Shamorie Ponds

[quote="Moose" post=315201][quote="we are sju" post=315187][quote="Paultzman" post=315185][quote="we are sju" post=315183][quote="Paultzman" post=315182]Game-time decision, sensing strongly he plays, but we’ll see[/quote]

Well on bright side Heron seemingly playing himself into another year here?[/quote]

Always heard otherwise, but starting to think that is possible.[/quote]

I doubt they thought he would struggle like he has.
Despite couple of the reasons for his struggles that have been brought up still pretty weird considering he didn't have to sit out a year.[/quote]

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/4066250/mustapha-heron

That's struggling?
Sure looks like the %'s are up from previous years?
Maybe one of these days they can run a play for him instead of just hoisting 3's or driving left.[/quote]

The issue is we haven’t ‘seen’ what we ‘expected’ to see.
Our own 5*, once removed, take over games.
Lol.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=315231]Anyone who has seen Heron play, especially in person, can see he is not playing well. Early in the season we believed Ponds and Heron to be options #1 and #1A, and that hasn't been the case. Heron's stats are somewhat bloated by the weak OOC schedule and two 30+ point games.

We really need Heron to be the guy we expected. There will be nights where even a healthy Ponds won't be superman, and Heron can provide efficient offensive production. Against weaker competition other guys can step it up, but if we are to play toe to toe against top 15 competition, we need Heron at his best. He is STILL the most likely guy other than Ponds to count on for 15-20 points in a big game, and if we are to go deep in the BET, or survive the 1st weekend of the NCAA tournament, we will need Heron playing at a level he is capable of.

Still plenty of time for him to put it together. I think he has to begin to trust that when he gives the ball up, he will get it back when open.[/quote]

What Heron was expected exactly?
Did we think he would leave Auburn and come to a lesser team and perform better?
Pretty flawed if that's what people expected.
He's doing exactly what he's done his whole college career.
 
The thing that has surprised me the most about Heron is how little he is able to create his own shot. He's shown flashes, but for the most part I'm seeing the majority of his scoring coming from the flow of offense. That's fine but I was expecting more based on what we knew about him coming in. I never saw him play at Auburn.
 
[quote="Moose" post=315229][quote="Boo Harvey" post=315224]I'm not looking at his stats, but from watching Heron this year, he's been a turnover machine. He recklessly bulls his way to the basket like Ahmed did last year and frequently turns it over. I didn't watch him at Auburn, but I can't believe this is a new development. It's one thing for a good shooter to go cold, but it's another thing for a stud athlete to suddenly forget how to drive the ball to the hoop and make plays.[/quote]

Maybe you should look at his stats.
2.4, 2.1, 2.5
Those are his TPG over the 3 years.

The Big East is a physical conference. More so than SEC. Less FT's per game is likely him not getting calls he use to get in SEC. Bottom line is he's the same player he was in 2 years at Auburn. He had 2 regular games to start BE and 3 bad since.[/quote]

Ehh, he's from Bridgeport, so I'm sure he's game tough enough and used to contact.

Although.... early in my career I worked in a hospital uptown. Some of the older black guys knew Jabbar (Alcindor) from the schoolyard games, and they said he hated to get hit, and called fouls all game, even at 7 plus feet tall against smaller competition. As a result he had little street cred in Harlem. They would go on and on about Dwayne Washington, though, who they called by his street name, Pac-Man instead of Pearl. Great nickname because he could zip around the court and change direction completely on the fly, devouring opponents.

They also loved Chris Mullin, who they called "Little Larry Bird"
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=315236][quote="Moose" post=315229][quote="Boo Harvey" post=315224]I'm not looking at his stats, but from watching Heron this year, he's been a turnover machine. He recklessly bulls his way to the basket like Ahmed did last year and frequently turns it over. I didn't watch him at Auburn, but I can't believe this is a new development. It's one thing for a good shooter to go cold, but it's another thing for a stud athlete to suddenly forget how to drive the ball to the hoop and make plays.[/quote]

Maybe you should look at his stats.
2.4, 2.1, 2.5
Those are his TPG over the 3 years.

The Big East is a physical conference. More so than SEC. Less FT's per game is likely him not getting calls he use to get in SEC. Bottom line is he's the same player he was in 2 years at Auburn. He had 2 regular games to start BE and 3 bad since.[/quote]

Ehh, he's from Bridgeport, so I'm sure he's game tough enough and used to contact.

Although.... early in my career I worked in a hospital uptown. Some of the older black guys knew Jabbar (Alcindor) from the schoolyard games, and they said he hated to get hit, and called fouls all game, even at 7 plus feet tall against smaller competition. As a result he had little street cred in Harlem. They would go on and on about Dwayne Washington, though, who they called by his street name, Pac-Man instead of Pearl. Great nickname because he could zip around the court and change direction completely on the fly, devouring opponents.

They also loved Chris Mullin, who they called "Little Larry Bird"[/quote]

He complains a lot when fouled or not fouled. The whole team does. Then again they must pick it up from the HC.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=315231]Anyone who has seen Heron play, especially in person, can see he is not playing well. Early in the season we believed Ponds and Heron to be options #1 and #1A, and that hasn't been the case. Heron's stats are somewhat bloated by the weak OOC schedule and two 30+ point games.

We really need Heron to be the guy we expected. There will be nights where even a healthy Ponds won't be superman, and Heron can provide efficient offensive production. Against weaker competition other guys can step it up, but if we are to play toe to toe against top 15 competition, we need Heron at his best. He is STILL the most likely guy other than Ponds to count on for 15-20 points in a big game, and if we are to go deep in the BET, or survive the 1st weekend of the NCAA tournament, we will need Heron playing at a level he is capable of.

Still plenty of time for him to put it together. I think he has to begin to trust that when he gives the ball up, he will get it back when open.[/quote]

I would counter that what most expected him to be very likely was based on what they saw in HS since it would appear no one on this board watches SEC games, so in reality our expectations don't really matter. If he's doing pretty much what he did at Auburn then what made anyone think he would challenge Ponds for 1 and 1A. As I said often and was killed for the coaches in the SEC had the other 2 Auburn guards 2nd team all conference last year, not Mustapha. Again manage expectations.

He's averaging 13+ in BE games but is coming off two weak games after a few strong performances. He's also obviously playing out of positionless since where he's been put is where that 6-8+ stretch 4 and/or 5 usually are, not a 6-5 SG/SF. That doesn't really affect his offense but as others have pointed out it could affect his D which might carry over to the other end.

Finally I would say that on any given day any of the 4 non-Ponds starters could reasonably be expected to be the #2 scorer, but all have to play well to beat good teams and having 1 or 2 off any given night makes this team vulnerable even when Shamorie is playing.
 
[quote="Moose" post=315238][quote="Beast of the East" post=315236][quote="Moose" post=315229][quote="Boo Harvey" post=315224]I'm not looking at his stats, but from watching Heron this year, he's been a turnover machine. He recklessly bulls his way to the basket like Ahmed did last year and frequently turns it over. I didn't watch him at Auburn, but I can't believe this is a new development. It's one thing for a good shooter to go cold, but it's another thing for a stud athlete to suddenly forget how to drive the ball to the hoop and make plays.[/quote]

Maybe you should look at his stats.
2.4, 2.1, 2.5
Those are his TPG over the 3 years.

The Big East is a physical conference. More so than SEC. Less FT's per game is likely him not getting calls he use to get in SEC. Bottom line is he's the same player he was in 2 years at Auburn. He had 2 regular games to start BE and 3 bad since.[/quote]

Ehh, he's from Bridgeport, so I'm sure he's game tough enough and used to contact.

Although.... early in my career I worked in a hospital uptown. Some of the older black guys knew Jabbar (Alcindor) from the schoolyard games, and they said he hated to get hit, and called fouls all game, even at 7 plus feet tall against smaller competition. As a result he had little street cred in Harlem. They would go on and on about Dwayne Washington, though, who they called by his street name, Pac-Man instead of Pearl. Great nickname because he could zip around the court and change direction completely on the fly, devouring opponents.

They also loved Chris Mullin, who they called "Little Larry Bird"[/quote]

He complains a lot when fouled or not fouled. The whole team does. Then again they must pick it up from the HC.[/quote]

 
It's pretty typical that shortcomings and mistakes made on offense are hyper-intensified by fans while overlooking the rest of the player. This happens constantly with Simon and now Heron.

These guys have great offensive numbers and Defensively I'm not just talking about locking down opposing stars as good as anyone in the nation, but I don't think this team could play the switching defense Mullin is playing with any success short of Simon and Heron. These guys are so versatile physically. Whether we should be playing this type of defense is another issue and one of philosophy apparently. But these guys are special and overall doing extraordinary things.
 
As others have pointed out Heron's stats are extremely close to what they were at Auburn where most of us didn't see him play more than once or twice. What is up a bit (in a negative sense) from last year is fouls per game and turnovers per game. Safe to say the former is a result of being asked to guard bigger players and latter is likely a function of getting used to new teammates (although turnovers are up .5 per game from last year they are very much like his freshman year). Also agree he seems to bull his way to the hoop a bit too much and hopefully that is something staff sees as well and will work with him there. He should be our #2 offensive option most games and believe he will be by year end.
 
[quote="Moose" post=315238][quote="Beast of the East" post=315236][quote="Moose" post=315229][quote="Boo Harvey" post=315224]I'm not looking at his stats, but from watching Heron this year, he's been a turnover machine. He recklessly bulls his way to the basket like Ahmed did last year and frequently turns it over. I didn't watch him at Auburn, but I can't believe this is a new development. It's one thing for a good shooter to go cold, but it's another thing for a stud athlete to suddenly forget how to drive the ball to the hoop and make plays.[/quote]

Maybe you should look at his stats.
2.4, 2.1, 2.5
Those are his TPG over the 3 years.

The Big East is a physical conference. More so than SEC. Less FT's per game is likely him not getting calls he use to get in SEC. Bottom line is he's the same player he was in 2 years at Auburn. He had 2 regular games to start BE and 3 bad since.[/quote]

Ehh, he's from Bridgeport, so I'm sure he's game tough enough and used to contact.

Although.... early in my career I worked in a hospital uptown. Some of the older black guys knew Jabbar (Alcindor) from the schoolyard games, and they said he hated to get hit, and called fouls all game, even at 7 plus feet tall against smaller competition. As a result he had little street cred in Harlem. They would go on and on about Dwayne Washington, though, who they called by his street name, Pac-Man instead of Pearl. Great nickname because he could zip around the court and change direction completely on the fly, devouring opponents.

They also loved Chris Mullin, who they called "Little Larry Bird"[/quote]

He complains a lot when fouled or not fouled. The whole team does. Then again they must pick it up from the HC.[/quote]

Louie complained, Fran complained and so did Jarvis.
Almost all successful college coaches complain to refs
Norm didn't complain about refs
 
[quote="Moose" post=315238][quote="Beast of the East" post=315236][quote="Moose" post=315229][quote="Boo Harvey" post=315224]I'm not looking at his stats, but from watching Heron this year, he's been a turnover machine. He recklessly bulls his way to the basket like Ahmed did last year and frequently turns it over. I didn't watch him at Auburn, but I can't believe this is a new development. It's one thing for a good shooter to go cold, but it's another thing for a stud athlete to suddenly forget how to drive the ball to the hoop and make plays.[/quote]

Maybe you should look at his stats.
2.4, 2.1, 2.5
Those are his TPG over the 3 years.

The Big East is a physical conference. More so than SEC. Less FT's per game is likely him not getting calls he use to get in SEC. Bottom line is he's the same player he was in 2 years at Auburn. He had 2 regular games to start BE and 3 bad since.[/quote]

Ehh, he's from Bridgeport, so I'm sure he's game tough enough and used to contact.

Although.... early in my career I worked in a hospital uptown. Some of the older black guys knew Jabbar (Alcindor) from the schoolyard games, and they said he hated to get hit, and called fouls all game, even at 7 plus feet tall against smaller competition. As a result he had little street cred in Harlem. They would go on and on about Dwayne Washington, though, who they called by his street name, Pac-Man instead of Pearl. Great nickname because he could zip around the court and change direction completely on the fly, devouring opponents.

They also loved Chris Mullin, who they called "Little Larry Bird"[/quote]

He complains a lot when fouled or not fouled. The whole team does. Then again they must pick it up from the HC.[/quote]

When I coached, I would tell the kids never to argue with a ref, and if they did say something, say it in a calm voice without gesticulating as to respect him and not show him up. I would say it's much more appropriate for a coach to complain than players, but Mullin does lose focus and complains after the play is long over. Say your piece and move on.
 
Anyone who has an issue with Heron was simply not being realistic with expectations. He only averaged 15 ppg as a physically superior soph. What did people expect here...20+? Ponds has always clearly been the better offensive player.

He's not close to an NBA player at this point but he could be a late first rounder next year if he stays and shows improvement. If he is not back next year it won't be because of the NBA.
 
[quote="Marillac" post=315253]Anyone who has an issue with Heron was simply not being realistic with expectations. He only averaged 15 ppg as a physically superior soph. What did people expect here...20+? Ponds has always clearly been the better offensive player.

He's not close to an NBA player at this point but he could be a late first rounder next year if he stays and shows improvement. If he is not back next year it won't be because of the NBA.[/quote]


I think a lot of folks didn't watch Auburn games but look at the stats and combine that with the fact that he declared for the draft last year and expect that adds up to be an all-america type talent. I think he declared because he knew he didn't want to go back to Auburn and wanted to see if he had other options before moving on the transfer decision. He didn't. Glad to have him and hope he improves his play as the season moves along.
 
[quote="austour" post=315254][quote="Marillac" post=315253]Anyone who has an issue with Heron was simply not being realistic with expectations. He only averaged 15 ppg as a physically superior soph. What did people expect here...20+? Ponds has always clearly been the better offensive player.

He's not close to an NBA player at this point but he could be a late first rounder next year if he stays and shows improvement. If he is not back next year it won't be because of the NBA.[/quote]


I think a lot of folks didn't watch Auburn games but look at the stats and combine that with the fact that he declared for the draft last year and expect that adds up to be an all-america type talent. I think he declared because he knew he didn't want to go back to Auburn and wanted to see if he had other options before moving on the transfer decision. He didn't. Glad to have him and hope he improves his play as the season moves along.[/quote]

Agreed. I am thrilled to have him. I'm more excited for him next year though. I think he can still show vast improvement over the rest of the season.

Former St. John's commit, Samir Doughty, has taken over for him and is averaging 9 ppg and is already a better offensive player IMO.
 
[quote="Marillac" post=315255][quote="austour" post=315254][quote="Marillac" post=315253]Anyone who has an issue with Heron was simply not being realistic with expectations. He only averaged 15 ppg as a physically superior soph. What did people expect here...20+? Ponds has always clearly been the better offensive player.

He's not close to an NBA player at this point but he could be a late first rounder next year if he stays and shows improvement. If he is not back next year it won't be because of the NBA.[/quote]


I think a lot of folks didn't watch Auburn games but look at the stats and combine that with the fact that he declared for the draft last year and expect that adds up to be an all-america type talent. I think he declared because he knew he didn't want to go back to Auburn and wanted to see if he had other options before moving on the transfer decision. He didn't. Glad to have him and hope he improves his play as the season moves along.[/quote]

Agreed. I am thrilled to have him. I'm more excited for him next year though. I think he can still show vast improvement over the rest of the season.

Former St. John's commit, Samir Doughty, has taken over for him and is averaging 9 ppg and is already a better offensive player IMO.[/quote]

Mustapha Heron was originally recruited by Slice to St. John's. He was a 5 star prep who went to Auburn to play for an established coach. He was an All SEC player who averaged 16 and 5 as a sophomore. As a senior in prep school he averaged 30.2 points per game and 8.0 rebounds per game. He scored 79 total points in the state semifinals and championship game. He was the Player of the Year 2 years in row in Connecticut.
It's befuddling me that you think that the much traveled Samir Doughty is even in the same class.
Mustapha was a shooting guard at Auburn. He is being used as a small forward by Mullin which is not his natural position and which is doing squat shit for his NBA aspirations. We play a herky jerky game that he is having a difficult time adjusting to. Its ironic that his game went south under the tutelage of two hall of famers.
I doubt he is looking forward to be tutored into irrelevance for another year.
 
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[quote="we are sju" post=315248][quote="Moose" post=315238][quote="Beast of the East" post=315236][quote="Moose" post=315229][quote="Boo Harvey" post=315224]I'm not looking at his stats, but from watching Heron this year, he's been a turnover machine. He recklessly bulls his way to the basket like Ahmed did last year and frequently turns it over. I didn't watch him at Auburn, but I can't believe this is a new development. It's one thing for a good shooter to go cold, but it's another thing for a stud athlete to suddenly forget how to drive the ball to the hoop and make plays.[/quote]

Maybe you should look at his stats.
2.4, 2.1, 2.5
Those are his TPG over the 3 years.

The Big East is a physical conference. More so than SEC. Less FT's per game is likely him not getting calls he use to get in SEC. Bottom line is he's the same player he was in 2 years at Auburn. He had 2 regular games to start BE and 3 bad since.[/quote]

Ehh, he's from Bridgeport, so I'm sure he's game tough enough and used to contact.

Although.... early in my career I worked in a hospital uptown. Some of the older black guys knew Jabbar (Alcindor) from the schoolyard games, and they said he hated to get hit, and called fouls all game, even at 7 plus feet tall against smaller competition. As a result he had little street cred in Harlem. They would go on and on about Dwayne Washington, though, who they called by his street name, Pac-Man instead of Pearl. Great nickname because he could zip around the court and change direction completely on the fly, devouring opponents.

They also loved Chris Mullin, who they called "Little Larry Bird"[/quote]

He complains a lot when fouled or not fouled. The whole team does. Then again they must pick it up from the HC.[/quote]

Louie complained, Fran complained and so did Jarvis.
Almost all successful college coaches complain to refs
Norm didn't complain about refs[/quote]

I bet all those coaches you mentioned knew the officials by name.
 
[quote="Moose" post=315261][quote="we are sju" post=315248][quote="Moose" post=315238][quote="Beast of the East" post=315236][quote="Moose" post=315229][quote="Boo Harvey" post=315224]I'm not looking at his stats, but from watching Heron this year, he's been a turnover machine. He recklessly bulls his way to the basket like Ahmed did last year and frequently turns it over. I didn't watch him at Auburn, but I can't believe this is a new development. It's one thing for a good shooter to go cold, but it's another thing for a stud athlete to suddenly forget how to drive the ball to the hoop and make plays.[/quote]

Maybe you should look at his stats.
2.4, 2.1, 2.5
Those are his TPG over the 3 years.

The Big East is a physical conference. More so than SEC. Less FT's per game is likely him not getting calls he use to get in SEC. Bottom line is he's the same player he was in 2 years at Auburn. He had 2 regular games to start BE and 3 bad since.[/quote]

Ehh, he's from Bridgeport, so I'm sure he's game tough enough and used to contact.

Although.... early in my career I worked in a hospital uptown. Some of the older black guys knew Jabbar (Alcindor) from the schoolyard games, and they said he hated to get hit, and called fouls all game, even at 7 plus feet tall against smaller competition. As a result he had little street cred in Harlem. They would go on and on about Dwayne Washington, though, who they called by his street name, Pac-Man instead of Pearl. Great nickname because he could zip around the court and change direction completely on the fly, devouring opponents.

They also loved Chris Mullin, who they called "Little Larry Bird"[/quote]

He complains a lot when fouled or not fouled. The whole team does. Then again they must pick it up from the HC.[/quote]

Louie complained, Fran complained and so did Jarvis.
Almost all successful college coaches complain to refs
Norm didn't complain about refs[/quote]

I bet all those coaches you mentioned knew the officials by name.[/quote]

Coach K scolds refs like they are his children. Never gets a T and gets every call ever made.
 
[quote="we are sju" post=315264][quote="Moose" post=315261][quote="we are sju" post=315248][quote="Moose" post=315238][quote="Beast of the East" post=315236][quote="Moose" post=315229][quote="Boo Harvey" post=315224]I'm not looking at his stats, but from watching Heron this year, he's been a turnover machine. He recklessly bulls his way to the basket like Ahmed did last year and frequently turns it over. I didn't watch him at Auburn, but I can't believe this is a new development. It's one thing for a good shooter to go cold, but it's another thing for a stud athlete to suddenly forget how to drive the ball to the hoop and make plays.[/quote]

Maybe you should look at his stats.
2.4, 2.1, 2.5
Those are his TPG over the 3 years.

The Big East is a physical conference. More so than SEC. Less FT's per game is likely him not getting calls he use to get in SEC. Bottom line is he's the same player he was in 2 years at Auburn. He had 2 regular games to start BE and 3 bad since.[/quote]

Ehh, he's from Bridgeport, so I'm sure he's game tough enough and used to contact.

Although.... early in my career I worked in a hospital uptown. Some of the older black guys knew Jabbar (Alcindor) from the schoolyard games, and they said he hated to get hit, and called fouls all game, even at 7 plus feet tall against smaller competition. As a result he had little street cred in Harlem. They would go on and on about Dwayne Washington, though, who they called by his street name, Pac-Man instead of Pearl. Great nickname because he could zip around the court and change direction completely on the fly, devouring opponents.

They also loved Chris Mullin, who they called "Little Larry Bird"[/quote]

He complains a lot when fouled or not fouled. The whole team does. Then again they must pick it up from the HC.[/quote]

Louie complained, Fran complained and so did Jarvis.
Almost all successful college coaches complain to refs
Norm didn't complain about refs[/quote]

I bet all those coaches you mentioned knew the officials by name.[/quote]

Coach K scolds refs like they are his children. Never gets a T and gets every call ever made.[/quote]

That's what success will do for you.
 
[quote="ron " post=315265][quote="we are sju" post=315264][quote="Moose" post=315261][quote="we are sju" post=315248][quote="Moose" post=315238][quote="Beast of the East" post=315236][quote="Moose" post=315229][quote="Boo Harvey" post=315224]I'm not looking at his stats, but from watching Heron this year, he's been a turnover machine. He recklessly bulls his way to the basket like Ahmed did last year and frequently turns it over. I didn't watch him at Auburn, but I can't believe this is a new development. It's one thing for a good shooter to go cold, but it's another thing for a stud athlete to suddenly forget how to drive the ball to the hoop and make plays.[/quote]

Maybe you should look at his stats.
2.4, 2.1, 2.5
Those are his TPG over the 3 years.

The Big East is a physical conference. More so than SEC. Less FT's per game is likely him not getting calls he use to get in SEC. Bottom line is he's the same player he was in 2 years at Auburn. He had 2 regular games to start BE and 3 bad since.[/quote]

Ehh, he's from Bridgeport, so I'm sure he's game tough enough and used to contact.

Although.... early in my career I worked in a hospital uptown. Some of the older black guys knew Jabbar (Alcindor) from the schoolyard games, and they said he hated to get hit, and called fouls all game, even at 7 plus feet tall against smaller competition. As a result he had little street cred in Harlem. They would go on and on about Dwayne Washington, though, who they called by his street name, Pac-Man instead of Pearl. Great nickname because he could zip around the court and change direction completely on the fly, devouring opponents.

They also loved Chris Mullin, who they called "Little Larry Bird"[/quote]

He complains a lot when fouled or not fouled. The whole team does. Then again they must pick it up from the HC.[/quote]

Louie complained, Fran complained and so did Jarvis.
Almost all successful college coaches complain to refs
Norm didn't complain about refs[/quote]

I bet all those coaches you mentioned knew the officials by name.[/quote]

Coach K scolds refs like they are his children. Never gets a T and gets every call ever made.[/quote]

That's what success will do for you.[/quote]

Considering the fact that only a handful of games they play each year are particularly competitive it doesn't mean much anyway.
 
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