Fire Lavin!

[logen]

He's not getting fired guys, so can we put this to rest?

So far, this has been a disappointing year. We all thought the team was going to take a big step forward, but ignored the fact that it is seriously flawed. These guys are not particularly good at anything (poor court vision, awful shooting, bad fundamentals in the paint). Perhaps they'll get better as the season progresses. After Villanova, we have a really weak stretch where this team can pick up some W's. Not going to really help our tournament chances, but at least the losing streak will end.

Back to Lavin ... let's stop pretending we are one of these schools that hires and fires coaches because of expectations. We last won a tournament game in the year 2000. It's 2014. SJU has been a bottom feeder program for a long, long time now. There's a reason why Creighton will draw 20k to their games and we won't even pack MSG against Villanova on Saturday. Although Lavin is a flawed coach, he's the best shot we got.

He is NOT the best shot we got. Far from it.

All of you Lavin apologists know that he is nothing more than a PR guy.

We are in the biggest market and our AD knows this. Who better than a used car salesman to bring attention to us.

But the time is up. His job requirement is to get wins and get us to the tournament.

Instead of playing coach, he's out here playing as some executive.

Clearly we go into games with no gameplan. So if there's no coaching and all he does is recruit, where are the 2014 recruits?

If it wasn't for Chiles, I don't even know if we'd have half of our signings.

I'm not going to sit here and argue with you because there isn't really a point. The proof is in the W/L record.

The fact of the matter is most fans are living in the '80s. We don't have facilities of our own and by comparison our fan base is pretty pathetic. A big name coach isn't going to suddenly decide "Hey, you know what? St. John's seems like a great choice." I'm not saying Steve is the best coach out there. Far from it. His reputation of being a better recruiter than he is a coach is valid. But he did winat UCLA (and his 1st year at SJU). He does have a history. And I'm sorry, but our program has been a joke for a really long time now, so we have to accept the fact that this rebuild could take a little longer than we all want.

I'll disagree about fans living in the 80s as it is probably just older alumni.

In 2010, we wre able to pack MSG with people who didn't even follow college basketball or SJU in particular because it was a good product.

If you tell me that Lavin was responsible for that, then fine.

But also realize that he must be responsible for what's going on right now as this is HIS "prized" recruiting class 3 years later. How long does it take to rebuild when you score back to back Top 5 recruiting classes?

And 3 years later without one win vs. Georgetown, Syracuse, Louisville, Villanova and any quality team worth mentioning. Not one.

And he has the audacity to tell the fans to wait until February while he strolls out lineup after lineup without a clue what to do on the floor?

MSG is a billion dollar facility.

Coaches would kill to be able to call that their home court.

It is Lavin's responsibility to put a quality product on that floor. If he can't, then he needs to step aside for someone who can.

Hey I'll tell you a couple of things -

#1: I don't live in the 80s. I live here. It's pathetic that we bring up the 80s every 5th post, but its really our most recent continuous run at success other than the brief Artest run.

#2: The Garden wasn't packed in 2010, except when an opponent packed the place. You have no clue what it was like when we OWNED the place. You couldn't hear the person next to you, and you went home every single game with a sore throat. When the Garden roared then, it was 95% SJU fans - even the casual Wall Street fan got caught up in it and made SJU his dinner date - it was THAT BIG.

#3: If you were around for 2009, there were some pretty smart basketball people thinking we should just drop down to A10, or some other mid major conference because SJU basketball was finished. DONE AS A PROGRAM. Like NYU, CCNY, Manhattan, or any program that was once a very good program. Then Lavin came along and restored the program almost immediately - Not even a wait period to nail big time recruits, and before a single one of his guys stepped foot on the court, we were winning exciting games, ranked, and headed to Denver.

So yea, we are all impatient for the full restoration of the program. College basketball has changed radically since 2002. No longer is it 40 or 50 schools competing for a top 25 ranking. Now any decent mid major can make a lot of noise, get TV and internet coverage, and climb into the rankings more easily than ever before. Tis isn't an excuse. Win or lose, there will be a tomorrow, and if they lose, I'm not running into redmen.com to pout like I'm 12. It's still the only product in town I'd root for with as much passion, so after 6 frigging ridiculous years of Malik Stiths being our big recruit, for now I still have patience, once the school showed they wanted a real program, and not a clean program run by mini-me.

I do understand your position but I also think you are missing the point of the criticism. I think the vast majority of it comes from the way this team plays and is coached. From a players perspective I see a primarily selfish group of players looking for theirs on offense with none of them really going out and busting it on defense. From a coaching perspective, the team looks unprepared, with no role definition and the ridiculous line-ups and substitutions. I can accept the losing, if the losing comes with legitimate effort. I am not saying guys are consciously dogging it but I defy anyone to tell me any player that plays 100% for 40 minutes, one that never takes plays off; one who plays like a Matt Brust or a David Cain, two borderline talented players who got the most out of what they had. As for coaching, I find it even difficult to comment because it is so poor as to be mind boggling. Why we recruited the type of players we did and not force tempo by pressing and scrambling is beyond me. If we know we can't shoot or play half court basketball how can a coaching staff not see that? Anyway, to summarize, I am frustrated and critical because of those things not our record.

 

[simplyred]

I think the hardest working guys on the team are Phil and Gift. Obviously, they aren't doing it for 40 minutes. I also think Dlo plays hard the entire time he is on the floor. His defense (worst on the team last year) has improved dramatically this year.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot to mention Dom. I take it for granted because he has always done it.

 

[lawmanfan]

I do understand your position but I also think you are missing the point of the criticism. I think the vast majority of it comes from the way this team plays and is coached. From a players perspective I see a primarily selfish group of players looking for theirs on offense with none of them really going out and busting it on defense. From a coaching perspective, the team looks unprepared, with no role definition and the ridiculous line-ups and substitutions. I can accept the losing, if the losing comes with legitimate effort. I am not saying guys are consciously dogging it but I defy anyone to tell me any player that plays 100% for 40 minutes, one that never takes plays off; one who plays like a Matt Brust or a David Cain, two borderline talented players who got the most out of what they had. As for coaching, I find it even difficult to comment because it is so poor as to be mind boggling. Why we recruited the type of players we did and not force tempo by pressing and scrambling is beyond me. If we know we can't shoot or play half court basketball how can a coaching staff not see that? Anyway, to summarize, I am frustrated and critical because of those things not our record.

Me too, but I have no criticism of the effort put out by Pointer, Harrison or Greene. All three of them give you their best effort every minute they are on the floor.

I think that the perception of a lack of effort by some of the players is because they are thinking instead of playing. IMHO that's because not many of them know what their roles are.

 

[NYCRedmen]

Before anyone goes crazy on me let me say one thing, I'm simply posing this question b/c I think it's an interesting one. I'm not taking sides on the coach Lavin debate just yet (although I may after Saturday lol). My question is this, considering Lavin's overall coaching record, does he deserve credit for his "success" at UCLA, or was that simply him having better talent and assistant coaches? His first 6 seasons there he won 21 or more games each year and had 6 straight NCAA appearances, he beat the #1 ranked team in the country in four consecutive years, and then he comes here and wins 20 plus games with players he didn't even recruit (after having been away from coaching for a few years). I didn't really follow his UCLA teams but I know they had quite a few guys who played in the NBA. Was it good coaching, until his last season there, or was it bad coaching b/c considering what he had talent wise, his teams should have achieved more? Just curious as to what people think.

 

[simplyred]

I'll take here what he did at UCLA...in a heartbeat. UCLA fans feel that he shoul have gone further with the talent he had. Therefore, he is a lousy coach. Fans here have turned on him rather suddenly. I haven't given up on this season or on Lavin's ability to turn us into a consistent winner. Then again, I am the eternal optimist.

One criticism I do have is that i feel that we always adjust to playing the other team's game rather than dictate the style of play that we want to play. Fordham is the only one of our recent games where we dictated tempo and style of play. Even against Syracuse (a game that we could/should have won) they controlled tempo in the first half and the last 5 minutes of the game. Xavier, after the first few minutes, and G'town from the opening tip, did the same. I'm hoping, against Nova, we can play our game. The thing is, however, I think they will try to play fast and that is what we should be playing too. We should not be trying to turn it into a half-court contest.

 

[SJUISBACK]

Before anyone goes crazy on me let me say one thing, I'm simply posing this question b/c I think it's an interesting one. I'm not taking sides on the coach Lavin debate just yet (although I may after Saturday lol). My question is this, considering Lavin's overall coaching record, does he deserve credit for his "success" at UCLA, or was that simply him having better talent and assistant coaches? His first 6 seasons there he won 21 or more games each year and had 6 straight NCAA appearances, he beat the #1 ranked team in the country in four consecutive years, and then he comes here and wins 20 plus games with players he didn't even recruit (after having been away from coaching for a few years). I didn't really follow his UCLA teams but I know they had quite a few guys who played in the NBA. Was it good coaching, until his last season there, or was it bad coaching b/c considering what he had talent wise, his teams should have achieved more? Just curious as to what people think.

I won`t answer the UCLA question, but here a quote from Baron Davis (his best player): " We are the only team in history to reach the NCAA without a coach."
Yeah he won 20plus with norms kids, but who was coaching the sidelines the next year with 6freshmen and no depth and won 13 and 6 in the BE. which was a pretty impressive job considering the team he had to coach with.

I didn`t answer your question, but it`s pretty obvious

 

[ErickTheRed]

The same Baron Davis that said he was abducted by aliens in nevada? ok lol

 

[Moose]

The same Baron Davis that said he was abducted by aliens in nevada? ok lol

Also the same Baron Davis who visits Lavin often and helps in recruiting.
Maybe Lavin was abducted by aliens too?

 

[beast of the east]

He's not getting fired guys, so can we put this to rest?

So far, this has been a disappointing year. We all thought the team was going to take a big step forward, but ignored the fact that it is seriously flawed. These guys are not particularly good at anything (poor court vision, awful shooting, bad fundamentals in the paint). Perhaps they'll get better as the season progresses. After Villanova, we have a really weak stretch where this team can pick up some W's. Not going to really help our tournament chances, but at least the losing streak will end.

Back to Lavin ... let's stop pretending we are one of these schools that hires and fires coaches because of expectations. We last won a tournament game in the year 2000. It's 2014. SJU has been a bottom feeder program for a long, long time now. There's a reason why Creighton will draw 20k to their games and we won't even pack MSG against Villanova on Saturday. Although Lavin is a flawed coach, he's the best shot we got.

He is NOT the best shot we got. Far from it.

All of you Lavin apologists know that he is nothing more than a PR guy.

We are in the biggest market and our AD knows this. Who better than a used car salesman to bring attention to us.

But the time is up. His job requirement is to get wins and get us to the tournament.

Instead of playing coach, he's out here playing as some executive.

Clearly we go into games with no gameplan. So if there's no coaching and all he does is recruit, where are the 2014 recruits?

If it wasn't for Chiles, I don't even know if we'd have half of our signings.

I'm not going to sit here and argue with you because there isn't really a point. The proof is in the W/L record.

The fact of the matter is most fans are living in the '80s. We don't have facilities of our own and by comparison our fan base is pretty pathetic. A big name coach isn't going to suddenly decide "Hey, you know what? St. John's seems like a great choice." I'm not saying Steve is the best coach out there. Far from it. His reputation of being a better recruiter than he is a coach is valid. But he did winat UCLA (and his 1st year at SJU). He does have a history. And I'm sorry, but our program has been a joke for a really long time now, so we have to accept the fact that this rebuild could take a little longer than we all want.

I'll disagree about fans living in the 80s as it is probably just older alumni.

In 2010, we wre able to pack MSG with people who didn't even follow college basketball or SJU in particular because it was a good product.

If you tell me that Lavin was responsible for that, then fine.

But also realize that he must be responsible for what's going on right now as this is HIS "prized" recruiting class 3 years later. How long does it take to rebuild when you score back to back Top 5 recruiting classes?

And 3 years later without one win vs. Georgetown, Syracuse, Louisville, Villanova and any quality team worth mentioning. Not one.

And he has the audacity to tell the fans to wait until February while he strolls out lineup after lineup without a clue what to do on the floor?

MSG is a billion dollar facility.

Coaches would kill to be able to call that their home court.

It is Lavin's responsibility to put a quality product on that floor. If he can't, then he needs to step aside for someone who can.

Hey I'll tell you a couple of things -

#1: I don't live in the 80s. I live here. It's pathetic that we bring up the 80s every 5th post, but its really our most recent continuous run at success other than the brief Artest run.

#2: The Garden wasn't packed in 2010, except when an opponent packed the place. You have no clue what it was like when we OWNED the place. You couldn't hear the person next to you, and you went home every single game with a sore throat. When the Garden roared then, it was 95% SJU fans - even the casual Wall Street fan got caught up in it and made SJU his dinner date - it was THAT BIG.

#3: If you were around for 2009, there were some pretty smart basketball people thinking we should just drop down to A10, or some other mid major conference because SJU basketball was finished. DONE AS A PROGRAM. Like NYU, CCNY, Manhattan, or any program that was once a very good program. Then Lavin came along and restored the program almost immediately - Not even a wait period to nail big time recruits, and before a single one of his guys stepped foot on the court, we were winning exciting games, ranked, and headed to Denver.

So yea, we are all impatient for the full restoration of the program. College basketball has changed radically since 2002. No longer is it 40 or 50 schools competing for a top 25 ranking. Now any decent mid major can make a lot of noise, get TV and internet coverage, and climb into the rankings more easily than ever before. Tis isn't an excuse. Win or lose, there will be a tomorrow, and if they lose, I'm not running into redmen.com to pout like I'm 12. It's still the only product in town I'd root for with as much passion, so after 6 frigging ridiculous years of Malik Stiths being our big recruit, for now I still have patience, once the school showed they wanted a real program, and not a clean program run by mini-me.

I do understand your position but I also think you are missing the point of the criticism. I think the vast majority of it comes from the way this team plays and is coached. From a players perspective I see a primarily selfish group of players looking for theirs on offense with none of them really going out and busting it on defense. From a coaching perspective, the team looks unprepared, with no role definition and the ridiculous line-ups and substitutions. I can accept the losing, if the losing comes with legitimate effort. I am not saying guys are consciously dogging it but I defy anyone to tell me any player that plays 100% for 40 minutes, one that never takes plays off; one who plays like a Matt Brust or a David Cain, two borderline talented players who got the most out of what they had. As for coaching, I find it even difficult to comment because it is so poor as to be mind boggling. Why we recruited the type of players we did and not force tempo by pressing and scrambling is beyond me. If we know we can't shoot or play half court basketball how can a coaching staff not see that? Anyway, to summarize, I am frustrated and critical because of those things not our record.

Nearly every single aspect of the team has been scrutinized and criticized over the past couple of weeks. A lot of the criticism has validity, except to fire Lavin at this point. When you stink, it's hard to figure out where the smell is coming from..

I look at it this way: Did you ever play baseball? When a guy isn't hitting, he's told the following: maintain your balance, change your stance, keep your hands back, don't open your shoulders too early, don't step in the bucket, shift your weight when you swing, etc, etc, etc.

I'd advise two things: "Keep your head in by trying to watch the ball hit the bat when you swing", and "think about hitting the ball right up the middle". When you do those two things, a lot of other things correct automatically.

When we fix a few of the things that have been dogging us, the results overall will make everything look so much better. We have seen flashes of their talent, and hopefully they can correct before the season hopes are washed out.

 

[logen]

He's not getting fired guys, so can we put this to rest?

So far, this has been a disappointing year. We all thought the team was going to take a big step forward, but ignored the fact that it is seriously flawed. These guys are not particularly good at anything (poor court vision, awful shooting, bad fundamentals in the paint). Perhaps they'll get better as the season progresses. After Villanova, we have a really weak stretch where this team can pick up some W's. Not going to really help our tournament chances, but at least the losing streak will end.

Back to Lavin ... let's stop pretending we are one of these schools that hires and fires coaches because of expectations. We last won a tournament game in the year 2000. It's 2014. SJU has been a bottom feeder program for a long, long time now. There's a reason why Creighton will draw 20k to their games and we won't even pack MSG against Villanova on Saturday. Although Lavin is a flawed coach, he's the best shot we got.

He is NOT the best shot we got. Far from it.

All of you Lavin apologists know that he is nothing more than a PR guy.

We are in the biggest market and our AD knows this. Who better than a used car salesman to bring attention to us.

But the time is up. His job requirement is to get wins and get us to the tournament.

Instead of playing coach, he's out here playing as some executive.

Clearly we go into games with no gameplan. So if there's no coaching and all he does is recruit, where are the 2014 recruits?

If it wasn't for Chiles, I don't even know if we'd have half of our signings.

I'm not going to sit here and argue with you because there isn't really a point. The proof is in the W/L record.

The fact of the matter is most fans are living in the '80s. We don't have facilities of our own and by comparison our fan base is pretty pathetic. A big name coach isn't going to suddenly decide "Hey, you know what? St. John's seems like a great choice." I'm not saying Steve is the best coach out there. Far from it. His reputation of being a better recruiter than he is a coach is valid. But he did winat UCLA (and his 1st year at SJU). He does have a history. And I'm sorry, but our program has been a joke for a really long time now, so we have to accept the fact that this rebuild could take a little longer than we all want.

I'll disagree about fans living in the 80s as it is probably just older alumni.

In 2010, we wre able to pack MSG with people who didn't even follow college basketball or SJU in particular because it was a good product.

If you tell me that Lavin was responsible for that, then fine.

But also realize that he must be responsible for what's going on right now as this is HIS "prized" recruiting class 3 years later. How long does it take to rebuild when you score back to back Top 5 recruiting classes?

And 3 years later without one win vs. Georgetown, Syracuse, Louisville, Villanova and any quality team worth mentioning. Not one.

And he has the audacity to tell the fans to wait until February while he strolls out lineup after lineup without a clue what to do on the floor?

MSG is a billion dollar facility.

Coaches would kill to be able to call that their home court.

It is Lavin's responsibility to put a quality product on that floor. If he can't, then he needs to step aside for someone who can.

Hey I'll tell you a couple of things -

#1: I don't live in the 80s. I live here. It's pathetic that we bring up the 80s every 5th post, but its really our most recent continuous run at success other than the brief Artest run.

#2: The Garden wasn't packed in 2010, except when an opponent packed the place. You have no clue what it was like when we OWNED the place. You couldn't hear the person next to you, and you went home every single game with a sore throat. When the Garden roared then, it was 95% SJU fans - even the casual Wall Street fan got caught up in it and made SJU his dinner date - it was THAT BIG.

#3: If you were around for 2009, there were some pretty smart basketball people thinking we should just drop down to A10, or some other mid major conference because SJU basketball was finished. DONE AS A PROGRAM. Like NYU, CCNY, Manhattan, or any program that was once a very good program. Then Lavin came along and restored the program almost immediately - Not even a wait period to nail big time recruits, and before a single one of his guys stepped foot on the court, we were winning exciting games, ranked, and headed to Denver.

So yea, we are all impatient for the full restoration of the program. College basketball has changed radically since 2002. No longer is it 40 or 50 schools competing for a top 25 ranking. Now any decent mid major can make a lot of noise, get TV and internet coverage, and climb into the rankings more easily than ever before. Tis isn't an excuse. Win or lose, there will be a tomorrow, and if they lose, I'm not running into redmen.com to pout like I'm 12. It's still the only product in town I'd root for with as much passion, so after 6 frigging ridiculous years of Malik Stiths being our big recruit, for now I still have patience, once the school showed they wanted a real program, and not a clean program run by mini-me.

I do understand your position but I also think you are missing the point of the criticism. I think the vast majority of it comes from the way this team plays and is coached. From a players perspective I see a primarily selfish group of players looking for theirs on offense with none of them really going out and busting it on defense. From a coaching perspective, the team looks unprepared, with no role definition and the ridiculous line-ups and substitutions. I can accept the losing, if the losing comes with legitimate effort. I am not saying guys are consciously dogging it but I defy anyone to tell me any player that plays 100% for 40 minutes, one that never takes plays off; one who plays like a Matt Brust or a David Cain, two borderline talented players who got the most out of what they had. As for coaching, I find it even difficult to comment because it is so poor as to be mind boggling. Why we recruited the type of players we did and not force tempo by pressing and scrambling is beyond me. If we know we can't shoot or play half court basketball how can a coaching staff not see that? Anyway, to summarize, I am frustrated and critical because of those things not our record.

Nearly every single aspect of the team has been scrutinized and criticized over the past couple of weeks. A lot of the criticism has validity, except to fire Lavin at this point. When you stink, it's hard to figure out where the smell is coming from..

I look at it this way: Did you ever play baseball? When a guy isn't hitting, he's told the following: maintain your balance, change your stance, keep your hands back, don't open your shoulders too early, don't step in the bucket, shift your weight when you swing, etc, etc, etc.

I'd advise two things: "Keep your head in by trying to watch the ball hit the bat when you swing", and "think about hitting the ball right up the middle". When you do those two things, a lot of other things correct automatically.

When we fix a few of the things that have been dogging us, the results overall will make everything look so much better. We have seen flashes of their talent, and hopefully they can correct before the season hopes are washed out.

Funny you bring up the baseball thing because I have coached and instructed hitting. And your advice is on the money. Keep your head (and therefore your eyes) on the ball and have quick hands, trust your ability; don't overthink. However, we are posting here about what we are seeing on the court, not coaching the team; there is a big difference. We are offering opinions and observations, not having direct contact with the players so I don't really get the analogy. Also, I have never called for Lavin's head and in fact I don't want him to leave; I have merely (a thousand times) offered my opinion that he is currently doing a lousy job coaching. From where I sit you and Marillac, etc. post about what COULD happen, I and others post about what IS happening.

 

[Class of 72]

I'll take here what he did at UCLA...in a heartbeat. UCLA fans feel that he shoul have gone further with the talent he had. Therefore, he is a lousy coach. Fans here have turned on him rather suddenly. I haven't given up on this season or on Lavin's ability to turn us into a consistent winner. Then again, I am the eternal optimist.

One criticism I do have is that i feel that we always adjust to playing the other team's game rather than dictate the style of play that we want to play. Fordham is the only one of our recent games where we dictated tempo and style of play. Even against Syracuse (a game that we could/should have won) they controlled tempo in the first half and the last 5 minutes of the game. Xavier, after the first few minutes, and G'town from the opening tip, did the same. I'm hoping, against Nova, we can play our game. The thing is, however, I think they will try to play fast and that is what we should be playing too. We should not be trying to turn it into a half-court contest.

We have no style of play. We have athletes but do not run. We have guys that jump but do not rebound. We have guys that can score but are lousy shooters. We are fast but slow to defend. We have point guards but start walk ons. We have a center but he has disappeared. What we have is basketball improv group with a nutty casting director. Our team is like a box of mixed chocolates. We don't know what we are going to get until tip off!
Mary Lavin---now she has style!

 

[simplyred]

Hey, the Knicks just won their thrd straight, beating Miami 4 of the last 5 times they've played.

 

[Eddyman11]

I'll take here what he did at UCLA...in a heartbeat. UCLA fans feel that he shoul have gone further with the talent he had. Therefore, he is a lousy coach. Fans here have turned on him rather suddenly. I haven't given up on this season or on Lavin's ability to turn us into a consistent winner. Then again, I am the eternal optimist.

One criticism I do have is that i feel that we always adjust to playing the other team's game rather than dictate the style of play that we want to play. Fordham is the only one of our recent games where we dictated tempo and style of play. Even against Syracuse (a game that we could/should have won) they controlled tempo in the first half and the last 5 minutes of the game. Xavier, after the first few minutes, and G'town from the opening tip, did the same. I'm hoping, against Nova, we can play our game. The thing is, however, I think they will try to play fast and that is what we should be playing too. We should not be trying to turn it into a half-court contest.

We have no style of play. We have athletes but do not run. We have guys that jump but do not rebound. We have guys that can score but are lousy shooters. We are fast but slow to defend. We have point guards but start walk ons. We have a center but he has disappeared. What we have is basketball improv group with a nutty casting director. Our team is like a box of mixed chocolates. We don't know what we are going to get until tip off!
Mary Lavin---now she has style!

Exactly !! We have no identity. A half court contest would be a slow death. I would love to see us play that Nolan Richardson "40 Minutes of Hell" style of basketball. Just press from tip off to the final seconds and attack attack attack. We definitely have the personel for that style of play.

 

[paultzman]

I'll take here what he did at UCLA...in a heartbeat. UCLA fans feel that he shoul have gone further with the talent he had. Therefore, he is a lousy coach. Fans here have turned on him rather suddenly. I haven't given up on this season or on Lavin's ability to turn us into a consistent winner. Then again, I am the eternal optimist.

One criticism I do have is that i feel that we always adjust to playing the other team's game rather than dictate the style of play that we want to play. Fordham is the only one of our recent games where we dictated tempo and style of play. Even against Syracuse (a game that we could/should have won) they controlled tempo in the first half and the last 5 minutes of the game. Xavier, after the first few minutes, and G'town from the opening tip, did the same. I'm hoping, against Nova, we can play our game. The thing is, however, I think they will try to play fast and that is what we should be playing too. We should not be trying to turn it into a half-court contest.

We have no style of play. We have athletes but do not run. We have guys that jump but do not rebound. We have guys that can score but are lousy shooters. We are fast but slow to defend. We have point guards but start walk ons. We have a center but he has disappeared. What we have is basketball improv group with a nutty casting director. Our team is like a box of mixed chocolates. We don't know what we are going to get until tip off!
Mary Lavin---now she has style!

Exactly !! We have no identity. A half court contest would be a slow death. I would love to see us play that Nolan Richardson "40 Minutes of Hell" style of basketball. Just press from tip off to the final seconds and attack attack attack. We definitely have the personel for that style of play.

Must say it has been "hell" watching this team for forty minutes each game over past two seasons. Starting to believe in purgatory! :cheer:

 

[beast of the east]

He's not getting fired guys, so can we put this to rest?

So far, this has been a disappointing year. We all thought the team was going to take a big step forward, but ignored the fact that it is seriously flawed. These guys are not particularly good at anything (poor court vision, awful shooting, bad fundamentals in the paint). Perhaps they'll get better as the season progresses. After Villanova, we have a really weak stretch where this team can pick up some W's. Not going to really help our tournament chances, but at least the losing streak will end.

Back to Lavin ... let's stop pretending we are one of these schools that hires and fires coaches because of expectations. We last won a tournament game in the year 2000. It's 2014. SJU has been a bottom feeder program for a long, long time now. There's a reason why Creighton will draw 20k to their games and we won't even pack MSG against Villanova on Saturday. Although Lavin is a flawed coach, he's the best shot we got.

He is NOT the best shot we got. Far from it.

All of you Lavin apologists know that he is nothing more than a PR guy.

We are in the biggest market and our AD knows this. Who better than a used car salesman to bring attention to us.

But the time is up. His job requirement is to get wins and get us to the tournament.

Instead of playing coach, he's out here playing as some executive.

Clearly we go into games with no gameplan. So if there's no coaching and all he does is recruit, where are the 2014 recruits?

If it wasn't for Chiles, I don't even know if we'd have half of our signings.

I'm not going to sit here and argue with you because there isn't really a point. The proof is in the W/L record.

The fact of the matter is most fans are living in the '80s. We don't have facilities of our own and by comparison our fan base is pretty pathetic. A big name coach isn't going to suddenly decide "Hey, you know what? St. John's seems like a great choice." I'm not saying Steve is the best coach out there. Far from it. His reputation of being a better recruiter than he is a coach is valid. But he did winat UCLA (and his 1st year at SJU). He does have a history. And I'm sorry, but our program has been a joke for a really long time now, so we have to accept the fact that this rebuild could take a little longer than we all want.

I'll disagree about fans living in the 80s as it is probably just older alumni.

In 2010, we wre able to pack MSG with people who didn't even follow college basketball or SJU in particular because it was a good product.

If you tell me that Lavin was responsible for that, then fine.

But also realize that he must be responsible for what's going on right now as this is HIS "prized" recruiting class 3 years later. How long does it take to rebuild when you score back to back Top 5 recruiting classes?

And 3 years later without one win vs. Georgetown, Syracuse, Louisville, Villanova and any quality team worth mentioning. Not one.

And he has the audacity to tell the fans to wait until February while he strolls out lineup after lineup without a clue what to do on the floor?

MSG is a billion dollar facility.

Coaches would kill to be able to call that their home court.

It is Lavin's responsibility to put a quality product on that floor. If he can't, then he needs to step aside for someone who can.

Hey I'll tell you a couple of things -

#1: I don't live in the 80s. I live here. It's pathetic that we bring up the 80s every 5th post, but its really our most recent continuous run at success other than the brief Artest run.

#2: The Garden wasn't packed in 2010, except when an opponent packed the place. You have no clue what it was like when we OWNED the place. You couldn't hear the person next to you, and you went home every single game with a sore throat. When the Garden roared then, it was 95% SJU fans - even the casual Wall Street fan got caught up in it and made SJU his dinner date - it was THAT BIG.

#3: If you were around for 2009, there were some pretty smart basketball people thinking we should just drop down to A10, or some other mid major conference because SJU basketball was finished. DONE AS A PROGRAM. Like NYU, CCNY, Manhattan, or any program that was once a very good program. Then Lavin came along and restored the program almost immediately - Not even a wait period to nail big time recruits, and before a single one of his guys stepped foot on the court, we were winning exciting games, ranked, and headed to Denver.

So yea, we are all impatient for the full restoration of the program. College basketball has changed radically since 2002. No longer is it 40 or 50 schools competing for a top 25 ranking. Now any decent mid major can make a lot of noise, get TV and internet coverage, and climb into the rankings more easily than ever before. Tis isn't an excuse. Win or lose, there will be a tomorrow, and if they lose, I'm not running into redmen.com to pout like I'm 12. It's still the only product in town I'd root for with as much passion, so after 6 frigging ridiculous years of Malik Stiths being our big recruit, for now I still have patience, once the school showed they wanted a real program, and not a clean program run by mini-me.

I do understand your position but I also think you are missing the point of the criticism. I think the vast majority of it comes from the way this team plays and is coached. From a players perspective I see a primarily selfish group of players looking for theirs on offense with none of them really going out and busting it on defense. From a coaching perspective, the team looks unprepared, with no role definition and the ridiculous line-ups and substitutions. I can accept the losing, if the losing comes with legitimate effort. I am not saying guys are consciously dogging it but I defy anyone to tell me any player that plays 100% for 40 minutes, one that never takes plays off; one who plays like a Matt Brust or a David Cain, two borderline talented players who got the most out of what they had. As for coaching, I find it even difficult to comment because it is so poor as to be mind boggling. Why we recruited the type of players we did and not force tempo by pressing and scrambling is beyond me. If we know we can't shoot or play half court basketball how can a coaching staff not see that? Anyway, to summarize, I am frustrated and critical because of those things not our record.

Nearly every single aspect of the team has been scrutinized and criticized over the past couple of weeks. A lot of the criticism has validity, except to fire Lavin at this point. When you stink, it's hard to figure out where the smell is coming from..

I look at it this way: Did you ever play baseball? When a guy isn't hitting, he's told the following: maintain your balance, change your stance, keep your hands back, don't open your shoulders too early, don't step in the bucket, shift your weight when you swing, etc, etc, etc.

I'd advise two things: "Keep your head in by trying to watch the ball hit the bat when you swing", and "think about hitting the ball right up the middle". When you do those two things, a lot of other things correct automatically.

When we fix a few of the things that have been dogging us, the results overall will make everything look so much better. We have seen flashes of their talent, and hopefully they can correct before the season hopes are washed out.

Funny you bring up the baseball thing because I have coached and instructed hitting. And your advice is on the money. Keep your head (and therefore your eyes) on the ball and have quick hands, trust your ability; don't overthink. However, we are posting here about what we are seeing on the court, not coaching the team; there is a big difference. We are offering opinions and observations, not having direct contact with the players so I don't really get the analogy. Also, I have never called for Lavin's head and in fact I don't want him to leave; I have merely (a thousand times) offered my opinion that he is currently doing a lousy job coaching. From where I sit you and Marillac, etc. post about what COULD happen, I and others post about what IS happening.

Thanks for your post. The comparison to baseball was there because in hitting if you straighten a couple of things out, much of the other stuff corrects, and certainly will be overlooked to an extent when you have success.

We've said no one can shoot - certainly no one has shot consistently well, but Harrison, Branch, Greene, Hooper, and Sanchez are three point threats and aren't horrible shooters. Sampson is a pretty good shooter 15 feet and in. I know % wise we haven't shot well, but we've overall had worse outside shooting teams and still won.

We've said this team doesn't pass well - I happen to think that Jordan, Harrison, Sanchez, and Branch keep their heads up, and in a lot of situations are pass first type of players that enjoy making a very good pass. Harrison of course seems to launch when the offense breaks down.

We don't rebound well - This may be true, but we typically got crushed by Syracuse on the boards, and we really held our own there vs. them.

Winning will correct a lot of complaints. If we don't win, the analysis and criticism will just cascade. By the end of season, we will be down to a handful of posters, as in the NR years. At least if this does happen, Lavin's friends and family won't show up here posting ridiculously supportive falsehoods.

 

[Jack Williams]

I'll take here what he did at UCLA...in a heartbeat. UCLA fans feel that he shoul have gone further with the talent he had. Therefore, he is a lousy coach. Fans here have turned on him rather suddenly. I haven't given up on this season or on Lavin's ability to turn us into a consistent winner. Then again, I am the eternal optimist.

One criticism I do have is that i feel that we always adjust to playing the other team's game rather than dictate the style of play that we want to play. Fordham is the only one of our recent games where we dictated tempo and style of play. Even against Syracuse (a game that we could/should have won) they controlled tempo in the first half and the last 5 minutes of the game. Xavier, after the first few minutes, and G'town from the opening tip, did the same. I'm hoping, against Nova, we can play our game. The thing is, however, I think they will try to play fast and that is what we should be playing too. We should not be trying to turn it into a half-court contest.

We have no style of play. We have athletes but do not run. We have guys that jump but do not rebound. We have guys that can score but are lousy shooters. We are fast but slow to defend. We have point guards but start walk ons. We have a center but he has disappeared. What we have is basketball improv group with a nutty casting director. Our team is like a box of mixed chocolates. We don't know what we are going to get until tip off!
Mary Lavin---now she has style!

Exactly !! We have no identity. A half court contest would be a slow death. I would love to see us play that Nolan Richardson "40 Minutes of Hell" style of basketball. Just press from tip off to the final seconds and attack attack attack. We definitely have the personel for that style of play.

I don't think our team could. Are we disciplined enough to do a press without fouling and leaving guys wide open down the floor? I don't believe so, but Lavin hasn't even figured out WHO he wants on the floor, so he's a long way off from knowing what he wants his players to do when they are on the court. Maybe we try the press, ill sign up for anything other than what our game plan is right now.

 

[beast of the east]

I'll take here what he did at UCLA...in a heartbeat. UCLA fans feel that he shoul have gone further with the talent he had. Therefore, he is a lousy coach. Fans here have turned on him rather suddenly. I haven't given up on this season or on Lavin's ability to turn us into a consistent winner. Then again, I am the eternal optimist.

One criticism I do have is that i feel that we always adjust to playing the other team's game rather than dictate the style of play that we want to play. Fordham is the only one of our recent games where we dictated tempo and style of play. Even against Syracuse (a game that we could/should have won) they controlled tempo in the first half and the last 5 minutes of the game. Xavier, after the first few minutes, and G'town from the opening tip, did the same. I'm hoping, against Nova, we can play our game. The thing is, however, I think they will try to play fast and that is what we should be playing too. We should not be trying to turn it into a half-court contest.

We have no style of play. We have athletes but do not run. We have guys that jump but do not rebound. We have guys that can score but are lousy shooters. We are fast but slow to defend. We have point guards but start walk ons. We have a center but he has disappeared. What we have is basketball improv group with a nutty casting director. Our team is like a box of mixed chocolates. We don't know what we are going to get until tip off!
Mary Lavin---now she has style!

Exactly !! We have no identity. A half court contest would be a slow death. I would love to see us play that Nolan Richardson "40 Minutes of Hell" style of basketball. Just press from tip off to the final seconds and attack attack attack. We definitely have the personel for that style of play.

I don't think our team could. Are we disciplined enough to do a press without fouling and leaving guys wide open down the floor? I don't believe so, but Lavin hasn't even figured out WHO he wants on the floor, so he's a long way off from knowing what he wants his players to do when they are on the court. Maybe we try the press, ill sign up for anything other than what our game plan is right now.

A well executed press always leaves guys open, simply because you are doubling up on the ball. The idea is to be able to put so much pressure on the ball, that either you steal the ball directly, or force a bad pass that another defender can pick off. If you can't do that, then the ball will advance up the floor, which is why people suggest Obekpa on the floor to put pressure on otherwise easy shots. But with our athletes, it would seem an effective helter skelter press would be easier for them to master than a zone defense.

 

[Roamer]

I barely post here but have been coming to this site ever since I can remember. I have been a regular season ticket holder for over 15 years and have had the opportunity and the privilege over the years to get to know some of the SJU players (including ones that have been drafted to the league). I know everyone has exhausted their patience with the program but IMO I think it is premature to have a Fire Lavin discussion. Lavin may not be the best coach out there but he is the best opportunity we currently have to revive the program. The one major thing that I have no logical explanation for is the lack of chemistry the team has on the floor, on paper the players individually have stellar credentials but sometimes when I watch them play it seems as if they are just getting to know each other like a playground pick-up game. I think there may be more going on behind the scenes than we as fans are privy to, I just think there is a lack of chemistry with this group and really can't pinpoint why. Yes Lavin does seem to make questionable substitutions and starters and I wonder if he is also trying to coach in the chemistry (which I don't think is something a coach can do) but at the end of the day Lavin is the coach and has more experience and qualifications than most of us on this board, I am sure he is not that oblivious to what is going on and he does as a coach want to succeed. I really place most of the blame on the players and not being able to find a consistent rhythm with each other or being disciplined enough to work through this. The coach is not the one on the floor missing free throws or wide open shots, these kids (most of them) are obviously meant for D1 play since they were recruited by other similar schools I just don't think this bunch of guys can play together as a cohesive group.

 

[redfazed]

I barely post here but have been coming to this site ever since I can remember. I have been a regular season ticket holder for over 15 years and have had the opportunity and the privilege over the years to get to know some of the SJU players (including ones that have been drafted to the league). I know everyone has exhausted their patience with the program but IMO I think it is premature to have a Fire Lavin discussion. Lavin may not be the best coach out there but he is the best opportunity we currently have to revive the program. The one major thing that I have no logical explanation for is the lack of chemistry the team has on the floor, on paper the players individually have stellar credentials but sometimes when I watch them play it seems as if they are just getting to know each other like a playground pick-up game. I think there may be more going on behind the scenes than we as fans are privy to, I just think there is a lack of chemistry with this group and really can't pinpoint why. Yes Lavin does seem to make questionable substitutions and starters and I wonder if he is also trying to coach in the chemistry (which I don't think is something a coach can do) but at the end of the day Lavin is the coach and has more experience and qualifications than most of us on this board, I am sure he is not that oblivious to what is going on and he does as a coach want to succeed. I really place most of the blame on the players and not being able to find a consistent rhythm with each other or being disciplined enough to work through this. The coach is not the one on the floor missing free throws or wide open shots, these kids (most of them) are obviously meant for D1 play since they were recruited by other similar schools I just don't think this bunch of guys can play together as a cohesive group.

Yes, but getting them to play together as a cohesive group and get some chemistry together is one of the prime responsibilities of a D1 head coach.
And Lavin is a better position than the majority of peers, in terms of how long these guys have been together now.

 

[guru]

Listen lavin is a lifelong basketball guy and I'm sure he knows the game but teaching and developing is not his forte by any means. If it is possible to have him a gm role and bring in a Dunlop type to run practices and game prep that would be ideal! It's very tough watching a team full of top 100 talent regress like we are....give a coach who teaches and gets 110% out of players.... They don't even have to be top name top 100 guys I'll sign up right now! Look at a team like Xavier, I'm sure there roster is not riddled with top 100 guys like outlets but they all outplayed and out coached us in a bad bad way!!! Next 3 games are pivotal to not only lavs future but the programs