Next Coach?

What does he need to do to be retaine/extended? Win 1 NCAA game? 2? He's gone regardless?
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Win at least 1 in the tourney (especially after the two previous blowout losses) and score score high caliber recruits (Diallo, Mussini...), Lavin cant win with mid-tier players and even with top recruits it might be another 3-4 yrs before we see another tourney.
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To be successful at St. John's you need a coach that can recruit. If he is a good coach and can't get the players we will never ever see an NCAA bid again. Hall of Fame coach Carnesecca was not a very good coach. He was lucky to have coached at a time when NYC produced a dozen high level D1 every year. He would have been an abject failure in today's college basketball climate.
If this program can't recruit nationally they will be relegated to the bottom of the league.
I am not married to Lavin as head coach but some of the names put forth scare me.
As those that just want Lavin out regardless because of his salary then I submit we do not belong in the Big East.
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Its been proven that this program can recruit locally, nationally, and even internationally. That's not the issue. And we should not need all 4 and 5 star kids in order to be successful. We need to be able to recruit effectively, spot under the radar talent and to be able to coach the kids that are recruited. See Wisconsin, Virgina and Gonzaga as examples of teams that are doing just fine in spite of the fact that they are not stacked with 5 star talent.
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As, austour stated, "coaches" get players not the school. I don't believe any coach can come here and just suddenly grab blue-chip talent from anywhere in the country.

No, you don't need all 4 and 5 star kids in order to be successful, but most of the school's who consistently get those type of players are the one's who usually sustain success and win championships. The schools you've named are solid programs (Virginia just came back, as they were down for several years), but they generally fall short when tournament time rolls around. I'm sure there are posters here who will get tired of being successful in the regular season only to continue to fall on our faces in the NCAA Tournament.

Some folks here would've feasted on Louie.
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Agreed that not just any coach can come here and get 4 and 5 star talent, but that is pretty much true almost anywhere. I just don't buy that the school and the city are an impediment to us recruiting locally, nationally and internationally. In all honesty if this site existed 30 years ago, I probably would have been at the forefront of criticizing Louie, in spite of how much I loved him. His in game coaching definitely left something to be desired. And its human nature to be frustrated when your team does not go as far as you expect, regardless of how well they do. Having said that, I long for the days of us being a perennial top 25 team.
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Human nature indeed! But we as St. John's fans have an inflated sense of our history over the past 20 or so years. The last time we were perennial was the first two Jarvis seasons when we had elite talents like Artest and Barkley. That was 1998-99.
Now we are having a discussion about the next coach as if this coach has been a complete failure in comparison to our past. Well amigo, our past has mostly been forgetable. This coach had us ranked this year in spite of all the flaws we have discussed repeatedly. He had us ranked in his first season with players used to be doormats in the old and bigger Big East. He has won 20+ games in 3 of the 4 years on the bench. This will be our 2nd NCAA bid in his 4 years on the bench and we had one NIT.
We won 21 games thus far and may get 2 top 50 recruits and a few 3 star players to rebuild next year.
Yet, we have this overblown sense of ourselves that shmucks like Ricky Smith think Mad Max Masiello would return us to some embellished past glory.
Not matter who coaches at St. John's many will never be satisfied with the results.
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Maybe I'm delusional, but with the right coach at the helm I still firmly believe that we can once again be a perennial top 25/NCAA Tourney team. When the day comes that I stop believing that is possible, that's the day I find another team to root for. If the school isnt willing to make a commitment to having a successful basketball program, then I'm not willing to make a commitment to follow them.
 
After sitting through the semifinals last night, it's clear that

1) Nova is very well coached
2) Georgetown is very well coached - they didn't lose, they ran out of clock, and Xavier is thankful for that.
3) Providence is very well coached.

These are coaches that rally their guys to be patient and intense even when losing. The Providence team stood toe to toe with Nova, and helped by a phantom foul, Nova was likely to escape with a win. Couldn't see us at full strength doing the same. The same goes for Georgetown's roaring comeback as a flagrant 2 where they dominated action thereafter.
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And as mentioned Lavin is 5 and 3 against those coaches.
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You can cite all the stats out of context you want; all I know is again I am watching other teams play deep into the BE tournament while we were not even remotely competitive on our home court against a team we had beaten twice. Lose, OK, no disgrace in losing to Providence at all, but not showing up, in the last BE tournament for 4 seniors who have never won a game in the tourney? Horrible.
The program continues to reek of instability with another "benching" as it were of Jordan, just when it seemed he was turning the corner. And oh yeah, even if we get some of the recruits we are earmarking extremely late in this years cycle we are still essentially starting over 5 years into Lavin's regime. And if we don't get those recruits, well, I don't want to see it at all but I'm sure you guys will be able to put a positive spin on it regardless; me, not so much.
I understand Louie was far from the greatest coach in history but I will take a blue collar team that competes their tails off every game over what I have seen over the last 5 years any day. And yes, I do know Lavin's record is light years better than Norms, but it still falls woefully short of wwhat I was expecting out of him.
 
After sitting through the semifinals last night, it's clear that

1) Nova is very well coached
2) Georgetown is very well coached - they didn't lose, they ran out of clock, and Xavier is thankful for that.
3) Providence is very well coached.

These are coaches that rally their guys to be patient and intense even when losing. The Providence team stood toe to toe with Nova, and helped by a phantom foul, Nova was likely to escape with a win. Couldn't see us at full strength doing the same. The same goes for Georgetown's roaring comeback as a flagrant 2 where they dominated action thereafter.
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And as mentioned Lavin is 5 and 3 against those coaches.
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You can cite all the stats out of context you want; all I know is again I am watching other teams play deep into the BE tournament while we were not even remotely competitive on our home court against a team we had beaten twice. Lose, OK, no disgrace in losing to Providence at all, but not showing up, in the last BE tournament for 4 seniors who have never won a game in the tourney? Horrible.
The program continues to reek of instability with another "benching" as it were of Jordan, just when it seemed he was turning the corner. And oh yeah, even if we get some of the recruits we are earmarking extremely late in this years cycle we are still essentially starting over 5 years into Lavin's regime. And if we don't get those recruits, well, I don't want to see it at all but I'm sure you guys will be able to put a positive spin on it regardless; me, not so much.
I understand Louie was far from the greatest coach in history but I will take a blue collar team that competes their tails off every game over what I have seen over the last 5 years any day. And yes, I do know Lavin's record is light years better than Norms, but it still falls woefully short of wwhat I was expecting out of him.
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Agree with all except the last clause beginning with "but". We have gotten exactly the same Lavin that you saw at UCLA, just without the same players.

A leopard doesn't change its spots.
 
Programs don't recruit/get recruits. Coaches get recruits.

Coaches also have to coach said recruits, of course, but need to get them on the floor first.
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Agreed. My comments were directed at those who keeping saying how hard it is to recruit to our school and to our city. To that I say "bullcrap!"
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Yeah, that's those who has their head up Lavins ass, who believes that he's the only one that can recruit nationally at SJU. It is 100% BS.
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Hey, I don't want to rag on you, because I don't mind occasional mild profanity, especially if the aftermath of a horrible loss. Then it's almost cathartic to get it all out of our systems, like kicking the dog. But can you try to tone it down in casual postings? Thanks
 
After sitting through the semifinals last night, it's clear that

1) Nova is very well coached
2) Georgetown is very well coached - they didn't lose, they ran out of clock, and Xavier is thankful for that.
3) Providence is very well coached.

These are coaches that rally their guys to be patient and intense even when losing. The Providence team stood toe to toe with Nova, and helped by a phantom foul, Nova was likely to escape with a win. Couldn't see us at full strength doing the same. The same goes for Georgetown's roaring comeback as a flagrant 2 where they dominated action thereafter.
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And as mentioned Lavin is 5 and 3 against those coaches.
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You can cite all the stats out of context you want; all I know is again I am watching other teams play deep into the BE tournament while we were not even remotely competitive on our home court against a team we had beaten twice. Lose, OK, no disgrace in losing to Providence at all, but not showing up, in the last BE tournament for 4 seniors who have never won a game in the tourney? Horrible.
The program continues to reek of instability with another "benching" as it were of Jordan, just when it seemed he was turning the corner. And oh yeah, even if we get some of the recruits we are earmarking extremely late in this years cycle we are still essentially starting over 5 years into Lavin's regime. And if we don't get those recruits, well, I don't want to see it at all but I'm sure you guys will be able to put a positive spin on it regardless; me, not so much.
I understand Louie was far from the greatest coach in history but I will take a blue collar team that competes their tails off every game over what I have seen over the last 5 years any day. And yes, I do know Lavin's record is light years better than Norms, but it still falls woefully short of wwhat I was expecting out of him.
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Agree with all except the last clause beginning with "but". We have gotten exactly the same Lavin that you saw at UCLA, just without the same players.

A leopard doesn't change its spots.
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Bingo
 
And while we are on the subject of UCLA, I thought they were foolish to let Howland go and even more foolish to hire Alford. Looks like UCLA will be home for the NCAAs. Sort of vindicates Howland's work there.
 
After sitting through the semifinals last night, it's clear that

1) Nova is very well coached
2) Georgetown is very well coached - they didn't lose, they ran out of clock, and Xavier is thankful for that.
3) Providence is very well coached.

These are coaches that rally their guys to be patient and intense even when losing. The Providence team stood toe to toe with Nova, and helped by a phantom foul, Nova was likely to escape with a win. Couldn't see us at full strength doing the same. The same goes for Georgetown's roaring comeback as a flagrant 2 where they dominated action thereafter.
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And as mentioned Lavin is 5 and 3 against those coaches.
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You can cite all the stats out of context you want; all I know is again I am watching other teams play deep into the BE tournament while we were not even remotely competitive on our home court against a team we had beaten twice. Lose, OK, no disgrace in losing to Providence at all, but not showing up, in the last BE tournament for 4 seniors who have never won a game in the tourney? Horrible.
The program continues to reek of instability with another "benching" as it were of Jordan, just when it seemed he was turning the corner. And oh yeah, even if we get some of the recruits we are earmarking extremely late in this years cycle we are still essentially starting over 5 years into Lavin's regime. And if we don't get those recruits, well, I don't want to see it at all but I'm sure you guys will be able to put a positive spin on it regardless; me, not so much.
I understand Louie was far from the greatest coach in history but I will take a blue collar team that competes their tails off every game over what I have seen over the last 5 years any day. And yes, I do know Lavin's record is light years better than Norms, but it still falls woefully short of wwhat I was expecting out of him.
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I will say, having watched round 2, that all teams playing in the semis came to play (which we didn't). But I wouldn't characterize winning 1 game going deep into the tournament.. It's a 3 game tournament (outside of the qualifying round), and the hot team usually bangs out 3 wins and that's it.

Just as a mild question, of which the cantankerous always misinterpret, isn't Coach Carnesecca affectionately referred to as "Looie" and not "Louie"?

Just a question: Other than the flawed nirvana of 1985-86, how many times did Carnesecca have one than one NBA level player on his roster? I think much less than we would believe. Considering no one could leave early then, I have a feeling that our program would have been in the dumper back then if George Johnson, Chris Mullin, Mark Jackson, Mel Davis, and others could have been one or two and done back then, as Sampson and Harkless have been for Lavin.

For my money, Carnesecca was no better an X's and O's guy than Lavin.
 
After sitting through the semifinals last night, it's clear that

1) Nova is very well coached
2) Georgetown is very well coached - they didn't lose, they ran out of clock, and Xavier is thankful for that.
3) Providence is very well coached.

These are coaches that rally their guys to be patient and intense even when losing. The Providence team stood toe to toe with Nova, and helped by a phantom foul, Nova was likely to escape with a win. Couldn't see us at full strength doing the same. The same goes for Georgetown's roaring comeback as a flagrant 2 where they dominated action thereafter.
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And as mentioned Lavin is 5 and 3 against those coaches.
Click to expand...

You can cite all the stats out of context you want; all I know is again I am watching other teams play deep into the BE tournament while we were not even remotely competitive on our home court against a team we had beaten twice. Lose, OK, no disgrace in losing to Providence at all, but not showing up, in the last BE tournament for 4 seniors who have never won a game in the tourney? Horrible.
The program continues to reek of instability with another "benching" as it were of Jordan, just when it seemed he was turning the corner. And oh yeah, even if we get some of the recruits we are earmarking extremely late in this years cycle we are still essentially starting over 5 years into Lavin's regime. And if we don't get those recruits, well, I don't want to see it at all but I'm sure you guys will be able to put a positive spin on it regardless; me, not so much.
I understand Louie was far from the greatest coach in history but I will take a blue collar team that competes their tails off every game over what I have seen over the last 5 years any day. And yes, I do know Lavin's record is light years better than Norms, but it still falls woefully short of wwhat I was expecting out of him.
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I will say, having watched round 2, that all teams playing in the semis came to play (which we didn't). But I wouldn't characterize winning 1 game going deep into the tournament.. It's a 3 game tournament (outside of the qualifying round), and the hot team usually bangs out 3 wins and that's it.

Just as a mild question, of which the cantankerous always misinterpret, isn't Coach Carnesecca affectionately referred to as "Looie" and not "Louie"?

Just a question: Other than the flawed nirvana of 1985-86, how many times did Carnesecca have one than one NBA level player on his roster? I think much less than we would believe. Considering no one could leave early then, I have a feeling that our program would have been in the dumper back then if George Johnson, Chris Mullin, Mark Jackson, Mel Davis, and others could have been one or two and done back then, as Sampson and Harkless have been for Lavin.

For my money, Carnesecca was no better an X's and O's guy than Lavin.
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As an in-game coach Lou was no better. However his teams were always prepared and always played hard and within a system. As for kids leaving early, yes those kids would have likely left early, but so to would have myriad other kids we played against. So IMO Lou would have had to deal with the same issues as all the other coaches of the time.
 
Ben Howland
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Agree he merits another head coaching stint. In his Big East tenure he really did well & maximized the talent he had. His defensive schemes were also fun to watch. Solid candidate.
 
I still pose this question to the Lavin haters (since none have answered)... What were you expecting Lavin to do taking over a team where he literally had to start from scratch? I see that the years he's been on the bench with his own players, he won 17 games and went to the NIT second round. Won 20 games and lost in NIT first round. Won 21 games and will be coaching in the NCAAs with yet to be determined results. Now, please tell me what we should expect under the same exact circumstances. Please reference another coach who under the same exact circumstances either exceeded what Lavin has or has even matched what he has done on essentially 3 years. Thank you
 
After sitting through the semifinals last night, it's clear that

1) Nova is very well coached
2) Georgetown is very well coached - they didn't lose, they ran out of clock, and Xavier is thankful for that.
3) Providence is very well coached.

These are coaches that rally their guys to be patient and intense even when losing. The Providence team stood toe to toe with Nova, and helped by a phantom foul, Nova was likely to escape with a win. Couldn't see us at full strength doing the same. The same goes for Georgetown's roaring comeback as a flagrant 2 where they dominated action thereafter.
Click to expand...


And as mentioned Lavin is 5 and 3 against those coaches.
Click to expand...

You can cite all the stats out of context you want; all I know is again I am watching other teams play deep into the BE tournament while we were not even remotely competitive on our home court against a team we had beaten twice. Lose, OK, no disgrace in losing to Providence at all, but not showing up, in the last BE tournament for 4 seniors who have never won a game in the tourney? Horrible.
The program continues to reek of instability with another "benching" as it were of Jordan, just when it seemed he was turning the corner. And oh yeah, even if we get some of the recruits we are earmarking extremely late in this years cycle we are still essentially starting over 5 years into Lavin's regime. And if we don't get those recruits, well, I don't want to see it at all but I'm sure you guys will be able to put a positive spin on it regardless; me, not so much.
I understand Louie was far from the greatest coach in history but I will take a blue collar team that competes their tails off every game over what I have seen over the last 5 years any day. And yes, I do know Lavin's record is light years better than Norms, but it still falls woefully short of wwhat I was expecting out of him.
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I will say, having watched round 2, that all teams playing in the semis came to play (which we didn't). But I wouldn't characterize winning 1 game going deep into the tournament.. It's a 3 game tournament (outside of the qualifying round), and the hot team usually bangs out 3 wins and that's it.

Just as a mild question, of which the cantankerous always misinterpret, isn't Coach Carnesecca affectionately referred to as "Looie" and not "Louie"?

Just a question: Other than the flawed nirvana of 1985-86, how many times did Carnesecca have one than one NBA level player on his roster? I think much less than we would believe. Considering no one could leave early then, I have a feeling that our program would have been in the dumper back then if George Johnson, Chris Mullin, Mark Jackson, Mel Davis, and others could have been one or two and done back then, as Sampson and Harkless have been for Lavin.

For my money, Carnesecca was no better an X's and O's guy than Lavin.
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But everyone would be playing under same conditions unless you think Patrick Ewing would have stayed 4 years. Maybe we would have won it all in 85 if Ewing hd left and Chris stayed. :)
 
From the early 80s on kids could leave early for the NBA. Jordan and Olajuwon left in 84 early and Big John was always threatening to have Ewing leave before 4 years. So Louie had to deal with that problem for a good part of his career.
As for the better game coach Lou hands down. He may never have won a game he shouldn't but his teams were well prepared and other than Niagra in 1984 he didn't loose games he was supposed to win.
 
I still pose this question to the Lavin haters (since none have answered)... What were you expecting Lavin to do taking over a team where he literally had to start from scratch? I see that the years he's been on the bench with his own players, he won 17 games and went to the NIT second round. Won 20 games and lost in NIT first round. Won 21 games and will be coaching in the NCAAs with yet to be determined results. Now, please tell me what we should expect under the same exact circumstances. Please reference another coach who under the same exact circumstances either exceeded what Lavin has or has even matched what he has done on essentially 3 years. Thank you
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Who cares. Let season play out & we'll see what SJU decision makers want to do. Perpetual back & forth means nothing.
 
I still pose this question to the Lavin haters (since none have answered)... What were you expecting Lavin to do taking over a team where he literally had to start from scratch? I see that the years he's been on the bench with his own players, he won 17 games and went to the NIT second round. Won 20 games and lost in NIT first round. Won 21 games and will be coaching in the NCAAs with yet to be determined results. Now, please tell me what we should expect under the same exact circumstances. Please reference another coach who under the same exact circumstances either exceeded what Lavin has or has even matched what he has done on essentially 3 years. Thank you
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He built the team from scratch yes. The problem is he's put himself in a situation where he basically has to do it again. That's not how it's supposed to be. You are supposed to build a program and keep bringing in talent so you don't have to build from scratch every 4 years. But a good run in the tournament and I think Lavin can rebuild successfully, so as paultz said let's see how this goes
 
O
Ben Howland
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Agree he merits another head coaching stint. In his Big East tenure he really did well & maximized the talent he had. His defensive schemes were also fun to watch. Solid candidate.
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If they get rid of SL he would be my choice. He fixed SL's last mistakes at Ucla and had a good run.
 
Ben Howland
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Agree he merits another head coaching stint. In his Big East tenure he really did well & maximized the talent he had. His defensive schemes were also fun to watch. Solid candidate.
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And if he's not interested there's always Jim Harrick, Walt Hazzard, John Farmer....... ;)
 
Posters have asked what our program should aspire to be, what type of coach, program, team should we have. How about Notre Dame as a model. They have been a model of consistency, balanced classes, post season play, fundamentally sound players that can shoot. For a football school Mike Brey has done a pretty good job there.
 
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