@Seton Hall, Sun. Jan. 22, 12 Noon, FS1/570AM

[ManhattAn1]

Need to find an Anthony Glover type player. Guy was a beast down low.

 

[fun]

The problem is you can't count on talented kids staying 4 years anymore. Even kids who probably won't sniff the pros. My concern is we have two really dynamic guards. We could really be decent and maybe lay the groundwork to move forward if we bring in some adequate bigs to compliment them. I think Clark will help but he is not enough. My worry is that we won't get quality bigs in time to actually play with the two guards, then you are just starting over again and again and again.

Basically playing the "long game" might not work. Don't know what alternative is though honestly.

The alternative is being Kentucky and we know that's not happening.

The freshmen guards are great, but if Mullin's chances of success rests solely on their staying four years they should fire him now. What he needs to do is develop continuity of personnel, balance the roster, implement a plausible system and instill a winning culture. That's how Butler and Xavier are successful every year. That's why Lou was successful every year. SJU does not have the budget or the facilities or probably even the will to beat the big boy$ at their own game.

 

[paultzman]

The problem is you can't count on talented kids staying 4 years anymore. Even kids who probably won't sniff the pros. My concern is we have two really dynamic guards. We could really be decent and maybe lay the groundwork to move forward if we bring in some adequate bigs to compliment them. I think Clark will help but he is not enough. My worry is that we won't get quality bigs in time to actually play with the two guards, then you are just starting over again and again and again.

Basically playing the "long game" might not work. Don't know what alternative is though honestly.

The alternative is being Kentucky and we know that's not happening.

The freshmen guards are great, but if Mullin's chances of success rests solely on their staying four years they should fire him now. What he needs to do is develop continuity of personnel, balance the roster, implement a plausible system and instill a winning culture. That's how Butler and Xavier are successful every year. That's why Lou was successful every year. SJU does not have the budget or the facilities or probably even the will to beat the big boy$ at their own game.

Yup

 

[we are sju]

The problem is you can't count on talented kids staying 4 years anymore. Even kids who probably won't sniff the pros. My concern is we have two really dynamic guards. We could really be decent and maybe lay the groundwork to move forward if we bring in some adequate bigs to compliment them. I think Clark will help but he is not enough. My worry is that we won't get quality bigs in time to actually play with the two guards, then you are just starting over again and again and again.

Basically playing the "long game" might not work. Don't know what alternative is though honestly.

The alternative is being Kentucky and we know that's not happening.

The freshmen guards are great, but if Mullin's chances of success rests solely on their staying four years they should fire him now. What he needs to do is develop continuity of personnel, balance the roster, implement a plausible system and instill a winning culture. That's how Butler and Xavier are successful every year. That's why Lou was successful every year. SJU does not have the budget or the facilities or probably even the will to beat the big boy$ at their own game.

I agree and Butler and Creighton are a great template, but they keep their players. The idea is to keep your solid guys around long enough to build on them every year. Again this is not a Chris Mullin problem but a ST John's problem. No idea why we can't keep our players and then compliment them.

BTW if the school would have hired McKillop instead of Norm way back when I think it would have given us a chance at a Creighton or Butler sustainment of success. Some might disagree, but the funny thing is people on these sites at the time were scoffing at being like a Butler or Creighton.

 

[we are sju]

Need to find an Anthony Glover type player. Guy was a beast down low.

You know this might be a unpopular stance but I do not have the same fond and fuzzy memories of Glover or Billy Singleton that most on here have. I think both those guys, though solid hard working players might have led the nation in getting their shots thrown back at them. Singleton had to pump fake 50 times to get a shot off.

For undersized power forwards give me Ty Grant and Lamont Middleton over those other two guys any day of the week.
BTW I think Marvin Clark can fill that role next year.

 

[Red.Fans]

Need to find an Anthony Glover type player. Guy was a beast down low.

You know this might be a unpopular stance but I do not have the same fond and fuzzy memories of Glover or Billy Singleton that most on here have. I think both those guys, though solid hard working players might have led the nation in getting their shots thrown back at them. Singleton had to pump fake 50 times to get a shot off.

For undersized power forwards give me Ty Grant and Lamont Middleton over those other two guys any day of the week.
BTW I think Marvin Clark can fit that role next year.

"unpopular" in the way that mental retardation is unpopular.

 

[we are sju]

Need to find an Anthony Glover type player. Guy was a beast down low.

You know this might be a unpopular stance but I do not have the same fond and fuzzy memories of Glover or Billy Singleton that most on here have. I think both those guys, though solid hard working players might have led the nation in getting their shots thrown back at them. Singleton had to pump fake 50 times to get a shot off.

For undersized power forwards give me Ty Grant and Lamont Middleton over those other two guys any day of the week.
BTW I think Marvin Clark can fit that role next year.

"unpopular" in the way that mental retardation is unpopular.

Both were overrated.
Grant and Middleton much better basketball players.

 

[Red.Fans]

Need to find an Anthony Glover type player. Guy was a beast down low.

You know this might be a unpopular stance but I do not have the same fond and fuzzy memories of Glover or Billy Singleton that most on here have. I think both those guys, though solid hard working players might have led the nation in getting their shots thrown back at them. Singleton had to pump fake 50 times to get a shot off.

For undersized power forwards give me Ty Grant and Lamont Middleton over those other two guys any day of the week.
BTW I think Marvin Clark can fit that role next year.

"unpopular" in the way that mental retardation is unpopular.

Both were overrated.
Grant and Middleton much better basketball players.

Stupid comments on SO MANY LEVELS. Not sure I even want to get into it because it is so inane and I have the flu. Probably not worth it.

 

[we are sju]

Need to find an Anthony Glover type player. Guy was a beast down low.

You know this might be a unpopular stance but I do not have the same fond and fuzzy memories of Glover or Billy Singleton that most on here have. I think both those guys, though solid hard working players might have led the nation in getting their shots thrown back at them. Singleton had to pump fake 50 times to get a shot off.

For undersized power forwards give me Ty Grant and Lamont Middleton over those other two guys any day of the week.
BTW I think Marvin Clark can fit that role next year.

"unpopular" in the way that mental retardation is unpopular.

Both were overrated.
Grant and Middleton much better basketball players.

Stupid comments on SO MANY LEVELS. Not sure I even want to get into it because it is so inane and I have the flu. Probably not worth it.

Why? if Jayson Williams didn't get hurt Singleton is a bench guy and honestly we all thought Glover would be better."If Glover was eligible he would have dunked all over that kid"-Mike Jarvis after Ohio State loss in Elite 8. Played hard and that is great and all but I am not hoping for the next Glover or Singleton. One of those things where over time they became better than they actually were in people's minds.
Again Grant and Middleton were both better.

 

[we are sju]

Need to find an Anthony Glover type player. Guy was a beast down low.

You know this might be a unpopular stance but I do not have the same fond and fuzzy memories of Glover or Billy Singleton that most on here have. I think both those guys, though solid hard working players might have led the nation in getting their shots thrown back at them. Singleton had to pump fake 50 times to get a shot off.

For undersized power forwards give me Ty Grant and Lamont Middleton over those other two guys any day of the week.
BTW I think Marvin Clark can fit that role next year.

"unpopular" in the way that mental retardation is unpopular.

Both were overrated.
Grant and Middleton much better basketball players.

Stupid comments on SO MANY LEVELS. Not sure I even want to get into it because it is so inane and I have the flu. Probably not worth it.

And if you didn't like those comments have at this one. I would take Lamont Hamilton over both of those guys!

 

[JackofVirginia]

Need to find an Anthony Glover type player. Guy was a beast down low.

You know this might be a unpopular stance but I do not have the same fond and fuzzy memories of Glover or Billy Singleton that most on here have. I think both those guys, though solid hard working players might have led the nation in getting their shots thrown back at them. Singleton had to pump fake 50 times to get a shot off.

For undersized power forwards give me Ty Grant and Lamont Middleton over those other two guys any day of the week.
BTW I think Marvin Clark can fit that role next year.

"unpopular" in the way that mental retardation is unpopular.

Both were overrated.
Grant and Middleton much better basketball players.

Say what?

 

[Red.Fans]

Of the four, now 5 guys mentioned all were laudable players for us. these three are a cut above. :

1) Grant, best single season with the most impact of any of the guys mentioned. Could have potentially beaten anyone without his injury. Totally disregarded by Fraschilla but when given the chance shined under new coach.
2) Singleton the greatest talent of the bunch and one of the greatest talents to ever play for St Johns but had two career ending injuries before ever suiting up for St Johns so we saw only a pretty role specific player. In horse racing terms he would have been put down twice before even playing college basketball. Also had a vertical jump of about 6 inches due to those injuries. I'm not even sure how much of an exaggeration that is. Despite that, was one of the great lunch pail players of all times for any school and managed to have a lengthy pro career despite limitations based upon smart play and prodigious use of his ass - the way I and most old schoolers were taught. I doubt any 2 of our current guys have logged half as much gym time.
3) Glover, at about 6'4" held his own against the best centers in college basketball. My favorite moment was him throwing around Jake Voskuhl like a rag doll. The guy had Bruce Lee strength. That is to say even stronger than he looked. This went along with the smarts and upper body mass. For a guy with a huge upper body also ran the floor very well, great passer and low mistakes.

Getting back to the so many levels thing - criticizing Singleton for pump faking. I don't know what to say about that. I guess you haven't been paying attention to St John's basketball the past two seasons when the pump fake has embarrassed our guys maybe a thousand times? Do you simply no like smart basketball? Probably one of those guys that is critical of the current #1 team in the country and reigning NCAA Champion who have been mockingly called "Pump Fake U"

 

[McGarry2]

What we need is a center even Jeff Allen would do

 

[we are sju]

Need to find an Anthony Glover type player. Guy was a beast down low.

You know this might be a unpopular stance but I do not have the same fond and fuzzy memories of Glover or Billy Singleton that most on here have. I think both those guys, though solid hard working players might have led the nation in getting their shots thrown back at them. Singleton had to pump fake 50 times to get a shot off.

For undersized power forwards give me Ty Grant and Lamont Middleton over those other two guys any day of the week.
BTW I think Marvin Clark can fit that role next year.

"unpopular" in the way that mental retardation is unpopular.

Both were overrated.
Grant and Middleton much better basketball players.

Say what?

List of guys who played the 4 spot during their career here who I have seen play that are better than Glover / Singleton in chronological order:
1. Russell
2. Berry
3. Shelton Jones
4.Jayson Williams-Played 4-Wersdann was 5
5. Roshown Mcleod
6. Ty Grant
7. Lamont Middleton
8. Charles Minlend
9. Ron Artest-Played the 4
10. Lamont Hamilton
11. Mo Harkless
12. Jakar Sampson
13. Dom Pointer
*14. Forgot Brownlee
Somewhere between 15-18 would be Glover, Singleton, Burrell and Jeff Allen

 

[we are sju]

Of the four, now 5 guys mentioned all were laudable players for us. these three are a cut above. :

1) Grant, best single season with the most impact of any of the guys mentioned. Could have potentially beaten anyone without his injury. Totally disregarded by Fraschilla but when given the chance shined under new coach.
2) Singleton the greatest talent of the bunch and one of the greatest talents to ever play for St Johns but had two career ending injuries before ever suiting up for St Johns so we saw only a pretty role specific player. In horse racing terms he would have been put down twice before even playing college basketball. Also had a vertical jump of about 6 inches due to those injuries. I'm not even sure how much of an exaggeration that is. Despite that, was one of the great lunch pail players of all times for any school and managed to have a lengthy pro career despite limitations based upon smart play and prodigious use of his ass - the way I and most old schoolers were taught. I doubt any 2 of our current guys have logged half as much gym time.
3) Glover, at about 6'4" held his own against the best centers in college basketball. My favorite moment was him throwing around Jake Voskuhl like a rag doll. The guy had Bruce Lee strength. That is to say even stronger than he looked. This went along with the smarts and upper body mass. For a guy with a huge upper body also ran the floor very well, great passer and low mistakes.

Getting back to the so many levels thing - criticizing Singleton for pump faking. I don't know what to say about that. I guess you haven't been paying attention to St John's basketball the past two seasons when the pump fake has embarrassed our guys maybe a thousand times? Do you simply no like smart basketball? Probably one of those guys that is critical of the current #1 team in the country and reigning NCAA Champion who have been mockingly called "Pump Fake U"

Wasn't mocking him. Hurt his knee gained weight and had to be extremely crafty to get a shot off. He pumped faked, or at 6-6 with no leaping ability his shot got blocked. Which it did a lot anyway a lot. If Williams didn't get hurt he was coming off the bench. Again I don't dislike him or Glover but we have had much better big men.

 

[SJU1512]

Clearly our 3 and possibly our 4 best players are playing their first year of college hoops. We need 3 and possibly 4 more like them.

Hopefully Simon and Clark are 2. Add 2 more, hopefully lose none or maximum 1 we already have and see natural improvement from them, and we could see a sizeable jump next year. From there we might be in a position to add a few/lose a few each year, but right now we need another talent inflow.

Eventually I'd love and I'm sure most would to get to a model like X where you're selective and mix elite talent with 4 year guys and there's not so much pressure on every year because the program is running on a stable plane and a little year to year volatility doesn't bother everyone.

But right now we just need guys who can play, flat out, and if suddenly we have 8 or 9 guys like Lovett/Ponds/Ahmend/Owens instead of 4 we'll have an easier time getting there and can start worrying about the particulars later.

 

[ras]

The problem is you can't count on talented kids staying 4 years anymore. Even kids who probably won't sniff the pros. My concern is we have two really dynamic guards. We could really be decent and maybe lay the groundwork to move forward if we bring in some adequate bigs to compliment them. I think Clark will help but he is not enough. My worry is that we won't get quality bigs in time to actually play with the two guards, then you are just starting over again and again and again.

Basically playing the "long game" might not work. Don't know what alternative is though honestly.

The alternative is being Kentucky and we know that's not happening.

The freshmen guards are great, but if Mullin's chances of success rests solely on their staying four years they should fire him now. What he needs to do is develop continuity of personnel, balance the roster, implement a plausible system and instill a winning culture. That's how Butler and Xavier are successful every year. That's why Lou was successful every year. SJU does not have the budget or the facilities or probably even the will to beat the big boy$ at their own game.

In an ideal situation, if you are not Kentucky, classes would be balanced . You would have 2 talented players at each position. I.E. One a Fosh,and one a junior . This way the Frosh isn't thrown into the fire and if the junior leaves early , the following year the soph would take his place. Or if the jr. stays another year and graduates than a junior will take his place. We are not there yet. but hopefully will get there. It does take time when starting from scratch.

 

[paultzman]

WASJU showing flu ridden Paul not a speck of mercy.
[attachment]image-79.jpeg[/attachment]

 

[Ray Morgan]

The problem is you can't count on talented kids staying 4 years anymore. Even kids who probably won't sniff the pros. My concern is we have two really dynamic guards. We could really be decent and maybe lay the groundwork to move forward if we bring in some adequate bigs to compliment them. I think Clark will help but he is not enough. My worry is that we won't get quality bigs in time to actually play with the two guards, then you are just starting over again and again and again.

Basically playing the "long game" might not work. Don't know what alternative is though honestly.

The alternative is being Kentucky and we know that's not happening.

The freshmen guards are great, but if Mullin's chances of success rests solely on their staying four years they should fire him now. What he needs to do is develop continuity of personnel, balance the roster, implement a plausible system and instill a winning culture. That's how Butler and Xavier are successful every year. That's why Lou was successful every year. SJU does not have the budget or the facilities or probably even the will to beat the big boy$ at their own game.

In an ideal situation, if you are not Kentucky, classes would be balanced . You would have 2 talented players at each position. I.E. One a Fosh,and one a junior . This way the Frosh isn't thrown into the fire and if the junior leaves early , the following year the soph would take his place. Or if the jr. stays another year and graduates than a junior will take his place. We are not there yet. but hopefully will get there. It does take time when starting from scratch.

The formula is not a mystery, especially to Mullin. The only question that matters is whether Mullin can convince, each season, a 4 star, and the occasional 5 star HS player to both stay local, and then choose SJU over Hall or Rutgers or UConn. Just pulled up an old Stephen A. Smith segment filmed right after the Mullin hire. He believed then that Mullin wouldn't pull it off, with the reasons unrelated to the hiring. Skip Bayless took the opposing view. One will be right by year 4 or 5, because that's all Mullin, just like the coaches before him, will get to show that the plan is working.There will be no more "trust the process" by then.

 

[we are sju]

WASJU showing flu ridden Paul not a speck of mercy.
[attachment]image-79.jpeg[/attachment]

Here is the thing about "lunch pail players": W/O star players they really don't help you. Charles Oakley w/o Patrick Ewing isn't Charles Oakley.
Singleton played with Jayson Williams, Sealy, Werdan and Boo Harvey.
Glover was fine as a Frosh when he played with Barkley, Postell and Bootsy. Then not so much until he got to ride shotgun for Mo Hatten.
My point is a Glover or Singleton will not cut it for us. We need a little bit better.