Season so far?

Did not see the Fordham game but, appears it was not a gem performance.

I'm wondering what the consensus of the Board is at this point in the season..

I'm beginning to think Harrison,Greene, Pointer, Garrett might have been overrated, despite being in the top 100.


Sampson, CO, appear to be the better players this year but are freshman and still adjusting.

It also looks like Lavin may be a super recruiter for good, not great talent and mediocre as a fundamental bench coach. The team so far, I think has been disappointing in losses to USF,BAYLOR, MURRAY STATE.

Even the wins, have not been impressive over HC, NJIT,FORDHAM, ETC.

The season in the BE will only get tougher.

While it's early, I think expectations were much higher than results so far.
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Joe I can't find fault with Lavin as a recruiter. Harkless, Obekpa, Harrison and Sampson are all great talents. Most of the other kids are good talents(a few are great athletes) who should develop in to good-very good 4 year players. Considering what he inherited, he's done a phenomenal job recruiting. As for his game coaching, remember he did not come here with a reputation of being a very good game coach.
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Lavin's rep as a game coach came from disgruntled ucla fans. His bad game coaching rep really isn't supported by the numbers at ucla.
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I have a number of friends from the west coast who are not UCLA fans but who are big time college basketball fans and who have watched the program very closely for many years. None felt strongly about Lavin's game coaching abilities. Just saying.
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People questionTom Coughlin as well...Bottom line, Lavin has been successful...and people forget we had our share of issues last year as well...we're a program on the come...that's all that counts
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Don't get me wrong, I love the guy and am thrilled we have him heading up our program. But that's not the point. I was simply commenting on my feelings about him as a game coach. Feelings I've had from his days at UCLA. And I am not a disgruntled UCLA fan.
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I think a lot of those feelings are based on a lot of innuendo going around at the time. I thought the same thing at the time because it seemed to be the going sentiment. Then I looked at his coaching numbers and was completely confused as to how a guy could be that successful and not be able to coach. It didn't make sense then and doesn't make sense now.

He was a young coach at the time, probably a little bit I'll-prepared for such a big job like UcLA. I have no doubt he made coaching mistakes. How many young coaches don't. He was then forever tagged as a bad game coach. I really think a lot of it was innuendo and carried far and wide. I don't think Lavin is John Beilein with X's and O's. If he can land talent like Boeheim, it doesn't matter. He just had to have s solid plan.
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I think about guys like Louie, Ray Meyers and Guy Lewis, to name a few. Coaches who all had very good success but were never considered amongst the brightest coaching minds in the game. I agree that you dont have to have a great coaching mind(swami, as you say) to be a successful coach, getting the horses is 90% of the battle. And having a solid point guard doesn't hurt either.
 
Louie, during his era, did the most he could with mostly good, not great talent... Meyer was much the same at a similar like school, DePaul.. The Vincentians never gave them very much to succeed with, in terms of money or a decent BB budget or facilities. They did ok though, mostly getting NY or Chicago kids to stay home..

When Louie had great talent in 1985, the best team SJU ever put on the Court, he wasn't able to counter the strategy employed by JT2 in the BE finals or NCAA SEMIS..The box and one on Mullin could have easily been thwarted if the ball went inside to Berry, who had proven he could get Ewing in foul trouble.

1985 was also about luck, none of it going SJU'S WAY. The semis could have had us playing Memphis and G'town playing Nova. Who's to say what could have happened in that scenario? Nova LOST TO US 3 TIMES THAT YEAR.

For years many thought Boeheim could not Coach.. Actually, he's a exceptionally great HOF Coach.. Who could get kids to play BB in the winters of Syracuse on a regular basis... Plus he taught them his system of zone defense and a team offense that usually gets everyone involved.. Year after year, Boeheim's teams are always contenders in the BE and Nationally.. And, unlike Cal, he doesn't get top 5 players, except Carmelo for 1 year..It would be interesting to see Boeheim Coaching this current SJU team.. You always know what your going to see from a Boeheim team, whether they be freshman or sophs or seniors.

I'm not comparing Boeheim to Lavin because their resumes are not comparable, at this point..

So the college game isn't just about talent, it's what you do with it..Recruiting is 1 dimension of the game, playing the games is the other.

I'm hoping we see this team improve its weaknesses. They have the ability to win but, will they?
 
There is no issue with the talent level. We are a little thin up front because the Sanchez situation is taking both Sanchez and Gift out of the equation. Obekpa is too busy blocking shots to be boxing out and rebounding. That wouldn't be an issue if there was somebody doing the grunt work behind him, but there isn't. In the Fordham game Canty killed us because nobody picked him up when Obekpa was out challenging shots. Either Obekpa has to stay home more, or the team defensive concept has to improve.

The issue I see is that the team does not play together on either end of the floor. There are a ton of pieces out there, but they haven't been put into clearly defined roles, and it seems as though they don't fit together yet. I think there are a number of reasons for that. One is youth. One is that at least one player is more concerned with showcasing himself for the NBA than with being a team player. One is that there are perhaps too many players, and most of them get significant minutes, which can blur the roles and hurt chemistry on the floor. And one is the coaching philosophy, which appears to be geared towards "out-athleting" other teams, getting out in transition and scoring easy baskets, which leaves the team out of its comfort level in the halfcourt.

All of these things are fixable. Experience will help. Branch becoming eligible may help if it turns out that he is the sort of point guard / leader that can pull the team together and create some better chemistry on the floor. Once the Branch and Sanchez situations are resolved, possibly a clear rotation will develop and roles will be identified.

There's enough talent to work with, but somebody has to do the job of molding it into a team, as opposed to a bunch of talented individuals. Will be interesting to see if that happens.
 
There is no issue with the talent level. We are a little thin up front because the Sanchez situation is taking both Sanchez and Gift out of the equation. Obekpa is too busy blocking shots to be boxing out and rebounding. That wouldn't be an issue if there was somebody doing the grunt work behind him, but there isn't. In the Fordham game Canty killed us because nobody picked him up when Obekpa was out challenging shots. Either Obekpa has to stay home more, or the team defensive concept has to improve.

The issue I see is that the team does not play together on either end of the floor. There are a ton of pieces out there, but they haven't been put into clearly defined roles, and it seems as though they don't fit together yet. I think there are a number of reasons for that. One is youth. One is that at least one player is more concerned with showcasing himself for the NBA than with being a team player. One is that there are perhaps too many players, and most of them get significant minutes, which can blur the roles and hurt chemistry on the floor. And one is the coaching philosophy, which appears to be geared towards "out-athleting" other teams, getting out in transition and scoring easy baskets, which leaves the team out of its comfort level in the halfcourt.

All of these things are fixable. Experience will help. Branch becoming eligible may help if it turns out that he is the sort of point guard / leader that can pull the team together and create some better chemistry on the floor. Once the Branch and Sanchez situations are resolved, possibly a clear rotation will develop and roles will be identified.

There's enough talent to work with, but somebody has to do the job of molding it into a team, as opposed to a bunch of talented individuals. Will be interesting to see if that happens.
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Agree with almost all of this. Hard to mold a team into a cohesive unit that has no upperclassmen. I've been saying the same thing about our rebounding issues. We have no power forward to "stay home" while Obekpa is challenging. He can't do it all.

Lavin has built the team to out-athlete other teams, but make no mistake. The goal is to look a lot more like we did 2 years ago where we control tempo for 40 minutes. A team that runs others into the ground when we can, but utilizes the shot clock effectively for good shots when we don't. Also a team that defends like the Duke game 2 years ago. We are helter skelter too often this year, but I thought we really looked good in the South Carolina game. We need to look like that a lot more.
 
We are helter skelter too often this year, but I thought we really looked good in the South Carolina game. We need to look like that a lot more.
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South Carolina had no players. I was at that game. They played like they were wearing cement sneakers. Can't take too much out of that game.
 
Personally I'm okay with the way the season is going so far. I was expecting about 9-3 going in to Big East play. I figured a loss to Murray State and Baylor with one other slip up along the way. Shouldn't have been surprised it was San Francisco. Despite St. John's not being a successful program in recent years, when you go play a school like USF in their building and you're a Big East team you're going to get their best shot. That gym won't be as loud as it was for that game until Gonzaga comes in. It's a tough spot for a young team.

Like most of you, I'm in the camp where I think Branch will cure a lot of backcourt woes for us. But here are my biggest issues approaching Big East play:

-A lot of this roster is comprised of similar type players. At 6-6 to 6-8 they probably blocked a lot of shots in high school. Guys like Sampson, Pointer, Garrett and Balamou have to learn to trust Obekpa to alter or block the shot when he's in there. It seems way to many times the three guys closest to the penetrator are up trying to block the shot. We give up way too many uncontested threes because of this and we're never in position to rebound.

-I don't think you can really win consistently going with a 10 man rotation. Right now we have 8 guys averaging over 10 minutes a game, a need to get Marc more shots and guy coming who we hope can hog minutes as the true PG we really need. I know C. Jones has already started to be marginalized but I think he falls out of the rotation and as crazy as it sounds since he's our third best scorer on an offensively challenged team but I think Phil Greene's minutes need to be cut in half. He'd be a nice piece off the bench to spell both Harrison and Branch at times.

-It's been well documented here but the free throw shooting drives me nuts.
 
[ We have all first or 2nd year players.
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ok I know we`re still young and still learning the college game. Still though they should atleast win 17 games after winning 13 last year with all first year players. Guess we gotta take baby steps, ok cool. So anything under 17 wins is a failure to me. I`d think everyone here would agree that they should be able to atleast win 17 games no???

But next year no excuses, they`ll have Juniors and sophmores, and don`t say oh but they don`t have seniors. 17 this year which would be a 4 win improvement so another 4 next year which would be 21.

Now with that said. If Sanchez can suit up then I reserve the right to change my mind as I think he could put up huge number and open other players up because he`ll get double team.

The last 2 games just got me so disappointed. I really thought that we`d be up atleast 10 vs fordham at halftime and win by 17-20pnts, but we struggled against them.
 
[ We have all first or 2nd year players.
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ok I know we`re still young and still learning the college game. Still though they should atleast win 17 games after winning 13 last year with all first year players. Guess we gotta take baby steps, ok cool. So anything under 17 wins is a failure to me. I`d think everyone here would agree that they should be able to atleast win 17 games no???

But next year no excuses, they`ll have Juniors and sophmores, and don`t say oh but they don`t have seniors. 17 this year which would be a 4 win improvement so another 4 next year which would be 21.

Now with that said. If Sanchez can suit up then I reserve the right to change my mind as I think he could put up huge number and open other players up because he`ll get double team.

The last 2 games just got me so disappointed. I really thought that we`d be up atleast 10 vs fordham at halftime and win by 17-20pnts, but we struggled against them.
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I'm with you. I've said on all boards the tournament should be the goal and its a disappointment if they don't make it.
 
I still think we have the talent to be a tourney team. Branch back soon and in a perfect world Sanchez as well. We need to get things together and start playing well.

Lawman, regardless of who was on the court, our energy and focus were MUCH better in the South Carolina game. I think it is archived on espn3. Look at our defense, transition ans especially motion on offense. Different team in that game.
 
I still think we have the talent to be a tourney team. Branch back soon and in a perfect world Sanchez as well. We need to get things together and start playing well.

Lawman, regardless of who was on the court, our energy and focus were MUCH better in the South Carolina game. I think it is archived on espn3. Look at our defense, transition ans especially motion on offense. Different team in that game.
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And therefore the reason for the frustration, and the negativity. No doubt we have the talent to be a tourney team,but do we have the team to be a tourney team? It's a team game. We all look at the individual pieces: One of the best scorers in school history, the best shot blocker in school history, a candidate for Big East Rookie of the Year who will be in the NBA in a year or two. Almost all top 100 recruits. A real find in Balamou. The pieces don't yet fit. It's like a jigsaw puzzle, where you try to squeeze the thick ended piece into the thin opening. A two guard playing point. A PF playing center. And so on. Branch and Sanchez will fit perfectly, and maybe complete the puzzle. Without Sanchez, we are still missing a piece.
 
I still think we have the talent to be a tourney team. Branch back soon and in a perfect world Sanchez as well. We need to get things together and start playing well.

Lawman, regardless of who was on the court, our energy and focus were MUCH better in the South Carolina game. I think it is archived on espn3. Look at our defense, transition ans especially motion on offense. Different team in that game.
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And therefore the reason for the frustration, and the negativity. No doubt we have the talent to be a tourney team,but do we have the team to be a tourney team? It's a team game. We all look at the individual pieces: One of the best scorers in school history, the best shot blocker in school history, a candidate for Big East Rookie of the Year who will be in the NBA in a year or two. Almost all top 100 recruits. A real find in Balamou. The pieces don't yet fit. It's like a jigsaw puzzle, where you try to squeeze the thick ended piece into the thin opening. A two guard playing point. A PF playing center. And so on. Branch and Sanchez will fit perfectly, and maybe complete the puzzle. Without Sanchez, we are still missing a piece.
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Nicely put!
 
I think the addition of Branch will be significant if he is as advertised (a true point). But, rebounding is an Achilles heal that I can't see improving without Sanchez. The staff's decision to RS GG without Sanchez is a mystery or big miscalculation on their part. Maybe should have red-shirted Jones instead.
 
Louie, during his era, did the most he could with mostly good, not great talent... Meyer was much the same at a similar like school, DePaul.. The Vincentians never gave them very much to succeed with, in terms of money or a decent BB budget or facilities. They did ok though, mostly getting NY or Chicago kids to stay home..

When Louie had great talent in 1985, the best team SJU ever put on the Court, he wasn't able to counter the strategy employed by JT2 in the BE finals or NCAA SEMIS..The box and one on Mullin could have easily been thwarted if the ball went inside to Berry, who had proven he could get Ewing in foul trouble.

1985 was also about luck, none of it going SJU'S WAY. The semis could have had us playing Memphis and G'town playing Nova. Who's to say what could have happened in that scenario? Nova LOST TO US 3 TIMES THAT YEAR.

For years many thought Boeheim could not Coach.. Actually, he's a exceptionally great HOF Coach.. Who could get kids to play BB in the winters of Syracuse on a regular basis... Plus he taught them his system of zone defense and a team offense that usually gets everyone involved.. Year after year, Boeheim's teams are always contenders in the BE and Nationally.. And, unlike Cal, he doesn't get top 5 players, except Carmelo for 1 year..It would be interesting to see Boeheim Coaching this current SJU team.. You always know what your going to see from a Boeheim team, whether they be freshman or sophs or seniors.

I'm not comparing Boeheim to Lavin because their resumes are not comparable, at this point..

So the college game isn't just about talent, it's what you do with it..Recruiting is 1 dimension of the game, playing the games is the other.

I'm hoping we see this team improve its weaknesses. They have the ability to win but, will they?
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The 85-86 team was pretty talented as well, even without Chris. Going 31-5(14-2 in the Big east) but got knocked out in the 2nd round of the tourney. Louie did as well as could be expected with the talent he had during the regular season. He almost always seemed to come up short in the Tourney, being upset more often then not.
 
Came accross this long but somewhat very accurate analysis of Lavin, the team and the program.

http://crackbillionair.wordpress.com/2012/12/08/st-johns-growing-pains-and-poor-grooming/
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Rambling
Long
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Find a new barber?
Testicular cancer?
Retaining Polee?
there were several freshmen point guards who stayed relatively local that are better players than Branch. really? This guy's handle fits him.
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I commend you for getting all of that out of the article. My head hit the keyboard during the 2nd paragraph.
 
I still think we have the talent to be a tourney team. Branch back soon and in a perfect world Sanchez as well. We need to get things together and start playing well.

Lawman, regardless of who was on the court, our energy and focus were MUCH better in the South Carolina game. I think it is archived on espn3. Look at our defense, transition ans especially motion on offense. Different team in that game.
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And therefore the reason for the frustration, and the negativity. No doubt we have the talent to be a tourney team,but do we have the team to be a tourney team? It's a team game. We all look at the individual pieces: One of the best scorers in school history, the best shot blocker in school history, a candidate for Big East Rookie of the Year who will be in the NBA in a year or two. Almost all top 100 recruits. A real find in Balamou. The pieces don't yet fit. It's like a jigsaw puzzle, where you try to squeeze the thick ended piece into the thin opening. A two guard playing point. A PF playing center. And so on. Branch and Sanchez will fit perfectly, and maybe complete the puzzle. Without Sanchez, we are still missing a piece.
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So, my question is for Ray M and MCN, and I'm not trying to be a jerk by asking this,
but why is it obvious that we have the talent?

Yes, we have top 100 recruits, but at what point are you considered only as good as you're playing?
Sure, Dom was the 25th ranked recruit in his class according to ESPN... but when do we stop considering him an elite talent and consider him the 5pts and 4rebounds a game player that we've seen now for a year and a half?

It's still early in the season, and I'm not writing anyone off.
But if we're not playing well (and I don't think we are lately), then there's only logically a couple reasons.
1) We simply haven't "gelled" yet, and we have good individual pieces, but poor chemistry.
2) The coaching isn't good.
3) Maybe some of our players aren't as good as we thought they were.

I agree with you both that I thought we had a lot of talent on this team. But, I'm not sure that's obvious anymore.
At best, there's hidden talent. And alternatively, there could be less talent than we thought.

And to whoever responds with, "the sky isn't falling", "don't panic", I don't think it is either, and I didn't say that.
But when do we stop measuring guys on the talent we think they have, and judge them by what they're actually doing?
 
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