(POST-GAME) @Seton Hall (Pru Ctr), Sat. Dec. 29, 8:30p, FSN / 570AM

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[quote="Logen" post=310384]Officiating in all sports has become a joke since the advent of instant replay. So a good experienced team puts that game away, plain and simple. Yes, it was an inexplicably bad decision to reward a team for officials mistakes and the clock explanation is just comical but if you keep playing team ball for 40 minutes instead of 35 it’s not a one point game. Also did not catch who was “guarding” Reynolds but someone please explain why anyone would sag in the middle with 3 seconds left. You either attack the ball hard on a double or you face guard your man.[/quote]
Think it was Trimble who should have subbed out for Williams.

Also, we should have done everything we could to force the inbounds pass away from the basket

EDIT: it was Herron. Still don’t think Trimble belonged in game.
 
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[quote="Class of 72" post=310456][quote="Marillac" post=310437][quote="MarkRedman" post=310425][quote="Ray Morgan" post=310418]The team did not blow the game. What did everyone think? Seton Hall would lay down on their home court in the Big east opener against an undefeated rival? The team was exhausted, primarily because of what everyone should have seen all along. No size, and the one guy we have with size and bulk doesn't rebound. Fighting bigger bodies wiped out the legs of the starters. Still, they battled back and deserved the win. The Heron and Ponds miss were the only 2 of the night. We were killed on the offensive glass, giving up 15 rebounds to a team that doesn't rebound. This team has talent, but was let down by a staff that couldn't find a big, serviceable body in 4 years.[/quote]


We do have a big serviceable body who is injured and unable to play
If Heron hadn't become available late in the spring, we would have had another one
It's hard to pass on a player as talented as Heron so I don't blame the staff for that decision[/quote]

Injured? Give me a break. He has no heart, there is a difference. He wasn't injured enough to miss pregame shootaround or to dance around on the sidelines. He'll be on the court against Marquette in less than 48 hours.[/quote]

This loss had zero to do with Keita or the lack of height. In fact, the loss had everything to do with our shortest player playing less than intelligent basketball in the last 10 minutes. I love Shamorie but he shot 2-13 and 1-6 from three with 5 costly turnovers that cost us 10 points. His passing and steals in the first half were wiped out by utter incompetent decision making in the second half.
And, not to absolve the coaches of any blame in the loss, why did Trimble end up playing 18 minutes to Greg Williams 9 minutes? Williams clearly was quicker and guarded better but Mullin and company were seemingly asleep at the wheel when they kept Trimble in during crunch minutes where he struggled to guard the quicker pirates.[/quote]

Try again. They had 15 offensive rebounds and had a layup drill in the paint. Did you watch the game?
 
[quote="Amaseinyourface" post=310450][quote="MJDinkins" post=310438][quote="Monte" post=310367]I think I was so furious at our guys for the previous 8 minutes, that what the refs did to us at the end almost seemed secondary to me. We didn’t deserve to win.[/quote]

That sounds similar to my thinking as well.[/quote]

Wonder if LJ feels that way[/quote]

Your point (which I already know)?
 
[quote="Marillac" post=310459][quote="Logen" post=310449][quote="Class of 72" post=310433][quote="IDRAFT" post=310423][quote="Class of 72" post=310416][quote="sjc88" post=310404][quote="Paultzman" post=310398]Fran F
“To clarify on the final inbounds play by Seton Hall. St. John’s was about to steal the ball when the official ruled the play dead. On Inadvertent whistle, if there is no possession by either team, it goes to the “possession arrow.” I believe St. John’s had the arrow.”[/quote]
So what you are saying is that it is even worse than I imagined as the rules were not applied correctly. Great. Officials don't know the rules.[/quote]

Correct in that these incompetent refs didn't know what the fck they were doing but our staff obviously didn't have a clue either. Thus none of our coaches had the tools to vigorously challenge the call. This is yet another reason that the AD MUST push for adding an experienced COLLEGE assistant to this staff. Mitch must return to special advisor role.[/quote]

This is a good point. SJU staff was WAY too passive while this was incorrectly sorted out.[/quote]

They weren't passive! They were clueless! There are no college coaches on this team with the knowledge to argue the obvious. This would have not been called with a coach K, Jim B or any other respected college coach. Fraschilla caught it immediately.[/quote]

Except it was not an inadvertent whistle and therefore nothing to argue or go to the possession arrow. FF as usual clueless. Inadvertent whistle is one blown when there is no call to made, it was a legit whistle, just an anticipated horrible call since Figeuroa was not out of bounds. So instead of being able to use replay to rectify the mistake, the officials had to start tap dancing to try and save face because inexplicably out of bounds plays can only be reviewed if two players are involved. So they came up with the asinine clock explanation to wipe out the steal play completely and give SH the old “do over.”[/quote]

False. An inadvertent whistle has ALWAYS been used as a catch-all to cleanup bad calls as a last resort when a make-up call will not do. This is also done regularly in football.

You don't really think an indadvetsnt whistle is just a ref blowing the whistle on accident do you?[/quote]

A whistle blown as a make up call is the direct opposite of an inadvertent whistle as it is a planned action. I suggest you look up the definition of inadvertent.
 
[quote="MJDinkins" post=310463][quote="Amaseinyourface" post=310450][quote="MJDinkins" post=310438][quote="Monte" post=310367]I think I was so furious at our guys for the previous 8 minutes, that what the refs did to us at the end almost seemed secondary to me. We didn’t deserve to win.[/quote]

That sounds similar to my thinking as well.[/quote]

Wonder if LJ feels that way[/quote]

Your point (which I already know)?[/quote]

(That play he made won the game. The two plays actually.)
 
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[quote="Mean Gene" post=310394]If we don’t beat Marquette everyone can put those NCAA pipe dreams to bed. This thing will spiral if we don’t win that game because then we play Georgetown and we have absolutely no answer for Govan if Nzei was able to do what he did and then off to Villanova. Fughedaboutit!!!![/quote]
Gimme a break...yes we lost to a team that we are better than and outplayed for most of the game. But, they are a good team playing on their home court and in front of their fans. I expected to win and am disappointed as %##& but not going to put the balls away. Team has too much talen5 and heart.

Also, We did some very good things tonight as well. Mullin’s defensive strategy on Powell worked well. Simon, LJF and Williams basically face guarded him most of night.
 
[quote="Amaseinyourface" post=310465][quote="MJDinkins" post=310463][quote="Amaseinyourface" post=310450][quote="MJDinkins" post=310438][quote="Monte" post=310367]I think I was so furious at our guys for the previous 8 minutes, that what the refs did to us at the end almost seemed secondary to me. We didn’t deserve to win.[/quote]

That sounds similar to my thinking as well.[/quote]

Wonder if LJ feels that way[/quote]

Your point (which I already know)?[/quote]

(That play he made won the game. The two plays actually.)[/quote]

Figueroa made a heckuva play, which should've essentially ended the game in our favor. I was ticked at the refs, no doubt. But I was also ticked with how we played down the stretch. Maybe, Figueroa should be getting into teammate's ass by how the team played during the last 5 1/2 minutes. And, the game would've likely been in hand by the time there were three seconds remaining.
 
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[quote="Monte" post=310457]Nice D by Heron on that last possession. WTF was he doing?


[attachment=596]5C416276-E6B1-4C8E-BA2A-CD51BAB2492A.jpeg[/attachment][/quote]

It’s weird to me, he’s got good fundamentals, he works his ass off, seems like a really good teammate and you can tell he’s trying to be a leader and a motivator out there but I have not been impressed with his smarts. 13 games with a brand new team is not the end of the story though of course, so we will see.
 
ave Krupinski
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38m38 minutes ago
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Replying to @franfraschilla @KevinGQuinn
And the kid who hit the game winner subbed in after the refs botched it. Illegal sub- unreal.

Are you kidding me, I read more and more and more, and this game is making me more crazy.
Can we atleast get those SOB REFS FIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
[quote="MJDinkins" post=310467][quote="Amaseinyourface" post=310465][quote="MJDinkins" post=310463][quote="Amaseinyourface" post=310450][quote="MJDinkins" post=310438][quote="Monte" post=310367]I think I was so furious at our guys for the previous 8 minutes, that what the refs did to us at the end almost seemed secondary to me. We didn’t deserve to win.[/quote]

That sounds similar to my thinking as well.[/quote]

Wonder if LJ feels that way[/quote]

Your point (which I already know)?[/quote]

(That play he made won the game. The two plays actually.)[/quote]

Figueroa made a heckuva play, which should've essentially ended the game in our favor. I was ticked at the refs, no doubt. But I was also ticked with how we played down the stretch. Maybe, Figueroa should be getting into teammate's ass by how the team played during the last 5 1/2 minutes. And, the game would've likely been in hand by the time there were three seconds remaining.[/quote]

I think we can all agree as a team we played like crap down the stretch. But still in my opinion we deserved to win. And that’s a win against a BE team on the road that would have checked a lot of boxes, instead it’s ammunition. Either way we have to get better.
 
[quote="oldschool Redmen" post=310469]ave Krupinski
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@DaveKrupinski
38m38 minutes ago
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Replying to @franfraschilla @KevinGQuinn
And the kid who hit the game winner subbed in after the refs botched it. Illegal sub- unreal.

Are you kidding me, I read more and more and more, and this game is making me more crazy.
Can we atleast get those SOB REFS FIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

I don't see how that sub is illegal. Time did come off the clock, after everything, so it should be OK. You can't sub a guy back in when no time goes off, but they did take time off, so the sub was legal. Whether the sub should have actually been legal is another matter altogether.
 
Because I’m a glutton for punishment, I just watched the final play of the game again a few times. I have no clue what Heron was doing on D. He started to pick up one SH player(Powell I think) who was moving towards half court, and then he just backed off him and floated around the foul circle covering no one. No one put a body on Reynolds till it was to late. Keep in mind that even after the refs screwed us, we still had a chance to win the game if we had done what we were supposed to on defense.
 
[quote="Marillac" post=310462][quote="Class of 72" post=310456][quote="Marillac" post=310437][quote="MarkRedman" post=310425][quote="Ray Morgan" post=310418]The team did not blow the game. What did everyone think? Seton Hall would lay down on their home court in the Big east opener against an undefeated rival? The team was exhausted, primarily because of what everyone should have seen all along. No size, and the one guy we have with size and bulk doesn't rebound. Fighting bigger bodies wiped out the legs of the starters. Still, they battled back and deserved the win. The Heron and Ponds miss were the only 2 of the night. We were killed on the offensive glass, giving up 15 rebounds to a team that doesn't rebound. This team has talent, but was let down by a staff that couldn't find a big, serviceable body in 4 years.[/quote]


We do have a big serviceable body who is injured and unable to play
If Heron hadn't become available late in the spring, we would have had another one
It's hard to pass on a player as talented as Heron so I don't blame the staff for that decision[/quote]

Injured? Give me a break. He has no heart, there is a difference. He wasn't injured enough to miss pregame shootaround or to dance around on the sidelines. He'll be on the court against Marquette in less than 48 hours.[/quote]

This loss had zero to do with Keita or the lack of height. In fact, the loss had everything to do with our shortest player playing less than intelligent basketball in the last 10 minutes. I love Shamorie but he shot 2-13 and 1-6 from three with 5 costly turnovers that cost us 10 points. His passing and steals in the first half were wiped out by utter incompetent decision making in the second half.
And, not to absolve the coaches of any blame in the loss, why did Trimble end up playing 18 minutes to Greg Williams 9 minutes? Williams clearly was quicker and guarded better but Mullin and company were seemingly asleep at the wheel when they kept Trimble in during crunch minutes where he struggled to guard the quicker pirates.[/quote]

Try again. They had 15 offensive rebounds and had a layup drill in the paint. Did you watch the game?[/quote]

OK, I'll try again. We are one of the worst offensive rebounding teams in Division One. Somewhere around 350. Did you realistically expect that against a bigger and the most talented team we have faced all season that our offensive rebounding would be better than the Pirates? We were outrebounded by 16 which is no surprise given that our only big plays 18 feet from the basket. In fact, you labeled him our center/power forward. Clark is ineffective with the ball in his hands as we again witnessed tonight. He turned the ball over FOUR times in key possessions and committed an unforgivable charging foul that benched him. No one on this team rebounds so your being incredulous over the rebounding margin is sophomoric. Most of us have been saying we were going to pay a price for putting all our eggs in Keita’s basket. Welcome to reality.
This was supposed to be the first game Mullin was going to unveil his secret Big East playbook. Guess what? It was the SOS with Shamorie making the decisions on the court in crunch time. Unfortunately, Slick Stunk up the place with showboat plays and 2-13 shooting topped off by 5 key turnovers.
Yes, there was a bad call at the end but Shamorie Ponds had already done the damage by that point. Now he has to try to regain some respect against the best guard in the Big East on New Year's day. Another performance like tonight and he can kiss his first round dreams away.
 
[quote="SJU61982" post=310471][quote="oldschool Redmen" post=310469]ave Krupinski
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@DaveKrupinski
38m38 minutes ago
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Replying to @franfraschilla @KevinGQuinn
And the kid who hit the game winner subbed in after the refs botched it. Illegal sub- unreal.

Are you kidding me, I read more and more and more, and this game is making me more crazy.
Can we atleast get those SOB REFS FIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

I don't see how that sub is illegal. Time did come off the clock, after everything, so it should be OK. You can't sub a guy back in when no time goes off, but they did take time off, so the sub was legal. Whether the sub should have actually been legal is another matter altogether.[/quote]

It went from 3.9 to 3.1 seconds after the review.
 
[quote="Marillac" post=310474][quote="SJU61982" post=310471][quote="oldschool Redmen" post=310469]ave Krupinski
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@DaveKrupinski
38m38 minutes ago
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Replying to @franfraschilla @KevinGQuinn
And the kid who hit the game winner subbed in after the refs botched it. Illegal sub- unreal.

Are you kidding me, I read more and more and more, and this game is making me more crazy.
Can we atleast get those SOB REFS FIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

I don't see how that sub is illegal. Time did come off the clock, after everything, so it should be OK. You can't sub a guy back in when no time goes off, but they did take time off, so the sub was legal. Whether the sub should have actually been legal is another matter altogether.[/quote]

It went from 3.9 to 3.1 seconds after the review.[/quote]

Right, and that makes the sub legal. Of course, we should have had the ball anyway...
 
[quote="Amaseinyourface" post=310468][quote="Monte" post=310457]Nice D by Heron on that last possession. WTF was he doing?


[attachment=596]5C416276-E6B1-4C8E-BA2A-CD51BAB2492A.jpeg[/attachment][/quote]

It’s weird to me, he’s got good fundamentals, he works his ass off, seems like a really good teammate and you can tell he’s trying to be a leader and a motivator out there but I have not been impressed with his smarts. 13 games with a brand new team is not the end of the story though of course, so we will see.[/quote]



This is the video attached to every article on the game I've seen so far, with no mention of the "inadvertent whistle". If it wasn't for that damn ref every article would have a video of LJF saving the game.
 
Some people also don't know what Keita will even actually bring to the table. He hardly played during his one season with the Gamecocks, so one can't even talk about his play at South Carolina. He also has a propensity to float around the perimeter on offense based on his high school highlights.

I know there's a very, small sample so far with him in a Johnnies uniform. During his limited duty, we know he can foul (he fouled out in 10 minutes of action in Game 1). All any of us know at the moment is he'll bring added depth.

Time will tell what he truly can bring to the table.
 
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[quote="MJDinkins" post=310478]Some people also don't know what Keita will even actually bring to the table. He hardly played during his one season with the Gamecocks, so one can't even talk about his play at South Carolina. He also has a propensity to float around the perimeter on offense based on his high school highlights.

I know there's a very, small sample so far with him in a Johnnies uniform. During his limited duty, we know he can foul (he fouled out in 10 minutes of action in Game 1). All any of us know at the moment is he'll bring added depth.

Time will tell what he truly can bring to the table.[/quote]

His height and 5 fouls alone will help. Woulda kept Clark in etc. I still think he’s probably a pretty talented kid. Just didn’t have a chance to show it this far.
 
[quote="Logen" post=310464][quote="Marillac" post=310459][quote="Logen" post=310449][quote="Class of 72" post=310433][quote="IDRAFT" post=310423][quote="Class of 72" post=310416][quote="sjc88" post=310404][quote="Paultzman" post=310398]Fran F
“To clarify on the final inbounds play by Seton Hall. St. John’s was about to steal the ball when the official ruled the play dead. On Inadvertent whistle, if there is no possession by either team, it goes to the “possession arrow.” I believe St. John’s had the arrow.”[/quote]
So what you are saying is that it is even worse than I imagined as the rules were not applied correctly. Great. Officials don't know the rules.[/quote]

Correct in that these incompetent refs didn't know what the fck they were doing but our staff obviously didn't have a clue either. Thus none of our coaches had the tools to vigorously challenge the call. This is yet another reason that the AD MUST push for adding an experienced COLLEGE assistant to this staff. Mitch must return to special advisor role.[/quote]

This is a good point. SJU staff was WAY too passive while this was incorrectly sorted out.[/quote]

They weren't passive! They were clueless! There are no college coaches on this team with the knowledge to argue the obvious. This would have not been called with a coach K, Jim B or any other respected college coach. Fraschilla caught it immediately.[/quote]

Except it was not an inadvertent whistle and therefore nothing to argue or go to the possession arrow. FF as usual clueless. Inadvertent whistle is one blown when there is no call to made, it was a legit whistle, just an anticipated horrible call since Figeuroa was not out of bounds. So instead of being able to use replay to rectify the mistake, the officials had to start tap dancing to try and save face because inexplicably out of bounds plays can only be reviewed if two players are involved. So they came up with the asinine clock explanation to wipe out the steal play completely and give SH the old “do over.”[/quote]

False. An inadvertent whistle has ALWAYS been used as a catch-all to cleanup bad calls as a last resort when a make-up call will not do. This is also done regularly in football.

You don't really think an indadvetsnt whistle is just a ref blowing the whistle on accident do you?[/quote]

A whistle blown as a make up call is the direct opposite of an inadvertent whistle as it is a planned action. I suggest you look up the definition of inadvertent.[/quote]

What are you saying? There are multiple remedies to a blown call or bad whistle. The most common is a make up call--but that can't be used with 3 seconds left now can it?

Every whistle is deliberate unless the ref is having a seizure. This ref anticipated an outcome and was wrong. This is precisely why the inadvertent whistle call exists! It has been applied much more broadly than that as well to cleanup mistakes. This really isn't debatable.
 
[quote="MJDinkins" post=310478]Some people also don't know what Keita will even actually bring to the table. He hardly played during his one season with the Gamecocks, so one can't even talk about his play at South Carolina. He also has a propensity to float around the perimeter on offense based on his high school highlights.

I know there's a very, small sample so far with him in a Johnnies uniform. During his limited duty, we know he can foul (he fouled out in 10 minutes of action in Game 1). All any of us know at the moment is he'll bring added depth.

Time will tell what he truly can bring to the table.[/quote]

You are correct on all counts. The added depth and size however is what we sorely are lacking. Trimble and Dixon bring neither in Big East play as was evident tonight so if Mullin uses him to our advantage he will be a very important part of the team. I said in the pregame discussion that if one of our starting 5 had a bad game we could lose by 3 and unfortunately that player tonight was Shamorie Ponds. Horrible shooting and flippant three point attempts in the second half against the best team we played to date was embarrassing to him. It may play on his mind in a couple of days when he has to defend the best guard in the conference.
 
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