SJU Fan Tradition Continues-Blame The Coach

[beast of the east]

I don't get this whole "Norm restored our reputation" thing. Why? Because there wasn't another sex scandal? How often does something like that happen, regardless of who is coach?

He certainly didn't restore our reputation with regard to win-loss record and recruiting.

So we are reliving the Norm years? I think we all have a short memory-or maybe I have a bad one. From what I recall, there was talk of dumping the whole program if another incident happened. The program's reputation was so tarnished that finding the right coach may have been difficult. Who did you want us to hire? Calipari? No chance we were heading there at that time. No coach would want the limitations Norm accepted, which was do it squeaky clean. No gray areas. No Grady Reynolds types. No chances of any kind. I believed then that Norm was the stopgap hire. Keep things clean, restore order, and given a thank you for your service. Father Harrington was shell shocked by the Jarvis years and the scandal that soon followed. Norm did as he was told. That's what the school was looking for, and received. If it was about wins only, he would not have be given the job.

Money would have solved it all. Norm wasn't hired as the only person who wanted the job, but from a limited pool of guys interviewed to work at $600 K per, when the going rate for quality was much higher. Remember, FH overrode the selection committee, and hired the candidate with the weakest head coaching record. I suspect he was chosen as a finalist by the committee head the same way a real estate broker shows someone a crappy house in the same price range as the house he wants to sell you, to make your decision clear. FH instead was enamored by a Queens guy who professed his lifelong love of SJU, and how this was his dream job. FH proved to be pretty weak at important hires, including Roberts, Chang, and Wile.

 

[mjmaherjr]

I think it's pretty obvious now that Fr Harrington cheaped out on the coaching search after Jarvis because he needed to save money so he could spend it on himself

 

[beast of the east]

I think it's pretty obvious now that Fr Harrington cheaped out on the coaching search after Jarvis because he needed to save money so he could spend it on himself

He should have asked Cecilia Chang to pay for a new coach. She'd find a donor, and then bill it back to the school, with a nice little cash payout for FH to give to the poor.

 

[mjmaherjr]

I think it's pretty obvious now that Fr Harrington cheaped out on the coaching search after Jarvis because he needed to save money so he could spend it on himself

He should have asked Cecilia Chang to pay for a new coach. She'd find a donor, and then bill it back to the school, with a nice little cash payout for FH to give to the poor.

True. Too bad Fr Harrington's wine delivery this year will be from Stew Leonards instead of what he got accustomed to with Chang

 

[SJUISBACK]

no one is posting that lavin should be fired.

it's frustrating, however, that we're sweating out wagner and bucknell in year four.

honestly, did anyone think that would be the case when lavin was hired?

Nope, third year with his recruits I expected SJU to be right around Arizona is. Wasn`t Sendek hired the same year as Lavin or maybe a year before him? Well it`s year three, time to get some results.

Sendek is at Arizona State. This is his 8th year at Arizona State. He's only been to one NCAA Tournament since he's been in Tempe. Not to mention, Lavin beat him in the Great Alaska Shootout Championship game. But, you might've been referring to Miller at Arizona.

It's actually Lavin's 2nd year with his recruits, as he was out most of their freshman season.

Yeah I meant #6 Arizona and coach Miller.

Oh my bad it`s his second year with his recruits, but the ones here 2 years ago are juniors now, so it`s actually their 3rd year here.

 

[oldfan61]

Disgraceful!
I'm not sure we all went to the same school.
If we did you would have learned that ad hominem attacks (it's under A in the dictionary) render your arguments invalid.
Let's directly answer how the' worst coach ever in the history of organized basketball' won more games in his last two years than our current team has won in their last two years. Beyond name calling and one upmanship and a developed dislike of a man who continues to be very successful in his field as have his former co-workers, no one will even take a stab at explaining why he won more games in his final two years than the current crop of coaches and players with whom we are all very happy.
Don't get me wrong, I love this current team and it's coaches but, after 56 years of following STJ basketball many of them from a very up close and personal perspective, I have a modest sense of what it takes to win basketball games.
Please tackle the question of how the 'worst coach ever in history' won 5 more games in his last two years than a high profile guy, whom we all like, who has top ten recruiting years back to back and all star players overflowing the bench. No name calling and character assassinations (ad hominems) ; just state the merits in an explanation of how that could possibly happen and why the current group is not the most underachieving group in college basketball history, almost worthy of name calling and universal scorn..
The answer to the question is not to shout louder and call names. Just use the facts.

 

[MCNPA]

Disgraceful!
I'm not sure we all went to the same school.
If we did you would have learned that ad hominem attacks (it's under A in the dictionary) render your arguments invalid.
Let's directly answer how the' worst coach ever in the history of organized basketball' won more games in his last two years than our current team has won in their last two years. Beyond name calling and one upmanship and a developed dislike of a man who continues to be very successful in his field as have his former co-workers, no one will even take a stab at explaining why he won more games in his final two years than the current crop of coaches and players with whom we are all very happy.
Don't get me wrong, I love this current team and it's coaches but, after 56 years of following STJ basketball many of them from a very up close and personal perspective, I have a modest sense of what it takes to win basketball games.
Please tackle the question of how the 'worst coach ever in history' won 5 more games in his last two years than a high profile guy, whom we all like, who has top ten recruiting years back to back and all star players overflowing the bench. No name calling and character assassinations (ad hominems) ; just state the merits in an explanation of how that could possibly happen and why the current group is not the most underachieving group in college basketball history, almost worthy of name calling and universal scorn..
The answer to the question is not to shout louder and call names. Just use the facts.

"just state the merits in an explanation of how that could possibly happen and why the current group is not the most underachieving group in college basketball history, almost worthy of name calling and universal scorn.."

Simple... We have played only 2 games...

 

[NYCRedmen]

Truth be told I have no idea what this thread is about anymore, but Oldfan, how can you call the current group underachieving? They went from a losing record and no post season in year one, to a 2nd Round NIT appearance in year two. They've only played 2 games so far in year 3, isn't the jury still out on whether they have underachieved?

Also, are you using 2012 in your coaching comparison, when Lavin only coached 4 games?

 

[oldfan61]

Au contraire. I did not call this young group anything but fine young men representative of our University and potentially among the best teams we have ever had. I challenged the nay-sayers about Coach Roberts. How can they justify with logic how these fine young men ansd theit accomplished coaching staff won only 30 games in the LAST TWO YEARS whereas Coach Roberts and his young men won 35 games in his last two coaching years. How come they don't call the present team bums but insist on flailing a guy who produced a record better than theirs in his last two years. It is not about the kids or the coach. It's not about the last two games. It's about comparative records in both teams last TWO YEARS..
I love Lavin and his players, especially Harrison but all of them are great. So were the kids and coach before them. Everyone.s argument about Roberts falls apart and becomes name calling when you compare records for the last two years.

 

[simplyred]

The only difference I would point out, Oldfan, is that Norm was in his 6th year, had been given a full opportunity to rebuild the program, and had pretty much reached his ceiling. Lavin, while he has not had overwhelming success on the W-L front, has started building from not so much the Sr. laden team he inherited, but from the empty roster he had in his 2nd year. He has taken us to another level on the recruiting front and the ceiling is much higher.

That being said, I appreciate Norm for what he did for us. As was pointed out, Harrington talked about shutting down the program. I remember my reaction when I heard that---and fear that it might actually happen. Norm had no margin for error in terms of the program's reputation. He did an admirable job, considering the restrictions he had to work under. Had we hired a Scott Drew and given him free reign, we might have gotten a lot more victories.

It is difficult for fans, when they have friends and family who root for more successful programs, not to feel a sense of inferiority, resulting in anger toward the coach and administration that can't bring them the success the feel they deserve. I try to take things in perspective. I want wins but I would never want to sacrifice integrity for them.

 

[MJDinkins]

Au contraire. I did not call this young group anything but fine young men representative of our University and potentially among the best teams we have ever had. I challenged the nay-sayers about Coach Roberts. How can they justify with logic how these fine young men ansd theit accomplished coaching staff won only 30 games in the LAST TWO YEARS whereas Coach Roberts and his young men won 35 games in his last two coaching years. How come they don't call the present team bums but insist on flailing a guy who produced a record better than theirs in his last two years. It is not about the kids or the coach. It's not about the last two games. It's about comparative records in both teams last TWO YEARS..
I love Lavin and his players, especially Harrison but all of them are great. So were the kids and coach before them. Everyone.s argument about Roberts falls apart and becomes name calling when you compare records for the last two years.

I've also gotten lost in this thread, as well, NYCRedmen.

@oldfan: Roberts actually won 33 games during his last two seasons. But how come you're cherry picking? That would fall in line with fallacy, right?

The best argument would be using their coaching career records, right?

Lavin also didn't have back-to-back top 10 classes, either. He had a top 5 recruiting class during his first recruiting season. The best class he's had since then was a top 20 class (2012 recruiting class). Those are the facts.

I've also heard Roberts is good guy, as I never really got the chance to meet him (met a couple of Roberts' assistants when he was at the helm). I rooted for him, and rooted for him hard. I fell off the Roberts bandwagon around his 5th season (whereas, many posters had long fallen off the 'wagon, if they were ever on from the start). I stopped watching games after the Providence debacle in Carnesecca Arena during the 2nd conference game of his 6th and final season.

He had 6 seasons to right the ship, and he didn't do an admirable job from a record standpoint.

 

[fun]

He had 6 seasons to right the ship, and he didn't do an admirable job from a record standpoint.

Thanks for the newsflash. Any updates on the Crimean War you could share?

 

[mjmaherjr]

Disgraceful!

Please tackle the question of how the 'worst coach ever in history' won 5 more games in his last two years than a high profile guy, whom we all like, who has top ten recruiting years back to back and all star players overflowing the bench.quote]





I dont need to tackle that because all I need is his record. 105-185 over 6 years. That's one of the worst ever in big east history

Let's just end the argumrnt because I'm so over Norm and Jarvis and life is too short reinvenrting history. Lavin is our coach. I'm happy with that. He needs to produce just like any coach should.

Let's hope for a great year

 

[newsman13]

this thread is all about rewriting history, starting with oldfan's gushing over 100 years of pristine basketball. he forgot about the point shaving scandal we had during the lapchick years.
he should read connie hawkins' book about looie's recruitment of him.
there was no scandal with mahoney, but frashilla's nutscapade isn't forgotten by anyone but oldfan.
jarvis wasn't around when several basketball players gave in to the pittsburgh temptress.
heck, FH modeled his career on jarvis'.
oldfan should remember the suspensions and jettisoning of a huge number of those high quality roberts' players he gushes about.
gee, maybe lavin isn't so bad, afterall.

 

[Ray Morgan]

this thread is all about rewriting history, starting with oldfan's gushing over 100 years of pristine basketball. he forgot about the point shaving scandal we had during the lapchick years.
he should read connie hawkins' book about looie's recruitment of him.
there was no scandal with mahoney, but frashilla's nutscapade isn't forgotten by anyone but oldfan.
jarvis wasn't around when several basketball players gave in to the pittsburgh temptress.
heck, FH modeled his career on jarvis'.
oldfan should remember the suspensions and jettisoning of a huge number of those high quality roberts' players he gushes about.
gee, maybe lavin isn't so bad, afterall.

In general, the difference between a clean winning program and a dirty winning program is that the clean winning program never got caught. As to the purpose of this thread, it's to highlight the history of fans, since Looie, to blame the losses (and there have been many) on failed strategies instead of flawed players. Mahoney didn't use Lopez properly, Norm couldn't make the right halftime adjustments, Lavin doesn't press full court. As if we all know what's ailing the team more than the coaches. What's been missing since Looie left is recruiting the right players to play winning basketball year in and year out. While the coaches post Looie were barely adequate (just look at their coaching careers, or lack thereof, after SJU), their downfall was in the recruiting department, not in their failure to diagram the right plays on a chalkboard.

 

[L J S A]

My guess is that Oldfan has met Norm, Norm was nice to him, so Oldfan defends him. There were a few other guys like that on the board, but they eventually were able to separate Norm the nice guy at alum functions from Norm the horribly inept coach. A friendship with Bill Self was the greatest thing to ever happen to him.

 

[westchesterjoe]

I consider Lavin Coaching the team for 4 years, including Dunlap's year. Dunlap was Steve's top assistant, became a NBA Coach and, no doubt Coached exactly like Lavin would have that year.
Dunlap is widely viewed as a top notch planner, strategist, etc. Perhaps even more technically skilled than Lavin himself. Although, I believe Steve is more people savvy.

And, let's not dump on him last year for Charlotte.. That's on AIR JORDAN.

 

[lawmanfan]

I don't see any reason for posters to attack Oldfan, who is a longtime fan and supporter of the program.

Those without short-term memory loss can probably appreciate where he is coming from. The University (and folks like Oldfan) view the "success" of the basketball program as something more than just wins and losses. They want to win, but they also want the program to be run and to be populated with citizens that are a credit to the school. Some may think that is an antiquated view, but it's certainly understandable. For those people, the end of the Jarvis era was an embarrassment on many levels. As a result, they were willing to sacrifice more immediate on-court success (or the possibility, anyway) in favor of bringing in someone who was an upstanding citizen who they thought would build the program over time. I'd hazard a guess that some of them are still a little miffed that Norm didn't get a chance to coach his seniors.

Obviously there are lots of folks here who don't agree with any of that, and for whom the only relevant question is whether we are winning games. That's your right, just as it is Oldfan's right to have a different opinion. There's no reason to attack anyone for that kind of philosophical difference.

Having said all that, Norm was a mediocre coach who tended to make the least of the talent he recruited, especially on the offensive end of the floor. I personally found it hard to judge the talent sometimes because of what he did to them. Who knows what Justin Burrell, Larry Wright, DJ Kennedy, and others would have done with a better coach? (Note that I have omitted Sean Evans just to annoy Bobre). He finally started winning some games towards the end of his tenure because he had a group of players who had been together for long enough to find roles and develop some chemistry. Picking up Dwight Hardy helped too, though he managed to misuse him and make the least of his ability (par for the Norm course).

Lavin has clearly recruited better talent. It remains to be seen what he does with it. If Oldfan is suggesting that Norm might be a better coach (not recruiter) than Lavin, or perhaps that their coaching ability is comparable, then I don't think that's off-the-wall crazy. Norm's teams certainly played much better defense than Lavin's teams have, and probably presented more options on the offensive end.

It's worth noting that Lavin's best team thus far was the one with Norm's players, especially Hardy, who was a Norm recruit.

Lavin is a much better recruiter and will ultimately win a lot more games based on talent alone (though again to Oldfan's point, Lavin started in a much better place than Norm did, and he started there because of Norm). By the end of this season we should know whether he's a better coach. I certainly hope so.

 

[otis]

he should read connie hawkins' book about looie's recruitment of him.
.

Please elaborate on what Mr. Hawkins wrote about his recruitment by St.John's.

Thanks.

 

[fuchsia]

He had 6 seasons to right the ship, and he didn't do an admirable job from a record standpoint.

Thanks for the newsflash. Any updates on the Crimean War you could share?

I think the Light Brigade is in big trouble.