SJU Fan Tradition Continues-Blame The Coach

The posters are primarily divided into several camps:
1.There is an abundance of talent that is under-performing due to the coach's inadequacies.
2.The talent is there, but more time is needed for them to gel.
I'm of the opinion that Lavin, while no genius, is adequate enough. I think many posters believe, incorrectly, that the raw athleticism of many of our players should translate into winning basketball. I see that great athleticism, but also see the same big holes in their skill sets, and in their fundamentals, that opposing coaches see. Ball fake, drive and kick to the open shooter. That works against us, game in, game out. Hit the boards, as we underperform off the glass, despite all the length and hops. Be patient on offense and we will commit a silly foul. Pack it in on defense, pay some extra attention to Harrison, and let the others beat you. Especially if they take a long two. With time, Sanchez and Jordan will make this team look formidable. They are the skill guys. Hope that Hooper occasionally can keep defenses honest. Convince Harrison to stick to what he does best- a mid- range-and-in game that draws fouls and results in shots in his wheelhouse. Run the offense through Sanchez and Jordan-the only 2 players we have that seem to understand the team concept that is a requisite for winning basketball.
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Isn't Lavin's job to help players improve their fundamentals? If Lavin can't do this, why not bring in players who are already fundamentally sound, instead of bringing in just athletic players? If Lavin isn't good at coaching players who are fundamentally challenged, why does he not recruit accordingly and get players who know the fundamentals well enough. Listen, I don't want to put Lavin on the hot seat yet, but if this season ends and we don't make the NCAAs, it's time to put him into question. If lavins best season was with the players Norm recruited, we obviously have a problem. Let's see how this season goes. Cut Lavin slack his first season with the players he recruited because of cancer, and last year who knows maybe we were going to the tournament if Harrison was never suspended. No excuses this year though, results are needed.
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Why can't he bring in players that are fundamentally sound? Because everyone wants those players. And the same schools get them year after year. Lavin did great getting who we got considering what happened during the Jarvis and Norm years. Everyone seems to think that players are a clean slate, just in need of coaching. Some players are smarter than others, more coachable, less selfish, more skilled. Lavin got guys that top division 1 schools wanted. Just he got a lot of similar players with similar weaknesses. They will get better. It will just take longer for them than the players who entered college with more complete games.
 
I think in practice the game plan is run, run, run. That is clear during games. The problem in the system is Lavin needs our guys prepared for when teams slow it down. We looked shell shocked when Wisconsin took 25 ticks off the shot clock, passing it around the perimeter until an open 3 is found. Lavin needs to get these kids to a point where they can not just hang in, but succeed when the game is slower. We are not going to have the luxury of speeding every game up, ESPECIALLY with the new hand check rules.
 
I'm sweating Wagner a little bit. They are a talented team and local teams always want give St. John's their best shot. I'm not complaining though. Losing to Wagner this year would not be a worse loss than UNC-Asheville last year considering it was a year after they lost Matt Dickey and JP Primm and as I mentioned earlier, we were still in a position to make a tournament push before Harrison's suspension even with those few hiccups.
 
The posters are primarily divided into several camps:
1.There is an abundance of talent that is under-performing due to the coach's inadequacies.
2.The talent is there, but more time is needed for them to gel.
I'm of the opinion that Lavin, while no genius, is adequate enough. I think many posters believe, incorrectly, that the raw athleticism of many of our players should translate into winning basketball. I see that great athleticism, but also see the same big holes in their skill sets, and in their fundamentals, that opposing coaches see. Ball fake, drive and kick to the open shooter. That works against us, game in, game out. Hit the boards, as we underperform off the glass, despite all the length and hops. Be patient on offense and we will commit a silly foul. Pack it in on defense, pay some extra attention to Harrison, and let the others beat you. Especially if they take a long two. With time, Sanchez and Jordan will make this team look formidable. They are the skill guys. Hope that Hooper occasionally can keep defenses honest. Convince Harrison to stick to what he does best- a mid- range-and-in game that draws fouls and results in shots in his wheelhouse. Run the offense through Sanchez and Jordan-the only 2 players we have that seem to understand the team concept that is a requisite for winning basketball.
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Isn't Lavin's job to help players improve their fundamentals? If Lavin can't do this, why not bring in players who are already fundamentally sound, instead of bringing in just athletic players? If Lavin isn't good at coaching players who are fundamentally challenged, why does he not recruit accordingly and get players who know the fundamentals well enough. Listen, I don't want to put Lavin on the hot seat yet, but if this season ends and we don't make the NCAAs, it's time to put him into question. If lavins best season was with the players Norm recruited, we obviously have a problem. Let's see how this season goes. Cut Lavin slack his first season with the players he recruited because of cancer, and last year who knows maybe we were going to the tournament if Harrison was never suspended. No excuses this year though, results are needed.
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Why can't he bring in players that are fundamentally sound? Because everyone wants those players. And the same schools get them year after year. Lavin did great getting who we got considering what happened during the Jarvis and Norm years. Everyone seems to think that players are a clean slate, just in need of coaching. Some players are smarter than others, more coachable, less selfish, more skilled. Lavin got guys that top division 1 schools wanted. Just he got a lot of similar players with similar weaknesses. They will get better. It will just take longer for them than the players who entered college with more complete games.
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Well than is he as good at recruiting as everyone thinks. If Lavin can't get players solely because "everyone wants them" is he that amazing at recruiting?
 
do you think kentucky, louisville, duke or michigan state would be sweating wagner and bucknell?

some of us hoped lavin would have taken us to a higher level than even back in the looie years. i'm sure you remember the high level of mediocrity we attained back then.

as far as lawman's quote: "Let's see what actually happens, measured by more than just Ws and Ls."...W's and L's are what it's about. no one complained that norm's players weren't good citizens.
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Once again, who's sweating those teams? Please tell me.... Answer that question. I'm not sweating those teams.

Is it because you're sweating those teams, so you can complain? If so, then you should be frustrated at yourself.
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Having attended the San Francisco State game and watching the Wisconsin game, I am a little nervous that Wagner will keep it close. I really think the team needs an easy win to build their confidence. I can't even think about the Bucknell game until after we get an easy win. If the win isn't easy, I will have concerns about the Bucknell game.

I bought tickets to the Barclay's finals for my brother and brother in law who are casual fans and I will be embarrassed if they are not in the championship game.
 
do you think kentucky, louisville, duke or michigan state would be sweating wagner and bucknell?

some of us hoped lavin would have taken us to a higher level than even back in the looie years. i'm sure you remember the high level of mediocrity we attained back then.

as far as lawman's quote: "Let's see what actually happens, measured by more than just Ws and Ls."...W's and L's are what it's about. no one complained that norm's players weren't good citizens.
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Once again, who's sweating those teams? Please tell me.... Answer that question. I'm not sweating those teams.

Is it because you're sweating those teams, so you can complain? If so, then you should be frustrated at yourself.
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Having attended the San Francisco State game and watching the Wisconsin game, I am a little nervous that Wagner will keep it close. I really think the team needs an easy win to build their confidence. I can't even think about the Bucknell game until after we get an easy win. If the win isn't easy, I will have concerns about the Bucknell game.
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Okay.... If some fans are sweating those games, then that has to do with the fan(s) own personal feelings.

But it seemed like he was placing his own personal feelings onto the entire fan base, team, and coaching staff.

Just say, 'Personally, I'm worried about those games,' instead of saying, it's frustrating that we're sweating out games versus Wagner and Bucknell. I don't know who's "we're."
 
The posters are primarily divided into several camps:
1.There is an abundance of talent that is under-performing due to the coach's inadequacies.
2.The talent is there, but more time is needed for them to gel.
I'm of the opinion that Lavin, while no genius, is adequate enough. I think many posters believe, incorrectly, that the raw athleticism of many of our players should translate into winning basketball. I see that great athleticism, but also see the same big holes in their skill sets, and in their fundamentals, that opposing coaches see. Ball fake, drive and kick to the open shooter. That works against us, game in, game out. Hit the boards, as we underperform off the glass, despite all the length and hops. Be patient on offense and we will commit a silly foul. Pack it in on defense, pay some extra attention to Harrison, and let the others beat you. Especially if they take a long two. With time, Sanchez and Jordan will make this team look formidable. They are the skill guys. Hope that Hooper occasionally can keep defenses honest. Convince Harrison to stick to what he does best- a mid- range-and-in game that draws fouls and results in shots in his wheelhouse. Run the offense through Sanchez and Jordan-the only 2 players we have that seem to understand the team concept that is a requisite for winning basketball.
Click to expand...


Isn't Lavin's job to help players improve their fundamentals? If Lavin can't do this, why not bring in players who are already fundamentally sound, instead of bringing in just athletic players? If Lavin isn't good at coaching players who are fundamentally challenged, why does he not recruit accordingly and get players who know the fundamentals well enough. Listen, I don't want to put Lavin on the hot seat yet, but if this season ends and we don't make the NCAAs, it's time to put him into question. If lavins best season was with the players Norm recruited, we obviously have a problem. Let's see how this season goes. Cut Lavin slack his first season with the players he recruited because of cancer, and last year who knows maybe we were going to the tournament if Harrison was never suspended. No excuses this year though, results are needed.
Click to expand...
Why can't he bring in players that are fundamentally sound? Because everyone wants those players. And the same schools get them year after year. Lavin did great getting who we got considering what happened during the Jarvis and Norm years. Everyone seems to think that players are a clean slate, just in need of coaching. Some players are smarter than others, more coachable, less selfish, more skilled. Lavin got guys that top division 1 schools wanted. Just he got a lot of similar players with similar weaknesses. They will get better. It will just take longer for them than the players who entered college with more complete games.
Click to expand...

Well than is he as good at recruiting as everyone thinks. If Lavin can't get players solely because "everyone wants them" is he that amazing at recruiting?
Click to expand...

Lavin's job is to win games. How he choses to do that and with whom is his business. That's why they keep score He is well paid to produce results in keeping with the expectations of the school and paying customers. There are always going to be bumps in the road but that's the case with all programs. I think this is a make or break year for the staff. Recruiting is hard to analyze but so far there's not much to cheer about in that dept. I'm heading into the game expecting a "W." I'd also like to see some sort of cohesive effort from the squad. More comments to follow after the game.
 
If we lose tonight, by all means let's start worrying. But as of right now, the sky is not falling. Losing to a Wagner team that lost to penn state by double digits, that's where we should start worrying about the future of our season. But right now, a loss to a better Wisconsin team, I just don't see the travesty in that. We also outplayed them in the second half, it's not like this Wisconsin team dominated us. That game just proved we aren't ready to beat a top 20 team yet. Maybe we will be ready by the time we play Cuse. I don't know, no one knows. Point is you look at last year and how many problems we had, no scorers, stagnant offense, free throws (which is still a problem for all we know). Now we just have to work on perimeter defense. Our offense looked good for 25 minutes of the Wisconsin game, and Wisconsin plays great defense. I know our fan base likes to worry more than any other fan base, but please not after one game against a top 20 team. Not yet.
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I wouldn't say dominated. I was thinking more like toyed with. Our guys did give up 50 points and a four point deficit was back to ten in the blink of an eye. If the kids don't feel they were beat up bad, they should.
 
Postel, Andrew... Wagner is not Wisconsin. I understand you may be apprehensive because our team hasn't look cohesive for an entire 40 minutes yet.
But, this is not the opponent to worry about. We matchup very very well with Wagner. They don't shoot 3's well, and they don't have the size to hurt us down low.
Wisconsin and teams like them pose a problem because they shoot well from the outside and have a post-game.
That's not Wagner. They may win their conference and be an alright team, but we just matchup very well with them. It shouldn't be close.
 
I'm sweating Wagner a little bit. They are a talented team and local teams always want give St. John's their best shot. I'm not complaining though. Losing to Wagner this year would not be a worse loss than UNC-Asheville last year considering it was a year after they lost Matt Dickey and JP Primm and as I mentioned earlier, we were still in a position to make a tournament push before Harrison's suspension even with those few hiccups.
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Wagner is a respectable team but it would absolutely be a worse loss because this is a complete team with a lot of experience unlike last year's "youngest team in the nation" who should have learned something from last year's early season debacles. If our guys don't come out fired up and motivated I'd be surprised. They should have a chip on their shoulder and something to prove.

The problem with the schedule moving forward is more for the fans than for the team. No big names until Syracuse so the normal b&m crowd will not be satisfied even if we play perfect ball against what are considered inferior opponents. Even if we rocked Syracuse of course they still would find reason to complain but the rest of us have to endure it until we get both solid play beating who we should beat and some big wins.
 
I'm sweating Wagner a little bit. They are a talented team and local teams always want give St. John's their best shot. I'm not complaining though. Losing to Wagner this year would not be a worse loss than UNC-Asheville last year considering it was a year after they lost Matt Dickey and JP Primm and as I mentioned earlier, we were still in a position to make a tournament push before Harrison's suspension even with those few hiccups.
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Wagner is a respectable team but it would absolutely be a worse loss because this is a complete team with a lot of experience unlike last year's "youngest team in the nation" who should have learned something from last year's early season debacles. If our guys don't come out fired up and motivated I'd be surprised. They should have a chip on their shoulder and something to prove.

The problem with the schedule moving forward is more for the fans than for the team. No big names until Syracuse so the normal b&m crowd will not be satisfied even if we play perfect ball against what are considered inferior opponents. Even if we rocked Syracuse of course they still would find reason to complain but the rest of us have to endure it until we get both solid play beating who we should beat and some big wins.
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Do you really feel if we ROCKED Syracuse any of our fans would complain? Maybe if they were missing 10 of their scholarship players. :unsure:
 
Do you really feel if we ROCKED Syracuse any of our fans would complain? Maybe if they were missing 10 of their scholarship players. :unsure:
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absolutely
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I think the same thing, Paul. Someone would find a reason to complain..... 'We just rocked Syracuse, but that was an aberration, and I don't see the Johnnies playing that way once the Big East season starts.'

'It looked more like Syracuse didn't play well, than us beating them.'
 
I just can`t stop thinking about being down 18 in the first 15minutes and being pumped about the game since first finding out about it. That`s what really bothers me still about that game.
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I can understand your frustration but if it WAS going to happen that was the exact situation where it was going to happen, first game, on the road, against a very talented and fundamentally sound team. I was just disappointed. I'd be concerned if it happened if February at Georgetown.
 
I just can`t stop thinking about being down 18 in the first 15minutes and being pumped about the game since first finding out about it. That`s what really bothers me still about that game.
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I can understand your frustration but if it WAS going to happen that was the exact situation where it was going to happen, first game, on the road, against a very talented and fundamentally sound team. I was just disappointed. I'd be concerned if it happened if February at Georgetown.
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STJ actually plays Xavier and Gtown right off the bat on the road, first two conference games-- Dec 31 , and Jan 4.
 
I just can`t stop thinking about being down 18 in the first 15minutes and being pumped about the game since first finding out about it. That`s what really bothers me still about that game.
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I can understand your frustration but if it WAS going to happen that was the exact situation where it was going to happen, first game, on the road, against a very talented and fundamentally sound team. I was just disappointed. I'd be concerned if it happened if February at Georgetown.
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STJ actually plays Xavier and Gtown right off the bat on the road, first two conference games-- Dec 31 , and Jan 4.
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Sorry, I was just throwing out a hypothetical. Thanks though for the update.
 
Our boards are flatout embarassing lately. Judge Coach at the end of this season. He's played one game against a top 20 team that has everything in order, roles defined, and huge expectations. Sanchez was playing is first D-1 game...Jordan as well. Jordan showed flashes of brilliance and, maybe more importantly, a good pace to his game. I was really impressed. Sanchez, in his limited minutes due to the quick fouls, flashed that do-everything ability off the rebound he pushed for an easy layup. That right there will be our game.

He's brought more talent to this program in the last three years than we've seen in the previous decade-and-a-half combined. The Wisconsin game was nothing more than an ill-timed bad matchup. I was disappointed to lose the game (but won my parlay with Wisc and the over), but it is a great thing to face a team that does everything well that we have weaknesses going against.

The next month will allow this team to gel, get a relatively consistent rotation down, and have some roles defined.
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Thats like catching a home run hit by the other team. Throw it back. Give that money to charity ;)
 
as far as lawman's quote: "Let's see what actually happens, measured by more than just Ws and Ls."...W's and L's are what it's about. no one complained that norm's players weren't good citizens.
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Newsie, you know exactly what I meant. Yes, he needs to produce wins. The question is, if their players better than ours, how much confidence do you have in our staff to gameplan or manage the game to create a win? Conversely, even in games where our players are better than theirs, how much confidence do you have in our staff to win the game?

Seems to me that the consensus answer to both questions by a majority of the posters is "not much." I'm in that camp, and I'm pretty sure you are too.

It also seems to me that the big plan is to send guys to the NBA so that you can recruit more NBA-caliber players so that ultimately your guys will be better than the other team's guys almost every game. That way you can win on talent without actually having to worry about coaching or strategy too much.

Nobody has a problem with a plan to recruit the maximum amount of talent (though it could be argued that planning around sending a guy to the NBA can come at the expense of building a program). But it would be nice to see implementation, development and execution of a consistent basketball structure while we're racking up wins based on talent.

There's no sense painting the house until you've laid the foundation.
 
Do you really feel if we ROCKED Syracuse any of our fans would complain? Maybe if they were missing 10 of their scholarship players. :unsure:
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absolutely
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I have been to way too many losses to Syracuse at MSG to even think about you being serious.
Beating a top 10 team named Syracuse from the former Big East and now ACC would be THE BIGGEST win of the year.
I would be estatic over a 1 point win, in overtime.
I think fans would have every right to complain if losses are to a Wagner or Bucknell.
 
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