SJU Fan Tradition Continues-Blame The Coach

[monte]

Realistically, anything short of a NCAA bid and a victory or two in the tournament and the seat gets hot....

I'm a Lavin fan, but this is the year that we need to see results on the court. It's his 3rd real, full season on the bench and had ample opportunity to get his players in here.. FTR- I think he has brought in a level of talent, no one could have predicted 4 years ago... Now we need to see this translate on the court..

It's all on the defensive end after watching the Wisco game.. rebounding and defense. I think the offense will be fine once Jordan gets his act together...which should be very soon.

I was not a fan of Lavin as a game coach while he was at UCLA(please spare me his record and NCAA appearances) and am still not a fan of him as a game coach. Having said that if we lose every game from now to the end of the year I don't think see the seat getting more than lukewarm. Unless he decides to leave, or unless there's another scandel, he aint going anywhere IMO.

Just curious Monte but why do you say "spare me his record & NCAA appearances"? Other than victories and NCAA appearances, what else is a head coach to be judged by? Are you saying he shouldn't get credit for the wins and tourney appearances but he should get credit for the losses? Just trying to figure out why you want to dismiss the one thing that coaches are paid to do, which is to win games.

I only say "spare me...." since many are quick to state his record and sweet sixteen appearance without mentioning the fact that he had a well known and well deserved reputation as a poor game coach. His highly talented UCLA teams were known for being extremely undisciplined and inconsistent. As now, he was an excellent recruiter who's teams oftentimes performed below their talent level. His first season here, Lavin had a senior laden team lead by Buckets that jelled. Similar to Mahoney's first year when David Cain stepped up big time and basically won Mahoney COY honors. After that, Mahoney proved to be a less than stellar coach. I like Lavin the personality, and I really like Lavin the recruiter, I still don't like Lavin the game coach. And that includes game plan and preparation. Interesting article from 2010 that I found spot on:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ari-shapiro/dear-st-johns-enjoy-steve_b_521280.html

Monte, Crgreen gave some insight into the author of that article Shapiro and his hatred of Lavin since his ucla days. You find it "spot on" but the article is clearly not written from an unbiased journalist. In addition, yu cite a "well deserved reputation as a poor game coach", yet I bet you can't support the with any sort of numbers. In fact his numbers point to the contrary ie. deep tourney advances and wins over teams higher ranked and more talented than ucla. You're hanging your hat on a lot of hearsay from ucla fans back I the day and throwing it out as proof. Lavin's record doesn't agree with it. I personally don't think Lavin is the best game coach in the world either. I do think this will still be his second tourney team in 4 years, we have plenty of talent to make a run and he'll keep being successful for us as his record indicates he has been for almost all of it.

This is in no way meant as a knock on CR(RIP), but he was hardly unbiased. He was probably Lavin's biggest supporter/defender. Shapiro may have had a bone to pick, but Lavin's reputation was pretty well known not just amongst UCLA fans, but amongst college basketball fans in general. We here have raised many of the same concerns as the UCLA fans did about preparation, game plan, in game adjustments, etc. So its not as though we haven't observed many of those same issues that were raised by the UCLA fans. In any event his UCLA years are in the past and I didn't mean to drudge them up. I love our talent and hope it can be harnessed. I also hope that the 2nd tourny that you're talking about is not the CBI.

 

[monte]

Realistically, anything short of a NCAA bid and a victory or two in the tournament and the seat gets hot....

I'm a Lavin fan, but this is the year that we need to see results on the court. It's his 3rd real, full season on the bench and had ample opportunity to get his players in here.. FTR- I think he has brought in a level of talent, no one could have predicted 4 years ago... Now we need to see this translate on the court..

It's all on the defensive end after watching the Wisco game.. rebounding and defense. I think the offense will be fine once Jordan gets his act together...which should be very soon.

I was not a fan of Lavin as a game coach while he was at UCLA(please spare me his record and NCAA appearances) and am still not a fan of him as a game coach. Having said that if we lose every game from now to the end of the year I don't think see the seat getting more than lukewarm. Unless he decides to leave, or unless there's another scandel, he aint going anywhere IMO.

Just curious Monte but why do you say "spare me his record & NCAA appearances"? Other than victories and NCAA appearances, what else is a head coach to be judged by? Are you saying he shouldn't get credit for the wins and tourney appearances but he should get credit for the losses? Just trying to figure out why you want to dismiss the one thing that coaches are paid to do, which is to win games.

I only say "spare me...." since many are quick to state his record and sweet sixteen appearance without mentioning the fact that he had a well known and well deserved reputation as a poor game coach. His highly talented UCLA teams were known for being extremely undisciplined and inconsistent. As now, he was an excellent recruiter who's teams oftentimes performed below their talent level. His first season here, Lavin had a senior laden team lead by Buckets that jelled. Similar to Mahoney's first year when David Cain stepped up big time and basically won Mahoney COY honors. After that, Mahoney proved to be a less than stellar coach. I like Lavin the personality, and I really like Lavin the recruiter, I still don't like Lavin the game coach. And that includes game plan and preparation. Interesting article from 2010 that I found spot on:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ari-shapiro/dear-st-johns-enjoy-steve_b_521280.html

If Lavin does here what he did at UCLA, a street near the SJU campus will be renamed after him. UCLA has a higher set of standards than we do.

The standard I have set is to see my beloved Redmen win a national championship before my days are up. Just one! A run of sweet sixteens aint gonna do it for me.

 

[Ray Morgan]

Realistically, anything short of a NCAA bid and a victory or two in the tournament and the seat gets hot....

I'm a Lavin fan, but this is the year that we need to see results on the court. It's his 3rd real, full season on the bench and had ample opportunity to get his players in here.. FTR- I think he has brought in a level of talent, no one could have predicted 4 years ago... Now we need to see this translate on the court..

It's all on the defensive end after watching the Wisco game.. rebounding and defense. I think the offense will be fine once Jordan gets his act together...which should be very soon.

I was not a fan of Lavin as a game coach while he was at UCLA(please spare me his record and NCAA appearances) and am still not a fan of him as a game coach. Having said that if we lose every game from now to the end of the year I don't think see the seat getting more than lukewarm. Unless he decides to leave, or unless there's another scandel, he aint going anywhere IMO.

Just curious Monte but why do you say "spare me his record & NCAA appearances"? Other than victories and NCAA appearances, what else is a head coach to be judged by? Are you saying he shouldn't get credit for the wins and tourney appearances but he should get credit for the losses? Just trying to figure out why you want to dismiss the one thing that coaches are paid to do, which is to win games.

I only say "spare me...." since many are quick to state his record and sweet sixteen appearance without mentioning the fact that he had a well known and well deserved reputation as a poor game coach. His highly talented UCLA teams were known for being extremely undisciplined and inconsistent. As now, he was an excellent recruiter who's teams oftentimes performed below their talent level. His first season here, Lavin had a senior laden team lead by Buckets that jelled. Similar to Mahoney's first year when David Cain stepped up big time and basically won Mahoney COY honors. After that, Mahoney proved to be a less than stellar coach. I like Lavin the personality, and I really like Lavin the recruiter, I still don't like Lavin the game coach. And that includes game plan and preparation. Interesting article from 2010 that I found spot on:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ari-shapiro/dear-st-johns-enjoy-steve_b_521280.html

If Lavin does here what he did at UCLA, a street near the SJU campus will be renamed after him. UCLA has a higher set of standards than we do.

The standard I have set is to see my beloved Redmen win a national championship before my days are up. Just one! A run of sweet sixteens aint gonna do it for me.

It's every fan's dream. And it's tough living off the goodwill of Chris Mullin for nearly 30 years. Yes, soon that final four team will be celebrating their 30 year reunion.

 

[SJUISBACK]

Say if for some reason with all this talent we are just an avg team (htf can we just be avg right, but this is just an example.), and we don`t get the the ncaa tourny. There`s no way top ballers would come here to play. If Sampson and Jordan then we`ll be fine next year, but if they both go and we get good recruit but not the type to help right away. If that happened how good would we be the next two years? This year and the next two would be six total and five with his recruit but no ncaa tourny.

That`s around where Norm was. Would we not want Lavin fired if he has the same results as Norm just because he recruits better then Norm, but again the same results. I don`t know but I`d think we`d have to do something.
That`s why I think this season right here is so damn huge that we have to dominate this year.
I know we only played one game and no shame to losing to a ranked team. I just can`t stop thinking about being down 18 in the first 15minutes and being pumped about the game since first finding out about it. That`s what really bothers me still about that game.
Well we should win the next four games. If we could win that Tournament at the Barclays, I`d think Penn St, Ga Tech, and Ole Miss are very beatable or am I wrong on that? Then we should be able to beat Fordham (notice I said should since I don`t take anything thing for granted with this team.
If we want to show we`re big time and we`re ready for the big time then we have to win every game going into the Syracuse, and no morebs excuses. Just win your games.

 

[Amaseinyourface]

Say if for some reason with all this talent we are just an avg team (htf can we just be avg right, but this is just an example.), and we don`t get the the ncaa tourny. There`s no way top ballers would come here to play. If Sampson and Jordan then we`ll be fine next year, but if they both go and we get good recruit but not the type to help right away. If that happened how good would we be the next two years? This year and the next two would be six total and five with his recruit but no ncaa tourny.

That`s around where Norm was. Would we not want Lavin fired if he has the same results as Norm just because he recruits better then Norm, but again the same results. I don`t know but I`d think we`d have to do something.
That`s why I think this season right here is so damn huge that we have to dominate this year.
I know we only played one game and no shame to losing to a ranked team. I just can`t stop thinking about being down 18 in the first 15minutes and being pumped about the game since first finding out about it. That`s what really bothers me still about that game.
Well we should win the next four games. If we could win that Tournament at the Barclays, I`d think Penn St, Ga Tech, and Ole Miss are very beatable or am I wrong on that? Then we should be able to beat Fordham (notice I said should since I don`t take anything thing for granted with this team.
If we want to show we`re big time and we`re ready for the big time then we have to win every game going into the Syracuse, and no morebs excuses. Just win your games.

I had a hard time reading that but did you just fast forward three seasons with us missing the tourny in all 3 of them? It doesn't work like that.

 

[fun]

I'm sure most would agree that senior laden team or not, Norm Roberts doesn't have the 2011 season that Lavin had with that group. For that matter, he probably doesn't make the NIT with last year's group (even if Harrison isn't suspended).

If I understand what you're saying, it's that Steve Lavin is a better head coach than Norm Roberts and probably has been more successful at SJ over the last 4 years than Norm would have been had his contract been extended for 4 more years.

Way to bring the insight.

 

[MJDinkins]

Say if for some reason with all this talent we are just an avg team (htf can we just be avg right, but this is just an example.), and we don`t get the the ncaa tourny. There`s no way top ballers would come here to play. If Sampson and Jordan then we`ll be fine next year, but if they both go and we get good recruit but not the type to help right away. If that happened how good would we be the next two years? This year and the next two would be six total and five with his recruit but no ncaa tourny.

That`s around where Norm was. Would we not want Lavin fired if he has the same results as Norm just because he recruits better then Norm, but again the same results. I don`t know but I`d think we`d have to do something.
That`s why I think this season right here is so damn huge that we have to dominate this year.
I know we only played one game and no shame to losing to a ranked team. I just can`t stop thinking about being down 18 in the first 15minutes and being pumped about the game since first finding out about it. That`s what really bothers me still about that game.
Well we should win the next four games. If we could win that Tournament at the Barclays, I`d think Penn St, Ga Tech, and Ole Miss are very beatable or am I wrong on that? Then we should be able to beat Fordham (notice I said should since I don`t take anything thing for granted with this team.
If we want to show we`re big time and we`re ready for the big time then we have to win every game going into the Syracuse, and no morebs excuses. Just win your games.

I had a hard time reading that but did you just fast forward three seasons with us missing the tourny in all 3 of them? It doesn't work like that.

I also had a hard time reading it. It also sounded like an emotional rant, as he's still sweating last week's game (which, we all know was just the first game of the season).

Maybe, he should temper his enthusiasm, and allow the season to play out.

 

[Jack Williams]

If we lose tonight, by all means let's start worrying. But as of right now, the sky is not falling. Losing to a Wagner team that lost to penn state by double digits, that's where we should start worrying about the future of our season. But right now, a loss to a better Wisconsin team, I just don't see the travesty in that. We also outplayed them in the second half, it's not like this Wisconsin team dominated us. That game just proved we aren't ready to beat a top 20 team yet. Maybe we will be ready by the time we play Cuse. I don't know, no one knows. Point is you look at last year and how many problems we had, no scorers, stagnant offense, free throws (which is still a problem for all we know). Now we just have to work on perimeter defense. Our offense looked good for 25 minutes of the Wisconsin game, and Wisconsin plays great defense. I know our fan base likes to worry more than any other fan base, but please not after one game against a top 20 team. Not yet.

 

[Marillac]

Our boards are flatout embarassing lately. Judge Coach at the end of this season. He's played one game against a top 20 team that has everything in order, roles defined, and huge expectations. Sanchez was playing is first D-1 game...Jordan as well. Jordan showed flashes of brilliance and, maybe more importantly, a good pace to his game. I was really impressed. Sanchez, in his limited minutes due to the quick fouls, flashed that do-everything ability off the rebound he pushed for an easy layup. That right there will be our game.

He's brought more talent to this program in the last three years than we've seen in the previous decade-and-a-half combined. The Wisconsin game was nothing more than an ill-timed bad matchup. I was disappointed to lose the game (but won my parlay with Wisc and the over), but it is a great thing to face a team that does everything well that we have weaknesses going against.

The next month will allow this team to gel, get a relatively consistent rotation down, and have some roles defined.

 

[newsman13]

no one is posting that lavin should be fired.

it's frustrating, however, that we're sweating out wagner and bucknell in year four.

honestly, did anyone think that would be the case when lavin was hired?

 

[lawmanfan]

Lavin isn't going anywhere in the near future, unless it is his choice. He is recruiting well enough, handling the PR well enough and winning enough (or will win enough) to satisfy the school and the casual fan.

There's no question that he can recruit. He gets players that are good enough to win a bunch of games, and maybe even to make a run in the NCAA tournament.

The problem for some is that it is often hard to find evidence that the team is well coached. It shows up in the struggles in the halfcourt offense, in the defensive struggles, and in the lack of certain fundamentals. More subjectively, it could be argued that it shows up in tactics and in substitution patterns, though knowledgeable and reasonable minds might differ on that.

People who in that camp feel that the result of this is that the team will lose some games to inferior talent that is better coached. It will also win a few games against equally talented, better-coached opponents (like the Duke game) because sometimes stuff happens and that's why they play the games. But on balance those who are critical of Coach feel that his coaching skills hold back the talented players he recruits more than they advance them.

Supporters can point to his track record of sending players to the NBA, which speaks for itself. There's no question that sending players to the NBA helps you recruit still more NBA-caliber players, so that it builds the talent level in the program over time. If the ultimate goal is to win simply by out-talenting the other teams, then that's one way to go.

Still, if you're a purist you'd like to see games won consistently by getting your talent to play well in a coherent system that makes sense, to play sound fundamental basketball, and to limit the number of errors.

The Wisconsin game isn't the end of the world. It's the first game, there are a lot of new pieces to integrate, and there are a bunch of games coming up to do it. Hopefully what we'll see is a team that learns to execute in a consistent fashion on both ends of the floor, makes few mistakes, beats the teams it should beat handily, and has well-defined roles for the players.

Let's see what actually happens, measured by more than just Ws and Ls.

 

[MJDinkins]

no one is posting that lavin should be fired.

it's frustrating, however, that we're sweating out wagner and bucknell in year four.

honestly, did anyone think that would be the case when lavin was hired?

Who's sweating those teams? The only one's who really seem to be sweating those teams are the one's who are generally complaining.

Why would it frustrate you that people are sweating out Wagner and Bucknell, unless you're one of the one's worrying about it? I'm not sweating either one.

Not to mention, I believe Bucknell would give many, good teams a run for their money. So, there probably isn't any harm in being in a tough battle with Bucknell.

 

[newsman13]

do you think kentucky, louisville, duke or michigan state would be sweating wagner and bucknell?

some of us hoped lavin would have taken us to a higher level than even back in the looie years. i'm sure you remember the high level of mediocrity we attained back then.

as far as lawman's quote: "Let's see what actually happens, measured by more than just Ws and Ls."...W's and L's are what it's about. no one complained that norm's players weren't good citizens.

 

[ccnobz]

Our boards are flatout embarassing lately. Judge Coach at the end of this season. He's played one game against a top 20 team that has everything in order, roles defined, and huge expectations. Sanchez was playing is first D-1 game...Jordan as well. Jordan showed flashes of brilliance and, maybe more importantly, a good pace to his game. I was really impressed. Sanchez, in his limited minutes due to the quick fouls, flashed that do-everything ability off the rebound he pushed for an easy layup. That right there will be our game.

He's brought more talent to this program in the last three years than we've seen in the previous decade-and-a-half combined. The Wisconsin game was nothing more than an ill-timed bad matchup. I was disappointed to lose the game (but won my parlay with Wisc and the over), but it is a great thing to face a team that does everything well that we have weaknesses going against.

The next month will allow this team to gel, get a relatively consistent rotation down, and have some roles defined.

I can't bet against STJ, but good win. No line listed for game tonight.

 

[MJDinkins]

do you think kentucky, louisville, duke or michigan state would be sweating wagner and bucknell?

some of us hoped lavin would have taken us to a higher level than even back in the looie years. i'm sure you remember the high level of mediocrity we attained back then.

as far as lawman's quote: "Let's see what actually happens, measured by more than just Ws and Ls."...W's and L's are what it's about. no one complained that norm's players weren't good citizens.

Once again, who's sweating those teams? Please tell me.... Answer that question. I'm not sweating those teams.

Is it because you're sweating those teams, so you can complain? If so, then you should be frustrated at yourself.

 

[Ray Morgan]

The posters are primarily divided into several camps:
1.There is an abundance of talent that is under-performing due to the coach's inadequacies.
2.The talent is there, but more time is needed for them to gel.
I'm of the opinion that Lavin, while no genius, is adequate enough. I think many posters believe, incorrectly, that the raw athleticism of many of our players should translate into winning basketball. I see that great athleticism, but also see the same big holes in their skill sets, and in their fundamentals, that opposing coaches see. Ball fake, drive and kick to the open shooter. That works against us, game in, game out. Hit the boards, as we underperform off the glass, despite all the length and hops. Be patient on offense and we will commit a silly foul. Pack it in on defense, pay some extra attention to Harrison, and let the others beat you. Especially if they take a long two. With time, Sanchez and Jordan will make this team look formidable. They are the skill guys. Hope that Hooper occasionally can keep defenses honest. Convince Harrison to stick to what he does best- a mid- range-and-in game that draws fouls and results in shots in his wheelhouse. Run the offense through Sanchez and Jordan-the only 2 players we have that seem to understand the team concept that is a requisite for winning basketball.

 

[NYCRedmen]

I'm sure most would agree that senior laden team or not, Norm Roberts doesn't have the 2011 season that Lavin had with that group. For that matter, he probably doesn't make the NIT with last year's group (even if Harrison isn't suspended).

If I understand what you're saying, it's that Steve Lavin is a better head coach than Norm Roberts and probably has been more successful at SJ over the last 4 years than Norm would have been had his contract been extended for 4 more years.

Way to bring the insight.

That wasn't exactly the point but you can go back & re-read the post, you might get it eventually.

Way to bring reading comprehension.

 

[Jack Williams]

The posters are primarily divided into several camps:
1.There is an abundance of talent that is under-performing due to the coach's inadequacies.
2.The talent is there, but more time is needed for them to gel.
I'm of the opinion that Lavin, while no genius, is adequate enough. I think many posters believe, incorrectly, that the raw athleticism of many of our players should translate into winning basketball. I see that great athleticism, but also see the same big holes in their skill sets, and in their fundamentals, that opposing coaches see. Ball fake, drive and kick to the open shooter. That works against us, game in, game out. Hit the boards, as we underperform off the glass, despite all the length and hops. Be patient on offense and we will commit a silly foul. Pack it in on defense, pay some extra attention to Harrison, and let the others beat you. Especially if they take a long two. With time, Sanchez and Jordan will make this team look formidable. They are the skill guys. Hope that Hooper occasionally can keep defenses honest. Convince Harrison to stick to what he does best- a mid- range-and-in game that draws fouls and results in shots in his wheelhouse. Run the offense through Sanchez and Jordan-the only 2 players we have that seem to understand the team concept that is a requisite for winning basketball.

Isn't Lavin's job to help players improve their fundamentals? If Lavin can't do this, why not bring in players who are already fundamentally sound, instead of bringing in just athletic players? If Lavin isn't good at coaching players who are fundamentally challenged, why does he not recruit accordingly and get players who know the fundamentals well enough. Listen, I don't want to put Lavin on the hot seat yet, but if this season ends and we don't make the NCAAs, it's time to put him into question. If lavins best season was with the players Norm recruited, we obviously have a problem. Let's see how this season goes. Cut Lavin slack his first season with the players he recruited because of cancer, and last year who knows maybe we were going to the tournament if Harrison was never suspended. No excuses this year though, results are needed.

 

[mullin20]

The posters are primarily divided into several camps:
1.There is an abundance of talent that is under-performing due to the coach's inadequacies.
2.The talent is there, but more time is needed for them to gel.
I'm of the opinion that Lavin, while no genius, is adequate enough. I think many posters believe, incorrectly, that the raw athleticism of many of our players should translate into winning basketball. I see that great athleticism, but also see the same big holes in their skill sets, and in their fundamentals, that opposing coaches see. Ball fake, drive and kick to the open shooter. That works against us, game in, game out. Hit the boards, as we underperform off the glass, despite all the length and hops. Be patient on offense and we will commit a silly foul. Pack it in on defense, pay some extra attention to Harrison, and let the others beat you. Especially if they take a long two. With time, Sanchez and Jordan will make this team look formidable. They are the skill guys. Hope that Hooper occasionally can keep defenses honest. Convince Harrison to stick to what he does best- a mid- range-and-in game that draws fouls and results in shots in his wheelhouse. Run the offense through Sanchez and Jordan-the only 2 players we have that seem to understand the team concept that is a requisite for winning basketball.

Isn't Lavin's job to help players improve their fundamentals? If Lavin can't do this, why not bring in players who are already fundamentally sound, instead of bringing in just athletic players? If Lavin isn't good at coaching players who are fundamentally challenged, why does he not recruit accordingly and get players who know the fundamentals well enough. Listen, I don't want to put Lavin on the hot seat yet, but if this season ends and we don't make the NCAAs, it's time to put him into question. If lavins best season was with the players Norm recruited, we obviously have a problem. Let's see how this season goes. Cut Lavin slack his first season with the players he recruited because of cancer, and last year who knows maybe we were going to the tournament if Harrison was never suspended. No excuses this year though, results are needed.

I don't think any reasonable fan has any issue with anything you just said.. At the end of the season, the results will speak for themselves.

 

[rawdognyc]

Holy shite. We are 1 game (against a top 20 team) into the season and it's like we have an 11-18 record. Lavin in his first year back from cancer got us into the second round of the NIT plus we were a bubble team right up until the last couple of weeks for the tourney. Now we have an older team plus a couple of key additions and idiots are acting like we already lost to Wagner, Penn Bucknell etc. What is wrong with people's common sense? Can we wait til we play at least 5 frikkin games before we bitch?