@Seton Hall, Sun. Jan. 22, 12 Noon, FS1/570AM

[lawmanfan]

Agree with most of the above, especially Fuschia.

IMHO if you are playing for this season then Williams should be starting. I understand his limitations. However he is the only one on the team who has the necessary attitude and physicality on defense (I have no problem with Owens attitude or effort, but he isn't built to bang around down low). The team desperately needs someone on the front line to do that (you certainly get the necessary toughness from Lovett in the backcourt). I think that would shore up the defense and the rebounding immediately. Both have been abysmal all year, and continue to be so.

The issue is that I do not think Mullin is playing for this year. I think he figures Williams will be gone, or even if he's back he would be outplayed by incoming recruits. I think he has some hope for Yakwe, which is why he continues to start and get minutes. I also think that with Williams out he wants the others to learn how to step up. They didn't against Georgetown, they didn't against Xavier, they didn't against the Hall in the first half. They have at other times. He is trying to bring them along to where they understand that they have to play with that effort all the time.

On the offensive end, some of the issue is structure and some is the players. There are a few plays where players move and things happen. IMHO there aren't enough of them because the idea is not to be Butler, it's to run the floor. Teaching ball movement in an open-floor, less-structured offense is harder than in a designed system, so that's a work in progress.

On the player end, the issue is not that we have guards. It's that we have two lead guards plus Ahmed who are all used to being the focal point of the offense. Of the three Ponds has adjusted best in terms of taking good shots and distributing. Lovett is close behind, but he still has too many D'Angelo Harrison moments for me, especially if he's supposed to be playing the point and getting this to work as a team effort. And Ahmed is of course Ahmed, he still thinks "pass" is a four-letter word.

Once again I think the staff is playing for the future, not for today. It would be easier (today) to run nothing but sets and insist that the ball get passed to where it is supposed to go. But that isn't the game they want to play in the future, so they are living with the growing pains while they try to get this year's team to play next year's (or the year after's) game.

I just think there is a pretty clear tension between what would look better this year and what are building blocks for what the staff wants to do long-term. Last year it was very ugly. This year it's unattractive, but you can see progress in spots. Hopefully next year it will be good. But for that to happen this group has to take its lumps now and figure out that if they want to look good next year, then they have to play defense all the time, hit the boards harder, and share the ball. SHU game was a lesson in that. Let's see where they go with it. I expect some more ugliness before the end of the year, but I also expect to see more consistent play somewhere along the line, too.

 

[redfan25lljkj888]

Agree with most of the above, especially Fuschia.

IMHO if you are playing for this season then Williams should be starting. I understand his limitations. However he is the only one on the team who has the necessary attitude and physicality on defense (I have no problem with Owens attitude or effort, but he isn't built to bang around down low). The team desperately needs someone on the front line to do that (you certainly get the necessary toughness from Lovett in the backcourt). I think that would shore up the defense and the rebounding immediately. Both have been abysmal all year, and continue to be so.

The issue is that I do not think Mullin is playing for this year. I think he figures Williams will be gone, or even if he's back he would be outplayed by incoming recruits. I think he has some hope for Yakwe, which is why he continues to start and get minutes. I also think that with Williams out he wants the others to learn how to step up. They didn't against Georgetown, they didn't against Xavier, they didn't against the Hall in the first half. They have at other times. He is trying to bring them along to where they understand that they have to play with that effort all the time.

On the offensive end, some of the issue is structure and some is the players. There are a few plays where players move and things happen. IMHO there aren't enough of them because the idea is not to be Butler, it's to run the floor. Teaching ball movement in an open-floor, less-structured offense is harder than in a designed system, so that's a work in progress.

On the player end, the issue is not that we have guards. It's that we have two lead guards plus Ahmed who are all used to being the focal point of the offense. Of the three Ponds has adjusted best in terms of taking good shots and distributing. Lovett is close behind, but he still has too many D'Angelo Harrison moments for me, especially if he's supposed to be playing the point and getting this to work as a team effort. And Ahmed is of course Ahmed, he still thinks "pass" is a four-letter word.

Once again I think the staff is playing for the future, not for today. It would be easier (today) to run nothing but sets and insist that the ball get passed to where it is supposed to go. But that isn't the game they want to play in the future, so they are living with the growing pains while they try to get this year's team to play next year's (or the year after's) game.

I just think there is a pretty clear tension between what would look better this year and what are building blocks for what the staff wants to do long-term. Last year it was very ugly. This year it's unattractive, but you can see progress in spots. Hopefully next year it will be good. But for that to happen this group has to take its lumps now and figure out that if they want to look good next year, then they have to play defense all the time, hit the boards harder, and share the ball. SHU game was a lesson in that. Let's see where they go with it. I expect some more ugliness before the end of the year, but I also expect to see more consistent play somewhere along the line, too.

I agree with this post and I also believe they are building towards a certain style of play for next year or even the year after. My concern is that "taking their lumps" for a long period of time may result in resentment towards the coaches, each other etc. This coaching staff is inexperienced and is trying to teach these kids to be patient when they come from programs where they are used to winning, a very tall order but I am hoping for the best.

 

[Ray Morgan]

Agree with most of the above, especially Fuschia.

IMHO if you are playing for this season then Williams should be starting. I understand his limitations. However he is the only one on the team who has the necessary attitude and physicality on defense (I have no problem with Owens attitude or effort, but he isn't built to bang around down low). The team desperately needs someone on the front line to do that (you certainly get the necessary toughness from Lovett in the backcourt). I think that would shore up the defense and the rebounding immediately. Both have been abysmal all year, and continue to be so.

The issue is that I do not think Mullin is playing for this year. I think he figures Williams will be gone, or even if he's back he would be outplayed by incoming recruits. I think he has some hope for Yakwe, which is why he continues to start and get minutes. I also think that with Williams out he wants the others to learn how to step up. They didn't against Georgetown, they didn't against Xavier, they didn't against the Hall in the first half. They have at other times. He is trying to bring them along to where they understand that they have to play with that effort all the time.

On the offensive end, some of the issue is structure and some is the players. There are a few plays where players move and things happen. IMHO there aren't enough of them because the idea is not to be Butler, it's to run the floor. Teaching ball movement in an open-floor, less-structured offense is harder than in a designed system, so that's a work in progress.

On the player end, the issue is not that we have guards. It's that we have two lead guards plus Ahmed who are all used to being the focal point of the offense. Of the three Ponds has adjusted best in terms of taking good shots and distributing. Lovett is close behind, but he still has too many D'Angelo Harrison moments for me, especially if he's supposed to be playing the point and getting this to work as a team effort. And Ahmed is of course Ahmed, he still thinks "pass" is a four-letter word.

Once again I think the staff is playing for the future, not for today. It would be easier (today) to run nothing but sets and insist that the ball get passed to where it is supposed to go. But that isn't the game they want to play in the future, so they are living with the growing pains while they try to get this year's team to play next year's (or the year after's) game.

I just think there is a pretty clear tension between what would look better this year and what are building blocks for what the staff wants to do long-term. Last year it was very ugly. This year it's unattractive, but you can see progress in spots. Hopefully next year it will be good. But for that to happen this group has to take its lumps now and figure out that if they want to look good next year, then they have to play defense all the time, hit the boards harder, and share the ball. SHU game was a lesson in that. Let's see where they go with it. I expect some more ugliness before the end of the year, but I also expect to see more consistent play somewhere along the line, too.

While it would make sense that Mullin is thinking longer term, I just don't see how an increase in Darien Willams' minutes would have added a single win. It's not like UCLA sitting David Greenwood when he was a freshman.

As for getting less one on one play from the 3 you mentioned-most high major recruits were the focal point of the offense in high school. The coach has to get them to buy in to sharing the ball. Mullin is dealing with something that every division 1 coach faces.

What I don't see is the leap from ugly (last year) to unattractive, to good. Maybe unattractive to plain or acceptable, but not good. Need a mystery recruit to get to good.

 

[fun]

The issue is that I do not think Mullin is playing for this year [...] Once again I think the staff is playing for the future, not for today. It would be easier (today) to run nothing but sets and insist that the ball get passed to where it is supposed to go. But that isn't the game they want to play in the future, so they are living with the growing pains while they try to get this year's team to play next year's (or the year after's) game.

I think the answer to that is of course he's playing the long game. In the first place he said as much when he was hired: that he's looking to get SJU back to where it was - I don't have the inclination to argue about whether Saint John's ever was where he thinks it was - but I take him to mean that when he's through SJU will be a perennial contender in the Big East and more often than not ranked in the top 75 and more often than not a tournament team, with occasional success there: that's what SJU was when Mullin was growing up, under Lou. In the second, Mullin might not know enough about basketball to get Batshit Ahmed the hell out of there but he knows enough to understand that this team as currently constituted is going no where: Lavin having left the cupboard bare they have young guards, a non existent front line, and upper classmen who are, to be charitable, awful. So playing the short game makes no sense and no one but the most delusional of fans thought this team was going anywhere anyway. They're too young and too skinny and have too little experience to contend for anything except a CBI consolation game championship. Finally, there's the system: there is not a successful college basketball coach anywhere who alters his system year to year to accomodate his players. Successful coaches imagine winning systems and implement them and recruit players who fit them. Jim Boeheim is not in the hall of fame because he's a genius and neither are John Calipari and Mike Schreweshrenky. They're in the hall of fame because they concocted diabolical ways of winning and recruited players who were able to thrive within them. I don't know whether Mullin's system - you want to call it Nelly ball, fine, I don't see it as that but whatever - is a winning system, but regardless there has not been enough time to know. Certainly some coaches - like that dope Lavin - concoct harebrained schemes that are destined to failure. But Mullin's system requires not only skilled personnel but maturity: on the offensive end that means knowing when the first good shot is the best shot and on the defensive end that not everything that might get you on Sportcenter is the best play and to play hard nevertheless and none of that is something that is easily taught or learned, especially in half a year. All of it requires talent, sure, but also strength, and mental acuity, and inculcation into a culture and philosophy. And that takes more than 18 months. It might take more than 28 months. And it might not be possible ever. But you either believe in Mullin or not - like the faithful believe in the baby Jesus. Maybe Mullin's a charlatan but I have not seen evidence of that as yet: he's a basketball prodigy. So until he's proven fallible I choose to have faith: when you get down to it that's what trust the process means.

 

[mjmaherjr]

Seton Hall recap:http://www.bigeastboards.com/

you pretty much nailed it as to how I think politically right now with this election

 

[mjmaherjr]

The issue is that I do not think Mullin is playing for this year [...] Once again I think the staff is playing for the future, not for today. It would be easier (today) to run nothing but sets and insist that the ball get passed to where it is supposed to go. But that isn't the game they want to play in the future, so they are living with the growing pains while they try to get this year's team to play next year's (or the year after's) game.

I think the answer to that is of course he's playing the long game. In the first place he said as much when he was hired: that he's looking to get SJU back to where it was - I don't have the inclination to argue about whether Saint John's ever was where he thinks it was - but I take him to mean that when he's through SJU will be a perennial contender in the Big East and more often than not ranked in the top 75 and more often than not a tournament team, with occasional success there: that's what SJU was when Mullin was growing up, under Lou. In the second, Mullin might not know enough about basketball to get Batshit Ahmed the hell out of there but he knows enough to understand that this team as currently constituted is going no where: Lavin having left the cupboard bare they have young guards, a non existent front line, and upper classmen who are, to be charitable, awful. So playing the short game makes no sense and no one but the most delusional of fans thought this team was going anywhere anyway. They're too young and too skinny and have too little experience to contend for anything except a CBI consolation game championship. Finally, there's the system: there is not a successful college basketball coach anywhere who alters his system year to year to accomodate his players. Successful coaches imagine winning systems and implement them and recruit players who fit them. Jim Boeheim is not in the hall of fame because he's a genius and neither are John Calipari and Mike Schreweshrenky. They're in the hall of fame because they concocted diabolical ways of winning and recruited players who were able to thrive within them. I don't know whether Mullin's system - you want to call it Nelly ball, fine, I don't see it as that but whatever - is a winning system, but regardless there has not been enough time to know. Certainly some coaches - like that dope Lavin - concoct harebrained schemes that are destined to failure. But Mullin's system requires not only skilled personnel but maturity: on the offensive end that means knowing when the first good shot is the best shot and on the defensive end that not everything that might get you on Sportcenter is the best play and to play hard nevertheless and none of that is something that is easily taught or learned, especially in half a year. All of it requires talent, sure, but also strength, and mental acuity, and inculcation into a culture and philosophy. And that takes more than 18 months. It might take more than 28 months. And it might not be possible ever. But you either believe in Mullin or not - like the faithful believe in the baby Jesus. Maybe Mullin's a charlatan but I have not seen evidence of that as yet: he's a basketball prodigy. So until he's proven fallible I choose to have faith: when you get down to it that's what trust the process means.

Instead of a system I'd settle for effort on defense

 

[isham]

Someone please explain to me how next years results will be any different from this year without bringing in a quality 4 and 5 man. From everything I'm hearing this seems unlikely.

 

[Section9]

Someone please explain to me how next years results will be any different from this year without bringing in a quality 4 and 5 man. From everything I'm hearing this seems unlikely.

Easy, everybody, barring defections will be a year older and more experienced, and we add two quality guys in Simon and Clark. Plus you can be sure we'll be checking out the juco/5th year transfer scene for a big. This is not going to turn around in a year or two. Either you're in for the ride or not.

 

[mjmaherjr]

Someone please explain to me how next years results will be any different from this year without bringing in a quality 4 and 5 man. From everything I'm hearing this seems unlikely.

Easy, everybody, barring defections will be a year older and more experienced, and we add two quality guys in Simon and Clark. Plus you can be sure we'll be checking out the juco/5th year transfer scene for a big. This is not going to turn around in a year or two. Either you're in for the ride or not.

as far as another big man I'd prefer the juco or 5th year route who can contribute right away then a reach guy who we start building up as great 4 year player. We need help now. Not 3 to 4 years from now

 

[Ray Morgan]

Someone please explain to me how next years results will be any different from this year without bringing in a quality 4 and 5 man. From everything I'm hearing this seems unlikely.

Easy. We get slightly better and every other Big East team gets much worse. Absent that, Clark and Simon play like stars and not rusty transfers that need a year to get back into whatever their groove is.

 

[bk8664]

Someone please explain to me how next years results will be any different from this year without bringing in a quality 4 and 5 man. From everything I'm hearing this seems unlikely.

Easy, everybody, barring defections will be a year older and more experienced, and we add two quality guys in Simon and Clark. Plus you can be sure we'll be checking out the juco/5th year transfer scene for a big. This is not going to turn around in a year or two. Either you're in for the ride or not.

as far as another big man I'd prefer the juco or 5th year route who can contribute right away then a reach guy who we start building up as great 4 year player. We need help now. Not 3 to 4 years from now

We need 3 rebounding - big shouldered guys.. and hopefully one can contribute positively next year. You have to assume a low probability of success.

 

[mjmaherjr]

Someone please explain to me how next years results will be any different from this year without bringing in a quality 4 and 5 man. From everything I'm hearing this seems unlikely.

Easy, everybody, barring defections will be a year older and more experienced, and we add two quality guys in Simon and Clark. Plus you can be sure we'll be checking out the juco/5th year transfer scene for a big. This is not going to turn around in a year or two. Either you're in for the ride or not.

as far as another big man I'd prefer the juco or 5th year route who can contribute right away then a reach guy who we start building up as great 4 year player. We need help now. Not 3 to 4 years from now

We need 3 rebounding - big shouldered guys.. and hopefully one can contribute positively next year. You have to assume a low probability of success.

agreed. if we got a juco or 5th year guy who was a true big man who put up similar numbers to Bashir this year I'd be happy with that

 

[stjohnschris]

Someone please explain to me how next years results will be any different from this year without bringing in a quality 4 and 5 man. From everything I'm hearing this seems unlikely.

Easy. We get slightly better and every other Big East team gets much worse. Absent that, Clark and Simon play like stars and not rusty transfers that need a year to get back into whatever their groove is.

Next years results will likely be better, just like this years results are better than last years results. It seems painfully incremental watching each and every game, but it's there. We could win 4 or 5 BE games this year, and 6 or 7 next year and it's forward progress. And then there's the chance that we actually catch a break and land one or two 5th year SRs, or JUCOs and we make a jump up to 8 BE wins next year.

 

[prjohnnies]

Actually we are going to bring back your boy Lavin next year. This way he can do the job he was supposed to be doing years 3-5 and actually recruit some able players on the front line, so we won't have to worry about playing undersized lineups with teenagers against 22 year old men.

Someone please explain to me how next years results will be any different from this year without bringing in a quality 4 and 5 man. From everything I'm hearing this seems unlikely.

 

[prjohnnies]

I'll settle for 2 bigs - a freshman and a JUCO/grad transfer. Owens will be a year bigger, stronger and more experienced next year. I'm not giving up on Yawke yet. And Clark should absolutely help.

Someone please explain to me how next years results will be any different from this year without bringing in a quality 4 and 5 man. From everything I'm hearing this seems unlikely.

Easy, everybody, barring defections will be a year older and more experienced, and we add two quality guys in Simon and Clark. Plus you can be sure we'll be checking out the juco/5th year transfer scene for a big. This is not going to turn around in a year or two. Either you're in for the ride or not.

as far as another big man I'd prefer the juco or 5th year route who can contribute right away then a reach guy who we start building up as great 4 year player. We need help now. Not 3 to 4 years from now

We need 3 rebounding - big shouldered guys.. and hopefully one can contribute positively next year. You have to assume a low probability of success.

agreed. if we got a juco or 5th year guy who was a true big man who put up similar numbers to Bashir this year I'd be happy with that

 

[RedStormNC]

Since we have no clue how many spots will be open, who we'll get or where they'll come from (HS/JUCO/Grad Trans) I say Matt A. should start some creative thinking like Jim Harbaugh hosting spring practices in Rome to get recruits attention.

Find a big body from any D-1 football Tight Ends who are not getting playing time and may have been two sport stars in HS.

 

[bamafan]

I thought yesterday's game was potentially productive for our team.

No question at all that they did not come out for a road game with the desire, energy and effort needed to compete on the boards. So Delgado killed them. Obviously he is also a size mismatch for anybody we put on him, but that doesn't mean you can't compete.

In the second half you could see much better effort, and while Delgado still got his, it was a more representative effort. It's also the sort of effort that would win this game for St. John's in the home rematch.

The troubling part of the game for me was except one time when the ball moved around the perimeter (and we ended up missing a good shot, which happens), there was virtually no team play on the offensive end of the floor. Mullin wants people to take the first good shot, but if it isn't a GOOD shot then the ball has to move. Unfortunately yesterday it didn't.

I do think that the team learned a couple of lessons yesterday. Let's see if they can take those and make something useful out of them going forward. I would only be disspirited by the loss if it does not result in improvement.

I know everyone wants ball movement, but how? Ball moving around the perimeter is pointless. Other teams know we are not going inside. And even when we do try to get the ball inside more often than not it results in a TO. When you are totally guard orientated tough to have good ball movement.

Yes, tough to have good ball movement when you are guard oriented. Much easier if you are big man oriented. :huh:

You want to go inside back out. We can't even token get the ball inside. Results in us just throwing the ball around the perimeter. You can't even have the guards cut to the basket because they are all tiny and would get swallowed up. Not a difficult concept here.

All your concepts are difficult.

 

[JohnnyFan]

Seton Hall recap:http://www.bigeastboards.com/

You are a talented writer my friend. I detest the the pompous orange bigot more than life itself, yet you still had me laughing.

Oh, and ....to be fair, I was one of those "thuds".

.

 

[paultzman]

Since we have no clue how many spots will be open, who we'll get or where they'll come from (HS/JUCO/Grad Trans) I say Matt A. should start some creative thinking like Jim Harbaugh hosting spring practices in Rome to get recruits attention.

Find a big body from any D-1 football Tight Ends who are not getting playing time and may have been two sport stars in HS.

As noted before, Matt & staff knew Brown situation had gotten shaky months ago and am sure was diligently pursuing alternatives to shore up interior in transfer, Juco markets.

 

[we are sju]

The issue is that I do not think Mullin is playing for this year [...] Once again I think the staff is playing for the future, not for today. It would be easier (today) to run nothing but sets and insist that the ball get passed to where it is supposed to go. But that isn't the game they want to play in the future, so they are living with the growing pains while they try to get this year's team to play next year's (or the year after's) game.

I think the answer to that is of course he's playing the long game. In the first place he said as much when he was hired: that he's looking to get SJU back to where it was - I don't have the inclination to argue about whether Saint John's ever was where he thinks it was - but I take him to mean that when he's through SJU will be a perennial contender in the Big East and more often than not ranked in the top 75 and more often than not a tournament team, with occasional success there: that's what SJU was when Mullin was growing up, under Lou. In the second, Mullin might not know enough about basketball to get Batshit Ahmed the hell out of there but he knows enough to understand that this team as currently constituted is going no where: Lavin having left the cupboard bare they have young guards, a non existent front line, and upper classmen who are, to be charitable, awful. So playing the short game makes no sense and no one but the most delusional of fans thought this team was going anywhere anyway. They're too young and too skinny and have too little experience to contend for anything except a CBI consolation game championship. Finally, there's the system: there is not a successful college basketball coach anywhere who alters his system year to year to accomodate his players. Successful coaches imagine winning systems and implement them and recruit players who fit them. Jim Boeheim is not in the hall of fame because he's a genius and neither are John Calipari and Mike Schreweshrenky. They're in the hall of fame because they concocted diabolical ways of winning and recruited players who were able to thrive within them. I don't know whether Mullin's system - you want to call it Nelly ball, fine, I don't see it as that but whatever - is a winning system, but regardless there has not been enough time to know. Certainly some coaches - like that dope Lavin - concoct harebrained schemes that are destined to failure. But Mullin's system requires not only skilled personnel but maturity: on the offensive end that means knowing when the first good shot is the best shot and on the defensive end that not everything that might get you on Sportcenter is the best play and to play hard nevertheless and none of that is something that is easily taught or learned, especially in half a year. All of it requires talent, sure, but also strength, and mental acuity, and inculcation into a culture and philosophy. And that takes more than 18 months. It might take more than 28 months. And it might not be possible ever. But you either believe in Mullin or not - like the faithful believe in the baby Jesus. Maybe Mullin's a charlatan but I have not seen evidence of that as yet: he's a basketball prodigy. So until he's proven fallible I choose to have faith: when you get down to it that's what trust the process means.

The problem is you can't count on talented kids staying 4 years anymore. Even kids who probably won't sniff the pros. My concern is we have two really dynamic guards. We could really be decent and maybe lay the groundwork to move forward if we bring in some adequate bigs to compliment them. I think Clark will help but he is not enough. My worry is that we won't get quality bigs in time to actually play with the two guards, then you are just starting over again and again and again.
Basically playing the "long game" might not work. Don't know what alternative is though honestly.