Villanova a Blue Blood

[quote="jerseyshorejohnny" post=278559]FWIW... Keep in mind that we have a lower 6 yr grad rate and a lower retention rate (although it has been improving under Bobby and is now around 84%. It was around 77% a few years ago)

This can be traced to the fact that over 40% of our students are Pell eligible (much higher than Villanova, BC, Fordham, ND, and G'Town, to name a few) and by definition they don't come from middle/upper middle class backgrounds.

That is our mission, for better or worse.

I would guess that the median family income of a Nova student is close to $200K annually, while the median family income of a SJU student would be around $50K, at most

Makes it a lot easier to graduate in 4-5-6 years when you have the financial resources to rely on.

If I knew then what I know now I would never had gone to St. John's.
They have disregarded the rankings that most/all parents use as a baseline for schools their kids should apply to. They have gotten to a point where the only reason the best and brightest would go there is for the aid package. They wouldn't even be on their radar otherwise. According to Niche....63% acceptance....ACT 22-28 (22???)and SAT 970-1180
Schools like Adelphi laugh at us as they stare thru their rear view mirror.
I know some would say the Counselor ranking is 106 but really who looks at that. We have fallen from 145---153---165 in just the last 6-8years. And considering there wee 6 schools ranked at 165 we could easily be in the 170's come next year. Lowering Tuition to attract students while assisting on the backend end for financial reasons and a very poor ranking among peer schools is most certainly not a recipe for success.
If I knew then what I know now I would never had gone to St. John's.
PS....But I do LOVE their basketball team!

http://www.redmen.com/forum/redmentalk/272693-villanova-a-blue-blood/reply/
 
OK all you Villanova dads enough with the Nova bragging! The question was whether Villanova can be considered a basketball blue blood and not whether they deserve their latest U.S. News academic ranking. Personally, I am not sure how they manipulated or fudged the numbers but they are over ranked by about 30 points over better universities nationally imo. Yes, I have been to Nova many times and have had family attend but in the Big East family of schools the gold standard academically is Georgetown University. From Law school to Medical school Georgetown is an internationally renowned university on the level of Cal-Berkeley, Michigan or any of the public ivies.
As for being a basketball blue blood in very recent years they certainly can make that argument with final 4 appearances but, again, going back 20 to 30 years among the remaining Big East schools, Georgetown was there longer and has more of a national reputation. Academic status or rankings have had less than zero to do with being considered a basketball blue blood as low ranking national universities such as Kentucky, Louisville, Kansas and a few others will attest.
As JerseyShoreJohnny pointed out the Villanova demographics have a lot to do with its "reputation". It is near the top of the list for well-to-do Catholic parents. From Delaware to Long Island the vast majority are suburban white kids that attend schools in high performing school districts or private schools. It is incredibly homogeneous and located in a quiet and safe suburban setting. Parents feel safe sending their daughters there as do many Long Island parents do with Marist. As for the comparison to Boston College I would lean to BC as a more iconic Catholic campus. In fact, the College of the Holy Cross attracts ivy level Catholic students much more than Villanova could ever dream of doing. Please note that I did not mention St. John's becsuse, as my fellow Kingsman alum Brooklyn Jersey mentioned, St. John's mission is vastly different from Villanova and, imo, more noble. Many Marist and Villanova students would not attend St. John's because of its demographics alone where Caucasian students are now less than half of the student population. Finally, St. John's is located in the most ethnically diverse urban areas of the country which gives it the opportunity to cultivate a new generation of immigrants regardless of race or creed. Eventually, many of those HC, BC and Nova grads migrate to NYC where they suffer culture shock that St. John's grads easily navigate.
 
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[quote="Class of 72" post=278608]OK all you Villanova dads enough with the Nova bragging! The question was whether Villanova can be considered a basketball blue blood and not whether they deserve their latest U.S. News academic ranking. Personally, I am not sure how they manipulated or fudged the numbers but they are over ranked by about 30 points over better universities nationally imo. Yes, I have been to Nova many times and have had family attend but in the Big East family of schools the gold standard academically is Georgetown University. From Law school to Medical school Georgetown is an internationally renowned university on the level of Cal-Berkeley, Michigan or any of the public ivies.
As for being a basketball blue blood in very recent years they certainly can make that argument with final 4 appearances but, again, going back 20 to 30 years among the remaining Big East schools, Georgetown was there longer and has more of a national reputation. Academic status or rankings have had less than zero to do with being considered a basketball blue blood as low ranking national universities such as Kentucky, Louisville, Kansas and a few others will attest.
As JerseyShoreJohnny pointed out the Villanova demographics have a lot to do with its "reputation". It is near the top of the list for well-to-do Catholic parents. From Delaware to Long Island the vast majority are suburban white kids that attend schools in high performing school districts or private schools. It is incredibly homogeneous and located in a quiet and safe suburban setting. Parents feel safe sending their daughters there as do many Long Island parents do with Marist. As for the comparison to Boston College I would lean to BC as a more iconic Catholic campus. In fact, the College of the Holy Cross attracts ivy level Catholic students much more than Villanova could ever dream of doing. Please note that I did not mention St. John's becsuse, as my fellow Kingsman alum Brooklyn Jersey mentioned, St. John's mission is vastly different from Villanova and, imo, more noble. Many Marist and Villanova students would not attend St. John's because of its demographics alone where Caucasian students are now less than half of the student population. Finally, St. John's is located in the most ethnically diverse urban areas of the country which gives it the opportunity to cultivate a new generation of immigrants regardless of race or creed. Eventually, many of those HC, BC and Nova grads migrate to NYC where they suffer culture shock that St. John's grads easily navigate.[/quote]

Too bad there is little factual about your speculation.

First off, it appears to me that with enrollment about 50% higher for their undergraduate population BC admits more underqualified legacy students. Their endowment is much higher than Villanova, reflective of a wealthier base than Villanova. Both schools has a much more generous donor base than st. John's, both on a % of alumni who donate and overall per diem donation.

As for the student population, both Bc and Villanova are highly selective. 15 years ago, it took about a 1300 minimum SAT to have a shot at admission to Nova. Today it's about 1400. BC is slightly higher, maybe by 30 points.

In terms of Catholic identity, our opinion is that Villanova is the more traditional Catholic school, while BC mutes its Catholic identity in deference to its non Catholic student population. At BC orientation priests dont even wear a collar.

Both schools draw large student populations from metro nyc. More internships are available to students from both schools than Philly and Boston. Like many schools both have grads who settle in NYC, but both have strong nyc are a student populations.

I don't know what comprises an iconic Catholic school campus, but both have beautiful suburban campuses in wealthy areas.

Both spawn successful grads.

Villanova definitemy does a better job in outreach to families of students, which are a large part of their donor base.

Can't really comment on Georgetown though we have friends who attended.

All three are great schools and to be critical of any if the three academically is just silly.
 
The below table discounts the talking point that StJohn’s is a leader enrolling Pell Grant eligible students.

The below linked information indicates that 29% of the StJohns students are Pell Grant eligible .... compared to Penn State (University Park) 54%, Florida International 55%, USF 52%, University of Memphis 51%, SUNY Albany 44%; UNC Charolette 43%, Ohio University 42%, UMass 40%, DePaul 37%, Stony Brook 35%, UBuffalo 34%, UC Berkeley 33%, St. John Fisher College 32%, Columbia University, UFlorida 32%, Aldelphi University 31%, Pace University 31%, University of Tennessee 30%, George Mason University 30%, University of Connecticut 30%, Seton Hall 29%. Even Syracuse University has a relatively same proportion of Pell Studdents enrolled as St. John’s University: 25% vs. 29%.

[URL][URL]https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/economic-diversity[/URL][/URL]
 
Agree with Class of 72 1,000% with his comments; but must say going to high school in East Flatbush/Canarsie and living in Flatbush, back then--- Queens where St. John's was on the old Hillcrest Golf Course, it seemed like going to the 'country' compared to Schermerhorn Street downtown Brooklyn.

Anyway, not debating high level Catholic Universities---- more getting back to this Blue Blood college BB thing....

Blue Blood if meaning socially prominent, noble ....doesn't really fit any basketball-factory description. Another term of "high rank" seems to fit more aptly.

So then no doubt Villanova is a basketball blue blood and have been for 10 or so years. Their win in 1985 notwithstanding, SJU was more of a basketball blue blood back in that day. UCLA is probably the most outstanding college BB program in history, but I bet that when most people mention blue bloods, they think of Kentucky and Kansas. When St. John's was in the top 5 of all-time Wins I'd say we were in the conversation but that pretty much all ended when our current coach graduated.

I would love to get back into the upper echelon of the present Big East and sustain it and then worry about becoming a blue blood again.
 
JSJ, how great for your Niece ! My Granddaughter took her Nova visit in February since she was waiting on Regular Decision after being Deferred in December . Through some Nova Alumni connections she got to meet Jay Wright on Campus and he gave her one of his Attitude Bracelets . She literally could have floated home from Philly after that ...She is still waiting to hear from some of her other Schools . If it were my decision , I would have sent in her deposit already to Nova .
 
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Absolutely correct in your comments BrookJersey . Different schools in many respects . SJU is twice the size of Villanova . And , my Granddaughter is a top student . Ranks 8 in her class of 467 in a well regarded Long Island Public High School . She targeted a lot of what one would classify as Elite schools . Notre Dame , Tulane , Duke , BC , Ga Tech , Dartmouth to name a few . And , Villanova . She got Deferred in December from all of them . Which seemingly is become common practice in these schools who get double or triple the Applications than they can accept . And , interestingly while a School like Villanova will accept about 6500 kids out of 17,000, they only expect a Class of about 2000. It’s a interesting commentary on the whole College Admittance System . And, it’s not beyond a College , any College , to manipulate Statistics to keep their various Ratios high . For example , they may defer a Student in December that they know they will definitely accept in March , just to boost Numbers . And , they all do it . Interesting .
 
72, I am the Grandfsther ,, not the Dad . You bet I am proud of her and you have nearly described to a T her credentials . Which would likely admit her to many , not all the Elite schools she applied to . G’town is truly a great Academic School , so are Notre Dame , BC , Vanderbilt and Duke . What I did not know until she was accepted to Ga Tech is how good a School the Rambling Wreck are . They are like 34 or 36 of All Schools and the 4 th Best in Engineering . Better than ND , Duke, Va Tech , etc . They are right behind MIT, Cal Tech , Stanford . A friend of mine , a Ga Tech Guy describes MIT as the “ Ga Tech of the North East .”
 
You guys act like SJU is taking kids from the hood and Nova only takes from only wealthy neighborhoods. SJU has plenty of Long Island and Whitestone kids and Nova has plenty of kids from the west side of Philly.

Where SJU radically differs in comparison to Nova is how their inner schools operate. Nova students from what I hear are accepted at every school in the university. At SJU, there’s radical differences between the inner colleges. The school of law, Pharmacy, Biotechnology and Business are way way WAY different than the school of liberal arts and school of professional studies students. And I mean everything is different, the demographics ( people may not know this, but SJU Business school is 89 percent white and Asian).

Just a interesting situation all around.
 
[quote="Sju grad 13" post=278650]You guys act like SJU is taking kids from the hood and Nova only takes from only wealthy neighborhoods. SJU has plenty of Long Island and Whitestone kids and Nova has plenty of kids from the west side of Philly.

Where SJU radically differs in comparison to Nova is how their inner schools operate. Nova students from what I hear are accepted at every school in the university. At SJU, there’s radical differences between the inner colleges. The school of law, Pharmacy, Biotechnology and Business are way way WAY different than the school of liberal arts and school of professional studies students. And I mean everything is different, the demographics ( people may not know this, but SJU Business school is 89 percent white and Asian).

Just a interesting situation all around.[/quote]

: Nova isn't nicknamed Vanillanova by chance. Since Father Peter took over there is a greater emphasis on diversity, but they are academically qualified diverse students,

#2: If I read you correctly, you must apply to a school at Villanova. Engineering. Nursing. Liberal Arts, Business. Business school tougher to get into than liberal arts. At St. John's, do you apply to a particular school (other than pharmacy?)
 
Applying to the college at. St. John's you don't apply to the Law School or any post-graduate program. Undergrad and grad programs totally separate.
My wife went to SJU undergrad double major soc/psych, and had to apply to the Post-Graduate Psych program at SJU in Queens after GREs, writing samples, recommendations, etc. Same with Law School, those schools could care less that you went to St. John's, I think it might have hurt you actually!

Very few classmates of ours were SJU undergrads; mostly other schools because the Clinical program for Psych at St. John's is very competitive. The Law School attracts many from out of state elite colleges who want to come back home for Law School and the chance at a big job in NYC after graduation.

Vanillanova beats Loyola in the "Pope's Final" on a last minute prayer by Dante DiVincenzo. Sorry Sister Jean the Cinderella Story lasts one more game but not two.
 
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[quote="BrookJersey Redmen" post=278679]Applying to the college at. St. John's you don't apply to the Law School or any post-graduate program. Undergrad and grad programs totally separate.
My wife went to SJU undergrad double major soc/psych, and had to apply to the Post-Graduate Psych program at SJU in Queens after GREs, writing samples, recommendations, etc. Same with Law School, those schools could care less that you went to St. John's, I think it might have hurt you actually!

Very few classmates of ours were SJU undergrads; mostly other schools because the Clinical program for Psych at St. John's is very competitive. The Law School attracts many from out of state elite colleges who want to come back home for Law School and the chance at a big job in NYC after graduation.

Vanillanova beats Loyola in the "Pope's Final" on a last minute prayer by Dante DiVincenzo. Sorry Sister Jean the Cinderella Story lasts one more game but not two.[/quote]

Ah, you may be right BrookJersey, but all of us may be underestimating Sister Jean ‘power’!
 
[quote="Chicago Days" post=278687][quote="BrookJersey Redmen" post=278679]Applying to the college at. St. John's you don't apply to the Law School or any post-graduate program. Undergrad and grad programs totally separate.
My wife went to SJU undergrad double major soc/psych, and had to apply to the Post-Graduate Psych program at SJU in Queens after GREs, writing samples, recommendations, etc. Same with Law School, those schools could care less that you went to St. John's, I think it might have hurt you actually!

Very few classmates of ours were SJU undergrads; mostly other schools because the Clinical program for Psych at St. John's is very competitive. The Law School attracts many from out of state elite colleges who want to come back home for Law School and the chance at a big job in NYC after graduation.

Vanillanova beats Loyola in the "Pope's Final" on a last minute prayer by Dante DiVincenzo. Sorry Sister Jean the Cinderella Story lasts one more game but not two.[/quote]

Ah, you may be right BrookJersey, but all of us may be underestimating Sister Jean ‘power’![/quote]

There might be more Chicago in you than others here realize :)
 
And , after a word , for the next 5 minutes , from our Sponsors , it’s back to BB . All interesting comments from various posters . A final word , I was very proud of graduating from St John’s back in 1968 and I paid my own way to attend the College of Business Administration . I realize the Mission of St John’s might differ from BC , Nova or Gtown but, Academic Standing is very important to any University . For the most part , I think most Graduates of St John’s have done well in their Careers , whatever Major they pursued . Which is also a mark of a good College . As for Basketball , the identity of the School was always favorably viewed by most people and it is regrettable that identity and brand was lost due to poor Administration and Leadership at the top under Father Harrington . And , ultimately the decline of the B.B. program can be attributed to his lack of knowing what the School’s identity and reputation was based upon . It may take Years to recover from his mistakes . I think Mullin will improve the B.B. program faster than the School’s Academics will . Just saying .
 
I was at Sunday's elite 8 game in Boston. As much as Villanova is the second team I root for, while I was happy they won, in no way was I even remotely elated the way I will be when SJU wins their next tourney gameS.

Litmus test.
 
And , after a word , for the next 5 minutes , from our Sponsors , it’s back to BB . All interesting comments from various posters . A final word , I was very proud of graduating from St John’s back in 1968 and I paid my own way to attend the College of Business Administration . I realize the Mission of St John’s might differ from BC , Nova or Gtown but, Academic Standing is very important to any University . For the most part , I think most Graduates of St John’s have done well in their Careers , whatever Major they pursued . Which is also a mark of a good College . As for Basketball , the identity of the School was always favorably viewed by most people and it is regrettable that identity and brand was lost due to poor Administration and Leadership at the top under Father Harrington . And , ultimately the decline of the B.B. program can be attributed to his lack of knowing what the School’s identity and reputation was based upon . It may take Years to recover from his mistakes . I think Mullin will improve the B.B. program faster than the School’s Academics will . Just saying .
 
Beast wrote:
"
Too bad there is little factual about your speculation.

First off, it appears to me that with enrollment about 50% higher for their undergraduate population BC admits more underqualified legacy students. Their endowment is much higher than Villanova, reflective of a wealthier base than Villanova. Both schools has a much more generous donor base than st. John's, both on a % of alumni who donate and overall per diem donation.

As for the student population, both Bc and Villanova are highly selective. 15 years ago, it took about a 1300 minimum SAT to have a shot at admission to Nova. Today it's about 1400. BC is slightly higher, maybe by 30 points."

Dear Beast,
I am not sure if you are a proud Nova dad like OTIS but based on your embellishments I'm going to "speculate" you may be.;)
First, I was initially addressing the original topic of whether Villanova can/should be considered a blue blood basketball school. My response was only if one looks at a microcosm of their last few years could that be possible. I noted that Georgetown was there much longer in terms of basketball blue blood possibilities but someone, perhaps you, strayed off topic to tout Nova's academic status. Of course its academic standing among national universities is well deserved but you went on about chasing Boston College in status and prestige.
Having had relatives whose children attended both schools, mostly BC because my late mom's large family settled in Boston, I didn’t "speculate" but opinioned that BC was a more iconic Catholic school. I didn't mean to imply that at BC the Jesuits were bigger holy rollers than the Augustinians. I was referring to dominant collegiate Gothic buildings compared to the ralatively modern and conservative architecture of the Villanova campus. As for religious structures, while St. Thomas Chapel is beautiful, I think St. Ignatius church is a real church that the surrounding communities love to attend.

I then "speculated" that Georgetown University was the gold standard in academic prestige in the Big East (ever since Notre Dame departed). Your facts may contradict that but I doubt anyone reading this thread really cares.
As for your fictional fact that a student needs 1400 on the SAT that is pure fantasy on your part. The "middle 50%" SAT range for the 2016 admitted class was 1290-1470. That means that 25% of the students admitted scored below 1290. Those numbers put Villanova on par with Fordham.
As for admissions status, both Fordham and Villanova are classified as "Exceptional ". That is also reflected in the similar GPA's of students. However, both Georgetown and Boston College are classified as "Elite" which is the standard of all the Ivy League schools.
As far as the Villanova demographics I stand by what I said. OTIS, in response to a PELL statistic that JSJ quoted addressed St. John's but you will notice he didn't include Villanova at less than 13%. That's because 87% of the family incomes of Villanova students exceed the cap of $50,000. Actually they exceed it by a large number. They have fewer PELL eligible students than Yale and Berkeley.
BTW, speaking of speculation, there is no published data on the test scores of legacy students at BC. Too bad you started your retort with fiction. But it begs the question when it comes to donating to your university in the group of schools mentioned in our discourse. BC has an endowment of $2.4 billion while Georgetown has an endowment of $1.6 billion. Of course both are dwarfed by ND at $11.8 billion.:eek:hmy:
Villanova donors appear to be rather tight for such an "exceptional" school. Their endowment was less than St. John's at $645 million compared to $648 million for the just as successful St. John's alums.;)
I hope I didn't speculate too much in my response.:)
 
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[quote="Class of 72" post=278757]Beast wrote:
"
Too bad there is little factual about your speculation.

First off, it appears to me that with enrollment about 50% higher for their undergraduate population BC admits more underqualified legacy students. Their endowment is much higher than Villanova, reflective of a wealthier base than Villanova. Both schools has a much more generous donor base than st. John's, both on a % of alumni who donate and overall per diem donation.

As for the student population, both Bc and Villanova are highly selective. 15 years ago, it took about a 1300 minimum SAT to have a shot at admission to Nova. Today it's about 1400. BC is slightly higher, maybe by 30 points."

Dear Beast,
I am not sure if you are a proud Nova dad like OTIS but based on your embellishments I'm going to "speculate" you may be.;)
First, I was initially addressing the original topic of whether Villanova can/should be considered a blue blood basketball school. My response was only if one looks at a microcosm of their last few years could that be possible. I noted that Georgetown was there much longer in terms of basketball blue blood possibilities but someone, perhaps you, strayed off topic to tout Nova's academic status. Of course its academic standing among national universities is well deserved but you went on about chasing Boston College in status and prestige.
Having had relatives whose children attended both schools, mostly BC because my late mom's large family settled in Boston, I didn’t "speculate" but opinioned that BC was a more iconic Catholic school. I didn't mean to imply that at BC the Jesuits were bigger holy rollers than the Augustinians. I was referring to dominant collegiate Gothic buildings compared to the ralatively modern and conservative architecture of the Villanova campus. As for religious structures, while St. Thomas Chapel is beautiful, I think St. Ignatius church is a real church that the surrounding communities love to attend.

I then "speculated" that Georgetown University was the gold standard in academic prestige in the Big East (ever since Notre Dame departed). Your facts may contradict that but I doubt anyone reading this thread really cares.
As for your fictional fact that a student needs 1400 on the SAT that is pure fantasy on your part. The "middle 50%" SAT range for the 2016 admitted class was 1290-1470. That means that 25% of the students admitted scored below 1290. Those numbers put Villanova on par with Fordham.
As for admissions status, both Fordham and Villanova are classified as "Exceptional ". That is also reflected in the similar GPA's of students. However, both Georgetown and Boston College are classified as "Elite" which is the standard of all the Ivy League schools.
As far as the Villanova demographics I stand by what I said. OTIS, in response to a PELL statistic that JSJ quoted addressed St. John's but you will notice he didn't include Villanova at less than 13%. That's because 87% of the family incomes of Villanova students exceed the cap of $50,000. Actually they exceed it by a large number. They have fewer PELL eligible students than Yale and Berkeley.
BTW, speaking of speculation, there is no published data on the test scores of legacy students at BC. Too bad you started your retort with fiction. But it begs the question when it comes to donating to your university in the group of schools mentioned in our discourse. BC has an endowment of $2.4 billion while Georgetown has an endowment of $1.6 billion. Of course both are dwarfed by ND at $11.8 billion.:eek:hmy:
Villanova donors appear to be rather tight for such an "exceptional" school. Their endowment was less than St. John's at $645 million compared to $648 million for the just as successful St. John's alums.;)
I hope I didn't speculate too much in my response.:)[/quote]

Your response read as if Villanova is a school for rich kids who couldn't get into Georgetown. You may have compared it Marist, which isn't even in the same zip code as Georgetown, BC, Villanova, and Holy Cross. Those 4 are the class of Catholic schools in the eastern United States, and compare very well to the best schools in the country. The national rankings have certain quantitative measures, which Northeastern gamed to become a higher ranked school than their reputation suggested. Villanova is working on those measures, which is how they gained recognition as a national school. Look for them to move into the low 30s or below over the next 5 years. In any event, when your consider the schools that must be in the top 30, having Catholic schools like Notre Dame, Georgetown, and Boston College in that category really speaks well for Catholic education. Now if they could only fully live up to their mission.

On the basketball side, Georgetown has had a longer history, but I also remember them not being prominent in the early 70s when Villanova was prominent. They had one very good player pre-Ewing era, but I forgot his name. Either way, St. John's would be thrilled to get back to a tournament caliber team each season and bids maybe 2/3 of the time.

I know what the published numbers are, but I can tell from direct experience is that 1290 will not get you into Villanova - not even close. I don't know where your kids went or if you have kids, but in terms of competitiveness, I would say its Gtown, BC, Villanova, Holy Cross. I think Fordham is a great school considering their admission standards, but much easier to gain admission than to those 4. I've done the applications deal multiple times over the past dozen years, with the focus on Catholic Universities, and I know that the published numbers don't begin to tell the story.
 
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From recent experience: #1 ND, GTown, BC, HC, Nova, for Catholic universities, in that order nationally, based on my daughter's rejections, admissions, wait listing; got offered academic $ (Nova), in off wait list for HC, turned down BC wait list; rejected by GTown and ND (even though some strings were pulled at ND). Full ride Fordham, Loyola MD, Fairfield, not in the same grouping at all.
 
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