Revamped Big East
- Thread starter SJU61982
- Start date
I have no problem with it at this point in time. Right now our only strength is in numbers. Our goals as a conference should be three fold:
1). Maintain BCS bid
2). Become the biggest and baddest basketball conference around. I dont care about conference size at this point. I want qualifty bball schools like temple, memphis, xavier etc. Make the ACC an afterthought, something they're trying to do to us.
3). Hit all geographic regions and markets to make this conference a behemoth that is marketable across the country. Possibly even create our own network. Down the line maybe we are the ones poaching schools...
SJUhoopNUT
Well-known member
If we lose West Virginia, Memphis is a must to replace them. Need to regain some bball strength.
RedmanMike
Well-known member
All of these scenarior are interesting to a degree, but they really miss the bigger point. The question to ask now is this: is the Too Big East in its current mangled and soon to be unrecognizable state, the best place for St. John's? That is a much bigger question for us than whether Memphis or Navy should be in the new Too Big East.
We keep talking about the Big East as "our" conference, but that is barely the case at this point.
Everything the conference is doing now -- EVERYTHING -- will devalue the basketball product in order to prop up football.
Ask ourselves this question, do you you think anyone in the offices of the Too Big East ever asks themselves, "how will these changes impact the basketball schools?"
When was the last time anyone in the conference office asked that question?
And here is the answer to that question: Every change being contemplated right now -- every one -- is worse for the basketball schools. It involves more travel to play lesser opponents. UCF? Houston? SMU? Air Force? Are you kidding me?
And for what? We get a crappier basketball conference so the football schools can continue to split the BCS money.
Folks, it makes no sense.
The basketball schools should break away TODAY and form a nine-team basketball conference that keeps home-and-homes in tact and maintains our presence in major markets -- NY, Philly, DC, Chicago, etc.
That basketball-only conference will immediately on Day One be better than the remnants of the football schools. It will be on par with the Big 10 and PAC 12. It will have a very good TV deal. Why are we afraid of it?
We keep talking about the Big East as "our" conference, but that is barely the case at this point.
Everything the conference is doing now -- EVERYTHING -- will devalue the basketball product in order to prop up football.
Ask ourselves this question, do you you think anyone in the offices of the Too Big East ever asks themselves, "how will these changes impact the basketball schools?"
When was the last time anyone in the conference office asked that question?
And here is the answer to that question: Every change being contemplated right now -- every one -- is worse for the basketball schools. It involves more travel to play lesser opponents. UCF? Houston? SMU? Air Force? Are you kidding me?
And for what? We get a crappier basketball conference so the football schools can continue to split the BCS money.
Folks, it makes no sense.
The basketball schools should break away TODAY and form a nine-team basketball conference that keeps home-and-homes in tact and maintains our presence in major markets -- NY, Philly, DC, Chicago, etc.
That basketball-only conference will immediately on Day One be better than the remnants of the football schools. It will be on par with the Big 10 and PAC 12. It will have a very good TV deal. Why are we afraid of it?
Because (1) it would have a TV deal that is perhaps 10% of the TV deal the 2-sport conferences have (2) it would be a league that might - might - get 2 NCAA bids early on (3) four years from now it would be a 1-bid conference (4) 10 years from now it would be defunct for all intents and purposes since the two-sport schools won't be in the NCAA anymore. It's true that you might be able to dominate the NCAA tournament, if you're happy beating ODU, Richmond, Cleveland State, etc.. Just don't expect to be playing UNC, Duke, UCLA, Syracuse, Pitt, Kentucky, Lousiville, Michigan State, Indiana... you get the point.
There is no room for basketball-only conferences on the national stage. 10 years from now basketball-only schools will be basically MAAC or NEC level programs.
It continues to amaze me how overrated the "Catholic League" basketball programs are by our posters. Providence, Seton Hall, SJU, DePaul have been awful for a decade or more. The 80s were a long time ago. Marquette is a nice program. So are Georgetown, Villanova, and Notre Dame. But here's some context for you: the "Catholic League" basketball programs have a COMBINED 3 Final 4 appearances since 1990 (one each for Georgetown, Villanova, and Marquette).
In that same span, Duke, Michigan State, North Carolina, Florida, UCLA, Connecticut, and Kansas EACH have AT LEAST four Final 4 appearances (Duke and UNC 8, Mich St 6, UConn and Kansas 5, Fla and UCLA 4). Michigan State, North Carolina, and UCLA each have 3 Final 4 appearances since 2005.
Heck, Butler has two Final 4 appearances in the last two years, which means that by itself it has almost as many Final 4 appearances in the last 2 years as the entire "Catholic League" combined has in the last 20 years.
If you want SJU (and the other Catholic league schools) to remain relevant, then the only way to achieve that is to (1) stay part of the Big East and (2) for the Big East to remain competitive with the other power conferences in football.
This isn't the 80s anymore. I don't like it any better than you do, but we have to deal with it.
I fall in the middle of the last two posters. Well, actually closer to RedmanMike
I think a bball-only league can not only survive but thrive on a national stage. St. John's, Seton Hall, Providence and the like haven't been lousy because big football schools have taken everything away from them. It's because of poor-decisions, complacency and administrative indifference at each school.
But it would be suicide for the schools to break off from the Big East. If anything they have to allow fball schools to break off, thus keeping the penalty money and the rights to the conference name.
I think a bball-only league can not only survive but thrive on a national stage. St. John's, Seton Hall, Providence and the like haven't been lousy because big football schools have taken everything away from them. It's because of poor-decisions, complacency and administrative indifference at each school.
But it would be suicide for the schools to break off from the Big East. If anything they have to allow fball schools to break off, thus keeping the penalty money and the rights to the conference name.
RedmanMike
Well-known member
Lawman --
I disagree completely with all of your main points.
1) As for the size of the TV contract,we have no way of knowing for sure, but the reality is likely to be closer to my prediction of a robust contract than your 10% prediction. Will a TV deal be as big as the current BE deal? No. But remember that the current BE TV money is split between 16 (or 18 or 20 or whatever number) schools. So a nine-team conference can have a smaller TV deal and each school still does better. And the major TV markets are with the basketball schools -- NY, Philly, DC, Chicago. So no, I do not except the premise that we would lose money on TV.
2) As to the number of bids, there I think you are completely off-base. Last year the CAA got three bids, and they have had many years of multiple bids. And you think a Catholic league with SJU, Nova, Georgetown, ND, Xavier, etc. would get two or three bids? And remember we are talking about a nine-team league. Four or five bids from a conference like that -- which is very reasonable -- is a good year in a nine-team league
4) As to who we would schedule -- check out Gonzaga. They play plenty of top teams, and they are in a rinky-dink market in a conference that would be a notch-below the level of the Catholic league. And look at our schedule. Do you see any of our non-conference opponents from recent years refusing to schedule us because we are in a Catholic league and not the Too Big East? Teams schedule other teams for a variety of reasons -- and many teams schedule us because they want to play in NY and MSG. We'll still be in NY and we'll still play in MSG.
3) Your point about eventually being a one-bid league is absurd and does not need response. Unless you see the Catholic league being of a similar quality to the Ivy, Patriot and Northeast Conference... in which case we have other issues to discuss because you are delusional and need immediate help
(That last line was a joke. I don't actually think you're delusional. I simply think that you, like most folks on this site, have a silly loyalty to the Too Big East and you do not actually think through the alternatives.)
I disagree completely with all of your main points.
1) As for the size of the TV contract,we have no way of knowing for sure, but the reality is likely to be closer to my prediction of a robust contract than your 10% prediction. Will a TV deal be as big as the current BE deal? No. But remember that the current BE TV money is split between 16 (or 18 or 20 or whatever number) schools. So a nine-team conference can have a smaller TV deal and each school still does better. And the major TV markets are with the basketball schools -- NY, Philly, DC, Chicago. So no, I do not except the premise that we would lose money on TV.
2) As to the number of bids, there I think you are completely off-base. Last year the CAA got three bids, and they have had many years of multiple bids. And you think a Catholic league with SJU, Nova, Georgetown, ND, Xavier, etc. would get two or three bids? And remember we are talking about a nine-team league. Four or five bids from a conference like that -- which is very reasonable -- is a good year in a nine-team league
4) As to who we would schedule -- check out Gonzaga. They play plenty of top teams, and they are in a rinky-dink market in a conference that would be a notch-below the level of the Catholic league. And look at our schedule. Do you see any of our non-conference opponents from recent years refusing to schedule us because we are in a Catholic league and not the Too Big East? Teams schedule other teams for a variety of reasons -- and many teams schedule us because they want to play in NY and MSG. We'll still be in NY and we'll still play in MSG.
3) Your point about eventually being a one-bid league is absurd and does not need response. Unless you see the Catholic league being of a similar quality to the Ivy, Patriot and Northeast Conference... in which case we have other issues to discuss because you are delusional and need immediate help
(That last line was a joke. I don't actually think you're delusional. I simply think that you, like most folks on this site, have a silly loyalty to the Too Big East and you do not actually think through the alternatives.)
I agree with Redman Mike. I think that you have to go higher than nine teams though. You would have to create a basketball super conference. grab Xavier, Butler, Richmond, Dayton, Dusquene (Pittsburgh Market), ST. Louis (Majerus) etc. Get the number up to at least 16 and try to cover as many major markets as possible for TV purposes. Then when the power conferences break from the NCAA you cut a deal to join their organization and compete for their championship in basketball only. That could work long term. if that doesn't happen though, then the best thing for SJU is if the Big East survives some way some how.
I certainly don't want to speak for lawman but I do think he and I have similar long range views of where this is all going. Anyway, my point to all this is that the college sports landscape a decade from now is going to look nothing like it does now. There will be no March Madness as we now know it because the power conferences will have pushed all the "Cinderellas" off the court. The concentration for them now is football; mainly how can they can get ALL the money and at the same time get the NCAA out of their hair. That concentration is currently football because obviously that's where the biggest pot of money is so it is the first order of business. But eventually, they are going to go after basketball for basically the same reason, mainly, they want ALL the money and they don't want anyone policing them. As lawman said, we don't have to like it but the 1980's are dead; soon the 2010's will follow.
You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.
First, Xavier isn't in the league, and there's no way to know whether it would be interested.
Second, adding Xavier would do exactly nothing to change the fact that fans of the schools in the so-called Catholic league have an opinion of their cache that is wholly out of proportion to their actual on-court accomplishments. That you play in a conference that has schools that actually get to the Final Four with some regularity doesn't mean that you are still special if those schools aren't in your league anymore.
Third, see the below links for some information on TV contracts.
http://collegesportsinfo.com/2011/10/03/2011-television-revenue-by-conference/
ACC = $13 million per school
Mountain West = $1.3 million per school
http://ncaabbs.com/printthread.php?tid=350645
Big 10 TV revenue = $214,000,000
A-10 TV revenue = $1 million
You think the Little East, or the Catholic League, would have a TV contract more than 10% that of the Big 10? Really?
Whether we like it or not, football is king.
RedmanMike
Well-known member
Lawman --
That sound you just heard is me banging my head against the wall.
You compared the ACC TV deal to the Mountain West, and the Big 10 to the A-10. This is not an accurate comparison for about a dozen reasons, but I'll list just a few.
In the Big 10 and the ACC, all teams play both football and basketball -- therefore the TV revenues for both basketball and football are split evenly between all schools. This is not the case in the BE and never has been. So to say that the current BE situation is analogous to the ACC or Big 10 is simply not correct. Even if we stay in the Too Big East, the revenue split will continue to be unequal -- it is not anything like the Big 10 or ACC even now.
Next you compare the use the Mountain West and A-10 to show disparity between the major (read: BCS) conferences and the so-called mid-major non-BCS conferences. But to say that any TV deal with a so-called Catholic league would resemble either the Mountain West or the A-10 is silly. Any Catholic league TV deal would be much bigger than either. The Mountain West includes mainly second-and-third tier markets, and while the A-10 does include some major markets (NY, Philly, DC) it has the second-rate teams in those markets. Lets face it, I grew up in NY and live now in DC. No one cares about Fordham or GW. The Catholic league would have the best teams in three of the four biggest markets in the country (NY, Chicago, Philly) as well another top 10 market (DC), and would reach into New England as well.
I have heard these arguments dozens of times, and they make less and less sense every time.
We are now looking headlong at a conference the includes third-rate schools like UCF, SMU, Houston, and maybe East Carolina or one or two service academies. (At least the service academies offer good academics, hoops wise they offer nothing.) Big East football is currently a joke, and it will be more of a joke with these new teams replacing Pitt and Cuse. Big East basketball is currently terrific and it will get a lot worse once Pitt and Cuse leave and this new far-flung collection of jokers join. And remember, UConn is ready to bolt at any minute.
All this to preserve the Big East BCS football bid that means NOTHING to the basketball schools anyway.
The breakup of the Big East is inevitable and long overdue.
That sound you just heard is me banging my head against the wall.
You compared the ACC TV deal to the Mountain West, and the Big 10 to the A-10. This is not an accurate comparison for about a dozen reasons, but I'll list just a few.
In the Big 10 and the ACC, all teams play both football and basketball -- therefore the TV revenues for both basketball and football are split evenly between all schools. This is not the case in the BE and never has been. So to say that the current BE situation is analogous to the ACC or Big 10 is simply not correct. Even if we stay in the Too Big East, the revenue split will continue to be unequal -- it is not anything like the Big 10 or ACC even now.
Next you compare the use the Mountain West and A-10 to show disparity between the major (read: BCS) conferences and the so-called mid-major non-BCS conferences. But to say that any TV deal with a so-called Catholic league would resemble either the Mountain West or the A-10 is silly. Any Catholic league TV deal would be much bigger than either. The Mountain West includes mainly second-and-third tier markets, and while the A-10 does include some major markets (NY, Philly, DC) it has the second-rate teams in those markets. Lets face it, I grew up in NY and live now in DC. No one cares about Fordham or GW. The Catholic league would have the best teams in three of the four biggest markets in the country (NY, Chicago, Philly) as well another top 10 market (DC), and would reach into New England as well.
I have heard these arguments dozens of times, and they make less and less sense every time.
We are now looking headlong at a conference the includes third-rate schools like UCF, SMU, Houston, and maybe East Carolina or one or two service academies. (At least the service academies offer good academics, hoops wise they offer nothing.) Big East football is currently a joke, and it will be more of a joke with these new teams replacing Pitt and Cuse. Big East basketball is currently terrific and it will get a lot worse once Pitt and Cuse leave and this new far-flung collection of jokers join. And remember, UConn is ready to bolt at any minute.
All this to preserve the Big East BCS football bid that means NOTHING to the basketball schools anyway.
The breakup of the Big East is inevitable and long overdue.
I would like to see the BE remain with both FB and BB. If the quality of BB drops a little but FB improves that would be important for long term survival. The BE has plenty of quality BB schools and schools entering the BE as all sports programs will see their BB programs improve.
FranWho?
Well-known member
The service academies are only coming in for football, and will not dilute the basketball. However, I would prefer the likes of Memphis and Temple over the SMUs and Houstons of the world. But, I guess that is being done to pacify Boise State, the school that is the lynchpin on the football side. Also, I think that Louisville and Villanova are respectively opposed to Memphis and Temple, which may also be weighing on that decision.
Class of 72
Active member
Some people are going off the deep end worrying about these conference realignments! These market adjustments have been going on now for over ten years. Some are already fearing the end of March Madness, some want to retrench into the Conference of God the Almighty aka The Catholic League, some see 4 super conferences while some see six.
The fact of the matter it is not about football or basketball but about money. It is not about the student-athlete, it is about money. That money comes from ONE PLACE, television.....period. Right now every garbage football and basketball game in America is broadcast. Schools make millions while the athletes serve at the pleasure of the coaches who can pull their scholarships in favor of a higher marquee players (see Jim Calhoun and Drummond for example).
To worry about what will be FIFTEEN years down the road is insane! Ted Turner and CBS have the best attorneys in America. If people think Ted Turner is going to let some hayseed college presidents and their moronic AD's off easy when it come to March Madness, you are nuts!
CBS and Turner are paying $10.8 billion from 2011 to 2024 to carry the N.C.A.A. men’s basketball tournament. The broadcasting partners will show the next 14 versions of the tournament on four networks and carry each game nationally, ending CBS’s regional coverage of early-round games.
Maybe it is because I am now older but quite frankly I don't give a damn about 2024! All I know is the current Big East is staying as is until 2014. Any schools trying to bolt will be here until 2014 or 2015. There are only FIVE possible schools moving into these realigned conferences THIS YEAR! Since when should we worry about five schools moving on when there are another dozen the Big East can gobble up by next year?
As we are sure of death and taxes, some of these maverick schools will fade from the national spotlight once their coaches depart. It took quite a few years for Kentucky to become relevant again with Cal. UNC was heading south until they stole a coach from Kansas. Syracuse and Uconn will NEVER be the same when JB and JC leave.
Things change........let's enjoy what we have for the next couple of years. Three years from now, new schools may be dominating the basketball landscape. I hope SJ and the Big East will be a big part of it.
The fact of the matter it is not about football or basketball but about money. It is not about the student-athlete, it is about money. That money comes from ONE PLACE, television.....period. Right now every garbage football and basketball game in America is broadcast. Schools make millions while the athletes serve at the pleasure of the coaches who can pull their scholarships in favor of a higher marquee players (see Jim Calhoun and Drummond for example).
To worry about what will be FIFTEEN years down the road is insane! Ted Turner and CBS have the best attorneys in America. If people think Ted Turner is going to let some hayseed college presidents and their moronic AD's off easy when it come to March Madness, you are nuts!
CBS and Turner are paying $10.8 billion from 2011 to 2024 to carry the N.C.A.A. men’s basketball tournament. The broadcasting partners will show the next 14 versions of the tournament on four networks and carry each game nationally, ending CBS’s regional coverage of early-round games.
Maybe it is because I am now older but quite frankly I don't give a damn about 2024! All I know is the current Big East is staying as is until 2014. Any schools trying to bolt will be here until 2014 or 2015. There are only FIVE possible schools moving into these realigned conferences THIS YEAR! Since when should we worry about five schools moving on when there are another dozen the Big East can gobble up by next year?
As we are sure of death and taxes, some of these maverick schools will fade from the national spotlight once their coaches depart. It took quite a few years for Kentucky to become relevant again with Cal. UNC was heading south until they stole a coach from Kansas. Syracuse and Uconn will NEVER be the same when JB and JC leave.
Things change........let's enjoy what we have for the next couple of years. Three years from now, new schools may be dominating the basketball landscape. I hope SJ and the Big East will be a big part of it.
All I know is that Missouri's Board of Governers just gave their Chancellor the authority to choose between the Big 12 or SEC. So, as usual, the Buffoon Marinatto is is sitting on his hands waiting to see what everyone else does instead of closing the deal with the remaining schools and the schools that he supposedly wants to invite to the Big East. He said he was holding off until after Media Day to give basketball its due which I thought was a mistake. Why wait at all with the future of the conferfence hanging in the balance? Anyway, those invitiations should have been out and the deals sealed with the invited schools the next morning after the Mens BBall Media Day. Now Louisville and West Virginia are going to leave. This conference is finished!!!
How much does each BE FB school get from the conference present TV contracts, and how much does each BB school get? Anyone know?
This would put the revenue question in perspective. If the BB schools are, as I expect, already getting hosed the changes won't affect the bottom line that much.
And re Marinatto sitting on his hands the only question I ask is which moron AD/President is going to take Marinatto's call before the rest of the conferences finish their finagling? Answer, none that matter.
This would put the revenue question in perspective. If the BB schools are, as I expect, already getting hosed the changes won't affect the bottom line that much.
And re Marinatto sitting on his hands the only question I ask is which moron AD/President is going to take Marinatto's call before the rest of the conferences finish their finagling? Answer, none that matter.
Austour, you are 100% correct, and that's my point. This guy Marinatto is not leader, he's not a deal maker and he's not forward thinking the way a leader should be. The other AD's and Presidents know this and that's why they won't pick up the phone because he's not that guy. If he was they would.
As far as another poster saying that Memphis and Temple are probably off the table because of Louisville and Villanova, that's Marinatto's fault also. Because, he doesn't have the influence over the BE schools and the respect of the AD's and Presidents that he should have or that a good leader would have. FDR said that " A good leader doesn't take his people where they want to go, a good leader takes his poeple where they ought to be." Marinatto is not a good leader.
Glad you agree. I don't. I was trying to imply that the BE is in such a piss poor position right now that everyone is going to consider all their other options before they consider the BE whether it was Marinatto or anyone else of fair to middling consequence.
The BE's weak point has always been that it has BB only schools so it does no STJ fan any good to get all huffy puffy about this situation since STJ's is really part of the problem, not part of the solution, as far as the future of college athletics is concerned.
PS re the NCAA hoops contract that contract is with the NCAA, not the individual conferences or teams so, the conferences or teams are free to walk away based upon their contracts with the NCAA, and I don't think that will be a very hard thing for the BCSers to do if they get further pissed off.
The BE's weak point has always been that it has BB only schools so it does no STJ fan any good to get all huffy puffy about this situation since STJ's is really part of the problem, not part of the solution, as far as the future of college athletics is concerned.
PS re the NCAA hoops contract that contract is with the NCAA, not the individual conferences or teams so, the conferences or teams are free to walk away based upon their contracts with the NCAA, and I don't think that will be a very hard thing for the BCSers to do if they get further pissed off.