Villanova a Blue Blood

[quote="bamafan" post=278896]Beast and '72-I am more interested where Nova and G'town were ranked 500 years ago. Was Christopher Columbus on either of those teams and what position did he play and how many points and rebounds did he average? Any rankings and statistics of the two schools would be greatly appreciated and then you can go back to your more recent rankings discussion. Thank-you.[/quote]

We may be older fans here but not that old!:p
 
[quote="L J S A" post=278864]For me, the blue bloods are still the ones I grew up hearing were blue bloods -- Indiana, UCLA, Kentucky, and UNC. And it's impossible to not put Duke in there now. I'd put Villanova the first rung below, even though I think they are a better program than both Indiana and UCLA. That notch below changes -- Texas used to be there and were for a while, but now they aren't. UConn no longer there. Syracuse still there. I'm not sure that top group ever changes for me, but that's clearly based on tradition and not reality.[/quote]

In college hoops and in life, isn’t it more: ‘what have you done for me lately’, than regaling over the past 30-40-50 years?
If that’s the score, then wouldn’t KY, UNC, Kansas, Duke be in the very top rung, and Nova, UCONN, Louisvile, Indiana the next rung down, with UCLA maybe in the 3rd rung with Syracuse , Gonzaga, and Florida?
Past ‘glory’ counts for ‘something’—but not everything.
Just guessing on this very subjective topic.
 
[quote="Chicago Days" post=278902][quote="L J S A" post=278864]For me, the blue bloods are still the ones I grew up hearing were blue bloods -- Indiana, UCLA, Kentucky, and UNC. And it's impossible to not put Duke in there now. I'd put Villanova the first rung below, even though I think they are a better program than both Indiana and UCLA. That notch below changes -- Texas used to be there and were for a while, but now they aren't. UConn no longer there. Syracuse still there. I'm not sure that top group ever changes for me, but that's clearly based on tradition and not reality.[/quote]

In college hoops and in life, isn’t it more: ‘what have you done for me lately’, than regaling over the past 30-40-50 years?
If that’s the score, then wouldn’t KY, UNC, Kansas, Duke be in the very top rung, and Nova, UCONN, Louisvile, Indiana the next rung down, with UCLA maybe in the 3rd rung with Syracuse , Gonzaga, and Florida?
Past ‘glory’ counts for ‘something’—but not everything.
Just guessing on this very subjective topic.[/quote]

Some of us grew up in very closed provincial environments. As a kid, going west meant New Jersey and Pennsylvania. Before cable and ESPN the only basketball games we watched on TV was the ECAC game of the week. The blue bloods were local schools like NYU, St. John's, Fordham, Manhattan, and Seton Hall. We heard of Kansas, North Carolina and Kentucky but never got to see them play unless they came to Madison Square Garden.
Now I have 400 tv channels, every sports channel and in the end I still think St. John's is as important in basketball as any school west of Pennsylvania or south of New Jersey.
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=278908][quote="Chicago Days" post=278902][quote="L J S A" post=278864]For me, the blue bloods are still the ones I grew up hearing were blue bloods -- Indiana, UCLA, Kentucky, and UNC. And it's impossible to not put Duke in there now. I'd put Villanova the first rung below, even though I think they are a better program than both Indiana and UCLA. That notch below changes -- Texas used to be there and were for a while, but now they aren't. UConn no longer there. Syracuse still there. I'm not sure that top group ever changes for me, but that's clearly based on tradition and not reality.[/quote]

In college hoops and in life, isn’t it more: ‘what have you done for me lately’, than regalinmg over the past 30-40-50 years?
If that’s the score, then wouldn’t KY, UNC, Kansas, Duke be in the very top rung, and Nova, UCONN, Louisvile, Indiana the next rung down, with UCLA maybe in the 3rd rung with Syracuse , Gonzaga, and Florida?
Past ‘glory’ counts for ‘something’—but not everything.
Just guessing on this very subjective topic.[/quote]

Some of us grew up in very closed provincial environments. As a kid, going west meant New Jersey and Pennsylvania. Before cable and ESPN the only basketball games we watched on TV was the ECAC game of the week. The blue bloods were local schools like NYU, St. John's, Fordham, Manhattan, and Seton Hall. We heard of Kansas, North Carolina and Kentucky but never got to see them play unless they came to Madison Square Garden.
Now I have 400 tv channels, every sports channel and in the end I still think St. John's is as important in basketball as any school west of Pennsylvania or south of New Jersey.[/quote]

Agree ‘72. St. John’s is first in hoops in all of our hearts.
I recall—the light bulb may be dimming but it ain’t ‘out’—when St. John’s was #2 behind KY in total all-time wins.
Presently, I think we’re still in the top ten (#9), but unless we start to win again and consistently, our historical overall ranking likely dips into the second decile before too long.
That would be a sad day.
Let’s go Johnnies.
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=278843][quote="Beast of the East" post=278826][quote="Class of 72" post=278824]Beast wrote:
"I know what the published numbers are, but I can tell from direct experience is that 1290 will not get you into Villanova - not even close."

You're too funny Beast!! Was your direct experience having applied to Villanova? LOL! My nephew got in with a1320 and was rejected by Fordham. The published numbers come from the University. I worked in education for 30 years and have a pretty good idea of how the numbers are manipulated for rankings but, as loving Dad Mr. Owens said, numbers don't lie. ;) The range you yourself quoted is the "middle 50 % ". Very simply, Villanova submitted that 50% of the admitted students (not those actually accepted), had those SAT numbers. It means that 25% actually had higher than the top number which is exemplary but it also means that 25% had less than 1290. You may not like that fact but it is what it is as they say.
By the way, the undergraduate student population has no significance in determining the rankings. Duke has roughly the same undergraduate population as Villanova but it is a world class post graduate school with a very large post grad population. Thus, Villanova and Holy Cross, while differing in student size, are basically similar in their admittance demographics. Their middle 50% is basically identical. However, HC has a very high reputation among Jesuit universities and it's Government and Politics courses rival Georgetown and are superior than Notre Dame. Personally, I give the nod to HC over Villanova for the overall quality of education but those Nova kids "test" well and have very high GPA's. The bottom line is those are all very excellent Catholic schools but on the end, it doesn't make Villanova a basketball blue blood over the past 50 years, which is what a blue blood is, and it certainly doesn't make it a Georgetown or NYU academically given its almost completely homogeneous student population. Bottom line it is a great school to send your virginal daughters to.;)

BTW, attached is an interesting ranking. Please note the ranking of the College of the Holy Cross. Also note that SJU is not ranked as President Bobby is busy counting beans instead of improving academics.[/quote]

First of all, Bobby is improving academics at SJU. It's my understanding that some of the high end Deans that have recently come here would not have considered SJU without Bobby's influence.

Second of all, Villanova went to the NCAA Finals in 1971 - 47 years ago. While Georgetown had an impressive run through the Ewing-through-Mutombo years, the rest isn't nearly as impressive.

My direct experience is that all of my kids were accepted to Villanova, two to Holy Cross (one didn't apply), one to BC and one wait listed there. I do know that in those years, some friends and classmates got into Georgetown and BC with SAT scores between 1250 and 1300 because of legacy status. I can say with certainly that if 25% of accepted students were offered admission with 1250s, an overwhelming majority would have jumped on it. I don't have any evidence of that, but i think some schools report that to cash in on profiting off applications which is a pretty big business. I'm not just talking Villanova - I mean all schools. I can't explain it but I know there are plenty of kids with scores in the low to mid 1300s who aren't offered admission there.[/quote]

Personally I have no vested interest in any of the schools discussed. You appear to be a strong Villanova supporter. Good for you. I just wanted to retort because you inferred I was making up facts. When I gave you Villanova's self-repoerted SAT scores for their middle 50 percent you seem to be surprised. What shouldn't surprise you is that the lower 25% with scores below 1290 "may" come from the 13% that make up the low income family PELL eligible group who did not have the privilege of attending mostly white upper middle class schools in high performing school districts. It would be interesting to see how many of the hundreds of Villanova athletes scored above 1300.;)
I think I forgot to attach a ranking of Catholic schools and I'm sure there are many but many folks that evaluate schools think higher of Holy Cross than even Georgetown. I don't think you would see that with a Villanova - Georgetown comparison by anyone.

http://college.usatoday.com/2017/02/17/best-catholic-colleges/[/quote]

Can't account for the numbers but they do have 683 D1 athletes, many whom I suspect may have been admitted with lower than 1300 SATs. A friend's son was offered a lacrosse scholarship there with an SAT around 1200. Eventually went to Amherst, whose admission requirements I suspect is also relaxed for athletes.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=278936][quote="Class of 72" post=278843][quote="Beast of the East" post=278826][quote="Class of 72" post=278824]Beast wrote:
"I know what the published numbers are, but I can tell from direct experience is that 1290 will not get you into Villanova - not even close."

You're too funny Beast!! Was your direct experience having applied to Villanova? LOL! My nephew got in with a1320 and was rejected by Fordham. The published numbers come from the University. I worked in education for 30 years and have a pretty good idea of how the numbers are manipulated for rankings but, as loving Dad Mr. Owens said, numbers don't lie. ;) The range you yourself quoted is the "middle 50 % ". Very simply, Villanova submitted that 50% of the admitted students (not those actually accepted), had those SAT numbers. It means that 25% actually had higher than the top number which is exemplary but it also means that 25% had less than 1290. You may not like that fact but it is what it is as they say.
By the way, the undergraduate student population has no significance in determining the rankings. Duke has roughly the same undergraduate population as Villanova but it is a world class post graduate school with a very large post grad population. Thus, Villanova and Holy Cross, while differing in student size, are basically similar in their admittance demographics. Their middle 50% is basically identical. However, HC has a very high reputation among Jesuit universities and it's Government and Politics courses rival Georgetown and are superior than Notre Dame. Personally, I give the nod to HC over Villanova for the overall quality of education but those Nova kids "test" well and have very high GPA's. The bottom line is those are all very excellent Catholic schools but on the end, it doesn't make Villanova a basketball blue blood over the past 50 years, which is what a blue blood is, and it certainly doesn't make it a Georgetown or NYU academically given its almost completely homogeneous student population. Bottom line it is a great school to send your virginal daughters to.;)

BTW, attached is an interesting ranking. Please note the ranking of the College of the Holy Cross. Also note that SJU is not ranked as President Bobby is busy counting beans instead of improving academics.[/quote]

First of all, Bobby is improving academics at SJU. It's my understanding that some of the high end Deans that have recently come here would not have considered SJU without Bobby's influence.

Second of all, Villanova went to the NCAA Finals in 1971 - 47 years ago. While Georgetown had an impressive run through the Ewing-through-Mutombo years, the rest isn't nearly as impressive.

My direct experience is that all of my kids were accepted to Villanova, two to Holy Cross (one didn't apply), one to BC and one wait listed there. I do know that in those years, some friends and classmates got into Georgetown and BC with SAT scores between 1250 and 1300 because of legacy status. I can say with certainly that if 25% of accepted students were offered admission with 1250s, an overwhelming majority would have jumped on it. I don't have any evidence of that, but i think some schools report that to cash in on profiting off applications which is a pretty big business. I'm not just talking Villanova - I mean all schools. I can't explain it but I know there are plenty of kids with scores in the low to mid 1300s who aren't offered admission there.[/quote]

Personally I have no vested interest in any of the schools discussed. You appear to be a strong Villanova supporter. Good for you. I just wanted to retort because you inferred I was making up facts. When I gave you Villanova's self-repoerted SAT scores for their middle 50 percent you seem to be surprised. What shouldn't surprise you is that the lower 25% with scores below 1290 "may" come from the 13% that make up the low income family PELL eligible group who did not have the privilege of attending mostly white upper middle class schools in high performing school districts. It would be interesting to see how many of the hundreds of Villanova athletes scored above 1300.;)
I think I forgot to attach a ranking of Catholic schools and I'm sure there are many but many folks that evaluate schools think higher of Holy Cross than even Georgetown. I don't think you would see that with a Villanova - Georgetown comparison by anyone.

http://college.usatoday.com/2017/02/17/best-catholic-colleges/[/quote]

Can't account for the numbers but they do have 683 D1 athletes, many whom I suspect may have been admitted with lower than 1300 SATs. A friend's son was offered a lacrosse scholarship there with an SAT around 1200. Eventually went to Amherst, whose admission requirements I suspect is also relaxed for athletes.[/quote]

They also admit many straight A students who score in the 1200 to 1300 range because of other factors in their transcripts. The SAT is a one time score for most that doesn't reflect on their intelligence or potential. In fact there are many ways to prepare for the test to boost your score by over 100 points if you have the means. I think everyone has met a few brainiacs who scored over 1500 and we're A students who were miserable human beings and had little common sense.
Just to be clear, I wasn't one of those students and spent my share of time in detention for various reasons. College kept me out of the draft for 4 years but they still got me as soon as I graduated. I didn't learn to appreciate a higher education until I was in the military and I excelled in graduate school after having left my bad influence friends behind and ironically ending up working in education. :lol:
 
Our School, St John’s would have been considered a Blue Blood Program up to about the Year 2000 . Our Fortunes since are not .
 
Brunson is deserving of AP Player of the Year . That said, we really need to promote Shamorie as a BE and National Player of the Year candidate for 2018-19 season . His stats this year and presumably next Year plus a upsurge in our Record would put him in the running . Let’s give him all the support we can .
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=278953



They also admit many straight A students who score in the 1200 to 1300 range because of other factors in their transcripts.
[/quote]

I believe this is speculative on your part. The much greater likelihood is that they lower admission requirements to admit athletes, and to achieve both geographical and ethnic/racial/religious diversity. When Father Peter arrived on campus about a dozen years ago, one of his primary goals was to accelerate diversity on campus. This would include international students, students from all 50 states (many of which are not well represented on campus otherwise), and increase minority students. As you suggest, many students not from the Northeast do not take prep courses for SAT/ACT, and do not hire private tutors to help with same. I'm unaware of VIllanova considering students with great grades but poor scores. Some schools have made standardized test submission optional for that purpose, and promote that (Holy Cross may be one of them). Obviously, some kids just test better than others, and standardized testing is defective in many ways in predicting academic success and overall career success.
 
I know first hand that elite basketball players have been accepted at Villanova with less than 1000 on the SAT. Most schools, including the Ivy League relax admission standards for athelets.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=279014][quote="Class of 72" post=278953



They also admit many straight A students who score in the 1200 to 1300 range because of other factors in their transcripts.
[/quote]

I believe this is speculative on your part. The much greater likelihood is that they lower admission requirements to admit athletes, and to achieve both geographical and ethnic/racial/religious diversity. When Father Peter arrived on campus about a dozen years ago, one of his primary goals was to accelerate diversity on campus. This would include international students, students from all 50 states (many of which are not well represented on campus otherwise), and increase minority students. As you suggest, many students not from the Northeast do not take prep courses for SAT/ACT, and do not hire private tutors to help with same. I'm unaware of VIllanova considering students with great grades but poor scores. Some schools have made standardized test submission optional for that purpose, and promote that (Holy Cross may be one of them). Obviously, some kids just test better than others, and standardized testing is defective in many ways in predicting academic success and overall career success.[/quote]

If a student went to a competitive prep school and had straight A's and scored 1200 on the one time SAT but had excellent recommendations, was active in various activities, etc. all that trumps a bullshit SAT score. Athletes get in regardless of SAT score as long as they are B students. Rather than defend the lower 25% at Villanova you should be happy that the other 75% more than make up for it and in spades.
I'd rather hear how you think St. John's can catch up since this is not a Villanova site.;)
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=279240]VILLANOVA BEATS BLUE BLOOD KANSAS! !!!!
How sweet it is for Nova and the Big East![/quote]
I know it's Saturday night but is everyone else out tonight and missing the FINAL 4? Took my wife out for an early dinner to watch the games. Nova very business like and did not need to expend much emotion which I'm sure they stored up for Monday night. Loyola was a great Cinderella for about 34 minutes until the clock struck 12 and the dream ended. I was waiting the whole game for Michigan to overwhelm them and they finally did.
 
This Nova team is one of the best college basketball teams I have ever seen. They can beat you any way you choose.
 
[quote="JohnnyFan" post=279243]This Nova team is one of the best college basketball teams I have ever seen. They can beat you any way you choose.[/quote]

Begs the question, how the hell did we beat Nova?!!? Guess it goes down with the old NFL motto: “on any given Sunday,” but we played them tough the first time this Season in a loss as well.
Go figure.
 
Nova team is just so efficient and we'll prepared in every way.

Has Nova's run earned us enough $ to hire pay off what is owed and hire another assistant ?
 
[quote="bamafan" post=279242][quote="Class of 72" post=279240]VILLANOVA BEATS BLUE BLOOD KANSAS! !!!!
How sweet it is for Nova and the Big East![/quote]
I know it's Saturday night but is everyone else out tonight and missing the FINAL 4? Took my wife out for an early dinner to watch the games. Nova very business like and did not need to expend much emotion which I'm sure they stored up for Monday night. Loyola was a great Cinderella for about 34 minutes until the clock struck 12 and the dream ended. I was waiting the whole game for Michigan to overwhelm them and they finally did.[/quote]

I ordered in to watch the games.:)
I was rooting hard for Loyola-Chicago. To be honest, I think they would have beaten Michigan had not the German kid Wagner not had the game of his life. Loyola had no one capable of handling the 6'11 kid with an inside and outside game.
Loved seeing Villanova completely dominate Kansas.
Watched a great game last night with Notre Dame beating Uconn in overtime. Those girls can ball!
 
[quote="Chicago Days" post=279244][quote="JohnnyFan" post=279243]This Nova team is one of the best college basketball teams I have ever seen. They can beat you any way you choose.[/quote]

Begs the question, how the hell did we beat Nova?!!? Guess it goes down with the old NFL motto: “on any given Sunday,” but we played them tough the first time this Season in a loss as well.
Go figure.[/quote]

I think we caught Nova with Paschall out with an injury if I recall. Still, without Lovett and no Bench it was a fantastic win.
 
Yes it was an unbelievable win. But yes Nova was shorthanded. Booth also missed the game.
 
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