New Graphic Identity and Brand Story
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Pleasedontbanmeagain
Member
The term "John" or "Johnny" referring to the bathroom is an old term. You barely ever hear it anymore. I wouldn't worry too much about those connotations. Johnnies may not be the best name, but it's one of the few things we are identified immediately by. What would you choose?
Pleasedontbanmeagain
Member
Is this meant as a joke?
jc1305us
Member
I would go back to Redmen. Since the school is too scared to offend anyone, (God forbid!) we should keep it as is. It looks beyond bush league to keep changing the name. If someone can find me a real Native American Indian that is upset by our old nickname I will eat my hat. Political correctness will be the death of us all.
westchesterjoe
Active member
If I recall correctly, way back when political correctness wasn't in anyone's vocabulary, the term Redmen was coined by journalists who reported on the team and called them , Redmen, because of their Red/White uniforms. Yes, the Indian mascot did evolve and, many schools, pro teams, etc adopted Indian symbols, not to defame the America Indian but, to recognize the bravery and tenacity that the Indian culture demonstrated, despite being so abused by our gov't and forefathers.
The term JOHNNIES is not meant as a portable bathroom to everyone.. I remember the late, great John Condon, play by play announcer for MSG for over 40 years, using Johnnies to give the score update after every basket, by either team.. For example, if Fordham has just scored a basket to take the lead, he would say, " the Rams lead 6 to 4," or whatever the score was."
Same thing with us, he would use the terms, Redmen or , Johnnies interchangeably. He would say, for example," that was Chris Mullin, the Johnnies lead 64 to 59." Or, the Redmen lead ,20 to 18." Condon was a great announcer.
While I would love to see REDMEN, REINSTATED, it will not happen. Too much BS to do so. But, I'd rather be the St John Reds, than Redstorm.. The Cincy REDS today were really the Cincy REDLEGS, until it was shortened.
Redstorm will never be acceptable to old line Alums, like me. It was an appeasement made robotic like by many schools , due to political propaganda..
I'm a REDMEN, not a RedSTORM. Always will be.
The term JOHNNIES is not meant as a portable bathroom to everyone.. I remember the late, great John Condon, play by play announcer for MSG for over 40 years, using Johnnies to give the score update after every basket, by either team.. For example, if Fordham has just scored a basket to take the lead, he would say, " the Rams lead 6 to 4," or whatever the score was."
Same thing with us, he would use the terms, Redmen or , Johnnies interchangeably. He would say, for example," that was Chris Mullin, the Johnnies lead 64 to 59." Or, the Redmen lead ,20 to 18." Condon was a great announcer.
While I would love to see REDMEN, REINSTATED, it will not happen. Too much BS to do so. But, I'd rather be the St John Reds, than Redstorm.. The Cincy REDS today were really the Cincy REDLEGS, until it was shortened.
Redstorm will never be acceptable to old line Alums, like me. It was an appeasement made robotic like by many schools , due to political propaganda..
I'm a REDMEN, not a RedSTORM. Always will be.
Pleasedontbanmeagain
Member
It's a good point, but sadly the PC crowd will still say it conjures stereotypes of Indians...it's a battle we can't win. No more Redmen ever again. And by the way, most of our ancestors had absolutely nothing to do with what happened to the Indians here...most were in Europe.
beast of the east
Active member
I always felt that if the school was sincere in their name change, then perhaps along with the name change they would have create some coursework in Native American studies, or maybe even a Native American cultural center instead of the Asian center. At the very least, some endowed scholarships for native American students. Without any of this, the name change was a hollow gesture, more yielding to PC times to avoid controversy than a real concern for the plight of Native Americans.
Pleasedontbanmeagain
Member
Can we ever get over the whole "da white man stole mah land and everything was just peachy until da white man came"? It just gets very old very fast after hundreds of years.
beast of the east
Active member
Joe,
I do not claim to be an expert in these matters or anything close to it. I do understand your sentiment, which I will not try to re-state since you've expressed it clearly and simply.
However, do you realize that if you are a living Native American (NA) born before 1924, you were NOT considered a US citizen at birth. Do you realize that in the early 1900s NAs were considered wards of the state, and their travel was severely restricted? This means that a NA had to obtain a pass in order to leave a reservation. If they overstayed the permit, the military was called to detain them and return them to the reservation. The civil rights act of 1866, defined by the 14th amendment, granted citizenship to all people born in the US, but excluded NAs. What an affront, to be denied citizenship in a land that your forbearers lived for thousands of years.
Roll this forward to the 1940s. Imagine being a heroic American in WWII, even raising the flag at Iwo Jima, and returning home to be legally denied hotel lodging, eating in whites only restaurants. Imagine that wonderful NYC communities like Garden City and Forest Hills Garden had exercised the right until the 1948 restrictive covenants which did not allow Jews, African Americans, or NA's the right to purchase a home or live in those neighborhoods. The after effects of these covenants exist to this very day. Think of how few Jewish people live in Garden City.
Joe, imagine that you can visit your father's grave, your grandfather, great grandfather, and further if you wished to find and explore. But many NA ancestral burial grounds were desecrated without thought as America developed cities and towns coast to coast. It's no wonder then, when a well meaning white police officer on eastern LI recently found human remains while digging the foundation for a garage on his property, that Shinnecocks tried UNSUCCESSFULLY to have the property declared theirs to restore ancestral burial grounds.
NA's remain the poorest of Americans. Today there are 564 federally recognized tribes, about 2 million NA's in this country, and about 800,000 living on reservations. FORTY PERCENT of Native Americans STILL live on land to which their ancestors were forced to accept as part of treaties signed to hand over much of what is the United states. The land reserved for NA use, came to be known as reservations. There are 300 of those in the US today, meaning not all recognized tribes even own a reservation. Conditions on those reservations are often deplorable.
So, yea, it's very easy for us to say, "Hey, get over it. You have rights now. Join the ranks of educated successful Americans." If present conditions for many NAs contain answers, it isn't all that easy.
I do not claim to be an expert in these matters or anything close to it. I do understand your sentiment, which I will not try to re-state since you've expressed it clearly and simply.
However, do you realize that if you are a living Native American (NA) born before 1924, you were NOT considered a US citizen at birth. Do you realize that in the early 1900s NAs were considered wards of the state, and their travel was severely restricted? This means that a NA had to obtain a pass in order to leave a reservation. If they overstayed the permit, the military was called to detain them and return them to the reservation. The civil rights act of 1866, defined by the 14th amendment, granted citizenship to all people born in the US, but excluded NAs. What an affront, to be denied citizenship in a land that your forbearers lived for thousands of years.
Roll this forward to the 1940s. Imagine being a heroic American in WWII, even raising the flag at Iwo Jima, and returning home to be legally denied hotel lodging, eating in whites only restaurants. Imagine that wonderful NYC communities like Garden City and Forest Hills Garden had exercised the right until the 1948 restrictive covenants which did not allow Jews, African Americans, or NA's the right to purchase a home or live in those neighborhoods. The after effects of these covenants exist to this very day. Think of how few Jewish people live in Garden City.
Joe, imagine that you can visit your father's grave, your grandfather, great grandfather, and further if you wished to find and explore. But many NA ancestral burial grounds were desecrated without thought as America developed cities and towns coast to coast. It's no wonder then, when a well meaning white police officer on eastern LI recently found human remains while digging the foundation for a garage on his property, that Shinnecocks tried UNSUCCESSFULLY to have the property declared theirs to restore ancestral burial grounds.
NA's remain the poorest of Americans. Today there are 564 federally recognized tribes, about 2 million NA's in this country, and about 800,000 living on reservations. FORTY PERCENT of Native Americans STILL live on land to which their ancestors were forced to accept as part of treaties signed to hand over much of what is the United states. The land reserved for NA use, came to be known as reservations. There are 300 of those in the US today, meaning not all recognized tribes even own a reservation. Conditions on those reservations are often deplorable.
So, yea, it's very easy for us to say, "Hey, get over it. You have rights now. Join the ranks of educated successful Americans." If present conditions for many NAs contain answers, it isn't all that easy.
Pleasedontbanmeagain
Member
I'm not totally heartless to their plight, they obviously went through a lot but to be honest everyone has a story. The Japanese were in internment camps, the Irish had "Irish need not apply" signs in the windows of stores. The Italians were considered non-whites until fairly recently and my uncle even had to change schools because he was called a guinea so much. Blacks were enslaved, whites were enslaved, everyone has been through adversity. To also clear things up, Native Americans may have lived on the land that we live on today, but it was never the United States of America. They never had their own country, in fact they didn't believe in borders...just general areas of land with different tribes who by the way were extremely violent with each other. The assertion that there were birds chirping and little Indian kids running around singing kumbaya until the white man came and ruined everything is just a load of crap. Many Indians willfully sold their land to whites from Europe and betrayed other tribes. At some point this country has to get over this stuff. We are talking about the 1800's and it's 2013. The only way to get over something is to keep it in the past. Sure, remember it always, but move on. Also, many people who live here today have families who only came over to America from the very early 1900's to as recently as the 1950's or 1960's and were still in Europe when Indians were being slaughtered. The concept of original sin (not talking religiously but literally) is so stupid, you can't blame unborns for what their ancestors might have done even if they were around at that time. The bottom line is, everyone has had a history of adversity at some point. Some people move on, some people harp on the past 100+ years ago. Quite frankly, the successful ones are often the ones who choose to move on.
beast of the east
Active member
I'm not going to beat you up on this. I agree with your point that you cannot legislate success, you cannot correct past wrongs by throwing money at it, and you can't lift the fortunes of an entire ethnic or racial group by making things easier for them without one important factor. Afflicted marginalized people, whether African American, Latino, Asian, whatever, must respond with hard work and diligence in order to break out from the poverty or other social ill that afflicts their group in disproportionate numbers. I am guessing that is your point, and I'd agree with it.