(POST-GAME) @Indiana, Wed., Nov. 17, 9p, FS-1

[monte]

We need to be honest with ourselves.

Late game offense has never been, and will never be, Coach Anderson's strength.  It's just something we're going to have to live with, IMO.

Ideally, he would have used his staff opening this summer to get someone in here who can fill that gap, although Shoes appears to be a good fit, too.

Agreed. When you are a bubble team, as we were last season and could be this season, and you play in such a tough and evenly matched conference, games like this that come down to the last shot are not uncommon, and the results could be the difference between dancing and not dancing. That last play was telegraphed. Pinzon made a bee line for Champ. That didn't fool anyone, certainly not the Indy D. They knew exactly where Pinzon was going, just like we all did.  That left Champ boxed in with no other option but to toss up a last second prayer. Again, not blaming Pinzon but this ain't a case of Monday morning QBing. This is a case, for those of us who have the ability to be objective, knowing full well that that last play should have been run much differently. 

 

[SJU61982]

If Champ passes to an open Wusu and he clunks a 3, then the board would be throwing a collective fit. Same is if Champ doesn't get a touch at all. The play was just poorly designed and executed, and really never looked like it would work. I thought we took a few seconds too long to foul on Indiana's last possession. Would have had 11 seconds instead of 8 to run something the length of the court.

The key on those last few second rushes is to get the defense on their heels. Take the extra half second and find the open man. We just didn't give that a chance to happen. We needed Shamorie Ponds last night for a length of the court drive.

Indiana did a smart thing on their last offensive possession (don't know if it was by design, or not).  They threw it to man being guarded by Posh, who had 4 fouls.  So, he had to wait for the help to come over, and foul.

 

[monte]

I'm hearing a lot of BS excuses for why Posh didnt touch the ball on that last possession. If he's a good as we all think he is, then he needs to either be the man to take that last shot, or a decoy(IE drive and dish to Champ, Smith or Pinzon). Really good players still have off games. That doesn't mean you don't use them when the game is on the line. He needed to somehow be involved in that last play. Maybe we loose anyway, but I want to loose with the players who give us the best shot of winning. And Posh is one of those 2.  

 

[GoldenLeaf]

Agree.

 

[NCJohnnie]

I know our schedule is not ideal for an NCAA bid but way too early to panic imho. If we have no bad losses (i.e. to any non-conference opponents other than Indiana & Kansas or BE bottom dwellers like Depaul & Gtown), go 12-8 in what appears to be a very solid BE and win at least one game in BE tourney we will  dance. Not saying 12-8 in BE is going to be easy but it is certainly doable for this bunch.

I'm disappointed but not deflated by last night's loss.   

 

[Knight]

The team will learn from this loss.  Better at this point in the season.  We found some reliable pieces to make us stronger and more competitive.  I give Posh a pass on last night.  He did some good things (6 rebounds, 6 assists).  I think the refs got into his head and caused him to change his game.  And as was mentioned, he was dehydrated and running on E late in the game.


 NY POST

https://nypost.com/2021/11/17/st-johns-comes-up-short-late-in-tough-loss-to-indiana/

https://nypost.com/2021/11/18/stef-...-st-johns-despite-indiana-fans-vulgar-chants/

 

[bucketshardy]

As many stated - we should have been down by way more than 12 at half, and was surprised that we tied it twice in the last 10 mins, just couldnt get over the hump. If you would have told me after the first 15 mins of that game, we would have the ball last with a chance to tie/win the game- wouldnt believe it. 

We have the horses - we are gonna win some big games in Conf. Need to root like hell for Nova / Seton Hall / UConn (uughhh) / Providence the next couple weeks - and then beat the hell out of them in conference. I can see the BE having 4 teams ranked come conf play- that is where we are going to have to do work. Don't see this group losing anymore OOC games - and i see them being in the game with 5 mins to go vs Kansas.

I'll be at UBS 3-Dec.... Hopefully UCLA or Zaga loses before then... so i dont have to keep remembering the Pitt game at MSG as the greatest game I've been to lol

 

[paultzman]

It's all been said about the game.  All I can add is we better enjoy Julian this year.  This kid epitomizes smooth class in the way he plays and conducts himself on the court.  He reminds me of Malik in so many ways.

Yes & idea Storr will just step into his shoes is ridiculous and unfair to the kid. Special guys like Julian are rare commodity here and he’ll be incredibly missed

 

[SLYFOXX1968]

Up until Butler crashed against Mich State , the BE had won all 4 games vs Big 20 . Providence , Marquette , Seton Hall and Creighton all won . Seton Hall beating Top 10 Michigan on their home court was a big Win for them .                     We had numerous opportunities to come back and win that important game and tried mightily to do that . But , close isn’t close enough .                    Our Last Play with 8 seconds left was a disaster . Let’s face it .  Poorly designed and poorly run . Who’s fault it was , doesn’t matter .   I thought Coburn might have bern injured on 1 of his times hitting the floor .  Which would account for him not  getting back into the Game .   His missing those few shots and a couple of turnovers should not have relegated him to the Bench for the rest of game .  Especially when he’s considered a quality 3 point shooter .   If healthy , he should have been on the floor in the end of the game . Without question . 

 

[MCNPA]

Agree about Champs and was wrong yesterday.  I thought he settled early for jumpers and a few to’s.  He stepped up huge the rest of the game.  Unfortunately we couldn’t get it done and pull it out.  

 

[ohiofan]

Pinzon played well, but he should not have had the ball in his hands on that last play. No way, no how. Not when we have the best PG in the Big East on the court 

I love Posh, but he had 5 turnovers and had been slipping and sliding all night long and was expected to get the ball.  Pinzon had been protecting the ball well and making great decisions with the ball all night, I have no problem with coach trusting him in that situation.  Also, If you watch the last play IU was going to double team Posh as soon as he got it, that's how Pinzon was able to run across and get it the ball so easily.  If the hand-off to Julian would have been clean he would have got a much better shot off. 

Also, Julian had a fantastic game hard to criticize him, but he has to make a better decisions in that situation as well.  When he threw that 3 pointer up he literally had 4 guys all collapse on him, when there was still 2.3 seconds left.  He had Pinzon open for 3 in the corner, he had Wusu open at the top corner of the key for 3 and Posh was at a full sprint coming from the top of the key he could have got it and got an open mid-range shot.  

With all that said hindsight is 20/20.  Would have liked a cleaner look, but rarely do you see a super clean look when you have less than 10 seconds and you have to run the length of the court, and that's at the college and pro level.  I've seen the Lakers this year get worse last second shots.

I had made a comment a few plays earlier that I felt Pinzon was rushing things. When I  saw him bringing the ball up on that last play, I immediately had concerns. He needed to move quickly, but not rush. He rushed. Not his fault, he's a freshman and it's very early in the season. He not only made a bad pass, he got too close to Champ and Champ wasn't sure what he was going to do. You could see Champ was confused. Now, maybe Posh does the same thing, but we'll never know. What we do know is that we had a chance to tie or win the game, and the decision that CMA made to put the ball in Pinzon's hands prevented that from happening. Kinda made me feel like all those situations at the end of last season when Dunn had the ball in his hands. CMA has to do a better job of calling up plays at the end of games. This scenario(busted plays) has played out way too many times. 

He literally just coached his team back from 16 down against one of the toughest places to play in college basketball.

And what games you been watching where coaches are getting their players super good looks running the full length of court with less than 10 seconds?  I watch a lot of NBA and college basketball and in those situations most of the time it doesn't look good and the offense usually gets a bad shot off, unless it's just a complete breakdown by the defense.  In those situations, there is no magical play that gets you a good shot, usually it's a get the ball in-bounds, and it to your best player by any means and let them make a play, and that's what they did.

I watched the Lakers have a similar situation a couple weeks ago, where Westbrook (a 29% 3 point shooter) ran the length of the court and took a contested 3 pointer that was way off.  And the coach that drew that up won an NBA championship about a little over a year ago.

Don't misquote me to suit your agenda. I never said "super good looks". We need decent looks, not busted plays. Simple. And my comment is not an overall indictment of CMA as a coach, so take it easy. CMA is a phenomenal coach who's kids give 100% every minute on the court. But in spite of your feelings about him, he doesn't walk on water. And, IMO, one of the things he needs to work on is his end of the game play calling. We've all seen enough of it over the past 2 years to see that it's not working efficiently.  

I usually don't join these type of debates. However, I have to say CMA's end of game play calling is a breath of fresh air compared to the previous three coaches.

 

[indyredmen97]

Jackson-Davis was the most talented player on the floor last night , and while I admire letting guys take shots at defending him, we should collapsed on him early, he rattled Soriano early and got in his head. Why Woodson didn’t keep feeding him in the paint in the second half was surprising. If IU hits free throws in the first half it’s a 20 point halftime deficit. Posh was non existent in the first half and I applaud him for his effort in the second half. Pinzon is moving too fast for his brain and if IU picked him up early on D up the court may have posed more problems, but he’s not afraid to shoot on the road, which was nice to see. Mathis got a flagrant 2 instead of a 1 because of the damage done, not the intent, it was a sick thud on the floor. JC let the game come to him, but almost waited too long, he was frustrated in the 1st half and I watched him come out for the 2nd half a lot more relaxed. Anderson really does get after the boys when they make mistakes, not a bad thing to see with this roster. We had a shot to win on the road in a hostile arena against a fan base that expects to win and rode the officials all night. Both teams will have work to do to get in the dance, and while I like the mentality that we can beat Kansas, they are way better than the teams on the floor last night.

 

[newsman13]

There are reasons Indiana was favored. 
1.  Coaching.  This has nothing to do with  Anderson.  I'm elated he's ours.  Mike Woodson was one of the best coaches in the NBA before he got the usual Knicks shaft.  Indiana is back.  They got a rare kick in the nutz last night.  They can put their steel cups away.  There won't be many more.  Thanks to Woodson, we could tie the game on a couple of occasions before being knocked back.  That last play was all Woodson's defense...from taking time off the clock by making sure his guy wouldn't be fouled after a few ticks...to forcing us into desperation with eight seconds left.  Remember, we didn't have an extra time out. 
2.  The raucous home crowd in Bloomington was tough to handle in the first half.  Our guys tuned it out in the second half and outscored Indiana by ten points. 
3.  The refs got caught up in all the noise and weren't able to call an impartial game.  I won't go as far as to call this a ref job...but I wouldn't be too far off.

That the Johnnies came back should tell you this is a good team.  Stop worrying about March and bubbles.  There are some good wins ahead...possibly including Kansas.  

 

[monte]

Jackson-Davis was the most talented player on the floor last night , and while I admire letting guys take shots at defending him, we should collapsed on him early, he rattled Soriano early and got in his head. Why Woodson didn’t keep feeding him in the paint in the second half was surprising. If IU hits free throws in the first half it’s a 20 point halftime deficit. Posh was non existent in the first half and I applaud him for his effort in the second half. Pinzon is moving too fast for his brain and if IU picked him up early on D up the court may have posed more problems, but he’s not afraid to shoot on the road, which was nice to see. Mathis got a flagrant 2 instead of a 1 because of the damage done, not the intent, it was a sick thud on the floor. JC let the game come to him, but almost waited too long, he was frustrated in the 1st half and I watched him come out for the 2nd half a lot more relaxed. Anderson really does get after the boys when they make mistakes, not a bad thing to see with this roster. We had a shot to win on the road in a hostile arena against a fan base that expects to win and rode the officials all night. Both teams will have work to do to get in the dance, and while I like the mentality that we can beat Kansas, they are way better than the teams on the floor last night.

The single most astute and objective analysis I heard so far. 

 

[monte]

Pinzon played well, but he should not have had the ball in his hands on that last play. No way, no how. Not when we have the best PG in the Big East on the court 

I love Posh, but he had 5 turnovers and had been slipping and sliding all night long and was expected to get the ball.  Pinzon had been protecting the ball well and making great decisions with the ball all night, I have no problem with coach trusting him in that situation.  Also, If you watch the last play IU was going to double team Posh as soon as he got it, that's how Pinzon was able to run across and get it the ball so easily.  If the hand-off to Julian would have been clean he would have got a much better shot off. 

Also, Julian had a fantastic game hard to criticize him, but he has to make a better decisions in that situation as well.  When he threw that 3 pointer up he literally had 4 guys all collapse on him, when there was still 2.3 seconds left.  He had Pinzon open for 3 in the corner, he had Wusu open at the top corner of the key for 3 and Posh was at a full sprint coming from the top of the key he could have got it and got an open mid-range shot.  

With all that said hindsight is 20/20.  Would have liked a cleaner look, but rarely do you see a super clean look when you have less than 10 seconds and you have to run the length of the court, and that's at the college and pro level.  I've seen the Lakers this year get worse last second shots.

I had made a comment a few plays earlier that I felt Pinzon was rushing things. When I  saw him bringing the ball up on that last play, I immediately had concerns. He needed to move quickly, but not rush. He rushed. Not his fault, he's a freshman and it's very early in the season. He not only made a bad pass, he got too close to Champ and Champ wasn't sure what he was going to do. You could see Champ was confused. Now, maybe Posh does the same thing, but we'll never know. What we do know is that we had a chance to tie or win the game, and the decision that CMA made to put the ball in Pinzon's hands prevented that from happening. Kinda made me feel like all those situations at the end of last season when Dunn had the ball in his hands. CMA has to do a better job of calling up plays at the end of games. This scenario(busted plays) has played out way too many times. 

He literally just coached his team back from 16 down against one of the toughest places to play in college basketball.

And what games you been watching where coaches are getting their players super good looks running the full length of court with less than 10 seconds?  I watch a lot of NBA and college basketball and in those situations most of the time it doesn't look good and the offense usually gets a bad shot off, unless it's just a complete breakdown by the defense.  In those situations, there is no magical play that gets you a good shot, usually it's a get the ball in-bounds, and it to your best player by any means and let them make a play, and that's what they did.

I watched the Lakers have a similar situation a couple weeks ago, where Westbrook (a 29% 3 point shooter) ran the length of the court and took a contested 3 pointer that was way off.  And the coach that drew that up won an NBA championship about a little over a year ago.

Don't misquote me to suit your agenda. I never said "super good looks". We need decent looks, not busted plays. Simple. And my comment is not an overall indictment of CMA as a coach, so take it easy. CMA is a phenomenal coach who's kids give 100% every minute on the court. But in spite of your feelings about him, he doesn't walk on water. And, IMO, one of the things he needs to work on is his end of the game play calling. We've all seen enough of it over the past 2 years to see that it's not working efficiently.  

I usually don't join these type of debates. However, I have to say CMA's end of game play calling is a breath of fresh air compared to the previous three coaches.

CMA is light years ahead of our previous 3 coaches OF, but that still doesn't change the fact that his play calling at the end of close games leaves something to be desired. I trust he and the staff see what some of us see, and are working on some more effective plays for our next close game. 

 

[MakingPlays]

Pinzon played well, but he should not have had the ball in his hands on that last play. No way, no how. Not when we have the best PG in the Big East on the court 

I love Posh, but he had 5 turnovers and had been slipping and sliding all night long and was expected to get the ball.  Pinzon had been protecting the ball well and making great decisions with the ball all night, I have no problem with coach trusting him in that situation.  Also, If you watch the last play IU was going to double team Posh as soon as he got it, that's how Pinzon was able to run across and get it the ball so easily.  If the hand-off to Julian would have been clean he would have got a much better shot off. 

Also, Julian had a fantastic game hard to criticize him, but he has to make a better decisions in that situation as well.  When he threw that 3 pointer up he literally had 4 guys all collapse on him, when there was still 2.3 seconds left.  He had Pinzon open for 3 in the corner, he had Wusu open at the top corner of the key for 3 and Posh was at a full sprint coming from the top of the key he could have got it and got an open mid-range shot.  

With all that said hindsight is 20/20.  Would have liked a cleaner look, but rarely do you see a super clean look when you have less than 10 seconds and you have to run the length of the court, and that's at the college and pro level.  I've seen the Lakers this year get worse last second shots.

I had made a comment a few plays earlier that I felt Pinzon was rushing things. When I  saw him bringing the ball up on that last play, I immediately had concerns. He needed to move quickly, but not rush. He rushed. Not his fault, he's a freshman and it's very early in the season. He not only made a bad pass, he got too close to Champ and Champ wasn't sure what he was going to do. You could see Champ was confused. Now, maybe Posh does the same thing, but we'll never know. What we do know is that we had a chance to tie or win the game, and the decision that CMA made to put the ball in Pinzon's hands prevented that from happening. Kinda made me feel like all those situations at the end of last season when Dunn had the ball in his hands. CMA has to do a better job of calling up plays at the end of games. This scenario(busted plays) has played out way too many times. 

He literally just coached his team back from 16 down against one of the toughest places to play in college basketball.

And what games you been watching where coaches are getting their players super good looks running the full length of court with less than 10 seconds?  I watch a lot of NBA and college basketball and in those situations most of the time it doesn't look good and the offense usually gets a bad shot off, unless it's just a complete breakdown by the defense.  In those situations, there is no magical play that gets you a good shot, usually it's a get the ball in-bounds, and it to your best player by any means and let them make a play, and that's what they did.

I watched the Lakers have a similar situation a couple weeks ago, where Westbrook (a 29% 3 point shooter) ran the length of the court and took a contested 3 pointer that was way off.  And the coach that drew that up won an NBA championship about a little over a year ago.

Don't misquote me to suit your agenda. I never said "super good looks". We need decent looks, not busted plays. Simple. And my comment is not an overall indictment of CMA as a coach, so take it easy. CMA is a phenomenal coach who's kids give 100% every minute on the court. But in spite of your feelings about him, he doesn't walk on water. And, IMO, one of the things he needs to work on is his end of the game play calling. We've all seen enough of it over the past 2 years to see that it's not working efficiently.  

WTF are you talking about man?  So, because somebody disagrees with you they have an agenda?  Nobody is acting like anyone walks on water. Get over yourself dude, you're just a know it all, and you do this to every poster that disagrees with you, and try to change the subject and go personal, it's very childish and immature.   Pinzon played a great game with 0 turnovers, and was a major part in the comeback, coach trusted him as the 2nd best ball handler on the team to get it to Julian, he did that, and it didn't work out.  Those are the facts.  If that's an agenda for pointing that out, guilty as charged.  Have a good day.

 

[MakingPlays]

Anderson does many things well as a coach, but halfcourt offense and designing got-to-get-a-good-look plays are not at the top of his skill set.  However I had no problem with the last play. He probably figured Posh would be pressured immediately and that Pinzon would get more of a free run, which turned out to be correct.  Posh was also not exactly lights out handling the ball last night.  I believe the idea was for PInzon to get the ball to Champ and then set a screen for the 3 to win the game.  Unfortunately the freshman rushed a bit and threw a bad pass at Champ's feet.

 

This right here.  You broke this down better than I did in my post.  This is exactly what happened and the thought process behind it.  I just hope you don't get accused of having an agenda for saying it. /media/kunena/emoticons/tongue.png

 

[paultzman]

Classy kid and competitor;

https://twitter.com/poshalexander/status/1461376398816382986?s=21

 

[beast of the east]

Yardstick game.  We can play with good teams, even away.  We didn't fold when we played a pretty bad first half.  All good things there.   Defensive stops weren't there at the end when needed most.    Pinzon likely had the ball so Posh would be option 2 if Champ was guarded heavily.  If Pinzon made a bad choice, well, that's how freshmen become players.  When you come down to one play at Assembly Hall and the last shot going in the difference between a W and L, you didn't do badly.  I prefer these games to 12-0 OOC starts because early on, you get a sense of where we need to improve to be competitive.

 

 

[Ray Morgan]

I understand the refs blew some calls. I could live with the Mathis call. It looked ugly and resulted in an injury. I get the feeling Mathis is going to drive a lot of us nuts this season. Some great athletic plays followed by some ill-advised 3s and reckless drives on offense and gambles on defense. In the end, we still went to the line a lot and had the game in our hands in the last possession. Home town refereeing is part of the game. Have to overcome it on the road. I liked when one of the tv guys pointed out that Smith got fouled 3 times on one pay without getting a call.

For playing his first road game in a super hostile environment, I thought Pinzon was excellent. Yes, a bit out of control. But so was Posh. Pinzon has major upside, as does Stanley. If each had a college season under their belt, maybe we are a top 20 team. Unfortunately, our best player will be gone just when they have that year of experience.