My apologies to team and staff

[quote="Room112" post=323691][quote="Moose" post=323637]Mike

I know what you're trying to do here but after just reading the game thread for the first time there is nothing there that is out of bounds TBH. While I personally wouldn't post while actually at a game, nothing in that thread was out of bounds as it accurately depicts what we all went thru watching yesterday. Yes some blamed staff, some blamed players. Everyone has a certain way they lean.[/quote]

I just find it interesting that people post about the staff being clueless/a total disaster etc during a game which we ended up winning vs a ranked team. People are crazy man.[/quote]

I saw more people posting about the players and lack of effort than Mullin yesterday. Just like certain posters don't like certain players some fans don't like Mullin. Worse to me ripping on college kids than a head coach IMO. Yankee fans didn't like Girardi and the Yankees won a lot of games under him. It's just the way it is.
 
[quote="fuchsia" post=323694]
Jarvis also inherited a group of starters who had a team offense built in from their time playing together at Riverside. Once that team graduated or went pro, no offense other than Marcus Hatten ever appeared for STJ under Jarvis.[/quote]

Very true. I think it was Eric Barkley who said that they rarely even practiced any offense. Jarvis coaching resume is full of riding a single player to success, from Ewing in high school to Yinka Dare and that short guard at GW to Hatten at SJU.
 
I see a lot of posters calling out fans for being fair weather pessimists, but in fairness I think that was a valid feeling during the first half. We were down by 19 points and looked awful in a game we were only 3.5 pt dogs in. Nova kept hitting open 3s, we couldn't hit foul shots, we had awful ball movement, terrible body language, etc. It was like a a highlight reel of our worst hits throughout the season.

Oh yeah, and that was after our last two awful MSG performances against teams we were favored to beat by 5-8 points.

As I said previously, I didn't post during the game, but it was really tough watching the first half and I regretted buying tickets until Simon's 3/4th court shot miraculously went in. When I go to games, of course I want to win but if we don't I just want to see a competitive game. It looked like we were going to have a historically bad game judging by our start. That to me is unacceptable when paying several hundred dollars to attend, especially if it is on a consistent basis.

I do agree we should try saving our Redmen criticism until the game is over, especially during home games. I'm guilty myself of doing that, but as we've seen with this team we often end up eating crow by the final buzzer. We probably would have a much worse record than we currently do if the players had the same mentality as our posters. They never give up, no matter the odds.
 
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[quote="Paul Massell" post=323679][quote="Marillac" post=323676]
Winning and not being caught cheating are not mutually exclusive. Norm was hired to win basketball games. He was a complete failure and this program is still recovering from his lasting impact. He wasn’t the choir boy people remember him as either.[/quote]

True about winning but you also need to give him an asterisk on the winning if you look at what he was left by Jarvis and still managed to bring in some high quality players. And also how nicely he paved the way for Lavin to come in with a bang. And looking at what Lavin left for Mullin, Roberts "lasting impact" was overall positive in Roberts' wake. Not sure you could say that about Jarvis or Lavin who both left things rock bottom despite winning with the previous coach's recruits.[/quote]

Wow, this took a turn I never could have envisioned, SJU fans defending Norm Roberts. This was Roberts record at Queens College before he was hired by SJU.

1991–92 6–21
1992–93 8–19
1993–94 4–23
1994–95 6–21

I guess he inherited a mess there too and couldn't turn it around in four years. Saying Roberts cant coach is sky is blue, water is wet analysis. God Bless anyone defeding his time at SJU, and I mean that, I'm not being snarky. You are a much more tolerant person than I am.
 
[quote="IDRAFT" post=323711]

Wow, this took a turn I never could have envisioned, SJU fans defending Norm Roberts. This was Roberts record at Queens College before he was hired by SJU.

1991–92 6–21
1992–93 8–19
1993–94 4–23
1994–95 6–21

I guess he inherited a mess there too and couldn't turn it around in four years. Saying Roberts cant coach is sky is blue, water is wet analysis. God Bless anyone defeding his time at SJU, and I mean that, I'm not being snarky. You are a much more tolerant person than I am.[/quote]

All I said was to put it into perspective in support of ghostzapper's points. He came into the shittiest spot in St Johns history and brought in some great players and left the program in better shape that made Lavin look good. He was not given that same opportunity nor was Mullin. Obviously Roberts was hired on the two premises that A) he was one of the best recruiters in the country and B ) his time after QC involved working with a high level coaching staff where he would have learned a few things. Zero interest in dragging out a non-existent debate about Roberts' coaching acumen.
 
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I was out of sync with the majority posting today. I was disgusted with the effort against DePaul and Providence but I wasn't upset at any time yesterday. I thought the effort was good and the team just couldn't buy a basket. Other than Simons heave SJU was 0-9 from three, and at least five of those were solid looks for Clark, Figueroa, and Heron. I can't get mad at guys for missing good shots that they can make, I don't think they wanted to miss them.

I was far from confident they could win, and pretty much thought it was over when Villanova got it back to fourteen in the second half but it felt more like a bad day than a lack of effort to me.
 
[quote="Paul Massell" post=323696][quote="fuchsia" post=323694]
Jarvis also inherited a group of starters who had a team offense built in from their time playing together at Riverside. Once that team graduated or went pro, no offense other than Marcus Hatten ever appeared for STJ under Jarvis.[/quote]

Very true. I think it was Eric Barkley who said that they rarely even practiced any offense. Jarvis coaching resume is full of riding a single player to success, from Ewing in high school to Yinka Dare and that short guard at GW to Hatten at SJU.[/quote]

I watched over 100 Jarvis practices and this is false. He spent an inordinate amount of time on fundamentals. E.g., boxing out or 10-15 minutes straight of big men getting entry passes and working on hands. He obsessed over detail.

I also don’t think your assessment of riding a few players is accurate. He was good everywhere from Boston University to GW to St. John’s. Yinka Dare only played two seasons at GW and his last season was the second worst Jarvis had at GW. Also, the short kid was Shawnta Rogers and Jarvis only had him for three years. Rogers’ second year was the worst year Jarvis had at GW (15-14).
 
[quote="Paul Massell" post=323713][quote="IDRAFT" post=323711]

Wow, this took a turn I never could have envisioned, SJU fans defending Norm Roberts. This was Roberts record at Queens College before he was hired by SJU.

1991–92 6–21
1992–93 8–19
1993–94 4–23
1994–95 6–21

I guess he inherited a mess there too and couldn't turn it around in four years. Saying Roberts cant coach is sky is blue, water is wet analysis. God Bless anyone defeding his time at SJU, and I mean that, I'm not being snarky. You are a much more tolerant person than I am.[/quote]

All I said was to put it into perspective in support of ghostzapper's points. He came into the shittiest spot in St Johns history and brought in some great players and left the program in better shape that made Lavin look good. He was not given that same opportunity nor was Mullin. Obviously Roberts was hired on the two premises that A) he was one of the best recruiters in the country and B ) his time after QC involved working with a high level coaching staff where he would have learned a few things. Zero interest in dragging out a non-existent debate about Roberts' coaching acumen.[/quote]

The shittiesr inheritance in SJU coaching history was Mullin by a mile. If Mullin started with Lamont Hamton and Showtime we’d wuldnhave danced two years ago.
 
[quote="Marillac" post=323716]
The shittiesr inheritance in SJU coaching history was Mullin by a mile. If Mullin started with Lamont Hamton and Showtime we’d wuldnhave danced two years ago.[/quote]

Hamilton was too big and skilled of a big man for Mullin. (kidding)
 
[quote="IDRAFT" post=323714]I was out of sync with the majority posting today. I was disgusted with the effort against DePaul and Providence but I wasn't upset at any time yesterday. I thought the effort was good and the team just couldn't buy a basket. Other than Simons heave SJU was 0-9 from three, and at least five of those were solid looks for Clark, Figueroa, and Heron. I can't get mad at guys for missing good shots that they can make, I don't think they wanted to miss them.

I was far from confident they could win, and pretty much thought it was over when Villanova got it back to fourteen in the second half but it felt more like a bad day than a lack of effort to me.[/quote]

I agree with every word of this. I was at the game and from watching it in person, it purely was as simple as our shots not falling and theirs were. Nothing to do with effort (or lack thereof) at all. Some one correct me if I'm wrong, but right up until 1 second left in the first half when Simon hits the Miracle from Madison Avenue, Villanova was shooting 100% from 3, and we were shooting ZERO percent from 3. It all turned around in a hurry mid way through the second half - they couldn't buy a clean look, and our shots started finding the bottom of the net.
 
Marillac wrote:
"Oh yeah!!!! 72 enters the thread like the Kool Aid man. We have five games left plus the Big East tournament and all of the experts have us in the dance. If that is mediocrity then sign me up!
We haven’t beaten Nova at home in SEVENTEEN years. That spans the entire tenures of our last three coaches. We’ve made just THREE tournaments in a season that began this century. Get your dancing shoes ready.

And I have been extremely critical of Simon and Pointer over the years because it’s so obvious to me they weren’t playing within their (awesome) abilities and it’s very frustrating. I give them props when they do well. I try not to comment on players that are just bad with no hope."

I'm a cherry red redmen Kool Aid man for sure!;)
You also know that the mediocrity I was referring to was the past three years which rank as the worst seasons in the history of St. John's basketball. Sure, Mully inherited nothing he didn't or couldn't retain from the Lavin era like Brandon Sampson, Chris Obekpa etc, and went after the same players like Ponds, LoVett, Mussini, yada, yada.
Fact remains that in years two and three his staff was a mess and coupled with the Slice fiasco, Mullin made his own bed and year four, while his most successful, has been inconsistent and the team is full of flaws beginning with his bench and the lack of development of his players. Figgy and Heron are brand new and they are great college players covering up the flaws in Clark, Simon and Shamorie who are literally the same players they were 2 years ago. It will very interesting to see who will actually be on the team next season and whether they will blend. Will Precious be added? Will a real associate head coach be hired? It will be an interesting off season for sure.
 
[quote="Marillac" post=323715][quote="Paul Massell" post=323696][quote="fuchsia" post=323694]
Jarvis also inherited a group of starters who had a team offense built in from their time playing together at Riverside. Once that team graduated or went pro, no offense other than Marcus Hatten ever appeared for STJ under Jarvis.[/quote]

Very true. I think it was Eric Barkley who said that they rarely even practiced any offense. Jarvis coaching resume is full of riding a single player to success, from Ewing in high school to Yinka Dare and that short guard at GW to Hatten at SJU.[/quote]

I watched over 100 Jarvis practices and this is false. He spent an inordinate amount of time on fundamentals. E.g., boxing out or 10-15 minutes straight of big men getting entry passes and working on hands. He obsessed over detail.

I also don’t think your assessment of riding a few players is accurate. He was good everywhere from Boston University to GW to St. John’s. Yinka Dare only played two seasons at GW and his last season was the second worst Jarvis had at GW. Also, the short kid was Shawnta Rogers and Jarvis only had him for three years. Rogers’ second year was the worst year Jarvis had at GW (15-14).[/quote]

I'm a lifelong SJU fan who graduated GW in '98. Jarvis was an arrogant jerk who undeniably harmed the program. That said, I always thought he was a very good game coach who maximized the talent that he had. Those GW teams with Shawnta Rogers, Alexander Kohl, Kwame Evans, Yegor Mescheriakov, etc. were fun to watch. At GW, Jarvis made an irrelevant program a perennial NCAA tournament contender. Before destroying SJU, he led them to two of the most successful seasons of the post-Mullin era.
 
[quote="Paul Massell" post=323717][quote="Marillac" post=323716]
The shittiesr inheritance in SJU coaching history was Mullin by a mile. If Mullin started with Lamont Hamton and Showtime we’d wuldnhave danced two years ago.[/quote]

Hamilton was too big and skilled of a big man for Mullin. (kidding)[/quote]

Not defending Roberts, but Showtime's bad knees set the program back. Had he stayed healthy, they may have enjoyed some early success.
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=323722]Marillac wrote:
"Oh yeah!!!! 72 enters the thread like the Kool Aid man. We have five games left plus the Big East tournament and all of the experts have us in the dance. If that is mediocrity then sign me up!
We haven’t beaten Nova at home in SEVENTEEN years. That spans the entire tenures of our last three coaches. We’ve made just THREE tournaments in a season that began this century. Get your dancing shoes ready.

And I have been extremely critical of Simon and Pointer over the years because it’s so obvious to me they weren’t playing within their (awesome) abilities and it’s very frustrating. I give them props when they do well. I try not to comment on players that are just bad with no hope."

I'm a cherry red redmen Kool Aid man for sure!;)
You also know that the mediocrity I was referring to was the past three years which rank as the worst seasons in the history of St. John's basketball. Sure, Mully inherited nothing he didn't or couldn't retain from the Lavin era like Brandon Sampson, Chris Obekpa etc, and went after the same players like Ponds, LoVett, Mussini, yada, yada.
Fact remains that in years two and three his staff was a mess and coupled with the Slice fiasco, Mullin made his own bed and year four, while his most successful, has been inconsistent and the team is full of flaws beginning with his bench and the lack of development of his players. Figgy and Heron are brand new and they are great college players covering up the flaws in Clark, Simon and Shamorie who are literally the same players they were 2 years ago. It will very interesting to see who will actually be on the team next season and whether they will blend. Will Precious be added? Will a real associate head coach be hired? It will be an interesting off season for sure.[/quote]

I don't agree that Ponds is the same player from two years ago. He is not perfect, but there's no question that he's improved as a passer and true pg. Clark and Simon were sitting out two years ago, but they certainly are more productive here than they were at their former schools. I agree that their stats have not improved since last year, but they are surrounded by more talent. Simon and Clark are not perfect, but I'll take them.

We're lacking a solid big man and the semblance of a bench. I agree that's on the staff, but it has nothing to do with player development.
 
[quote="JohnnyFan" post=323588]Apparently this board is not so unique. Nova board is killing Gillespie, some critical posts of Jay Wright and many declaring they won't get out of the first round in March. I guess it's all relative.[/quote]

As, I've said many times before.... This board isn't any different than most message boards. The hyperbolic posts believing this board is so different from other boards is funny. I occasionally read other message boards, and trust me when I say there's some outlandish stuff said on those respective boards.
 
[quote="Boo Harvey" post=323724][quote="Marillac" post=323715][quote="Paul Massell" post=323696][quote="fuchsia" post=323694]
Jarvis also inherited a group of starters who had a team offense built in from their time playing together at Riverside. Once that team graduated or went pro, no offense other than Marcus Hatten ever appeared for STJ under Jarvis.[/quote]

Very true. I think it was Eric Barkley who said that they rarely even practiced any offense. Jarvis coaching resume is full of riding a single player to success, from Ewing in high school to Yinka Dare and that short guard at GW to Hatten at SJU.[/quote]

I watched over 100 Jarvis practices and this is false. He spent an inordinate amount of time on fundamentals. E.g., boxing out or 10-15 minutes straight of big men getting entry passes and working on hands. He obsessed over detail.

I also don’t think your assessment of riding a few players is accurate. He was good everywhere from Boston University to GW to St. John’s. Yinka Dare only played two seasons at GW and his last season was the second worst Jarvis had at GW. Also, the short kid was Shawnta Rogers and Jarvis only had him for three years. Rogers’ second year was the worst year Jarvis had at GW (15-14).[/quote]

I'm a lifelong SJU fan who graduated GW in '98. Jarvis was an arrogant jerk who undeniably harmed the program. That said, I always thought he was a very good game coach who maximized the talent that he had. Those GW teams with Shawnta Rogers, Alexander Kohl, Kwame Evans, Yegor Mescheriakov, etc. were fun to watch. At GW, Jarvis made an irrelevant program a perennial NCAA tournament contender. Before destroying SJU, he led them to two of the most successful seasons of the post-Mullin era.[/quote]

Jarvis didn’t destroy St. John’s...our pitiful “athletic department” run by Wegryzn did. Who fires a coach mid year? No way those players do that if Jarvis was around. Every coach cheats...even Wright was caught. I watched a game on YouTube of Malik Sealy recently and the announcer said that some player at Texas accused St. John’s of offering him $30,000. I don’t remember who it was.

Jarvis was arrogant and fans will color their memories of him and all of his accomplishments as negatively as possible, but I firmly believe he would have taken us to 8-12 tournaments by now if he was extended and retained. He was still getting top players when he was fired. Showtime was top 25, Hamilton was top 75, Ingram was a McDonalds All-American, Epperson looked great, Hatten was incredible, etc.
 
[quote="MJDinkins" post=323729][quote="JohnnyFan" post=323588]Apparently this board is not so unique. Nova board is killing Gillespie, some critical posts of Jay Wright and many declaring they won't get out of the first round in March. I guess it's all relative.[/quote]

As, I've said many times before.... This board isn't any different than most message boards. The hyperbolic posts believing this board is so different from other boards is funny. I occasionally read other message boards, and trust me when I say there's some outlandish stuff said on those respective boards.[/quote]

We lead the COUNTRY in coach firings over the last 25 years. All of them but maybe one have started with the fans. We can justify all of them too like a woman divorced 6x who thinks it was all the fault of her ex-husbands. Next marriage will be different.

If there is any fanbase that should stick by a coach it St. John’s.
 
[quote="Marillac" post=323733][quote="MJDinkins" post=323729][quote="JohnnyFan" post=323588]Apparently this board is not so unique. Nova board is killing Gillespie, some critical posts of Jay Wright and many declaring they won't get out of the first round in March. I guess it's all relative.[/quote]

As, I've said many times before.... This board isn't any different than most message boards. The hyperbolic posts believing this board is so different from other boards is funny. I occasionally read other message boards, and trust me when I say there's some outlandish stuff said on those respective boards.[/quote]

We lead the COUNTRY in coach firings over the last 25 years. All of them but maybe one have started with the fans. We can justify all of them too like a woman divorced 6x who thinks it was all the fault of her ex-husbands. Next marriage will be different.

If there is any fanbase that should stick by a coach it St. John’s.[/quote]

You only stick by a coach when it's warranted. You don't stick by for the sake of or hoping things will change. Coaches who have been considered " successful" has gotten fired in every sport. I can name two off the top of my head in college basketball in JT3 and John Brady.

If Mullin gets us to the NCAA Tournament this season, which it looks like we're on our way, then it'll likely buy him another couple of seasons. But if he tanks badly the next two seasons, then his seat should be blazingly hot.

I also stand by my original point.... This forum isn't any different than other forums.
 
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[quote="MJDinkins" post=323729][quote="JohnnyFan" post=323588]Apparently this board is not so unique. Nova board is killing Gillespie, some critical posts of Jay Wright and many declaring they won't get out of the first round in March. I guess it's all relative.[/quote]

As, I've said many times before.... This board isn't any different than most message boards. The hyperbolic posts believing this board is so different from other boards is funny. I occasionally read other message boards, and trust me when I say there's some outlandish stuff said on those respective boards.[/quote]

Yes, we are not unique when it comes to fanatics.

I also agree that the boards don't represent the majority of fans. We are the 1% that care way too much about our teams.
 
[quote="otis" post=323607][quote="otis" post=323603][quote="mjmaherjr" post=323477]Normally I don’t regret what I say and I really don’t regret what I said in the first half but what I do regret is not believing it was possible to come back from the first half shit show. Although when Simon hit thst 3 I joked around we had a chance. But hands down this was the best second half comeback that I can remember and every team member and staff deserves credit for this and for shutting those Nova fans the fuck up. I’m looking forward to driving up to Providence ( i was going anyway ) but the 6 foot 4 loud guy in the suit will be rooting for you like there is no tomorrow. Let’s go Johnnies !!![/quote][/quote]
—————

The best part of the Villanova game for me was the memorable win over my daughter’s alma mater.

The next best thing about last evening for me was the opportunity to meet the Honorable MJ Maher and his Honorable posse members “Weatherman” “OLV” and others who collectively are the best and most knowledgeable Redmen.comers[/quote]

Otis, thanks for making the trip over to 114. One of the best things about this board is meeting other posters. This season has already been a special season in terms of meetings posters and seeing awesome crowds of Johnny fans at MSG.
 
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