SJU Fan Tradition Continues-Blame The Coach

[1and1sju]

I don't see any reason for posters to attack Oldfan, who is a longtime fan and supporter of the program.

Those without short-term memory loss can probably appreciate where he is coming from. The University (and folks like Oldfan) view the "success" of the basketball program as something more than just wins and losses. They want to win, but they also want the program to be run and to be populated with citizens that are a credit to the school. Some may think that is an antiquated view, but it's certainly understandable. For those people, the end of the Jarvis era was an embarrassment on many levels. As a result, they were willing to sacrifice more immediate on-court success (or the possibility, anyway) in favor of bringing in someone who was an upstanding citizen who they thought would build the program over time. I'd hazard a guess that some of them are still a little miffed that Norm didn't get a chance to coach his seniors.

Obviously there are lots of folks here who don't agree with any of that, and for whom the only relevant question is whether we are winning games. That's your right, just as it is Oldfan's right to have a different opinion. There's no reason to attack anyone for that kind of philosophical difference.

Having said all that, Norm was a mediocre coach who tended to make the least of the talent he recruited, especially on the offensive end of the floor. I personally found it hard to judge the talent sometimes because of what he did to them. Who knows what Justin Burrell, Larry Wright, DJ Kennedy, and others would have done with a better coach? (Note that I have omitted Sean Evans just to annoy Bobre). He finally started winning some games towards the end of his tenure because he had a group of players who had been together for long enough to find roles and develop some chemistry. Picking up Dwight Hardy helped too, though he managed to misuse him and make the least of his ability (par for the Norm course).

Lavin has clearly recruited better talent. It remains to be seen what he does with it. If Oldfan is suggesting that Norm might be a better coach (not recruiter) than Lavin, or perhaps that their coaching ability is comparable, then I don't think that's off-the-wall crazy. Norm's teams certainly played much better defense than Lavin's teams have, and probably presented more options on the offensive end.

It's worth noting that Lavin's best team thus far was the one with Norm's players, especially Hardy, who was a Norm recruit.

Lavin is a much better recruiter and will ultimately win a lot more games based on talent alone (though again to Oldfan's point, Lavin started in a much better place than Norm did, and he started there because of Norm). By the end of this season we should know whether he's a better coach. I certainly hope so.

I don't believe anyone attacked Oldfan, just the position he asserted.
And I don't accept certain premises that your post relies on. First, I don't think bringing some order and responsibility to the program following Jarvis's departure had to be at the expense of trying to win in the short-term. They aren't mutually exclusive goals. Plenty of people are good at their job and are also upstanding citizens.
Which leads me to my second point, I think yourself and Oldfan are essentially giving Norm credit for not being a disgrace to the University. In what other context would that be appropriate? Do Patterson and Cuomo get credit for not purchasing the services of a prostitute? No, of course not. It's expected that your Governor won't break the law. Does the next University President get a commendation if they don't misappropriate university funds? They shouldn't.

I don't disagree that Norm was a good man, I never had the opportunity to meet him, but I'm willing to take your word for it. And, from all evidence it appears as if he kept the program respectable in the school and broader community. Which is a good thing, for sure. And I would even admit that the aforementioned is part of the basketball coach's job description.

But I don't think that he deserves credit for not being as awful as his predecessors.

 

[fun]

But I don't think that he deserves credit for not being as awful as his predecessors.

You're still on wife number one, aren't you.

 

[newsman13]

he should read connie hawkins' book about looie's recruitment of him.
.

Please elaborate on what Mr. Hawkins wrote about his recruitment by St.John's.

Thanks.

Hawkins had been given cash and had numerous cash offers from colleges and NBA teams. This was the day of the territorial pick. The Knicks would have first dibs on a player who went to a New York area school. That's how they got Bill Bradley. Hawkins got sneakers and a St John's uniform from Looie, who went to Hawkins' high school coach and told him, according to the book, "We want Hawkins badly but I'm not going to bother you. You just collect all the offers. When you get them all, pick out the best one and show it to me. Then we'll top it, no matter what it is." .

 

[mkras99]

he should read connie hawkins' book about looie's recruitment of him.
.

Please elaborate on what Mr. Hawkins wrote about his recruitment by St.John's.

Thanks.

Hawkins had been given cash and had numerous cash offers from colleges and NBA teams. This was the day of the territorial pick. The Knicks would have first dibs on a player who went to a New York area school. That's how they got Bill Bradley. Hawkins got sneakers and a St John's uniform from Looie, who went to Hawkins' high school coach and told him, according to the book, "We want Hawkins badly but I'm not going to bother you. You just collect all the offers. When you get them all, pick out the best one and show it to me. Then we'll top it, no matter what it is." .

Was Lou even the coach when Hawkins was in high school?

 

[1and1sju]

he should read connie hawkins' book about looie's recruitment of him.
.

Please elaborate on what Mr. Hawkins wrote about his recruitment by St.John's.

Thanks.

Hawkins had been given cash and had numerous cash offers from colleges and NBA teams. This was the day of the territorial pick. The Knicks would have first dibs on a player who went to a New York area school. That's how they got Bill Bradley. Hawkins got sneakers and a St John's uniform from Looie, who went to Hawkins' high school coach and told him, according to the book, "We want Hawkins badly but I'm not going to bother you. You just collect all the offers. When you get them all, pick out the best one and show it to me. Then we'll top it, no matter what it is." .

Was Lou even the coach when Hawkins was in high school?

As an assistant maybe. When did he start?
His first season as head coach was '65. Hawkins was a HS senior in 1960.

 

[westchesterjoe]

On basketball merits alone,including recruiting, Norm Roberts was not a good Coach.. Like mjmaher said. 'his record says what it is.." or, something to that effect.

Many posters/fans saw that early on in Norm's tenure and commented on it. Many were criticized for that. Unjustly, I feel.

It's too bad the Fraschilla incident did not stay in the locker room, as kit should have.. Fran would have taken the Barkley, Artest , Postell team deeper into the tourney than Jarvis..

We likely would not have had to endure, either Jarvis or Roberts , if Fran had stayed. For a while anyway. We would not have had the losing seasons with Fraschilla that we had with Jarvis and Roberts.

Lavin deserves his 5 year tenure to build this Program to a winning level and that doesn't mean a second division BE Record. NCAA'S and a tourney win will be excellent results.

 

[austour]

Compare Robert's last two years to last year and this since it is more of an apples to apples with regard to the graduating class status of most of the players. Lavin obviously outperforms.

 

[BrookJersey Redmen]

Let's all calm down a bit here.

 

[simplyred]

But I don't think that he deserves credit for not being as awful as his predecessors.

You're still on wife number one, aren't you.

LOLOL!!!

 

[newsman13]

he should read connie hawkins' book about looie's recruitment of him.
.

Please elaborate on what Mr. Hawkins wrote about his recruitment by St.John's.

Thanks.

Hawkins had been given cash and had numerous cash offers from colleges and NBA teams. This was the day of the territorial pick. The Knicks would have first dibs on a player who went to a New York area school. That's how they got Bill Bradley. Hawkins got sneakers and a St John's uniform from Looie, who went to Hawkins' high school coach and told him, according to the book, "We want Hawkins badly but I'm not going to bother you. You just collect all the offers. When you get them all, pick out the best one and show it to me. Then we'll top it, no matter what it is." .

Was Lou even the coach when Hawkins was in high school?

As an assistant maybe. When did he start?
His first season as head coach was '65. Hawkins was a HS senior in 1960.

He was Joe Lapchick's assistant coach at the time.

 

[lawmanfan]

I think yourself and Oldfan are essentially giving Norm credit

I'm not giving Norm credit for very much of anything, actually.

 

[beast of the east]

he should read connie hawkins' book about looie's recruitment of him.
.

Please elaborate on what Mr. Hawkins wrote about his recruitment by St.John's.

Thanks.

Hawkins had been given cash and had numerous cash offers from colleges and NBA teams. This was the day of the territorial pick. The Knicks would have first dibs on a player who went to a New York area school. That's how they got Bill Bradley. Hawkins got sneakers and a St John's uniform from Looie, who went to Hawkins' high school coach and told him, according to the book, "We want Hawkins badly but I'm not going to bother you. You just collect all the offers. When you get them all, pick out the best one and show it to me. Then we'll top it, no matter what it is." .

Was Lou even the coach when Hawkins was in high school?

As an assistant maybe. When did he start?
His first season as head coach was '65. Hawkins was a HS senior in 1960.

He was Joe Lapchick's assistant coach at the time.

Uh oh.. So did Looie convey Lapchick's offer to match any offer? Put a hold on the statue immediately!!

 

[beast of the east]

Au contraire. I did not call this young group anything but fine young men representative of our University and potentially among the best teams we have ever had. I challenged the nay-sayers about Coach Roberts. How can they justify with logic how these fine young men ansd theit accomplished coaching staff won only 30 games in the LAST TWO YEARS whereas Coach Roberts and his young men won 35 games in his last two coaching years. How come they don't call the present team bums but insist on flailing a guy who produced a record better than theirs in his last two years. It is not about the kids or the coach. It's not about the last two games. It's about comparative records in both teams last TWO YEARS..
I love Lavin and his players, especially Harrison but all of them are great. So were the kids and coach before them. Everyone.s argument about Roberts falls apart and becomes name calling when you compare records for the last two years.

Maybe is Roberts had cancer I'd feel compelled to compare his last year years with Lavin's previous 2. if you remember, the wheels fell off that team after Nurideen Lindsay quit after 9 games, and Malik Stith quit over playing time - Lavin was too weakened by chemo to coach even though he tried very early. In fact, Malik Stith was the only carry over from NR's regime, and NR was playing him at point backing up Boothe his last season, while Hardy needed minutes.

Look truth be told, I was one of a handful of guys here who was rooting hard for Roberts to succeed at the end, when many reasoned it would be better if he lost and failed so the experiment would be over. There were guys wearing bags on their heads during games, and I said it was disrespectful.

Roberts may be a nice guy to have around a team, and help out on the recruiting end. Billy Donovan added him for a year - I don't know what Donovan thought of him and if their parting was mutual or one sided.

I'd not calling your posts disgraceful or wondering if we went to the same school. I am saying your loyalty to Roberts is misplaced. There were posters during Roberts last season that were egging people on, saying they knew BOT members and Roberts was staying a long time. To stir the pot by calling Roberts success here as something more important than winning is just wrong. Lots of inept nice guys who come to work on time every day, are congenial, and who work until quitting time get fired because they aren't up to the task - and that's what happened to Norm.

Do you really think it is disgraceful that anyone differs with your opinion? What I find distasteful is that your proclamation of what a fine job you feel Norm Roberts did here puts you on some sort of higher moral ground. I think being objective is a virtue, and while I can objectively say that winning with integrity is also a virtue, in athletics having integrity without winning is simply not enough.

If you recall Mike Jarvis' final weeks here, one of the straws that broke the camel's back was his declaration was that he couldn't care less about winning, that he was a teacher, and he was teaching young men. That comment was perceived as arrogance, combined with his earlier proclamations that he wasn't going to deal with the sleazy AAU coaches who bartered favors, jobs, and money for the rights to their players. It's funny how Jarvis is universally scorned for the results of those two positions, along with what happened after he was fired. For the record, the money slipped to players under the table to help with living expenses has been happening in "clean" programs since the first days of poor kids stepping foot on college campuses. He wasn't the first, won't be the last, and may not even have been in the minority.

The notion that Roberts recruited really good kids and that being admirable is also a load of garbage. If colleges start to restrict recruiting to only kids of the highest moral fiber who aren't rough around the edges, don't come from places where many of us would be afraid to walk. I'm reminded of a kid on my daughter's AAU team who needed rides to games. She lived in a project, and one of her teammates would have her Mom drive to pick the kid up. The teammate, a pretty tough kid herself, would not dare to step foot into the building where the kid lived.

I'm reminded that one of the better players to come out of NYC over the past 30 years, Derrick Chievous, had a home life so rough that all of his recruiting visits were done at Holy Cross HS. Derrick went on to play in the NBA, was not without his share of problems himself, and is really well liked in Columbia Missouri as well as by his peers in Queens at Holy Cross. Maybe he is the type of kid that Norm would have passed on, but I honestly seriously doubt that.

So Norm's kids went to classes and got their degrees. To paraphrase Chris Rock, "Well, big deal. That's what you are supposed to do in college!" However, college coaches making More than $500K per year are supposed to win, not just recruit kids who get diplomas.

I guess anyone on here who wants to thank Norm can do so, but those thinking his tenure almost reduced our program to rubble can do so also.

 

[newsman13]

Thanks, Beast. Now THAT'S an outstanding post!!

 

[Jack Williams]

Au contraire. I did not call this young group anything but fine young men representative of our University and potentially among the best teams we have ever had. I challenged the nay-sayers about Coach Roberts. How can they justify with logic how these fine young men ansd theit accomplished coaching staff won only 30 games in the LAST TWO YEARS whereas Coach Roberts and his young men won 35 games in his last two coaching years. How come they don't call the present team bums but insist on flailing a guy who produced a record better than theirs in his last two years. It is not about the kids or the coach. It's not about the last two games. It's about comparative records in both teams last TWO YEARS..
I love Lavin and his players, especially Harrison but all of them are great. So were the kids and coach before them. Everyone.s argument about Roberts falls apart and becomes name calling when you compare records for the last two years.

Maybe is Roberts had cancer I'd feel compelled to compare his last year years with Lavin's previous 2. if you remember, the wheels fell off that team after Nurideen Lindsay quit after 9 games, and Malik Stith quit over playing time - Lavin was too weakened by chemo to coach even though he tried very early. In fact, Malik Stith was the only carry over from NR's regime, and NR was playing him at point backing up Boothe his last season, while Hardy needed minutes.

Look truth be told, I was one of a handful of guys here who was rooting hard for Roberts to succeed at the end, when many reasoned it would be better if he lost and failed so the experiment would be over. There were guys wearing bags on their heads during games, and I said it was disrespectful.

Roberts may be a nice guy to have around a team, and help out on the recruiting end. Billy Donovan added him for a year - I don't know what Donovan thought of him and if their parting was mutual or one sided.

I'd not calling your posts disgraceful or wondering if we went to the same school. I am saying your loyalty to Roberts is misplaced. There were posters during Roberts last season that were egging people on, saying they knew BOT members and Roberts was staying a long time. To stir the pot by calling Roberts success here as something more important than winning is just wrong. Lots of inept nice guys who come to work on time every day, are congenial, and who work until quitting time get fired because they aren't up to the task - and that's what happened to Norm.

Do you really think it is disgraceful that anyone differs with your opinion? What I find distasteful is that your proclamation of what a fine job you feel Norm Roberts did here puts you on some sort of higher moral ground. I think being objective is a virtue, and while I can objectively say that winning with integrity is also a virtue, in athletics having integrity without winning is simply not enough.

If you recall Mike Jarvis' final weeks here, one of the straws that broke the camel's back was his declaration was that he couldn't care less about winning, that he was a teacher, and he was teaching young men. That comment was perceived as arrogance, combined with his earlier proclamations that he wasn't going to deal with the sleazy AAU coaches who bartered favors, jobs, and money for the rights to their players. It's funny how Jarvis is universally scorned for the results of those two positions, along with what happened after he was fired. For the record, the money slipped to players under the table to help with living expenses has been happening in "clean" programs since the first days of poor kids stepping foot on college campuses. He wasn't the first, won't be the last, and may not even have been in the minority.

The notion that Roberts recruited really good kids and that being admirable is also a load of garbage. If colleges start to restrict recruiting to only kids of the highest moral fiber who aren't rough around the edges, don't come from places where many of us would be afraid to walk. I'm reminded of a kid on my daughter's AAU team who needed rides to games. She lived in a project, and one of her teammates would have her Mom drive to pick the kid up. The teammate, a pretty tough kid herself, would not dare to step foot into the building where the kid lived.

I'm reminded that one of the better players to come out of NYC over the past 30 years, Derrick Chievous, had a home life so rough that all of his recruiting visits were done at Holy Cross HS. Derrick went on to play in the NBA, was not without his share of problems himself, and is really well liked in Columbia Missouri as well as by his peers in Queens at Holy Cross. Maybe he is the type of kid that Norm would have passed on, but I honestly seriously doubt that.

So Norm's kids went to classes and got their degrees. To paraphrase Chris Rock, "Well, big deal. That's what you are supposed to do in college!" However, college coaches making More than $500K per year are supposed to win, not just recruit kids who get diplomas.

I guess anyone on here who wants to thank Norm can do so, but those thinking his tenure almost reduced our program to rubble can do so also.

I'm a much younger fan and was barely around for the Roberts era, so I can't have much of an opinion. But there was a Jarvis thread started a few days ago and people were talking about what Jarvis did and failed to do and how annoying he was. Somebody posted something like "we are really crying over spilled milk here" that's whats going on here right now. Bottom line is Lavin has not made it to the NCAA tournament with his players yet, so I'm focused on rooting for this team so he can finally do so. Let's just focus on THIS season. You can say what you want about Norm, but that's in the past. It doesn't matter anymore. What matters is right now, and 8:30 tonight against Bucknell.

 

[Ray Morgan]

Au contraire. I did not call this young group anything but fine young men representative of our University and potentially among the best teams we have ever had. I challenged the nay-sayers about Coach Roberts. How can they justify with logic how these fine young men ansd theit accomplished coaching staff won only 30 games in the LAST TWO YEARS whereas Coach Roberts and his young men won 35 games in his last two coaching years. How come they don't call the present team bums but insist on flailing a guy who produced a record better than theirs in his last two years. It is not about the kids or the coach. It's not about the last two games. It's about comparative records in both teams last TWO YEARS..
I love Lavin and his players, especially Harrison but all of them are great. So were the kids and coach before them. Everyone.s argument about Roberts falls apart and becomes name calling when you compare records for the last two years.

Maybe is Roberts had cancer I'd feel compelled to compare his last year years with Lavin's previous 2. if you remember, the wheels fell off that team after Nurideen Lindsay quit after 9 games, and Malik Stith quit over playing time - Lavin was too weakened by chemo to coach even though he tried very early. In fact, Malik Stith was the only carry over from NR's regime, and NR was playing him at point backing up Boothe his last season, while Hardy needed minutes.

Look truth be told, I was one of a handful of guys here who was rooting hard for Roberts to succeed at the end, when many reasoned it would be better if he lost and failed so the experiment would be over. There were guys wearing bags on their heads during games, and I said it was disrespectful.

Roberts may be a nice guy to have around a team, and help out on the recruiting end. Billy Donovan added him for a year - I don't know what Donovan thought of him and if their parting was mutual or one sided.

I'd not calling your posts disgraceful or wondering if we went to the same school. I am saying your loyalty to Roberts is misplaced. There were posters during Roberts last season that were egging people on, saying they knew BOT members and Roberts was staying a long time. To stir the pot by calling Roberts success here as something more important than winning is just wrong. Lots of inept nice guys who come to work on time every day, are congenial, and who work until quitting time get fired because they aren't up to the task - and that's what happened to Norm.

Do you really think it is disgraceful that anyone differs with your opinion? What I find distasteful is that your proclamation of what a fine job you feel Norm Roberts did here puts you on some sort of higher moral ground. I think being objective is a virtue, and while I can objectively say that winning with integrity is also a virtue, in athletics having integrity without winning is simply not enough.

If you recall Mike Jarvis' final weeks here, one of the straws that broke the camel's back was his declaration was that he couldn't care less about winning, that he was a teacher, and he was teaching young men. That comment was perceived as arrogance, combined with his earlier proclamations that he wasn't going to deal with the sleazy AAU coaches who bartered favors, jobs, and money for the rights to their players. It's funny how Jarvis is universally scorned for the results of those two positions, along with what happened after he was fired. For the record, the money slipped to players under the table to help with living expenses has been happening in "clean" programs since the first days of poor kids stepping foot on college campuses. He wasn't the first, won't be the last, and may not even have been in the minority.

The notion that Roberts recruited really good kids and that being admirable is also a load of garbage. If colleges start to restrict recruiting to only kids of the highest moral fiber who aren't rough around the edges, don't come from places where many of us would be afraid to walk. I'm reminded of a kid on my daughter's AAU team who needed rides to games. She lived in a project, and one of her teammates would have her Mom drive to pick the kid up. The teammate, a pretty tough kid herself, would not dare to step foot into the building where the kid lived.

I'm reminded that one of the better players to come out of NYC over the past 30 years, Derrick Chievous, had a home life so rough that all of his recruiting visits were done at Holy Cross HS. Derrick went on to play in the NBA, was not without his share of problems himself, and is really well liked in Columbia Missouri as well as by his peers in Queens at Holy Cross. Maybe he is the type of kid that Norm would have passed on, but I honestly seriously doubt that.

So Norm's kids went to classes and got their degrees. To paraphrase Chris Rock, "Well, big deal. That's what you are supposed to do in college!" However, college coaches making More than $500K per year are supposed to win, not just recruit kids who get diplomas.

I guess anyone on here who wants to thank Norm can do so, but those thinking his tenure almost reduced our program to rubble can do so also.

I'm a much younger fan and was barely around for the Roberts era, so I can't have much of an opinion. But there was a Jarvis thread started a few days ago and people were talking about what Jarvis did and failed to do and how annoying he was. Somebody posted something like "we are really crying over spilled milk here" that's whats going on here right now. Bottom line is Lavin has not made it to the NCAA tournament with his players yet, so I'm focused on rooting for this team so he can finally do so. Let's just focus on THIS season. You can say what you want about Norm, but that's in the past. It doesn't matter anymore. What matters is right now, and 8:30 tonight against Bucknell.

This young Williams fella has a point. Norm is gone. And there's nothing we could do about it. There 's plenty of season left to blame the current coach when the players screw up.

 

[beast of the east]

Au contraire. I did not call this young group anything but fine young men representative of our University and potentially among the best teams we have ever had. I challenged the nay-sayers about Coach Roberts. How can they justify with logic how these fine young men ansd theit accomplished coaching staff won only 30 games in the LAST TWO YEARS whereas Coach Roberts and his young men won 35 games in his last two coaching years. How come they don't call the present team bums but insist on flailing a guy who produced a record better than theirs in his last two years. It is not about the kids or the coach. It's not about the last two games. It's about comparative records in both teams last TWO YEARS..
I love Lavin and his players, especially Harrison but all of them are great. So were the kids and coach before them. Everyone.s argument about Roberts falls apart and becomes name calling when you compare records for the last two years.

Maybe is Roberts had cancer I'd feel compelled to compare his last year years with Lavin's previous 2. if you remember, the wheels fell off that team after Nurideen Lindsay quit after 9 games, and Malik Stith quit over playing time - Lavin was too weakened by chemo to coach even though he tried very early. In fact, Malik Stith was the only carry over from NR's regime, and NR was playing him at point backing up Boothe his last season, while Hardy needed minutes.

Look truth be told, I was one of a handful of guys here who was rooting hard for Roberts to succeed at the end, when many reasoned it would be better if he lost and failed so the experiment would be over. There were guys wearing bags on their heads during games, and I said it was disrespectful.

Roberts may be a nice guy to have around a team, and help out on the recruiting end. Billy Donovan added him for a year - I don't know what Donovan thought of him and if their parting was mutual or one sided.

I'd not calling your posts disgraceful or wondering if we went to the same school. I am saying your loyalty to Roberts is misplaced. There were posters during Roberts last season that were egging people on, saying they knew BOT members and Roberts was staying a long time. To stir the pot by calling Roberts success here as something more important than winning is just wrong. Lots of inept nice guys who come to work on time every day, are congenial, and who work until quitting time get fired because they aren't up to the task - and that's what happened to Norm.

Do you really think it is disgraceful that anyone differs with your opinion? What I find distasteful is that your proclamation of what a fine job you feel Norm Roberts did here puts you on some sort of higher moral ground. I think being objective is a virtue, and while I can objectively say that winning with integrity is also a virtue, in athletics having integrity without winning is simply not enough.

If you recall Mike Jarvis' final weeks here, one of the straws that broke the camel's back was his declaration was that he couldn't care less about winning, that he was a teacher, and he was teaching young men. That comment was perceived as arrogance, combined with his earlier proclamations that he wasn't going to deal with the sleazy AAU coaches who bartered favors, jobs, and money for the rights to their players. It's funny how Jarvis is universally scorned for the results of those two positions, along with what happened after he was fired. For the record, the money slipped to players under the table to help with living expenses has been happening in "clean" programs since the first days of poor kids stepping foot on college campuses. He wasn't the first, won't be the last, and may not even have been in the minority.

The notion that Roberts recruited really good kids and that being admirable is also a load of garbage. If colleges start to restrict recruiting to only kids of the highest moral fiber who aren't rough around the edges, don't come from places where many of us would be afraid to walk. I'm reminded of a kid on my daughter's AAU team who needed rides to games. She lived in a project, and one of her teammates would have her Mom drive to pick the kid up. The teammate, a pretty tough kid herself, would not dare to step foot into the building where the kid lived.

I'm reminded that one of the better players to come out of NYC over the past 30 years, Derrick Chievous, had a home life so rough that all of his recruiting visits were done at Holy Cross HS. Derrick went on to play in the NBA, was not without his share of problems himself, and is really well liked in Columbia Missouri as well as by his peers in Queens at Holy Cross. Maybe he is the type of kid that Norm would have passed on, but I honestly seriously doubt that.

So Norm's kids went to classes and got their degrees. To paraphrase Chris Rock, "Well, big deal. That's what you are supposed to do in college!" However, college coaches making More than $500K per year are supposed to win, not just recruit kids who get diplomas.

I guess anyone on here who wants to thank Norm can do so, but those thinking his tenure almost reduced our program to rubble can do so also.

I'm a much younger fan and was barely around for the Roberts era, so I can't have much of an opinion. But there was a Jarvis thread started a few days ago and people were talking about what Jarvis did and failed to do and how annoying he was. Somebody posted something like "we are really crying over spilled milk here" that's whats going on here right now. Bottom line is Lavin has not made it to the NCAA tournament with his players yet, so I'm focused on rooting for this team so he can finally do so. Let's just focus on THIS season. You can say what you want about Norm, but that's in the past. It doesn't matter anymore. What matters is right now, and 8:30 tonight against Bucknell.

This young Williams fella has a point. Norm is gone. And there's nothing we could do about it. There 's plenty of season left to blame the current coach when the players screw up.

Ray, I try really hard not to bring up Norm out of the blue to bash him, and if I do that I'd totally agree. But I won't sit back and allow others to praise his leadership and restoration of our program, because frankly we'd become a laughingstock of the Big East with coaches who formerly would fear us in recruiting and on the court saying such nice things about Norm's ability while they picked our pockets of local kids and whipped us on the court. Thank God for Mike Repole and other big donors who convinced FH that they would finance a big name coach who could actually win.

 

[fun]

Look truth be told, I was one of a handful of guys here who was rooting hard for Roberts to succeed at the end,.

So to recap. You hate Norm, who you consider an incompetent, a buffoon and a loser. Any credit that other posters might give him - for his graduation rate, for his character, for the character of the kids he recruited, for his work ethic, or for the professional success of his players or assistant coaches - you seek to debunk, in paragraph after florid paragraph. Even in a comparison between Norm and the repulsive Mike Jarvis, Norm comes in distant second.

But you hasten to add, as proof of your bona fides and objectivity, you were really really really pulling for him to succeed, right up until the second he got fired. Well, I for one don't believe you. I think you're lying, as is your wont. But even if you're not, and you are, the question remains: why were you pulling for him to succeed if he was such a morally reprehensible incompetent POS loser.

That's rhetorical BTW. Everyone knows the truth of it.

 

[TX Redman]

To summarize without being mean spirited:

Lavin > Norm > Jarvis < Fran > Mahoney < Looey < Lapchick

In current news, we have a game tonight vs. Bucknell and if we don't shut down Cameron Ayers, there will be some serious keyboard action on here tomorrow.

 

[Ray Morgan]

To summarize without being mean spirited:

Lavin > Norm > Jarvis < Fran > Mahoney < Looey < Lapchick

In current news, we have a game tonight vs. Bucknell and if we don't shut down Cameron Ayers, there will be some serious keyboard action on here tomorrow.

The sad part is that the 2 highest on the list left here about 50 and 30 years ago. In terms of coaching record, Norm is a distant last, except for the interim coach after Jarvis was fired. I met Norm. Nice guy. I met Looie. Nice guy. I saw Jarvis once. Don't know if he was a nice guy or not, as he had his face buried in the Daily Racing Form. Also met Nate Archibald. Now he was a real POS.