Fire Lavin!
- Thread starter Ilzion
- Start date
I'm standing up for coach today, I don't think it's fair to blame last night's loss on him. But what has he done to make you think he'll have a top ten team anytime soon?
Arguably he has about as much talent now as you can reasonably expect he ever will here at St Johns. Even if future recruiting classes are very good, guys like Harrison and Sampson will be gone by the time they get here. I'll admit he's a great recruiter, so it wouldn't surprise me if he lands one or two difference makers. But even then, It's hard to think he'll ever have much more talent than he does right now. And this team is headed to the NIT
So, what's going to change that will give him a top10 team?
It's sad to say, but St John's is probably the most overrated program in college basketball history. If you look close, we're a gelding that walks around the stable like a stud.
Come on. In the past 22 years...the lifetime of virtually every college student today...this team has racked up double digit losses in all but two seasons. Those were Jarvis years where we had "only" eight and nine losses respectively. There's a reason Syracuse is New York's team. It's called results.
I was dead wrong when I believed Lavin would put an end to us being the rectum of big time college hoops. I still believe no one out there would give us a better chance. He tries, but he's too quirky to ever become a winner again. He gets more premonitions than a tarot card reader on 43rd and Broadway.
We're the flea walking up the elephant's leg with carnal thoughts running through our brain. Columbia is a perennial Ivy League bottom feeder...Fordham knows its place in the Atlantic 10...Iona, Hofstra, Manhattan, St Peters also know their places. Our place is the NIT with an occasional one or two and done in the big dance. It's in the cards, whether or not Lavin is our coach.
Come on. In the past 22 years...the lifetime of virtually every college student today...this team has racked up double digit losses in all but two seasons. Those were Jarvis years where we had "only" eight and nine losses respectively. There's a reason Syracuse is New York's team. It's called results.
I was dead wrong when I believed Lavin would put an end to us being the rectum of big time college hoops. I still believe no one out there would give us a better chance. He tries, but he's too quirky to ever become a winner again. He gets more premonitions than a tarot card reader on 43rd and Broadway.
We're the flea walking up the elephant's leg with carnal thoughts running through our brain. Columbia is a perennial Ivy League bottom feeder...Fordham knows its place in the Atlantic 10...Iona, Hofstra, Manhattan, St Peters also know their places. Our place is the NIT with an occasional one or two and done in the big dance. It's in the cards, whether or not Lavin is our coach.
I'm a big DLO fan but I'm confused after watching him play last night. Lavin suspended him for less last year. He should have ridden the pine as soon as it was obvious that he wasn't there to play. Overall a truly lackluster performance by all Redmen coaches and players alike. Didn't see this one coming after a reasonable Nova effort. NIT here we come!
Lavin has won enough games this year to keep his job. And he has set himself up very well for the future. Next year, assuming all key players except Sanchez and Gift come back, we will make the NCAA tourney. And everyone will celebrate the improvement over the Norm years.
Then, in 2015 — since he seems to have all but capitulated on recruiting for 2014—Lavin will once again have the “youngest team in America” excuse. And the tortuous “so talented, but so inexperienced” losing cycle will continue, while Lavin pockets another $10 million or so over the following 5 years for being “a great recruiter who’s not so good with X’s and O’s.”
Nice work if you can get it.
Then, in 2015 — since he seems to have all but capitulated on recruiting for 2014—Lavin will once again have the “youngest team in America” excuse. And the tortuous “so talented, but so inexperienced” losing cycle will continue, while Lavin pockets another $10 million or so over the following 5 years for being “a great recruiter who’s not so good with X’s and O’s.”
Nice work if you can get it.
Well since you asked... (LOL)
I agree with Logen to a fair degree. Lavin has his good points, which include recruiting and being a good ambassador for the program. I agree that those two things have helped a lot in bringing the program back from a low point, though I don't really think at this point that is much of an excuse for present performance.
And I agree that the players have some responsibility here, since they are the ones who are out there to make decisions (good or bad) and perform (also good or bad). There is only so much a coach can do once the ball gets rolled out.
HOWEVER, if the players have low basketball IQ and/or low motivation (which is to some extent the implication of Logen's post), then some responsibility for that DOES rest with the coach. After all, he is the one who recruited them. Beyond that, it is part of the coach's job description to teach the players the game and to have them ready to play. Ultimately "the buck stops here."
There is also my "constant" criticism that our offensive (and to a lesser extent defensive) strategies do nothing to help the players succeed. We are running an NBA offense (isolation, pick and roll) with college players. Unless you have truly superior players - which we don't - that approach is likely to fail consistently against teams with better talent or who are better coached. Hence our woeful record against good teams, and our two losses to Xavier (as well as a few other games).
I think that the bottom line for our program is that Lavin will recruit well enough to be competitive and make the NCAAs on a regular basis. He may find a couple of stellar recruits that will result in a deep run, and success breeds success since players want to go to winning programs with track records of NBA placement. Under those circumstances, it's tough to argue for firing him, since for the most part people just care about the bottom line.
i also agree with Logen that more coaching turnover would not necessarily be beneficial, unless you brought in someone who is already proven.
Having said all that, it is still difficult to be enthusiastic about the brand of basketball we play or the person in charge of it. Coach Lavin has laid a nice foundation in restoring the program, (though our roster is going to implode as it did after the NCAA appearance if we do not add some underclassmen to keep a pipeline going). If he decided to depart for greener pastures, it would not necessarily be the end of the world if a good tactician were hired to take it over (though obviously recruiting is still essential).
So I guess i come down on the side of "you can't fire him, but I wouldn't cry if he left."
As disgusted as I am with last night's game we can't fire this guy. He was grossly out-coached last night. Seems to be the case in all our losses.
The only way I say off with his head is if Jakarr or Jordan either declare for draft or transfer. I've seen crazier things happen. Without either of those two I think it's time to go in a different direction. Plus, we aren't completely dead this year, just on life support fellas.
The only way I say off with his head is if Jakarr or Jordan either declare for draft or transfer. I've seen crazier things happen. Without either of those two I think it's time to go in a different direction. Plus, we aren't completely dead this year, just on life support fellas.
Don't at all disagree about the offense; I just think that too much is put on coaches in general. When all is said and done, players play and coaching once the game starts is very over-rated IMO. Not to mean it is irrelevant but over-rated. I know many disagree and so be it. Another small example, Sanchez came out last night like gangbusters. Then, as is his MO, he committs 2 silly fouls, comes out of the game and never gets his mojo back. Lavin's fault ot Sanchez'? To me completely on Sanchez. At the end of the day, this is a flawed group. Put another way, who is the consistent player out of this group? Who can you pencil in for anything, offensively or defensively? The answer is no one. They all have talent and they all have flaws, but the one constant is their inconsistency. Some of that falls on the coach, but some of that falls on the players. You can blame Lavin because he recruited them but what real choices did he have under the circumstances? That's why to me the next group of players he brings in will be very telling.
I pretty much agree with your "position", and the fact is we are obviously not in an altogether "good place" right now. The question was, should Lavin be let go, I say no. But I hung in too long supporting NR and maybe I am wrong here too. One last point, I am not even remotely enthusiastic about the way we have played this year. I expected to see a much improved team, in terms of style and results. I have seen neither and I started saying so right after the Wisconsin game. The best thing you can say about this team is they have more talent than any SJU team arguably since the Barkley/Artest team.
This particular quote is something Moose and I have talked about on several occasions. The team is flawed, and for him to put together a decent roster (as, flawed as it is) in the short manner of time he had is quite, remarkable. Not to make any excuses for him, but he recruited the first class while dealing some health issues. Remember, he found out about the cancer prior to the start of the 2010-2011 season.
Imagine, if he only had to replace 3 or 4 scholarships, when he arrived, instead of double-digits. It would've made things easier and a smoother transition. Like you stated, the current shortcomings are part of the coach and team.
No doubt. In agreeance.
Newsie! You need to take a chill pill. Or better yet, go to a nice place for lunch, order a nice meal with a glass of red wine. Preferably with some soft jazz playing in the background.
I agree that he did a very good job acquiring pieces in a very short time and under difficult circumstances. I'm sure the team wasn't constructed as it would be if he had a full cycle to recruit. And the next class(es) should be very telling.
But that's also why I'm concerned that he seemingly skipped the class of '14. Why? It wasn't as if it was hard to predict that there would be openings on the roster.
Moose
Well-known member
I'll bite.
Since that initial class though he has recruited (Not counting Karr because he recommitted)
Obekpa
Jones
Balamou
Sanchez
Bourgault
Hooper
Branch
Jordan
HALF of those guys do not play. 2 of those 4 are being redshirted after barely playing freshman year. They are all chalk full of holes in their game. 2 of them do 1 thing the team can't do (Shoot) but are so inferior in other ways they cant leave their chair. And its not like the first big class is all still here.
Out of the 9 players only
Harrison
Pointer
Gift
Greene
Sampson
are left. And Gift would have been gone already if he didn't stall a year there.
He doesn’t need new blood next season to get to the tournament (assuming no one key leaves) And by skipping 2014, he’ll be able to do 2 things in 2015 (1) tell potential recruits that they’ll get major minutes as freshmen, using Moe Harkless as a recent example (2) have the “youngest team in America” excuse again if things don’t go well.
The 2011 class was what it was.
Even if Jakarr qualified, that would've just added to the fact that we had a bunch of players with the exact same skillset.
Slasher (Harkless, Sampson, Pointer, Garrett), combo guard (D'Lo, Phil), PG who can't shoot (Nurideen).
That is not a formula for success. Just look at the last 2 national championship teams. They had players who can consistently shoot from the outside and rebounding.
This falls on Lavin because if he is going to recruit these types of players, he better put them in position to maximize their abilities.
Dom is a waste on offense. Him and Phil should never be on the floor at the same time because the collective basketball IQ drops even further than it is.
Max can probably hit 40-45% of his 3s. Why is he only brought in with 10 seconds left in the half?
Someone on the staff feels that it is quite alright to have your tallest player pump faking at the 3 point line instead of playing down low.
I mean, I can go on and on.
Point is, you recruit them, you better know how to use them. If not, step aside and stick to recruiting like in 2011.
Even if Jakarr qualified, that would've just added to the fact that we had a bunch of players with the exact same skillset.
Slasher (Harkless, Sampson, Pointer, Garrett), combo guard (D'Lo, Phil), PG who can't shoot (Nurideen).
That is not a formula for success. Just look at the last 2 national championship teams. They had players who can consistently shoot from the outside and rebounding.
This falls on Lavin because if he is going to recruit these types of players, he better put them in position to maximize their abilities.
Dom is a waste on offense. Him and Phil should never be on the floor at the same time because the collective basketball IQ drops even further than it is.
Max can probably hit 40-45% of his 3s. Why is he only brought in with 10 seconds left in the half?
Someone on the staff feels that it is quite alright to have your tallest player pump faking at the 3 point line instead of playing down low.
I mean, I can go on and on.
Point is, you recruit them, you better know how to use them. If not, step aside and stick to recruiting like in 2011.
I was afraid to open this thread (in fact almost afraid to come here at all) after last night's debacle and instead there's great debate. Thanks for that guys. I think you two have kind of nailed it except to say that LMF's expectations of a structured offense/system vs. an NBA style offense, while realistic as a fan - I'd like to see it too-, is not realistic based on Lavin's history anywhere. This is what he does, its what he did at UCLA. But at UCLA he inherited a team a couple years off a Natty and a recruiting brand that was and will always be very strong when the right guy's in charge. RSCI only starts in '98 but in Lavin's last 6 classes at UCLA he recruited 8 top 30 players.
At STJ its different. Yeah, there's a bunch of top 100 players on this team but the great programs running NBA offenses have a bunch of top 25's from various classes on the roster at any given time. Kentucky, Arizona and Florida all have 4 or more top 25 players on their roster this year. Syracuse, Kansas and Duke 3. I'd say all but maybe Duke are running unstructured NBA style offenses but with far greater talent. These are the programs Lavin wants to emulate. In order to do so he's got to set sights higher and then achieve those recruiting goals. Then he can get away with rolling the ball out there and running the stuff he's running now. But so far in 4 classes he only has 1 top 30 player.