Moon Mullen
Active member
SJU must win 25 this year, nothing like a Saturday night buzz.
Tomorrow you wake up and realize you were talking about St John’s.
Tomorrow you wake up and realize you were talking about St John’s.
Mullin
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beast of the east
Active member
[quote="Class of 72" post=300272][quote="Beast of the East" post=300104][quote="Mike Zaun" post=300097]The stubbornness from Mullin would be much more tolerable if he was actually winning and seemed to know what he was doing pretty well. If you consistently fail AND you are stubborn, then that's major problem that can't be remedied. Let's hope he gets it together this year. Still concerned this year after URI and that exhibition last night. I don't think I've watched a St. John's game yet where I can say Mullin outcoached the opposing coach. It just always seems that the opponent has a plan and plays as a team while we look like we just put a team together on the first day. That's okay in year 1 not year 4.[/quote]
Can you point to a single undeniable issue where Mullin was stubborn? Maybe I've missed something by being away, or maybe you are just speculating mostly on hearsay posted here?[/quote]
We've been having a dialogue in the Mitch Richmond thread that touched on doing things "the Mullin way". The single undeniable issue where Mullin's way (stubbornness? ) has been a problem is the Slice contract issue. As a result, fans have been debating the school’s financial ability to replace Slice when Mullin chose to mysteriously end his relationship with his hand chosen associate head coach. THAT is not hearsay.
What is also not hearsay is a long list of critical reviews of Mullin's NBA management style and decision making. They are attached for your reading enjoyment.
Over 8 years ago a poster not happy with the selection of Steve Lavin as coach posted a blog by a disgruntled UCLA fan that was used constantly when justifying the steady downfall of the Lavin era. Perhaps we will do a better job of vetting future coaches if we read between the lines of many critiques about our candidates.
Mullin's management style was fairly easy to research for anyone really interested. So, don't blame Mike Zaun, me or Paultzman when that information is posted. There is fake news and there is hearsay. None of it applies to Chris Mullin in his current role. Only the final record will speak for itself.
[URL][URL]https://aroyalpain.com/2015/03/31/sacramento-kings-lose-chris-mullin-what-happens-next/[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://nypost.com/2018/01/22/the-weaknesses-pushing-chris-mullin-further-toward-hot-seat/[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://www.bostonglobe.c...mullin-john/pf745a1APPaP5iwoAGz5WJ/story.html[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://www.mercurynews.com/2009/05/11/mullin-out-as-warriors-general-manager/[/URL][/URL][/quote]
No question this was an incredibly expensive hire, overpaying even if he worked out. Arguably, you can take the position that this issue, which had gone incredibly toxic, could have been remediated and Slice retained.
Alternatively, at times a good manager makes a sound decision by removing the toxic element, even at great cost.
For us, paying an assistant 600k, and guaranteeing for multiple years was risky and expensive to begin with, and all by itself could have helped Slice exhibit bad behavior at the first conflict.
That's all been repeated ad nauseum.
What you are deflecting though is even as you reported that mullin was AWOL in California, he was most definitely on campus.
This is the second time you've tried to drag other users here by name into your argument, and you know exactly what i mean. It's childish on your part, and it degrades you.
There is a ton of enthusiasm on campus on where the university, athletic department, and basketball program is headed. Try latching on to that, it's better for your health.
Can you point to a single undeniable issue where Mullin was stubborn? Maybe I've missed something by being away, or maybe you are just speculating mostly on hearsay posted here?[/quote]
We've been having a dialogue in the Mitch Richmond thread that touched on doing things "the Mullin way". The single undeniable issue where Mullin's way (stubbornness? ) has been a problem is the Slice contract issue. As a result, fans have been debating the school’s financial ability to replace Slice when Mullin chose to mysteriously end his relationship with his hand chosen associate head coach. THAT is not hearsay.
What is also not hearsay is a long list of critical reviews of Mullin's NBA management style and decision making. They are attached for your reading enjoyment.
Over 8 years ago a poster not happy with the selection of Steve Lavin as coach posted a blog by a disgruntled UCLA fan that was used constantly when justifying the steady downfall of the Lavin era. Perhaps we will do a better job of vetting future coaches if we read between the lines of many critiques about our candidates.
Mullin's management style was fairly easy to research for anyone really interested. So, don't blame Mike Zaun, me or Paultzman when that information is posted. There is fake news and there is hearsay. None of it applies to Chris Mullin in his current role. Only the final record will speak for itself.
[URL][URL]https://aroyalpain.com/2015/03/31/sacramento-kings-lose-chris-mullin-what-happens-next/[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://nypost.com/2018/01/22/the-weaknesses-pushing-chris-mullin-further-toward-hot-seat/[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://www.bostonglobe.c...mullin-john/pf745a1APPaP5iwoAGz5WJ/story.html[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://www.mercurynews.com/2009/05/11/mullin-out-as-warriors-general-manager/[/URL][/URL][/quote]
No question this was an incredibly expensive hire, overpaying even if he worked out. Arguably, you can take the position that this issue, which had gone incredibly toxic, could have been remediated and Slice retained.
Alternatively, at times a good manager makes a sound decision by removing the toxic element, even at great cost.
For us, paying an assistant 600k, and guaranteeing for multiple years was risky and expensive to begin with, and all by itself could have helped Slice exhibit bad behavior at the first conflict.
That's all been repeated ad nauseum.
What you are deflecting though is even as you reported that mullin was AWOL in California, he was most definitely on campus.
This is the second time you've tried to drag other users here by name into your argument, and you know exactly what i mean. It's childish on your part, and it degrades you.
There is a ton of enthusiasm on campus on where the university, athletic department, and basketball program is headed. Try latching on to that, it's better for your health.
[quote="Beast of the East" post=300293][quote="Class of 72" post=300272][quote="Beast of the East" post=300104][quote="Mike Zaun" post=300097]The stubbornness from Mullin would be much more tolerable if he was actually winning and seemed to know what he was doing pretty well. If you consistently fail AND you are stubborn, then that's major problem that can't be remedied. Let's hope he gets it together this year. Still concerned this year after URI and that exhibition last night. I don't think I've watched a St. John's game yet where I can say Mullin outcoached the opposing coach. It just always seems that the opponent has a plan and plays as a team while we look like we just put a team together on the first day. That's okay in year 1 not year 4.[/quote]
Can you point to a single undeniable issue where Mullin was stubborn? Maybe I've missed something by being away, or maybe you are just speculating mostly on hearsay posted here?[/quote]
We've been having a dialogue in the Mitch Richmond thread that touched on doing things "the Mullin way". The single undeniable issue where Mullin's way (stubbornness? ) has been a problem is the Slice contract issue. As a result, fans have been debating the school’s financial ability to replace Slice when Mullin chose to mysteriously end his relationship with his hand chosen associate head coach. THAT is not hearsay.
What is also not hearsay is a long list of critical reviews of Mullin's NBA management style and decision making. They are attached for your reading enjoyment.
Over 8 years ago a poster not happy with the selection of Steve Lavin as coach posted a blog by a disgruntled UCLA fan that was used constantly when justifying the steady downfall of the Lavin era. Perhaps we will do a better job of vetting future coaches if we read between the lines of many critiques about our candidates.
Mullin's management style was fairly easy to research for anyone really interested. So, don't blame Mike Zaun, me or Paultzman when that information is posted. There is fake news and there is hearsay. None of it applies to Chris Mullin in his current role. Only the final record will speak for itself.
[URL][URL]https://aroyalpain.com/2015/03/31/sacramento-kings-lose-chris-mullin-what-happens-next/[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://nypost.com/2018/01/22/the-weaknesses-pushing-chris-mullin-further-toward-hot-seat/[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://www.bostonglobe.c...mullin-john/pf745a1APPaP5iwoAGz5WJ/story.html[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://www.mercurynews.com/2009/05/11/mullin-out-as-warriors-general-manager/[/URL][/URL][/quote]
No question this was an incredibly expensive hire, overpaying even if he worked out. Arguably, you can take the position that this issue, which had gone incredibly toxic, could have been remediated and Slice retained.
Alternatively, at times a good manager makes a sound decision by removing the toxic element, even at great cost.
For us, paying an assistant 600k, and guaranteeing for multiple years was risky and expensive to begin with, and all by itself could have helped Slice exhibit bad behavior at the first conflict.
That's all been repeated ad nauseum.
What you are deflecting though is even as you reported that mullin was AWOL in California, he was most definitely on campus.
This is the second time you've tried to drag other users here by name into your argument, and you know exactly what i mean. It's childish on your part, and it degrades you.
There is a ton of enthusiasm on campus on where the university, athletic department, and basketball program is headed. Try latching on to that, it's better for your health.[/quote]
BotE, we live in the Brave New World where only position matters, whether that position is based on ANY facts is completely immaterial. Repeat it, repeat it, repeat it and to many it BECOMES fact. It is scary to an old fart like me but that is what the Internet has wrought. Still waiting for someone to explain to me how we hung in with 5 star recruits by NOT recruiting. And that is my question, I am not asking about closing on them because I said from jump street I thought we were recruiting the wrong guys.
Can you point to a single undeniable issue where Mullin was stubborn? Maybe I've missed something by being away, or maybe you are just speculating mostly on hearsay posted here?[/quote]
We've been having a dialogue in the Mitch Richmond thread that touched on doing things "the Mullin way". The single undeniable issue where Mullin's way (stubbornness? ) has been a problem is the Slice contract issue. As a result, fans have been debating the school’s financial ability to replace Slice when Mullin chose to mysteriously end his relationship with his hand chosen associate head coach. THAT is not hearsay.
What is also not hearsay is a long list of critical reviews of Mullin's NBA management style and decision making. They are attached for your reading enjoyment.
Over 8 years ago a poster not happy with the selection of Steve Lavin as coach posted a blog by a disgruntled UCLA fan that was used constantly when justifying the steady downfall of the Lavin era. Perhaps we will do a better job of vetting future coaches if we read between the lines of many critiques about our candidates.
Mullin's management style was fairly easy to research for anyone really interested. So, don't blame Mike Zaun, me or Paultzman when that information is posted. There is fake news and there is hearsay. None of it applies to Chris Mullin in his current role. Only the final record will speak for itself.
[URL][URL]https://aroyalpain.com/2015/03/31/sacramento-kings-lose-chris-mullin-what-happens-next/[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://nypost.com/2018/01/22/the-weaknesses-pushing-chris-mullin-further-toward-hot-seat/[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://www.bostonglobe.c...mullin-john/pf745a1APPaP5iwoAGz5WJ/story.html[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://www.mercurynews.com/2009/05/11/mullin-out-as-warriors-general-manager/[/URL][/URL][/quote]
No question this was an incredibly expensive hire, overpaying even if he worked out. Arguably, you can take the position that this issue, which had gone incredibly toxic, could have been remediated and Slice retained.
Alternatively, at times a good manager makes a sound decision by removing the toxic element, even at great cost.
For us, paying an assistant 600k, and guaranteeing for multiple years was risky and expensive to begin with, and all by itself could have helped Slice exhibit bad behavior at the first conflict.
That's all been repeated ad nauseum.
What you are deflecting though is even as you reported that mullin was AWOL in California, he was most definitely on campus.
This is the second time you've tried to drag other users here by name into your argument, and you know exactly what i mean. It's childish on your part, and it degrades you.
There is a ton of enthusiasm on campus on where the university, athletic department, and basketball program is headed. Try latching on to that, it's better for your health.[/quote]
BotE, we live in the Brave New World where only position matters, whether that position is based on ANY facts is completely immaterial. Repeat it, repeat it, repeat it and to many it BECOMES fact. It is scary to an old fart like me but that is what the Internet has wrought. Still waiting for someone to explain to me how we hung in with 5 star recruits by NOT recruiting. And that is my question, I am not asking about closing on them because I said from jump street I thought we were recruiting the wrong guys.
Moon Mullen
Active member
[quote="Room112" post=300297][quote="Moon Mullen" post=300289]SJU must win 25 this year, nothing like a Saturday night buzz.
Tomorrow you wake up and realize you were talking about St John’s.[/quote]
St John's last won 25 games in the 99-00 season FYI.[/quote]
And they won 31 in the 84-85 season but this is 2018-19, they will win 20+ this year but must win 25 is a bit much.
It should be a good season be happy with that.
Tomorrow you wake up and realize you were talking about St John’s.[/quote]
St John's last won 25 games in the 99-00 season FYI.[/quote]
And they won 31 in the 84-85 season but this is 2018-19, they will win 20+ this year but must win 25 is a bit much.
It should be a good season be happy with that.
[quote="fuchsia" post=300299]Logen, it sure sounds like the brave old world to me as orchestrated by some guy named Goebbels.[/quote]
Can’t disagree, fair point. We could debate the relativity as to the mindset in everyday life versus politics now versus the 30’s/40’s but your point is certainly valid.
Can’t disagree, fair point. We could debate the relativity as to the mindset in everyday life versus politics now versus the 30’s/40’s but your point is certainly valid.
[quote="Moon Mullen" post=300301][quote="Room112" post=300297][quote="Moon Mullen" post=300289]SJU must win 25 this year, nothing like a Saturday night buzz.
Tomorrow you wake up and realize you were talking about St John’s.[/quote]
St John's last won 25 games in the 99-00 season FYI.[/quote]
And they won 31 in the 84-85 season but this is 2018-19, they will win 20+ this year but must win 25 is a bit much.
It should be a good season be happy with that.[/quote]
I was just pointing out that stat to show how ludicris it sounds that 25 wins is a MUST, something we haven't done in 2 decades.
Tomorrow you wake up and realize you were talking about St John’s.[/quote]
St John's last won 25 games in the 99-00 season FYI.[/quote]
And they won 31 in the 84-85 season but this is 2018-19, they will win 20+ this year but must win 25 is a bit much.
It should be a good season be happy with that.[/quote]
I was just pointing out that stat to show how ludicris it sounds that 25 wins is a MUST, something we haven't done in 2 decades.
Moon Mullen
Active member
[quote="Room112" post=300310][quote="Moon Mullen" post=300301][quote="Room112" post=300297][quote="Moon Mullen" post=300289]SJU must win 25 this year, nothing like a Saturday night buzz.
Tomorrow you wake up and realize you were talking about St John’s.[/quote]
St John's last won 25 games in the 99-00 season FYI.[/quote]
And they won 31 in the 84-85 season but this is 2018-19, they will win 20+ this year but must win 25 is a bit much.
It should be a good season be happy with that.[/quote]
I was just pointing out that stat to show how ludicris it sounds that 25 wins is a MUST, something we haven't done in 2 decades.[/quote]
Got it, we’re on the same page.
Tomorrow you wake up and realize you were talking about St John’s.[/quote]
St John's last won 25 games in the 99-00 season FYI.[/quote]
And they won 31 in the 84-85 season but this is 2018-19, they will win 20+ this year but must win 25 is a bit much.
It should be a good season be happy with that.[/quote]
I was just pointing out that stat to show how ludicris it sounds that 25 wins is a MUST, something we haven't done in 2 decades.[/quote]
Got it, we’re on the same page.
Hope Heron’s situation is not like the Yankees Clint Frazier - long term post concussion syndrome. Hope we find out soon. With him - Heron - 20+ seems doable; without him???
all the best.
all the best.
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote="Sherman, Sheridan & Grant" post=300313]Hope Heron’s situation is not like the Yankees Clint Frazier - long term post concussion syndrome. Hope we find out soon. With him - Heron - 20+ seems doable; without him???
all the best.[/quote]
Sorry Général but going from 16-20 without Heron in a weakened big east was always possible. We had our 3 main returning starters who are all very talented, added a big man and a talented wing in Figueroa and another talented guard in Dixon, before the 3 freshman and Trimble. Adding Heron greatly increased our potential fire power if coach can integrate him, get the team to buy into a team concept , share the ball and play défense. Should be an improved team without Heron and could be a very good team if all the pieces fit.
all the best.[/quote]
Sorry Général but going from 16-20 without Heron in a weakened big east was always possible. We had our 3 main returning starters who are all very talented, added a big man and a talented wing in Figueroa and another talented guard in Dixon, before the 3 freshman and Trimble. Adding Heron greatly increased our potential fire power if coach can integrate him, get the team to buy into a team concept , share the ball and play défense. Should be an improved team without Heron and could be a very good team if all the pieces fit.
L J S A
Well-known member
[quote="Room112" post=300297][quote="Moon Mullen" post=300289]SJU must win 25 this year, nothing like a Saturday night buzz.
Tomorrow you wake up and realize you were talking about St John’s.[/quote]
St John's last won 25 games in the 99-00 season FYI.[/quote]
Previous record doesn't really mean much. Loyola Chicago went 18-14 two seasons ago. If you have the horses, you can win.
Tomorrow you wake up and realize you were talking about St John’s.[/quote]
St John's last won 25 games in the 99-00 season FYI.[/quote]
Previous record doesn't really mean much. Loyola Chicago went 18-14 two seasons ago. If you have the horses, you can win.
JohnnyFever
Active member
Not going to get into the game of: set an impossible standard like "show me undeniable proof that Mullin's stubborn" then when I don't have a videoclip of Mullin admitting it himself, you say "checkmate". Even if we did have a vid of him saying such we'd have people saying it was staged or taken out of context. If you read much of what actual reporters like Zach have been saying, it certainly implies that he is stubborn. They don't come out and say it, but it's clearly implied if you read between the lines. We've also had connected posters implying such as well. The lack of action is also further evidence. If one model does not work 3 straight years at all and that model continues without any real changes, that is evidence of stubbornness. If it was a financial decision not to hire another real AC then that's one thing, but we've seen connected posters saying that was NOT the case and he could've brought someone in if he wanted. By the way, Mitch was MIA recruiting and he still wanted to retain him even while he was by all accounts giving us the minimum effort. That's nepotism and stubbornness.
I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just mentioning what has been said and implied by posters in the know as well as actual reporters. I'm trying to remind people that this stuff is not normal in any respectable high major college hoops program. Being on this board during the Mullin era, I have noticed many posters have been willing to normalize this stuff and I can't sit idly by pretending like it's acceptable. I care about the program too much. If Mullin not hiring a real AC to help recruiting was not a financial decision, how was that not a clear example of stubbornness? To not change a model after 3 straight years of vast failure and to have us lose a scrimmage to URI and almost lose to a D2 team with our starters in all game to begin this year? It just seems like it's a model that clearly doesn't work but he has not changed a thing. That's stubbornness. My hope is that those 2 games were just a result of us playing half asleep and not taking them seriously. I hope we wake up and we look like we have a real plan, a sense of urgency, and can see positive coaching influence by Tuesday. Heading into year 4 with as much talent as Nova...that isn't too much to ask at this point. Anything less than a tourney berth is a failure. Let's stick to that.
I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just mentioning what has been said and implied by posters in the know as well as actual reporters. I'm trying to remind people that this stuff is not normal in any respectable high major college hoops program. Being on this board during the Mullin era, I have noticed many posters have been willing to normalize this stuff and I can't sit idly by pretending like it's acceptable. I care about the program too much. If Mullin not hiring a real AC to help recruiting was not a financial decision, how was that not a clear example of stubbornness? To not change a model after 3 straight years of vast failure and to have us lose a scrimmage to URI and almost lose to a D2 team with our starters in all game to begin this year? It just seems like it's a model that clearly doesn't work but he has not changed a thing. That's stubbornness. My hope is that those 2 games were just a result of us playing half asleep and not taking them seriously. I hope we wake up and we look like we have a real plan, a sense of urgency, and can see positive coaching influence by Tuesday. Heading into year 4 with as much talent as Nova...that isn't too much to ask at this point. Anything less than a tourney berth is a failure. Let's stick to that.
Mike Zaun wrote: Not going to get into the game of: set an impossible standard like "show me undeniable proof that Mullin's stubborn" then when I don't have a videoclip of Mullin admitting it himself, you say "checkmate". Even if we did have a vid of him saying such we'd have people saying it was staged or taken out of context. If you read much of what actual reporters like Zach have been saying, it certainly implies that he is stubborn. They don't come out and say it, but it's clearly implied if you read between the lines. We've also had connected posters implying such as well. The lack of action is also further evidence. If one model does not work 3 straight years at all and that model continues without any real changes, that is evidence of stubbornness. If it was a financial decision not to hire another real AC then that's one thing, but we've seen connected posters saying that was NOT the case and he could've brought someone in if he wanted. By the way, Mitch was MIA recruiting and he still wanted to retain him even while he was by all accounts giving us the minimum effort. That's nepotism and stubbornness.
I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just mentioning what has been said and implied by posters in the know as well as actual reporters. I'm trying to remind people that this stuff is not normal in any respectable high major college hoops program. Being on this board during the Mullin era, I have noticed many posters have been willing to normalize this stuff and I can't sit idly by pretending like it's acceptable. I care about the program too much. If Mullin not hiring a real AC to help recruiting was not a financial decision, how was that not a clear example of stubbornness? To not change a model after 3 straight years of vast failure and to have us lose a scrimmage to URI and almost lose to a D2 team with our starters in all game to begin this year? It just seems like it's a model that clearly doesn't work but he has not changed a thing. That's stubbornness. My hope is that those 2 games were just a result of us playing half asleep and not taking them seriously. I hope we wake up and we look like we have a real plan, a sense of urgency, and can see positive coaching influence by Tuesday. Heading into year 4 with as much talent as Nova...that isn't too much to ask at this point. Anything less than a tourney berth is a failure. Let's stick to that.
Mike, you don't have a monopoly on caring about the program. Many of us have been die-hard fans for 40 or 50 years and been disappointed countless times. Just because we choose to be supportive and give the team and staff the benefit of the doubt, doesn't mean we care about the program, staff & kids any less than you. Some might say just the opposite. At the end of the day, it's just a game to provide us with a wonderful distraction from both the stress and routine of everday living. Nothing more. Let's just enjoy this year and come down off the ledge for a while.
I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just mentioning what has been said and implied by posters in the know as well as actual reporters. I'm trying to remind people that this stuff is not normal in any respectable high major college hoops program. Being on this board during the Mullin era, I have noticed many posters have been willing to normalize this stuff and I can't sit idly by pretending like it's acceptable. I care about the program too much. If Mullin not hiring a real AC to help recruiting was not a financial decision, how was that not a clear example of stubbornness? To not change a model after 3 straight years of vast failure and to have us lose a scrimmage to URI and almost lose to a D2 team with our starters in all game to begin this year? It just seems like it's a model that clearly doesn't work but he has not changed a thing. That's stubbornness. My hope is that those 2 games were just a result of us playing half asleep and not taking them seriously. I hope we wake up and we look like we have a real plan, a sense of urgency, and can see positive coaching influence by Tuesday. Heading into year 4 with as much talent as Nova...that isn't too much to ask at this point. Anything less than a tourney berth is a failure. Let's stick to that.
Mike, you don't have a monopoly on caring about the program. Many of us have been die-hard fans for 40 or 50 years and been disappointed countless times. Just because we choose to be supportive and give the team and staff the benefit of the doubt, doesn't mean we care about the program, staff & kids any less than you. Some might say just the opposite. At the end of the day, it's just a game to provide us with a wonderful distraction from both the stress and routine of everday living. Nothing more. Let's just enjoy this year and come down off the ledge for a while.
JohnnyFever
Active member
[quote="NCJohnnie" post=300327]Mike Zaun wrote: Not going to get into the game of: set an impossible standard like "show me undeniable proof that Mullin's stubborn" then when I don't have a videoclip of Mullin admitting it himself, you say "checkmate". Even if we did have a vid of him saying such we'd have people saying it was staged or taken out of context. If you read much of what actual reporters like Zach have been saying, it certainly implies that he is stubborn. They don't come out and say it, but it's clearly implied if you read between the lines. We've also had connected posters implying such as well. The lack of action is also further evidence. If one model does not work 3 straight years at all and that model continues without any real changes, that is evidence of stubbornness. If it was a financial decision not to hire another real AC then that's one thing, but we've seen connected posters saying that was NOT the case and he could've brought someone in if he wanted. By the way, Mitch was MIA recruiting and he still wanted to retain him even while he was by all accounts giving us the minimum effort. That's nepotism and stubbornness.
I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just mentioning what has been said and implied by posters in the know as well as actual reporters. I'm trying to remind people that this stuff is not normal in any respectable high major college hoops program. Being on this board during the Mullin era, I have noticed many posters have been willing to normalize this stuff and I can't sit idly by pretending like it's acceptable. I care about the program too much. If Mullin not hiring a real AC to help recruiting was not a financial decision, how was that not a clear example of stubbornness? To not change a model after 3 straight years of vast failure and to have us lose a scrimmage to URI and almost lose to a D2 team with our starters in all game to begin this year? It just seems like it's a model that clearly doesn't work but he has not changed a thing. That's stubbornness. My hope is that those 2 games were just a result of us playing half asleep and not taking them seriously. I hope we wake up and we look like we have a real plan, a sense of urgency, and can see positive coaching influence by Tuesday. Heading into year 4 with as much talent as Nova...that isn't too much to ask at this point. Anything less than a tourney berth is a failure. Let's stick to that.
Mike, you don't have a monopoly on caring about the program. Many of us have been die-hard fans for 40 or 50 years and been disappointed countless times. Just because we choose to be supportive and give the team and staff the benefit of the doubt, doesn't mean we care about the program, staff & kids any less than you. Some might say just the opposite. At the end of the day, it's just a game to provide us with a wonderful distraction from both the stress and routine of everday living. Nothing more. Let's just enjoy this year and come down off the ledge for a while.[/quote]
Fair, I just don't want the goalposts moved or the perspective changed. Of course sports aren't everything, but if you're posting on this forum you are more than the run of the mill average fan. If times are tough, instead of reframing it to seem less important, why not fix the problems? If you fail a test, you don't minimize the meaning of the test, you see where you went wrong, study hard to fix it, and hopefully you pass the next take. We shouldn't run from problems or change their level of importance. We should try to fix them. That being said I respect the differing opinions and look forward to having a beer (or 5) with some of you guys! I'm an IPA guy, so maybe MJ can help point me in the direction of some solid choices. Despite my concerns, I'm pumped for this season and I can't wait until Tues. I will be there.
I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just mentioning what has been said and implied by posters in the know as well as actual reporters. I'm trying to remind people that this stuff is not normal in any respectable high major college hoops program. Being on this board during the Mullin era, I have noticed many posters have been willing to normalize this stuff and I can't sit idly by pretending like it's acceptable. I care about the program too much. If Mullin not hiring a real AC to help recruiting was not a financial decision, how was that not a clear example of stubbornness? To not change a model after 3 straight years of vast failure and to have us lose a scrimmage to URI and almost lose to a D2 team with our starters in all game to begin this year? It just seems like it's a model that clearly doesn't work but he has not changed a thing. That's stubbornness. My hope is that those 2 games were just a result of us playing half asleep and not taking them seriously. I hope we wake up and we look like we have a real plan, a sense of urgency, and can see positive coaching influence by Tuesday. Heading into year 4 with as much talent as Nova...that isn't too much to ask at this point. Anything less than a tourney berth is a failure. Let's stick to that.
Mike, you don't have a monopoly on caring about the program. Many of us have been die-hard fans for 40 or 50 years and been disappointed countless times. Just because we choose to be supportive and give the team and staff the benefit of the doubt, doesn't mean we care about the program, staff & kids any less than you. Some might say just the opposite. At the end of the day, it's just a game to provide us with a wonderful distraction from both the stress and routine of everday living. Nothing more. Let's just enjoy this year and come down off the ledge for a while.[/quote]
Fair, I just don't want the goalposts moved or the perspective changed. Of course sports aren't everything, but if you're posting on this forum you are more than the run of the mill average fan. If times are tough, instead of reframing it to seem less important, why not fix the problems? If you fail a test, you don't minimize the meaning of the test, you see where you went wrong, study hard to fix it, and hopefully you pass the next take. We shouldn't run from problems or change their level of importance. We should try to fix them. That being said I respect the differing opinions and look forward to having a beer (or 5) with some of you guys! I'm an IPA guy, so maybe MJ can help point me in the direction of some solid choices. Despite my concerns, I'm pumped for this season and I can't wait until Tues. I will be there.
Class of 72
Active member
[quote="Beast of the East" post=300293][quote="Class of 72" post=300272][quote="Beast of the East" post=300104][quote="Mike Zaun" post=300097]The stubbornness from Mullin would be much more tolerable if he was actually winning and seemed to know what he was doing pretty well. If you consistently fail AND you are stubborn, then that's major problem that can't be remedied. Let's hope he gets it together this year. Still concerned this year after URI and that exhibition last night. I don't think I've watched a St. John's game yet where I can say Mullin outcoached the opposing coach. It just always seems that the opponent has a plan and plays as a team while we look like we just put a team together on the first day. That's okay in year 1 not year 4.[/quote]
Can you point to a single undeniable issue where Mullin was stubborn? Maybe I've missed something by being away, or maybe you are just speculating mostly on hearsay posted here?[/quote]
We've been having a dialogue in the Mitch Richmond thread that touched on doing things "the Mullin way". The single undeniable issue where Mullin's way (stubbornness? ) has been a problem is the Slice contract issue. As a result, fans have been debating the school’s financial ability to replace Slice when Mullin chose to mysteriously end his relationship with his hand chosen associate head coach. THAT is not hearsay.
What is also not hearsay is a long list of critical reviews of Mullin's NBA management style and decision making. They are attached for your reading enjoyment.
Over 8 years ago a poster not happy with the selection of Steve Lavin as coach posted a blog by a disgruntled UCLA fan that was used constantly when justifying the steady downfall of the Lavin era. Perhaps we will do a better job of vetting future coaches if we read between the lines of many critiques about our candidates.
Mullin's management style was fairly easy to research for anyone really interested. So, don't blame Mike Zaun, me or Paultzman when that information is posted. There is fake news and there is hearsay. None of it applies to Chris Mullin in his current role. Only the final record will speak for itself.
[URL][URL]https://aroyalpain.com/2015/03/31/sacramento-kings-lose-chris-mullin-what-happens-next/[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://nypost.com/2018/01/22/the-weaknesses-pushing-chris-mullin-further-toward-hot-seat/[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://www.bostonglobe.c...mullin-john/pf745a1APPaP5iwoAGz5WJ/story.html[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://www.mercurynews.com/2009/05/11/mullin-out-as-warriors-general-manager/[/URL][/URL][/quote]
No question this was an incredibly expensive hire, overpaying even if he worked out. Arguably, you can take the position that this issue, which had gone incredibly toxic, could have been remediated and Slice retained.
Alternatively, at times a good manager makes a sound decision by removing the toxic element, even at great cost.
For us, paying an assistant 600k, and guaranteeing for multiple years was risky and expensive to begin with, and all by itself could have helped Slice exhibit bad behavior at the first conflict.
That's all been repeated ad nauseum.
What you are deflecting though is even as you reported that mullin was AWOL in California, he was most definitely on campus.
This is the second time you've tried to drag other users here by name into your argument, and you know exactly what i mean. It's childish on your part, and it degrades you.
There is a ton of enthusiasm on campus on where the university, athletic department, and basketball program is headed. Try latching on to that, it's better for your health.[/quote]
Beast: What you are deflecting though is even as you reported that mullin was AWOL in California, he was most definitely on campus.
72: I never said he didn't make appearances on campus. Some people know when and where he did so. Liz and family spent time on the east end this past summer so Mully was obviously here during that stretch. He spent time with his brother and sons. My reference was to the inordinate amount of time he (and) Mitch spent in California since April 2018.
Mitch spent zero time on the recruiting trail this year. I am not sure what I am deflecting but last I checked our school and basketball program are located in New York.
Beast: "This is the second time you've tried to drag other users here by name into your argument, and you know exactly what i mean. It's childish on your part, and it degrades you."
72: I didn't drag anyone into any argument. Follow the dots and you would see you were in the thread prior to my retort. That you don't like being referenced is not my problem but yours. You castigated Mike Zaun by stating "maybe you are just speculating mostly on hearsay posted here?" All I did was attach source articles that contribute to the sometimes intransigence that leads observers to view Mullin as "stubborn". That mindset has been put forth privately by a couple of big time donors as to the real reason for the Slice fiasco. They also do not think this president coupled with the incompetent Oliva, have been helpful in resolving the conflict.
Until there is a $3 million solution to this major roadblock in the program it will be discussed ad nauseum because it festers to this day.
It's nothing personal. It's just business.
Can you point to a single undeniable issue where Mullin was stubborn? Maybe I've missed something by being away, or maybe you are just speculating mostly on hearsay posted here?[/quote]
We've been having a dialogue in the Mitch Richmond thread that touched on doing things "the Mullin way". The single undeniable issue where Mullin's way (stubbornness? ) has been a problem is the Slice contract issue. As a result, fans have been debating the school’s financial ability to replace Slice when Mullin chose to mysteriously end his relationship with his hand chosen associate head coach. THAT is not hearsay.
What is also not hearsay is a long list of critical reviews of Mullin's NBA management style and decision making. They are attached for your reading enjoyment.
Over 8 years ago a poster not happy with the selection of Steve Lavin as coach posted a blog by a disgruntled UCLA fan that was used constantly when justifying the steady downfall of the Lavin era. Perhaps we will do a better job of vetting future coaches if we read between the lines of many critiques about our candidates.
Mullin's management style was fairly easy to research for anyone really interested. So, don't blame Mike Zaun, me or Paultzman when that information is posted. There is fake news and there is hearsay. None of it applies to Chris Mullin in his current role. Only the final record will speak for itself.
[URL][URL]https://aroyalpain.com/2015/03/31/sacramento-kings-lose-chris-mullin-what-happens-next/[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://nypost.com/2018/01/22/the-weaknesses-pushing-chris-mullin-further-toward-hot-seat/[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://www.bostonglobe.c...mullin-john/pf745a1APPaP5iwoAGz5WJ/story.html[/URL][/URL]
[URL][URL]https://www.mercurynews.com/2009/05/11/mullin-out-as-warriors-general-manager/[/URL][/URL][/quote]
No question this was an incredibly expensive hire, overpaying even if he worked out. Arguably, you can take the position that this issue, which had gone incredibly toxic, could have been remediated and Slice retained.
Alternatively, at times a good manager makes a sound decision by removing the toxic element, even at great cost.
For us, paying an assistant 600k, and guaranteeing for multiple years was risky and expensive to begin with, and all by itself could have helped Slice exhibit bad behavior at the first conflict.
That's all been repeated ad nauseum.
What you are deflecting though is even as you reported that mullin was AWOL in California, he was most definitely on campus.
This is the second time you've tried to drag other users here by name into your argument, and you know exactly what i mean. It's childish on your part, and it degrades you.
There is a ton of enthusiasm on campus on where the university, athletic department, and basketball program is headed. Try latching on to that, it's better for your health.[/quote]
Beast: What you are deflecting though is even as you reported that mullin was AWOL in California, he was most definitely on campus.
72: I never said he didn't make appearances on campus. Some people know when and where he did so. Liz and family spent time on the east end this past summer so Mully was obviously here during that stretch. He spent time with his brother and sons. My reference was to the inordinate amount of time he (and) Mitch spent in California since April 2018.
Mitch spent zero time on the recruiting trail this year. I am not sure what I am deflecting but last I checked our school and basketball program are located in New York.
Beast: "This is the second time you've tried to drag other users here by name into your argument, and you know exactly what i mean. It's childish on your part, and it degrades you."
72: I didn't drag anyone into any argument. Follow the dots and you would see you were in the thread prior to my retort. That you don't like being referenced is not my problem but yours. You castigated Mike Zaun by stating "maybe you are just speculating mostly on hearsay posted here?" All I did was attach source articles that contribute to the sometimes intransigence that leads observers to view Mullin as "stubborn". That mindset has been put forth privately by a couple of big time donors as to the real reason for the Slice fiasco. They also do not think this president coupled with the incompetent Oliva, have been helpful in resolving the conflict.
Until there is a $3 million solution to this major roadblock in the program it will be discussed ad nauseum because it festers to this day.
It's nothing personal. It's just business.
Class of 72
Active member
[quote="NCJohnnie" post=300327]Mike Zaun wrote: Not going to get into the game of: set an impossible standard like "show me undeniable proof that Mullin's stubborn" then when I don't have a videoclip of Mullin admitting it himself, you say "checkmate". Even if we did have a vid of him saying such we'd have people saying it was staged or taken out of context. If you read much of what actual reporters like Zach have been saying, it certainly implies that he is stubborn. They don't come out and say it, but it's clearly implied if you read between the lines. We've also had connected posters implying such as well. The lack of action is also further evidence. If one model does not work 3 straight years at all and that model continues without any real changes, that is evidence of stubbornness. If it was a financial decision not to hire another real AC then that's one thing, but we've seen connected posters saying that was NOT the case and he could've brought someone in if he wanted. By the way, Mitch was MIA recruiting and he still wanted to retain him even while he was by all accounts giving us the minimum effort. That's nepotism and stubbornness.
I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just mentioning what has been said and implied by posters in the know as well as actual reporters. I'm trying to remind people that this stuff is not normal in any respectable high major college hoops program. Being on this board during the Mullin era, I have noticed many posters have been willing to normalize this stuff and I can't sit idly by pretending like it's acceptable. I care about the program too much. If Mullin not hiring a real AC to help recruiting was not a financial decision, how was that not a clear example of stubbornness? To not change a model after 3 straight years of vast failure and to have us lose a scrimmage to URI and almost lose to a D2 team with our starters in all game to begin this year? It just seems like it's a model that clearly doesn't work but he has not changed a thing. That's stubbornness. My hope is that those 2 games were just a result of us playing half asleep and not taking them seriously. I hope we wake up and we look like we have a real plan, a sense of urgency, and can see positive coaching influence by Tuesday. Heading into year 4 with as much talent as Nova...that isn't too much to ask at this point. Anything less than a tourney berth is a failure. Let's stick to that.
Mike, you don't have a monopoly on caring about the program. Many of us have been die-hard fans for 40 or 50 years and been disappointed countless times. Just because we choose to be supportive and give the team and staff the benefit of the doubt, doesn't mean we care about the program, staff & kids any less than you. Some might say just the opposite. At the end of the day, it's just a game to provide us with a wonderful distraction from both the stress and routine of everday living. Nothing more. Let's just enjoy this year and come down off the ledge for a while.[/quote]
Well said!
In fact any fan of the program in the 50 year club deserves special kudos. While we have all ventured "on the ledge" many times over the years, it should not be lost on the critics of the critics here that we have returned year after year, attended game after game and while we have spent as much time on ledges we have also believed , year after year, that we can fly. That we could also touch that rarefied air of success. That we usually end up not succeeding is why we end up having these same debates every year.
May all my fellow veteran old timers be healthy and happy this season. That's what really matters.
I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just mentioning what has been said and implied by posters in the know as well as actual reporters. I'm trying to remind people that this stuff is not normal in any respectable high major college hoops program. Being on this board during the Mullin era, I have noticed many posters have been willing to normalize this stuff and I can't sit idly by pretending like it's acceptable. I care about the program too much. If Mullin not hiring a real AC to help recruiting was not a financial decision, how was that not a clear example of stubbornness? To not change a model after 3 straight years of vast failure and to have us lose a scrimmage to URI and almost lose to a D2 team with our starters in all game to begin this year? It just seems like it's a model that clearly doesn't work but he has not changed a thing. That's stubbornness. My hope is that those 2 games were just a result of us playing half asleep and not taking them seriously. I hope we wake up and we look like we have a real plan, a sense of urgency, and can see positive coaching influence by Tuesday. Heading into year 4 with as much talent as Nova...that isn't too much to ask at this point. Anything less than a tourney berth is a failure. Let's stick to that.
Mike, you don't have a monopoly on caring about the program. Many of us have been die-hard fans for 40 or 50 years and been disappointed countless times. Just because we choose to be supportive and give the team and staff the benefit of the doubt, doesn't mean we care about the program, staff & kids any less than you. Some might say just the opposite. At the end of the day, it's just a game to provide us with a wonderful distraction from both the stress and routine of everday living. Nothing more. Let's just enjoy this year and come down off the ledge for a while.[/quote]
Well said!
In fact any fan of the program in the 50 year club deserves special kudos. While we have all ventured "on the ledge" many times over the years, it should not be lost on the critics of the critics here that we have returned year after year, attended game after game and while we have spent as much time on ledges we have also believed , year after year, that we can fly. That we could also touch that rarefied air of success. That we usually end up not succeeding is why we end up having these same debates every year.
May all my fellow veteran old timers be healthy and happy this season. That's what really matters.
[quote="Moon Mullen" post=300311][quote="Room112" post=300310][quote="Moon Mullen" post=300301][quote="Room112" post=300297][quote="Moon Mullen" post=300289]SJU must win 25 this year, nothing like a Saturday night buzz.
Tomorrow you wake up and realize you were talking about St John’s.[/quote]
St John's last won 25 games in the 99-00 season FYI.[/quote]
And they won 31 in the 84-85 season but this is 2018-19, they will win 20+ this year but must win 25 is a bit much.
It should be a good season be happy with that.[/quote]
I was just pointing out that stat to show how ludicris it sounds that 25 wins is a MUST, something we haven't done in 2 decades.[/quote]
Got it, we’re on the same page.[/quote]
With the week out of conference schedule and the Big East being a little down this year, if they don't win 25 games they will only make the NCAA Tournament if they win the Big East Tournament. Which is not out of the realm of possibility with the talent on this team. But, if they want to guarantee themselves an at large bid in the NCAA Tournament and not have to worry about what happens in the BET, then they need 25 wins in the regular season.
Tomorrow you wake up and realize you were talking about St John’s.[/quote]
St John's last won 25 games in the 99-00 season FYI.[/quote]
And they won 31 in the 84-85 season but this is 2018-19, they will win 20+ this year but must win 25 is a bit much.
It should be a good season be happy with that.[/quote]
I was just pointing out that stat to show how ludicris it sounds that 25 wins is a MUST, something we haven't done in 2 decades.[/quote]
Got it, we’re on the same page.[/quote]
With the week out of conference schedule and the Big East being a little down this year, if they don't win 25 games they will only make the NCAA Tournament if they win the Big East Tournament. Which is not out of the realm of possibility with the talent on this team. But, if they want to guarantee themselves an at large bid in the NCAA Tournament and not have to worry about what happens in the BET, then they need 25 wins in the regular season.
Never loved hiring a legend and still believe we should not depend on one recruiter. That said, I assume all of us want to see a successful season with this talented roster. If that happens, I’ll worry about next season in April. If we don’t “dance” I suspect Chris, a very competitive guy who hates losing, will be realistic about his tenure here. Cragg in my opinion will also be vigilant and adeptly assess things. For now, roll out the balls and see what we have. To me the pieces are there for a very good year. That has not been the norm here and I welcome this opportunity to be relevant once again.
Sharing the ball, being committed to defending and rebounding and becoming road warriors may be formula for finally getting out of this rut. If not, so be it.
Sharing the ball, being committed to defending and rebounding and becoming road warriors may be formula for finally getting out of this rut. If not, so be it.
- Status