game we could play at MSG.

Why go to SJU/New York City (where the bball program is pretty much an after thought) when you could go to other schools where they live and die for the sport and be treated like kings?

Like I said, I think Lavin is in a state of damned if you, damned if you don't. He wants local kids, because they will appreciate the importance and tradition of the city, but the local kids (with the exception of a few) just aren't good enough. And the non-locals just don't care enough about reviving the tradition of the program.

The local talent is just fine.

Yes, the local talent is just fine. It's not great, or anything special. It's just fine, it's just ok.

That's the point

 

[logen]

Agree with much of what you said. Btw,n Tony is a Bronx guy who played at All Hallows HS & Columbia. Yes, he was at Drexel a while, but does have good local relationships to be fair.

Tony can only get Lavin's foot in the door locally. Lavin has not been the closer fans wished he would be. It says a lot when Samir is the first early commit since 2011 under these coaches. I do not think any of the assistant coaches have pull on the national scene and Lavin is flat out too lazy and self-serving to be the closer we had hoped. He had a whole year off to build relationships but it has not paid dividends. We should have had kids committing at the end of their junior year if he was the real deal when playing in the Big East sold itself to players. If he couldn't do it then he sure as hell will not do it now!

I disagree to an extent. lavin closed the deal on a phenomenal class (on paper) his first year. After that, the BE was not the BE; everyone knew it was breaking up into some lesser form. His recruiting has been poor since then; i know we got Jordan but to me he has not played well enough to back his ranking; as has been the case with all the recruits Lavin brought in with the exception of Harrison.

 

[logen]

Agree with much of what you said. Btw,n Tony is a Bronx guy who played at All Hallows HS & Columbia. Yes, he was at Drexel a while, but does have good local relationships to be fair.

Tony can only get Lavin's foot in the door locally. Lavin has not been the closer fans wished he would be. It says a lot when Samir is the first early commit since 2011 under these coaches. I do not think any of the assistant coaches have pull on the national scene and Lavin is flat out too lazy and self-serving to be the closer we had hoped. He had a whole year off to build relationships but it has not paid dividends. We should have had kids committing at the end of their junior year if he was the real deal when playing in the Big East sold itself to players. If he couldn't do it then he sure as hell will not do it now!

I disagree to an extent. lavin closed the deal on a phenomenal class (on paper) his first year. After that, the BE was not the BE; everyone knew it was breaking up into some lesser form. His recruiting has been poor since then; i know we got Jordan but to me he has not played well enough to back his ranking; as has been the case with all the recruits Lavin brought in with the exception of Harrison (and to a lesser extent harkless.)

 

[Moose]

Agree with much of what you said. Btw,n Tony is a Bronx guy who played at All Hallows HS & Columbia. Yes, he was at Drexel a while, but does have good local relationships to be fair.

Tony can only get Lavin's foot in the door locally. Lavin has not been the closer fans wished he would be. It says a lot when Samir is the first early commit since 2011 under these coaches. I do not think any of the assistant coaches have pull on the national scene and Lavin is flat out too lazy and self-serving to be the closer we had hoped. He had a whole year off to build relationships but it has not paid dividends. We should have had kids committing at the end of their junior year if he was the real deal when playing in the Big East sold itself to players. If he couldn't do it then he sure as hell will not do it now!

I disagree to an extent. lavin closed the deal on a phenomenal class (on paper) his first year. After that, the BE was not the BE; everyone knew it was breaking up into some lesser form. His recruiting has been poor since then; i know we got Jordan but to me he has not played well enough to back his ranking; as has been the case with all the recruits Lavin brought in with the exception of Harrison.

His first year the Propaganda Machine was in full force. All the buzz and attention flowing. Old BE, limitless playing time, NYC, blah blah blah.

To me the fact all those kids committed to us site unseen should have been a head scratcher. Everyone but Phil and Gift committed before we played a regular season game. Amir and Pelle committed after seeing 1 exhibition game.

One would think losing 6 maybe 7 guys next year he'd be able to promise PT to big guys but the novelty has worn off and people see past the PR.

 

[Class of 72]

Agree with much of what you said. Btw,n Tony is a Bronx guy who played at All Hallows HS & Columbia. Yes, he was at Drexel a while, but does have good local relationships to be fair.

Tony can only get Lavin's foot in the door locally. Lavin has not been the closer fans wished he would be. It says a lot when Samir is the first early commit since 2011 under these coaches. I do not think any of the assistant coaches have pull on the national scene and Lavin is flat out too lazy and self-serving to be the closer we had hoped. He had a whole year off to build relationships but it has not paid dividends. We should have had kids committing at the end of their junior year if he was the real deal when playing in the Big East sold itself to players. If he couldn't do it then he sure as hell will not do it now!

I disagree to an extent. lavin closed the deal on a phenomenal class (on paper) his first year. After that, the BE was not the BE; everyone knew it was breaking up into some lesser form. His recruiting has been poor since then; i know we got Jordan but to me he has not played well enough to back his ranking; as has been the case with all the recruits Lavin brought in with the exception of Harrison.

His first year the Propaganda Machine was in full force. All the buzz and attention flowing. Old BE, limitless playing time, NYC, blah blah blah.

To me the fact all those kids committed to us site unseen should have been a head scratcher. Everyone but Phil and Gift committed before we played a regular season game. Amir and Pelle committed after seeing 1 exhibition game.

One would think losing 6 maybe 7 guys next year he'd be able to promise PT to big guys but the novelty has worn off and people see past the PR.

Playing time has become secondary to playing with a winning team made up of quality players. Ask Isaiah Briscoe who went from playing 35 minutes at SJ to 15-20 at Kentucky. Judging from players that we have lost out on, like Jermaine Lawrence to Rico Gathers, I predict Briscoe will be a bust at UK. B)

 

[beast of the east]

I'm wondering if anyone here has first or second hand knowledge as to what Lavin's relationship is with local area HS coaches. I know for a fact that someone such as Jay Wright maintains close area ties and returns here to participate in golf tournaments and other events with local HS coaches. His relationship with them - both current and former coaches - is sincere friendship - and is one reason very few coaches hesitate to send kids there. At University events, Wright is a pied piper, attracting hordes of students and fans, and he is patient and warm engaging each, posing for photos, signing autographs or just chatting. Sorry to bring up Wright here, but does Lavin make the effort to forge legitimate relationships with HS programs here, and how present is he around SJU and at events?

 

[1and1sju]

They should've hired Mark Jackson as soon as he was fired from Golden State.

Bring him in on a 2-year deal and let it be publicly known that he'd be looking to return to the NBA after his deal was up.

Then fill his staff with an assistant head coach in training like Antigua or Abbdelmassih who would handle the recruiting but take over when Jackson leaves.

It would immediately restore local credibility because none of these scumbag NY HS coaches and handlers would be able to push Jackson around because he already knows the landscape.

Every recruit would know that Jackson would be returning to the league so that would give them incentive to give us a serious look.

And we'd have proven local recruiters ready to take over when Jackson is ready to leave.

Too late for that as I don't think Jackson would sit out what would be 3 years at this point.

But that would've been the quickest and easiest transition that I could think of.

Good to see you posting again.

Too bad Jax pretty much despises SJU

You too.

OT: I didn't know of the friction between Jackson and the school.

Either way, it's imperative IMO that they bring in someone with local ties.

We have zero NY/NJ representation on our bench. We don't even have former players.

Can someone really say that Darrick Martin has more impact than a Jimmy Salmon or a Munch would? Rasheen Davis?

You need someone on staff who is plugged in locally. We don't have that. And with all of our Cali representation, all we've been able to muster is a kid who had a better curveball than a jumpshot.

That Cali connection got us two walk ons this year!! How many kids west of the Mississippi are we even involved with? The writing on the recruiting wall started last season when we squandered an entire class. Every single player that departed, including Marco and Max, was better than who was recruited. This season they will chase after sloppy seconds, fly to exotic locales to offer unknowns while enjoying 5* meals and hotels while recruiting and getting Motel 8 quality players. It is worth repeating, if this staff cannot replace the starting 5 with quality players (not 2 and 3* players), it will be in everyone's best interests to clean house and think BIG because this new Big East is relying on St. John's BIG time.

I think Lavin is in a tough spot. People want him to recruit locally and keep connections alive. However, the talent level locally just hasn't been there. And when it is there, we are competing with the top programs in the country, and it is hard to compete with them.

I believe Lavin recognized this, and that is why he started recruiting nationally. And the problem I think he is realizing now, and I know this will take a lot of heat, but NYC is not the lure that it once was. MSG is not the lure that it once was. Did everyone see Kentucky's midnight madness? That atmosphere was 1000X better than any game we could play at MSG.

Why go to SJU/New York City (where the bball program is pretty much an after thought) when you could go to other schools where they live and die for the sport and be treated like kings?

Like I said, I think Lavin is in a state of damned if you, damned if you don't. He wants local kids, because they will appreciate the importance and tradition of the city, but the local kids (with the exception of a few) just aren't good enough. And the non-locals just don't care enough about reviving the tradition of the program.

The local talent is just fine.

Yes, the local talent is just fine. It's not great, or anything special. It's just fine, it's just ok.

That's the point

But there's a lot of it.

Again, whether we are going after Briscoe or Emmanuel Mundiay doesn't really matter. McDonalds Allamericans are always going to be hard to get.

But the Jaren Sinas, Kamari Murphy, Omar Calhoun type players are within our reach. And aside from Moe we haven't made a strong enough push to build around those types of players.

 

[redken]

Agree with much of what you said. Btw,n Tony is a Bronx guy who played at All Hallows HS & Columbia. Yes, he was at Drexel a while, but does have good local relationships to be fair.

Tony can only get Lavin's foot in the door locally. Lavin has not been the closer fans wished he would be. It says a lot when Samir is the first early commit since 2011 under these coaches. I do not think any of the assistant coaches have pull on the national scene and Lavin is flat out too lazy and self-serving to be the closer we had hoped. He had a whole year off to build relationships but it has not paid dividends. We should have had kids committing at the end of their junior year if he was the real deal when playing in the Big East sold itself to players. If he couldn't do it then he sure as hell will not do it now!

I disagree to an extent. lavin closed the deal on a phenomenal class (on paper) his first year. After that, the BE was not the BE; everyone knew it was breaking up into some lesser form. His recruiting has been poor since then; i know we got Jordan but to me he has not played well enough to back his ranking; as has been the case with all the recruits Lavin brought in with the exception of Harrison.

Agree that the breakup of the "old" Big East and its ripple effect (e.g., less national exposure despite the Fox deal) has negatively impacted recruiting. And I'm afraid it'll continue impact it for years to come. The BE will continue to attract some kids who want to play near home or for a particular coach, but most upper-tier recruits want to compete against the best, and they want to do it regularly on the biggest national stage (ESPN and the traditional networks) and the BE just doesn't cut it. That said, I think it's critical that the BE somehow lure UConn and another perennial power program into its ranks.

 

[mjmaherjr]

I'm wondering if anyone here has first or second hand knowledge as to what Lavin's relationship is with local area HS coaches.quote]





He's in pretty tight with the coach from CTK

 

[mkras99]

I think he's gone either way. Perhaps a retreat to Bristol.