Rasheem Dunn Waiver Denied (APPEAL WON)

I do wonder if Dunn was made fully aware of the risks of what he was doing here. The NCAA rules are crystal clear that a coaching change is not reason for a hardship waiver. You commit to the school, not the coach. And yes, he sat out a year already. But if you’re Cleveland State, the year that Dunn sat out now represents a year in which you burned a scholarship and got nothing in return. That’s why there has to be a rule against players bolting to any other school after the year is up with no consequences.

Don’t get me wrong: I think this whole situation sucks. But I don’t see how this could have been viewed as a slam dunk case for SJU and I hope the kid was well warned ahead of time.
 
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[quote="P Simmons" post=361207]I do wonder if Dunn was made fully aware of the risks of what he was doing here. The NCAA rules are crystal clear that a coaching change is not reason for a hardship waiver. You commit to the school, not the coach. And yes, he sat out a year already. But if you’re Cleveland State, the year that Dunn sat out now represents a year in which you burned a scholarship and got nothing in return. That’s why there has to be a rule against players bolting to any other school after the year is up with no consequences.

Don’t get me wrong: I think this whole situation sucks. But I don’t see how this could have been viewed as a slam dunk case for SJU and I hope the kid was well warned ahead of time.[/quote]

He can’t be the first person who has sat out a whole year only to have coach let go and then to transfer.
 
[quote="P Simmons" post=361207]I do wonder if Dunn was made fully aware of the risks of what he was doing here. The NCAA rules are crystal clear that a coaching change is not reason for a hardship waiver. You commit to the school, not the coach. And yes, he sat out a year already. But if you’re Cleveland State, the year that Dunn sat out now represents a year in which you burned a scholarship and got nothing in return. That’s why there has to be a rule against players bolting to any other school after the year is up with no consequences.

Don’t get me wrong: I think this whole situation sucks. But I don’t see how this could have been viewed as a slam dunk case for SJU and I hope the kid was well warned ahead of time.[/quote]

July 15. How many coaches get fired in the middle of the summer?
 
From SB Nation, April 2019:
The NCAA carved out a narrow circumstance in which non-grad transfers wouldn’t even need a waiver to play immediately.
If an incoming player has enrolled in summer school, and then that player’s head coach leaves the school before the start of the fall term, the player can transfer freely.

Most coaches aren’t moving around in the summer, with most sports out of season, but there are a few late surprises every year. And under this new rule, if, for instance, Ole Miss’ head football coach got ousted in July after phone records tied him to an escort service, then every incoming freshman would be allowed to go elsewhere and play.

The NCAA’s initial press release on the matter suggested that all players on the roster would get this privilege if the coach left in summer. It’s not clear why they shouldn’t, given that those players likely agreed to play for the same head coach an incoming freshman did.

A few things:
1) Was Rasheem in Summer School?
2) Is he viewed an incoming player in a sit-out year?
3) Does the fact that he sat out and his coach was fired in July amount to beans?

Dunno, but damn this seems egregious and unfair if he's not granted immediate eligibility.
 
[quote="P Simmons" post=361207]I do wonder if Dunn was made fully aware of the risks of what he was doing here. The NCAA rules are crystal clear that a coaching change is not reason for a hardship waiver. You commit to the school, not the coach. And yes, he sat out a year already. But if you’re Cleveland State, the year that Dunn sat out now represents a year in which you burned a scholarship and got nothing in return. That’s why there has to be a rule against players bolting to any other school after the year is up with no consequences.

Don’t get me wrong: I think this whole situation sucks. But I don’t see how this could have been viewed as a slam dunk case for SJU and I hope the kid was well warned ahead of time.[/quote]

Very good points. I was PMing with a well respected board member earlier and said to him: what if the Cleveland AD saw his basketball program going down the tubes and in an attempt to salvage the season, got all the kids together and said "hey, we really want you and need you here. If you choose to leave, you are doing so at your own risk. I will not be supportive of anyone who chooses to leave"? Then Dunn chose to leave anyway knowing the risks and knowing that he would not have the support of the CS AD. Not saying that's what happened, just saying that as much as I hate the end result, until I know the full story I'll wait before I pass judgment.
 
[quote="Monte" post=361230][quote="P Simmons" post=361207]I do wonder if Dunn was made fully aware of the risks of what he was doing here. The NCAA rules are crystal clear that a coaching change is not reason for a hardship waiver. You commit to the school, not the coach. And yes, he sat out a year already. But if you’re Cleveland State, the year that Dunn sat out now represents a year in which you burned a scholarship and got nothing in return. That’s why there has to be a rule against players bolting to any other school after the year is up with no consequences.

Don’t get me wrong: I think this whole situation sucks. But I don’t see how this could have been viewed as a slam dunk case for SJU and I hope the kid was well warned ahead of time.[/quote]

Very good points. I was PMing with a well respected board member earlier and said to him: what if the Cleveland AD saw his basketball program going down the tubes and in an attempt to salvage the season, got all the kids together and said "hey, we really want you and need you here. If you choose to leave, you are doing so at your own risk. I will not be supportive of anyone who chooses to leave"? Then Dunn chose to leave anyway knowing the risks and knowing that he would not have the support of the CS AD. Not saying that's what happened, just saying that as much as I hate the end result, until I know the full story I'll wait before I pass judgment.[/quote]

Good points all around.
I default to Rasheem's predicament/ He abstained from transferring despite 7 players at one point entering the portal (1 key guy returned), he sat out a year to play for Felton and apparently wanted to fulfill that promise.
No matter what the AD may have said, his decision to fire Felton in mid-July was the deal breaker for Dunn.
I'm totally guessing but these circumstances 'may be' at the core of St. John's' appeal--that Rasheem stayed through the turmoil because of his loyalty to Felton and when Felton didn't leave on his own but was terminated by Garrett, that was it. And these details may be factors the NCAA wasn't fully aware of when it made what I believe to be an odious decision.
Only the Shadow knows, lol.
We shall see how this unfolds.
 
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Maybe rules need to be changed which favor the students say he signed with the school because if the coach coach leaves for a better job why should players suffer after the give up a yr
 
A light went off in my head and I just looked at the Cleveland State roster for this season and I know their senior pg very well. He is from Montreal and guess which AAU program he played for before going south of the border ?
At my upcoming meeting with the heads of the program I will apprise them of this very unpleasant situation.
 
[quote="Chicago Days" post=361213]From SB Nation, April 2019:
The NCAA carved out a narrow circumstance in which non-grad transfers wouldn’t even need a waiver to play immediately.
If an incoming player has enrolled in summer school, and then that player’s head coach leaves the school before the start of the fall term, the player can transfer freely.

Most coaches aren’t moving around in the summer, with most sports out of season, but there are a few late surprises every year. And under this new rule, if, for instance, Ole Miss’ head football coach got ousted in July after phone records tied him to an escort service, then every incoming freshman would be allowed to go elsewhere and play.

The NCAA’s initial press release on the matter suggested that all players on the roster would get this privilege if the coach left in summer. It’s not clear why they shouldn’t, given that those players likely agreed to play for the same head coach an incoming freshman did.

A few things:
1) Was Rasheem in Summer School?
2) Is he viewed an incoming player in a sit-out year?
3) Does the fact that he sat out and his coach was fired in July amount to beans?

Dunno, but damn this seems egregious and unfair if he's not granted immediate eligibility.[/quote]

That new rule is specifically for "incoming freshmen." It is meant to protect an incoming freshman enrolling in the summer and then having a coach fired and then having never even been enrolled for the fall if that player transfers he was still subject to sitting a year. Now that player will be free to transfer before the fall and still be eligible. Again this was to address what happened to incoming Ohio St recruit Braxton Beverly in 2017 who decided to transfer in June after Thad Matta had been fired. He needed like 4 appeals before he got a waiver.

Keep in mind guys if this rule applied to Dunn he wouldn't need a waiver to begin with? That was the whole point in this rule so a player in this situation would not need to apply for an exception. Because by rule he would be eligible. But he's not. It does not apply to him.
 
[quote="fordham96" post=361236][quote="Chicago Days" post=361213]From SB Nation, April 2019:
The NCAA carved out a narrow circumstance in which non-grad transfers wouldn’t even need a waiver to play immediately.
If an incoming player has enrolled in summer school, and then that player’s head coach leaves the school before the start of the fall term, the player can transfer freely.

Most coaches aren’t moving around in the summer, with most sports out of season, but there are a few late surprises every year. And under this new rule, if, for instance, Ole Miss’ head football coach got ousted in July after phone records tied him to an escort service, then every incoming freshman would be allowed to go elsewhere and play.

The NCAA’s initial press release on the matter suggested that all players on the roster would get this privilege if the coach left in summer. It’s not clear why they shouldn’t, given that those players likely agreed to play for the same head coach an incoming freshman did.

A few things:
1) Was Rasheem in Summer School?
2) Is he viewed an incoming player in a sit-out year?
3) Does the fact that he sat out and his coach was fired in July amount to beans?

Dunno, but damn this seems egregious and unfair if he's not granted immediate eligibility.[/quote]

That new rule is specifically for "incoming freshmen." It is meant to protect an incoming freshman enrolling in the summer and then having a coach fired and then having never even been enrolled for the fall if that player transfers he was still subject to sitting a year. Now that player will be free to transfer before the fall and still be eligible. Again this was to address what happened to incoming Ohio St recruit Braxton Beverly in 2017 who decided to transfer in June after Thad Matta had been fired. He needed like 4 appeals before he got a waiver.

Keep in mind guys if this rule applied to Dunn he wouldn't need a waiver to begin with? That was the whole point in this rule so a player in this situation would not need to apply for an exception. Because by rule he would be eligible. But he's not. It does not apply to him.[/quote]

SB Nation referred to a carve-out for non-graduate players in addition to incoming freshman but I'll be damned if I can find it in the new NCAA transfer regs, so I concede you're right--which leaves me befuddled that such a discrepancy exists following the NCAA's transfer 'reforms'.
I continue to base my fading optimism that Rasheem's case embodies anomalies that our August Hoop Authority Gods may deign to make his case an exception on the following: 1-year sit-out, program imploding, leaves when the coach he committed to is fired in July, would have 1 year of eligibility left IF the rule is applied to its letter.
We shall see.
 
Someone mentioned that it is the NCAA’s view that a player signs with a school and not a coach. Also someone said that CSU used a scholarship on him and if he transfers without having to sit out players could transfer at will anytime a coach is fired. If this is the case why does it matter when the coach was fired. Wouldn’t Dunn be stuck anyway unless CSU releases him?

I don’t agree with CSU not advocating for an unhappy player after the coach is fired but trying to understand.the facts here.
 
This is the problem with granting waivers to rules. Once you give one out, everyone feels they deserve one for whatever reason.

This system, like much of what the NCAA has set up as rules for its members is broken, badly.

We know they will be glacial in their pace to fix their own problems without legal motivation. Just look at how their stance on athletes being able to profit from their image flipped 180 degrees just a few weeks after California passed legislation that forced them to deal with the issue.

I think every athlete denied a waiver to play immediately should band together in a class action suit against the NCAA for discrimination. I'd bet their stance changes when they have to explain to a federal judge why football players are free to transfer without being forced to sit out a year, and other athletes are not.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=361151][quote="Making Plays" post=361147][quote="MarkRedman" post=361126]If nothing else, this hose job has united us and got St John's fans on the same page
Something that rarely happens
Petition has over 2,300 signatures per Zach
Great job by the Johnnies faithful!![/quote]

It's very impressive the unity that is being shown, fans are making the Cleveland State AD feel the heat on twitter as well, he's blocking a lot of people and trying to filter out responses to his tweets. When he was actively trying to block Dunn from getting a waiver he didn't imagine he'd receive this much backlash. It's honestly shameful that any AD would do this to a college kid, Cleveland State should be embarrassed and be doing whatever they can to right this situation, it's a horrible look to a school that already doesn't get the best recruits.

I just hope once the season starts next week if Dunn isn't eligible yet, people forget and just let it go, which is what I'm betting Cleveland State is banking on and why they are just being quiet and letting it die down.[/quote]

What is his Twitter? Are any recruits following him? The recruits are who should be targeted.[/quote]

Sorry for late reply, was a busy day yesterday.

Here's his twitter. He's blocked most of the St. John's fans that have been giving him heat.

https://twitter.com/scottmgarrett?lang=en
 
[quote="Valgoth" post=361148][quote="Making Plays" post=361147][quote="MarkRedman" post=361126]If nothing else, this hose job has united us and got St John's fans on the same page
Something that rarely happens
Petition has over 2,300 signatures per Zach
Great job by the Johnnies faithful!![/quote]

It's very impressive the unity that is being shown, fans are making the Cleveland State AD feel the heat on twitter as well, he's blocking a lot of people and trying to filter out responses to his tweets. When he was actively trying to block Dunn from getting a waiver he didn't imagine he'd receive this much backlash. It's honestly shameful that any AD would do this to a college kid, Cleveland State should be embarrassed and be doing whatever they can to right this situation, it's a horrible look to a school that already doesn't get the best recruits.

I just hope once the season starts next week if Dunn isn't eligible yet, people forget and just let it go, which is what I'm betting Cleveland State is banking on and why they are just being quiet and letting it die down.[/quote]

He underestimates this fan base....hell we are still pining for the return of the Indian mascot and the redmen name 30 years later. We don't forget.[/quote]

Glad to hear :) Because this doesn't need to be forgotten. That Cleveland State AD is a coward.
 
[quote="Chicago Days" post=361238][quote="fordham96" post=361236][quote="Chicago Days" post=361213]From SB Nation, April 2019:
The NCAA carved out a narrow circumstance in which non-grad transfers wouldn’t even need a waiver to play immediately.
If an incoming player has enrolled in summer school, and then that player’s head coach leaves the school before the start of the fall term, the player can transfer freely.

Most coaches aren’t moving around in the summer, with most sports out of season, but there are a few late surprises every year. And under this new rule, if, for instance, Ole Miss’ head football coach got ousted in July after phone records tied him to an escort service, then every incoming freshman would be allowed to go elsewhere and play.

The NCAA’s initial press release on the matter suggested that all players on the roster would get this privilege if the coach left in summer. It’s not clear why they shouldn’t, given that those players likely agreed to play for the same head coach an incoming freshman did.

A few things:
1) Was Rasheem in Summer School?
2) Is he viewed an incoming player in a sit-out year?
3) Does the fact that he sat out and his coach was fired in July amount to beans?

Dunno, but damn this seems egregious and unfair if he's not granted immediate eligibility.[/quote]

That new rule is specifically for "incoming freshmen." It is meant to protect an incoming freshman enrolling in the summer and then having a coach fired and then having never even been enrolled for the fall if that player transfers he was still subject to sitting a year. Now that player will be free to transfer before the fall and still be eligible. Again this was to address what happened to incoming Ohio St recruit Braxton Beverly in 2017 who decided to transfer in June after Thad Matta had been fired. He needed like 4 appeals before he got a waiver.

Keep in mind guys if this rule applied to Dunn he wouldn't need a waiver to begin with? That was the whole point in this rule so a player in this situation would not need to apply for an exception. Because by rule he would be eligible. But he's not. It does not apply to him.[/quote]

SB Nation referred to a carve-out for non-graduate players in addition to incoming freshman but I'll be damned if I can find it in the new NCAA transfer regs, so I concede you're right--which leaves me befuddled that such a discrepancy exists following the NCAA's transfer 'reforms'.
I continue to base my fading optimism that Rasheem's case embodies anomalies that our August Hoop Authority Gods may deign to make his case an exception on the following: 1-year sit-out, program imploding, leaves when the coach he committed to is fired in July, would have 1 year of eligibility left IF the rule is applied to its letter.
We shall see.[/quote]

The rule does not cover him trust me. Again if it did we wouldn't need to be talking about it.

The biggest case he has is others got a waiver it would seem with far less strength than his. But it is so arbitrary.

And guys remember the PORTAL no longer requires a release by the school. The PORTAL simply means the player needs to inform the school, usually the compliance person, and then within I think 48 hours his name goes into the portal and then can be contacted by any team.

There is no formal release anymore. So it is not fair to say the AD already released him so why doesn't he support a waiver. He never released him because it is no longer a requirement. Which everyone agreed was a good thing because it empowers the player and not the school. That was whole point of the portal.
 
I was just reading an article in the Louisville Courier Journal about Eli Wright's transfer. It stated that he would have two years of eligibility left with Western Kentucky after playing two years with Miss. State and redshirting the 2018-2019 season with SJU. I wonder if that assumed he could play immediately with Western Kentucky. I know he has since left the WK program but have not been able to find anything as to why he left.

[URL]https://www.courier-journal.co...i-wright-transfers-wku-basketball/2029336001/[/URL]
 
[quote="NCJohnnie" post=361249]I was just reading an article in the Louisville Courier Journal about Eli Wright's transfer. It stated that he would have two years of eligibility left with Western Kentucky after playing two years with Miss. State and redshirting the 2018-2019 season with SJU. I wonder if that assumed he could play immediately with Western Kentucky. I know he has since left the WK program but have not been able to find anything as to why he left.

[URL]https://www.courier-journal.co...i-wright-transfers-wku-basketball/2029336001/[/URL][/quote] I was trying to look up the same thing. Wright also left after sitting w a coaching change. But SJU would not have blocked Eli from playing w/o sitting out.
 
[quote="Moose" post=361211][quote="P Simmons" post=361207]I do wonder if Dunn was made fully aware of the risks of what he was doing here. The NCAA rules are crystal clear that a coaching change is not reason for a hardship waiver. You commit to the school, not the coach. And yes, he sat out a year already. But if you’re Cleveland State, the year that Dunn sat out now represents a year in which you burned a scholarship and got nothing in return. That’s why there has to be a rule against players bolting to any other school after the year is up with no consequences.

Don’t get me wrong: I think this whole situation sucks. But I don’t see how this could have been viewed as a slam dunk case for SJU and I hope the kid was well warned ahead of time.[/quote]

He can’t be the first person who has sat out a whole year only to have coach let go and then to transfer.[/quote]

I did a quick search and found one similar case — and it is not a good omen for Dunn.

- Kid plays for 3 years at Louisville, where Richard Pitino is assistant coach to his father. The younger Pitino takes the head coaching job at FIU and the kid follows him there.

- Kid sits out his first year at FIU according to the transfer rules.

- After the one year is up, Pitino leaves FIU to take the head coaching job at Minnesota.

- Kid wants to follow Pitino to Minnesota and applies for an NCAA waiver – on the basis that he’s already sat out a year and the coach he wanted to play for is now gone. Plus FIU is now banned from postseason play because of stuff that happened before Pitino arrived. So it’s a complete sh*tshow at FIU.

- NCAA denies the waiver. Minneosta appeals and NCAA denies the appeal.

[URL]https://www.foxsports.com/othe...eem-buckles-appeal-to-play-for-gophers-090313[/URL]
 
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[quote="P Simmons" post=361254][quote="Moose" post=361211][quote="P Simmons" post=361207]I do wonder if Dunn was made fully aware of the risks of what he was doing here. The NCAA rules are crystal clear that a coaching change is not reason for a hardship waiver. You commit to the school, not the coach. And yes, he sat out a year already. But if you’re Cleveland State, the year that Dunn sat out now represents a year in which you burned a scholarship and got nothing in return. That’s why there has to be a rule against players bolting to any other school after the year is up with no consequences.

Don’t get me wrong: I think this whole situation sucks. But I don’t see how this could have been viewed as a slam dunk case for SJU and I hope the kid was well warned ahead of time.[/quote]

He can’t be the first person who has sat out a whole year only to have coach let go and then to transfer.[/quote]

I did a quick search and found one similar case — and it is not a good omen for Dunn.

- Kid plays for 3 years at Louisville, where Richard Pitino is assistant coach to his father. The younger Pitino takes the head coaching job at FIU and the kid follows him there.

- Kid sits out his first year at FIU according to the transfer rules.

- After the one year is up, Pitino leaves FIU to take the head coaching job at Minnesota.

- Kid wants to follow Pitino to Minnesota and applies for an NCAA waiver – on the basis that he’s already sat out a year and the coach he wanted to play for is now gone. Plus FIU is now banned from postseason play because of stuff that happened before Pitino arrived. So it’s a complete sh*tshow at FIU.

- NCAA denies the waiver. Minneosta appeals and NCAA denies the appeal.

[URL]https://www.foxsports.com/othe...eem-buckles-appeal-to-play-for-gophers-090313[/URL][/quote]

Transfer and waiver landscape has changed quite a bit since then. Solid info though.
 
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