Techs and refs

[quote="Rehobie" post=326628]Complaints against the referees are not warranted. Ponds kills the clock dribbling 30 feet from the basket until about 15 seconds. Then we have to scramble for a shot, usually a hoist from deep. That is not a good way to draw fouls. Our style is not conducive to drawing, hence the disparity.

At one point Mullen was in the saying set the ball to the high post and drive to draw fouls. I remember only one entry pass to Clark who dropped it to Roberts for a dunk.[/quote]

all you said is true but we are still not getting a fair shake from the refs. IMHO
 
[quote="SJU61982" post=326586][quote="Section9" post=326579][quote="SJU61982" post=326569]The last two games that this ref Nathan Farrell has done at CA, the combined free throw attempts are 61 for the visitors, 11 for St. John's.

Even if you think Mullin is 100% in the wrong for this, that just can't be. That's just not a fair whistle. Taking care of that has to come first, IMO, then you deal with Mullin screaming and yelling.[/quote]

Look, I get the disparity in foul calls. But we have to recognize that bigger teams just physically beat us up. Be it pc, x or dep. They're not just taller, they're brawnier and can out muscle us and wear us down. The result is we foul and give up too many offensive rebounds. And when Chris starts his complaining and gesticulating it starts to wear on the refs. Compound that fact that most of the team have become world class complainers and act up, a lot. It's a recipe for disaster.

His first year Chris got away with a lot with the refs, but their tolerance level has grown shorter and shorter. Right or wrong, the refs hold us on a much tighter leash when it comes to the complaining and antics. We have to recognize that and control it. This lack of self control could cost us a game down the stretch. We can't afford to let that happen.[/quote]

If that's the case, it's going to take Mullin a long time to get back in these guys' good graces, maybe too long for him to survive here. So, he might as well continue doing what he's doing.

And, what was the Norm Roberts excuse? He never said anything to the refs for a long time here, and I always thought our teams got walked over because of that. Any 50/50 call would go against us, because the refs knew he wouldn't say anything afterwords. Now there were some different refs back then, but some of those guys are still around.

I'm sorry 50 less FTs in two games can't be chalked up to just being a smaller team. And if it is attitude, then the refs are no better then our guys, IMO.[/quote]

So Mullin doesn't try to change, continues to harangue the refs, the players take their cue from him, guess what's going to happen? More techs. We've got two league games left, our second leading scorer is gimpy and Ponds may have issues with his wrist. We have very little margin for error and, like it or not, fair or not, the refs are going to be watching us very closely. We could very well lose the next two and flame out in the BE. Then what?

Whether you disagree with the foul disparity or not, it's a fact. And we have to face two physical teams who beat us up on the road. Ranting and raving by the coach and players is not going to help the situation.

BTW, the Roberts comparo is quite a stretch; we all love to hate the refs, and deservedly so in many instances, but saying that about Roberts is out there.
 
[quote="Section9" post=326647][quote="SJU61982" post=326586][quote="Section9" post=326579][quote="SJU61982" post=326569]The last two games that this ref Nathan Farrell has done at CA, the combined free throw attempts are 61 for the visitors, 11 for St. John's.

Even if you think Mullin is 100% in the wrong for this, that just can't be. That's just not a fair whistle. Taking care of that has to come first, IMO, then you deal with Mullin screaming and yelling.[/quote]

Look, I get the disparity in foul calls. But we have to recognize that bigger teams just physically beat us up. Be it pc, x or dep. They're not just taller, they're brawnier and can out muscle us and wear us down. The result is we foul and give up too many offensive rebounds. And when Chris starts his complaining and gesticulating it starts to wear on the refs. Compound that fact that most of the team have become world class complainers and act up, a lot. It's a recipe for disaster.

His first year Chris got away with a lot with the refs, but their tolerance level has grown shorter and shorter. Right or wrong, the refs hold us on a much tighter leash when it comes to the complaining and antics. We have to recognize that and control it. This lack of self control could cost us a game down the stretch. We can't afford to let that happen.[/quote]

If that's the case, it's going to take Mullin a long time to get back in these guys' good graces, maybe too long for him to survive here. So, he might as well continue doing what he's doing.

And, what was the Norm Roberts excuse? He never said anything to the refs for a long time here, and I always thought our teams got walked over because of that. Any 50/50 call would go against us, because the refs knew he wouldn't say anything afterwords. Now there were some different refs back then, but some of those guys are still around.

I'm sorry 50 less FTs in two games can't be chalked up to just being a smaller team. And if it is attitude, then the refs are no better then our guys, IMO.[/quote]

So Mullin doesn't try to change, continues to harangue the refs, the players take their cue from him, guess what's going to happen? More techs. We've got two league games left, our second leading scorer is gimpy and Ponds may have issues with his wrist. We have very little margin for error and, like it or not, fair or not, the refs are going to be watching us very closely. We could very well lose the next two and flame out in the BE. Then what?

Whether you disagree with the foul disparity or not, it's a fact. And we have to face two physical teams who beat us up on the road. Ranting and raving by the coach and players is not going to help the situation.

BTW, the Roberts comparo is quite a stretch; we all love to hate the refs, and deservedly so in many instances, but saying that about Roberts is out there.[/quote]

You're right about the players. 100%. Mullin needs to give them a "do as I say, not as I do" decree. It might be too late for this crop of players, since most of their reputations are set, but it still would be nice to get started on that (should have happened long ago). I know that if I were a player (a dream that died at a very early age, BTW), and I was playing for a coach who was as passionate as Mullin was in fighting battles for his players, I'd like to think I would run through a wall for that guy. If he's going to fight that hard for me, the least I can do is meet him halfway. Somehow, that message is not getting across, or it's being misinterpreted by the team.

The Roberts thing: You sit with me at the games, as you did back then (for those on here who don't know). You know that complaint is not a new thing from me. It really only manifested itself on 50/50 type plays. Block/charge. Out of bounds. Was it a backcourt violation? Was it a goaltend? Refs hear it from the other side 99.9% of the time they make calls like that, regardless of outcome. So I think, subliminally, they felt it would be nice to make that call, and not hear about it, for once. It was not done out of malice, or even intentionally. It also was not consistently done over the course of a game. Maybe 2 or 3 times a game, things like that came up. Unfortunately, that can mean the difference in a game, sometimes (just, not usually when Roberts was here, since we were usually getting blown out).
 
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[quote="Marillac" post=326448]If you polled all the college sports writers and coaches on which team has been screwed the most by officials, St. John’s would get 90% of the votes.

The officialsand Stu were embarrassed every step of the way from the SH debacle from the blown call to the coverup.

We don’t make it easy to bury the hatchet either. Marv is the worst. He will drill a player with an obvious foul and then throw his hands up and complain. When you do that on obvious calls you lose all credibility.[/quote]
I have named that “Clarkeing”. It’s as if he tells the ref “...if you thought that foul was obvious, watch this one...”.
 
[quote="Ray Morgan" post=326451]Referees in college basketball have become like referees in pro wrestling. They have become too much of the story, Between the crap with flagrant 1 and 2 fouls, and technicals seemingly every game or 2, it's gotten out of hand. Their job is to call the game fairly, but let the players decide the outcome. They hate being shown up, but blew enough calls to have deserved the constant attacks by Mullin. Simon doesn't touch Hankins on a dunk, and gets called. Hankins body bumps Ponds, and the refs look the other way. They missed 3 clean blocks/strips by Clark and Ponds, all resulting in points by Xavier. The team was over matched by too much size and too much of Marshall tonight, but got put away by the referees. The league office embarrassed themselves after the Seton Hall farce. They should have admitted the ref blew it, and left it at that. I'm waiting for one of the refs to slip a foreign object to our first round opponent in the Big East tournament.[/quote]
Or pull a Toru Tanaka and throw the powder in our eyes
 
[quote="SJU61982" post=326586][quote="Section9" post=326579][quote="SJU61982" post=326569]The last two games that this ref Nathan Farrell has done at CA, the combined free throw attempts are 61 for the visitors, 11 for St. John's.

Even if you think Mullin is 100% in the wrong for this, that just can't be. That's just not a fair whistle. Taking care of that has to come first, IMO, then you deal with Mullin screaming and yelling.[/quote]

Look, I get the disparity in foul calls. But we have to recognize that bigger teams just physically beat us up. Be it pc, x or dep. They're not just taller, they're brawnier and can out muscle us and wear us down. The result is we foul and give up too many offensive rebounds. And when Chris starts his complaining and gesticulating it starts to wear on the refs. Compound that fact that most of the team have become world class complainers and act up, a lot. It's a recipe for disaster.

His first year Chris got away with a lot with the refs, but their tolerance level has grown shorter and shorter. Right or wrong, the refs hold us on a much tighter leash when it comes to the complaining and antics. We have to recognize that and control it. This lack of self control could cost us a game down the stretch. We can't afford to let that happen.[/quote]

If that's the case, it's going to take Mullin a long time to get back in these guys' good graces, maybe too long for him to survive here. So, he might as well continue doing what he's doing.

And, what was the Norm Roberts excuse? He never said anything to the refs for a long time here, and I always thought our teams got walked over because of that. Any 50/50 call would go against us, because the refs knew he wouldn't say anything afterwords. Now there were some different refs back then, but some of those guys are still around.

I'm sorry 50 less FTs in two games can't be chalked up to just being a smaller team. And if it is attitude, then the refs are no better then our guys, IMO.[/quote]
And it’s not just about the fouls that were actually called. It’s also about the non calls.

Ponds was blatantly fouled on at least 3 drives last night in full view of the refs with no call. I believe it was deliberate.
 
[quote="Section3" post=326661][quote="Ray Morgan" post=326451]Referees in college basketball have become like referees in pro wrestling. They have become too much of the story, Between the crap with flagrant 1 and 2 fouls, and technicals seemingly every game or 2, it's gotten out of hand. Their job is to call the game fairly, but let the players decide the outcome. They hate being shown up, but blew enough calls to have deserved the constant attacks by Mullin. Simon doesn't touch Hankins on a dunk, and gets called. Hankins body bumps Ponds, and the refs look the other way. They missed 3 clean blocks/strips by Clark and Ponds, all resulting in points by Xavier. The team was over matched by too much size and too much of Marshall tonight, but got put away by the referees. The league office embarrassed themselves after the Seton Hall farce. They should have admitted the ref blew it, and left it at that. I'm waiting for one of the refs to slip a foreign object to our first round opponent in the Big East tournament.[/quote]
Or pull a Toru Tanaka and throw the powder in our eyes[/quote]

Tanaka threw salt, but powder would work just as well.
 
[quote="Ray Morgan" post=326666][quote="Section3" post=326661][quote="Ray Morgan" post=326451]Referees in college basketball have become like referees in pro wrestling. They have become too much of the story, Between the crap with flagrant 1 and 2 fouls, and technicals seemingly every game or 2, it's gotten out of hand. Their job is to call the game fairly, but let the players decide the outcome. They hate being shown up, but blew enough calls to have deserved the constant attacks by Mullin. Simon doesn't touch Hankins on a dunk, and gets called. Hankins body bumps Ponds, and the refs look the other way. They missed 3 clean blocks/strips by Clark and Ponds, all resulting in points by Xavier. The team was over matched by too much size and too much of Marshall tonight, but got put away by the referees. The league office embarrassed themselves after the Seton Hall farce. They should have admitted the ref blew it, and left it at that. I'm waiting for one of the refs to slip a foreign object to our first round opponent in the Big East tournament.[/quote]
Or pull a Toru Tanaka and throw the powder in our eyes[/quote]

Tanaka threw salt, but powder would work just as well.[/quote]thought it was salt but couldn’t remember.
 
[quote="SJU61982" post=326654][quote="Section9" post=326647][quote="SJU61982" post=326586][quote="Section9" post=326579][quote="SJU61982" post=326569]The last two games that this ref Nathan Farrell has done at CA, the combined free throw attempts are 61 for the visitors, 11 for St. John's.

Even if you think Mullin is 100% in the wrong for this, that just can't be. That's just not a fair whistle. Taking care of that has to come first, IMO, then you deal with Mullin screaming and yelling.[/quote]

Look, I get the disparity in foul calls. But we have to recognize that bigger teams just physically beat us up. Be it pc, x or dep. They're not just taller, they're brawnier and can out muscle us and wear us down. The result is we foul and give up too many offensive rebounds. And when Chris starts his complaining and gesticulating it starts to wear on the refs. Compound that fact that most of the team have become world class complainers and act up, a lot. It's a recipe for disaster.

His first year Chris got away with a lot with the refs, but their tolerance level has grown shorter and shorter. Right or wrong, the refs hold us on a much tighter leash when it comes to the complaining and antics. We have to recognize that and control it. This lack of self control could cost us a game down the stretch. We can't afford to let that happen.[/quote]

If that's the case, it's going to take Mullin a long time to get back in these guys' good graces, maybe too long for him to survive here. So, he might as well continue doing what he's doing.

And, what was the Norm Roberts excuse? He never said anything to the refs for a long time here, and I always thought our teams got walked over because of that. Any 50/50 call would go against us, because the refs knew he wouldn't say anything afterwords. Now there were some different refs back then, but some of those guys are still around.

I'm sorry 50 less FTs in two games can't be chalked up to just being a smaller team. And if it is attitude, then the refs are no better then our guys, IMO.[/quote]

So Mullin doesn't try to change, continues to harangue the refs, the players take their cue from him, guess what's going to happen? More techs. We've got two league games left, our second leading scorer is gimpy and Ponds may have issues with his wrist. We have very little margin for error and, like it or not, fair or not, the refs are going to be watching us very closely. We could very well lose the next two and flame out in the BE. Then what?

Whether you disagree with the foul disparity or not, it's a fact. And we have to face two physical teams who beat us up on the road. Ranting and raving by the coach and players is not going to help the situation.

BTW, the Roberts comparo is quite a stretch; we all love to hate the refs, and deservedly so in many instances, but saying that about Roberts is out there.[/quote]

You're right about the players. 100%. Mullin needs to give them a "do as I say, not as I do" decree. It might be too late for this crop of players, since most of their reputations are set, but it still would be nice to get started on that (should have happened long ago). I know that if I were a player (a dream that died at a very early age, BTW), and I was playing for a coach who was as passionate as Mullin was in fighting battles for his players, I'd like to think I would run through a wall for that guy. If he's going to fight that hard for me, the least I can do is meet him halfway. Somehow, that message is not getting across, or it's being misinterpreted by the team.

The Roberts thing: You sit with me at the games, as you did back then (for those on here who don't know). You know that complaint is not a new thing from me. It really only manifested itself on 50/50 type plays. Block/charge. Out of bounds. Was it a backcourt violation? Was it a goaltend? Refs hear it from the other side 99.9% of the time they make calls like that, regardless of outcome. So I think, subliminally, they felt it would be nice to make that call, and not hear about it, for once. It was not done out of malice, or even intentionally. It also was not consistently done over the course of a game. Maybe 2 or 3 times a game, things like that came up. Unfortunately, that can mean the difference in a game, sometimes (just, not usually when Roberts was here, since we were usually getting blown out).[/quote]

How's the weather in Tampa? Enjoy the Yankee games.
 
[quote="Section9" post=326706][quote="SJU61982" post=326654][quote="Section9" post=326647][quote="SJU61982" post=326586][quote="Section9" post=326579][quote="SJU61982" post=326569]The last two games that this ref Nathan Farrell has done at CA, the combined free throw attempts are 61 for the visitors, 11 for St. John's.

Even if you think Mullin is 100% in the wrong for this, that just can't be. That's just not a fair whistle. Taking care of that has to come first, IMO, then you deal with Mullin screaming and yelling.[/quote]

Look, I get the disparity in foul calls. But we have to recognize that bigger teams just physically beat us up. Be it pc, x or dep. They're not just taller, they're brawnier and can out muscle us and wear us down. The result is we foul and give up too many offensive rebounds. And when Chris starts his complaining and gesticulating it starts to wear on the refs. Compound that fact that most of the team have become world class complainers and act up, a lot. It's a recipe for disaster.

His first year Chris got away with a lot with the refs, but their tolerance level has grown shorter and shorter. Right or wrong, the refs hold us on a much tighter leash when it comes to the complaining and antics. We have to recognize that and control it. This lack of self control could cost us a game down the stretch. We can't afford to let that happen.[/quote]

If that's the case, it's going to take Mullin a long time to get back in these guys' good graces, maybe too long for him to survive here. So, he might as well continue doing what he's doing.

And, what was the Norm Roberts excuse? He never said anything to the refs for a long time here, and I always thought our teams got walked over because of that. Any 50/50 call would go against us, because the refs knew he wouldn't say anything afterwords. Now there were some different refs back then, but some of those guys are still around.

I'm sorry 50 less FTs in two games can't be chalked up to just being a smaller team. And if it is attitude, then the refs are no better then our guys, IMO.[/quote]

So Mullin doesn't try to change, continues to harangue the refs, the players take their cue from him, guess what's going to happen? More techs. We've got two league games left, our second leading scorer is gimpy and Ponds may have issues with his wrist. We have very little margin for error and, like it or not, fair or not, the refs are going to be watching us very closely. We could very well lose the next two and flame out in the BE. Then what?

Whether you disagree with the foul disparity or not, it's a fact. And we have to face two physical teams who beat us up on the road. Ranting and raving by the coach and players is not going to help the situation.

BTW, the Roberts comparo is quite a stretch; we all love to hate the refs, and deservedly so in many instances, but saying that about Roberts is out there.[/quote]

You're right about the players. 100%. Mullin needs to give them a "do as I say, not as I do" decree. It might be too late for this crop of players, since most of their reputations are set, but it still would be nice to get started on that (should have happened long ago). I know that if I were a player (a dream that died at a very early age, BTW), and I was playing for a coach who was as passionate as Mullin was in fighting battles for his players, I'd like to think I would run through a wall for that guy. If he's going to fight that hard for me, the least I can do is meet him halfway. Somehow, that message is not getting across, or it's being misinterpreted by the team.

The Roberts thing: You sit with me at the games, as you did back then (for those on here who don't know). You know that complaint is not a new thing from me. It really only manifested itself on 50/50 type plays. Block/charge. Out of bounds. Was it a backcourt violation? Was it a goaltend? Refs hear it from the other side 99.9% of the time they make calls like that, regardless of outcome. So I think, subliminally, they felt it would be nice to make that call, and not hear about it, for once. It was not done out of malice, or even intentionally. It also was not consistently done over the course of a game. Maybe 2 or 3 times a game, things like that came up. Unfortunately, that can mean the difference in a game, sometimes (just, not usually when Roberts was here, since we were usually getting blown out).[/quote]

How's the weather in Tampa? Enjoy the Yankee games.[/quote]

My flight was cancelled this morning. Fortunately, I got on a late afternoon flight. Not going to get there until about 8 pm, about 6 hours later then originally expected.
 
Refs make or break a lot of these games.

Of all the issues around this sport, the poor officiating is probably number one. Perhaps the five foul rule and the shorter length of the game accentuate the impact of bad calls.

It has also been pointed out how the pay by the game structure leads to tired refs trying to do too many games.

The one thing that should change is the relationship coaches seem to have with officials and with supervisors of officials (former officials). Coach K can make or break an official and they all know it.
 
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[quote="OLV72" post=326715]Refs make or break a lot of these games.

Of all the issues around this sport, the poor officiating is probably number one. Perhaps the five foul rule and the shorter length of the game accentuate the impact of bad calls.

It has also been pointed out how the pay by the game structure leads to tired refs trying to do too many games.

The one thing that should change is the relationship coaches seem to have with officials and with supervisors of officials (former officials). Coach K can make or break an official and they all know it.[/quote]. I would hope that AD Cragg, quietly and confidentially , has reached out to Val Ackerman and Stu Jackson to discuss Nathan Farrell and Mike Stephens and questioning their fairness in officiating any of our Games for the rest of our Season . . I also believe the issue of Coaches and Officials fraternizing on the sidelines during Games be addressed as well ...Cooley seems to have way too much fun on the Sidelines chatting them up . It doesn’t contribute to the standard of fairness in calling game .
 
I once saw Greenberg smooze the refs for 20 minutes before a game. The refs barely said hello to Norm.

I knew we were screwed
 
[quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=326717][quote="OLV72" post=326715]Refs make or break a lot of these games.

Of all the issues around this sport, the poor officiating is probably number one. Perhaps the five foul rule and the shorter length of the game accentuate the impact of bad calls.

It has also been pointed out how the pay by the game structure leads to tired refs trying to do too many games.

The one thing that should change is the relationship coaches seem to have with officials and with supervisors of officials (former officials). Coach K can make or break an official and they all know it.[/quote]. I would hope that AD Cragg, quietly and confidentially , has reached out to Val Ackerman and Stu Jackson to discuss Nathan Farrell and Mike Stephens and questioning their fairness in officiating any of our Games for the rest of our Season . . I also believe the issue of Coaches and Officials fraternizing on the sidelines during Games be addressed as well ...Cooley seems to have way too much fun on the Sidelines chatting them up . It doesn’t contribute to the standard of fairness in calling game .[/quote]

I would hope Cragg has also talked to the team (and the staff) about their attitudes as well, because that does need improving, even if it can't be fixed in the short term.

The people who have roasting those like me, who killed the refs performance the other night, are not wrong about Mullin, and the team's, reactions to calls. I just thought it was wrong that some posters used that to justify the refs' performances.
 
This battle is one that Mullin cannot win. At 61 to 11 or whatever it was Mullin had every right to explode but that just plays into the referees hands, allowing them to call a tech which makes them the winner.
Even if they keep the worst offender off SJU games the brotherhood of officials will take up the banned officials side and make SJU pay the price. It can be extremely difficult to hold one's temper in important games when you feel you are being hosed but there is no other way. The refs hold all the cards and they will hold the SHU complaints against SJU even though they were justified.
 
24 first free throws and 1 tech, we better win this game we are so much better them its scary!
 
[quote="Tommy O 54" post=327049]24 first free throws and 1 tech, we better win this game we are so much better them its scary![/quote]
Yes scary. We are so much better than them we lost both games to them this year. It's a good thing they are not better than us because then you don't know what might have happened.
 
Stu Jackson and every single regular official needs to be gone at season’s end. The Big East needs a complete purge.
 
75 FT attempts for last 2 opponents. 33 for us. Every other team gets their home refs except us. We are a bad team but we look way worse with these POS refs who clearly have it out for Mullin.
 
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