Mullin Update

Ok counselor. My proof. Lawmanfan. You were wrong in your previous post where you said and I quote "When Lavin was coach for 10 months he got a pass for everything. Everyone was still giddy from the hire" because lawman was one of a couple who were against him from day 1 and Lawman and I used to go back and forth over stuff with Lavin when Lawman would knock him and I would defend him. I even texted lawman after Lavin got fired admitting to Lawman that he was right and I was wrong

I'll recap the discussion, because you seem to have lost your way.

A poster asked why you were being so hard on Mullin, after giving Norm a pass, and then Lavin a pass. You said it was because

"he [mullin] definitely is getting a pass on stuff that people didn't give lavin a pass for because people were Mullin sju fans."

"[Mullin is given a pass for] the same thing people were killing Lavin for [when] actually I saw Lavin doing more on the sidelines"

I asked you to name those things that Lavin got killed for that Mullin is getting a pass on. That was all I asked. You came up with (1) people allegedly upset about Mike Dunlap being the X and O guy (which I think never happened and quite the opposite) (2) complaints about the Pitt game (which I find highly unlikely) and (3) Bobre (who is unhinged). The only thing on that list that's even comparable is the the X And O thing and lots of people are not giving Mullin a pass about that. Quite the opposite: lots of people are wondering why Slice addresses the team during time outs and what Saint Jean is doing with the white board and why Mullin sits on the scorer's table rather than on the bench imparting wisdom to his players. So he's not getting a pass. His seeming detachment is in fact the thing he is most criticized for. It is in fact what leads people like you to wonder whether he can be a successful head coach.

If I had asked you to merely name someone who criticized Lavin you could have mentioned: me. I killed him for four years with language so brutal that he and his wife and even Ron Linfonte blocked me on Twitter despite the fact that I never addressed any of them directly; in the wake of something I wrote about Cap on a website that a moderator of this site held a super secret vote to have me banned from here, based on something he read elsewhere of his own volition. I take a back seat to NO ONE in killing Lavin and certainly not the person whose name you mentioned that I won't repeat lest he appear and write a 9-paragraph essay on the differences between the box and one and the alley opp.

Ten months was hyperbole and is anyway relevant only because the OP mentioned how long you hung on for Norm. Most relationships have a honeymoon period. Even Lavin and I had one, briefly. You meet a girl and she has a lilting laugh that makes your heart sing. Three years later she laughs one too many times and you cut her head off and dissolve her body in a vat of lye in the basement. Because what was once charming is no longer. You do not seem to find Mullin's new laugh as beguiling 10 months in as you find Lavin's tired grating cackle after 100. That's odd, considering what Chris Mullin has meant to the university and what he ha accomplished in his basketball career - as opposed to Lavin, a gaseous lazy oleaginous charlatan. It's odd.


Oh and 2nd piece of Evidence or Poster of Evidence. Doc Butler. He practically got run off the board in the beginning for being critical of Lavin and I'm pretty sure he called him out after the Fordham game and in hindsight he was right

Doc Butler has disapproved of every SJU coach since Joe Buck Freeman. This year he wrote a long post IN ALL CAPS about how Mullin was a failure after the first exhibition loss in November. Mullin did not get a pass from Doc Butler.


Oh and The Burrell thing that you don't think happened after the pitt game ? wrong again

http://espn.go.com/espn/print?id=6140132

Burrells quote which Lavin most definitely got knocked for that was taken out of context by a couple of people " And there was this from another one of Lavin's seniors, another in an endless parade of them, Justin Burrell: "He doesn't really coach. I don't know what he does."

Now you're just making stuff up. I never mentioned Burrell, you did. You said that the Burrell quote spawned discussions in which Lavin got killed. All I said was that it was highly unlikely that Lavin got killed in the aftermath of the Pitt win, which was about the most important win in recent history and one of the more exciting basketball games I've ever seen. That Burrell said something in the Post is not proof of a discussion that you Lavin got killed here. And unless you claiming that Chris Mullin is getting a pass from Burrell, who cares what Burrell said.


Oh and another since I can't find redmen.com archives going back that far, Further proof that Lavin didn't get a pass on everything his first 10 months. Thread after the fordham game on the jungle

http://johnnyjungle.com/forum/index.php?topic=5042.0

Oh and this one too since you claim the burden of proof resides with me even though you accuse me without proof

http://johnnyjungle.com/forum/index.php?topic=5201.0

Defense rests my case

That's wise. You should in fact have settled before trial, because none of your evidence is relevant. I didn't say no one criticized Lavin ever for anything. No one criticized Lavin longer and more unfairly and more vociferously than I did. I merely asked you to please name the things Chris Mullin is getting a pass for that Lavin was pilloried for. That you have not been able to do. You have not been able to do it because your premise is false.
 
Listen, I do not know why Slice and ST Jean seem to do most of the coaching during games. Is it worrisome? I am not sure yet. I take absolutely nothing away from this season. I do have a question for those obsessing about the X and O thing. Do you really think that Steve Lavin, Norm Roberts, Mike Jarvis or Brian Mahoney know more about basketball than Mullin? This year is a waste so maybe Mullin is just trying to find his way in addressing the team? I don't know, but not going to worry about it until next year.
 
I dont want to debate the merit of Steve Lavin's coaching ability but a good coach I think he is not. Do you think that playing the 4 out 1 in approach was the right move for that team? And yes, I know it was his fault for having the team that he had and recruiting the kids that he recruited.

I think he developed a flawed system sitting around the ESPN studios glad handing with all the other failed coaches and recruited players he thought could implement his system. I think his system was flawed and he was unable to change because that would have been an admission of error, which he is incapable of, because he suffers from a personality disorder. I think he was successful for the two years he was successful because his seniors were able to overcome their coach's shortcomings. Which is simply restating what Baron Davis said quite a while ago: “We should have a banner up there: the only team to make the tournament without a coach.”
 
[. The one thing I can say with certainty having followed the team closely since 1981 is that the 2015 and 2016 recruiting classes are the best we have had since the 1983 and 1984 classes. In fact they could turn out better. .

RMN, you're one of my favorite posters of all time but that statement is just silly. Not one player in the last two classes comes in with significantly better expectations than Tarik Turner, forget the fact he came in with two other top 10 recruits, and they came in one year after a two man class that both played in the NBA. Sealy/Werdann/Sprolling/Buchanan much better too, and at the risk of Fun having a heart attack neither the 15 or 16 class matches up with even the guys who did make it to campus in Lavin's one big class, forget about the ones who cam later or the one that never did. So having two okay classes in a row is nice but it would be nicer to have one great one followed by one okay one. I'm happy with the talent but not nearly as much so as I have been with the three classes above and not that much happier than about a half a dozen other periods over the years. Until RF proves he's really Dirk and not Sergio and Bashir that he's better than James Scott then we have a stellar one man class. The two useful pieces of the class of 15 are projects and then we have Lovett, who hopefully makes me forget I was ever this cynical.

I'd take Norm's DJ Kennedy, Horne, Burrell, etc. class over the 2015 class.

This is a little unfair. That class had 4 years to grow and get better, and probably would've never seen the NCAA tournament if Hardy never came here. You've only seen this class for 3/4s of one season, who knows how they will progress and how good they will be four years from now

if this class is so good how come they can't win a Big East game?

Where did you see me say that they are so good? How good a class is isn't determined by how well they do their freshmen year. You think any nova fan thought the recruiting class of Arcidiacono and Ochefu was going to be their winningest class of all time? You don't know they will progress. And if you wanna talk crap on these kids for not winning a big east maybe you shouldn't be around for when these kids right the ship the next years

I'll tell you one thing, it won't be "these kids" on the current team, it will be our freshmen next year and the following year. As other schools bring in ready to win freshmen classes, we cannot depend on these guys to "right the ship." This is the Big East, you either have it or you don't, unfortunately no one on this team has show they can be an impact player in the Big East, nor have any of them shown there's hope for them to develop into impact players in this caliber conference their sophomore years and so on.
 
[. The one thing I can say with certainty having followed the team closely since 1981 is that the 2015 and 2016 recruiting classes are the best we have had since the 1983 and 1984 classes. In fact they could turn out better. .

RMN, you're one of my favorite posters of all time but that statement is just silly. Not one player in the last two classes comes in with significantly better expectations than Tarik Turner, forget the fact he came in with two other top 10 recruits, and they came in one year after a two man class that both played in the NBA. Sealy/Werdann/Sprolling/Buchanan much better too, and at the risk of Fun having a heart attack neither the 15 or 16 class matches up with even the guys who did make it to campus in Lavin's one big class, forget about the ones who cam later or the one that never did. So having two okay classes in a row is nice but it would be nicer to have one great one followed by one okay one. I'm happy with the talent but not nearly as much so as I have been with the three classes above and not that much happier than about a half a dozen other periods over the years. Until RF proves he's really Dirk and not Sergio and Bashir that he's better than James Scott then we have a stellar one man class. The two useful pieces of the class of 15 are projects and then we have Lovett, who hopefully makes me forget I was ever this cynical.

I'd take Norm's DJ Kennedy, Horne, Burrell, etc. class over the 2015 class.

This is a little unfair. That class had 4 years to grow and get better, and probably would've never seen the NCAA tournament if Hardy never came here. You've only seen this class for 3/4s of one season, who knows how they will progress and how good they will be four years from now

if this class is so good how come they can't win a Big East game?

Where did you see me say that they are so good? How good a class is isn't determined by how well they do their freshmen year. You think any nova fan thought the recruiting class of Arcidiacono and Ochefu was going to be their winningest class of all time? You don't know they will progress. And if you wanna talk crap on these kids for not winning a big east maybe you shouldn't be around for when these kids right the ship the next years

I'll tell you one thing, it won't be "these kids" on the current team, it will be our freshmen next year and the following year. As other schools bring in ready to win freshmen classes, we cannot depend on these guys to "right the ship." This is the Big East, you either have it or you don't, unfortunately no one on this team has show they can be an impact player in the Big East, nor have any of them shown there's hope for them to develop into impact players in this caliber conference their sophomore years and so on.


Yea maybe Shamorie Ponds will be our best player on future tournament teams, maybe Jordan Ticker will come and average 20 a night. But I'll tell YOU one thing, if you don't think Kassoum Yakwe and Yankuba Sima can be great players for this program I don't know what you've been watching all year. If you think Mussini and Ellison can't continue to improve over four years, so be it.

Obviously future classes will have more talent. I never said the 2015 class was going to win us NCAA tournament games by themselves. But if these kids keep playing hard, improve year to year, and contribute on future very good SJU teams, I can say with full confidence they will be looked upon as a great class in SJU history. A class that took beating after beating their freshmen year but didn't quit or back down. They will come back, and with future players such as Lovett, Ponds, Ahmed, hopefully Tucker, Wilson, etc, they will bring St. John's basketball back.
 
[. The one thing I can say with certainty having followed the team closely since 1981 is that the 2015 and 2016 recruiting classes are the best we have had since the 1983 and 1984 classes. In fact they could turn out better. .

RMN, you're one of my favorite posters of all time but that statement is just silly. Not one player in the last two classes comes in with significantly better expectations than Tarik Turner, forget the fact he came in with two other top 10 recruits, and they came in one year after a two man class that both played in the NBA. Sealy/Werdann/Sprolling/Buchanan much better too, and at the risk of Fun having a heart attack neither the 15 or 16 class matches up with even the guys who did make it to campus in Lavin's one big class, forget about the ones who cam later or the one that never did. So having two okay classes in a row is nice but it would be nicer to have one great one followed by one okay one. I'm happy with the talent but not nearly as much so as I have been with the three classes above and not that much happier than about a half a dozen other periods over the years. Until RF proves he's really Dirk and not Sergio and Bashir that he's better than James Scott then we have a stellar one man class. The two useful pieces of the class of 15 are projects and then we have Lovett, who hopefully makes me forget I was ever this cynical.

I'd take Norm's DJ Kennedy, Horne, Burrell, etc. class over the 2015 class.

This is a little unfair. That class had 4 years to grow and get better, and probably would've never seen the NCAA tournament if Hardy never came here. You've only seen this class for 3/4s of one season, who knows how they will progress and how good they will be four years from now

if this class is so good how come they can't win a Big East game?

Where did you see me say that they are so good? How good a class is isn't determined by how well they do their freshmen year. You think any nova fan thought the recruiting class of Arcidiacono and Ochefu was going to be their winningest class of all time? You don't know they will progress. And if you wanna talk crap on these kids for not winning a big east maybe you shouldn't be around for when these kids right the ship the next years

I'll tell you one thing, it won't be "these kids" on the current team, it will be our freshmen next year and the following year. As other schools bring in ready to win freshmen classes, we cannot depend on these guys to "right the ship." This is the Big East, you either have it or you don't, unfortunately no one on this team has show they can be an impact player in the Big East, nor have any of them shown there's hope for them to develop into impact players in this caliber conference their sophomore years and so on.


Yea maybe Shamorie Ponds will be our best player on future tournament teams, maybe Jordan Ticker will come and average 20 a night. But I'll tell YOU one thing, if you don't think Kassoum Yakwe and Yankuba Sima can be great players for this program I don't know what you've been watching all year. If you think Mussini and Ellison can't continue to improve over four years, so be it.

Obviously future classes will have more talent. I never said the 2015 class was going to win us NCAA tournament games by themselves. But if these kids keep playing hard, improve year to year, and contribute on future very good SJU teams, I can say with full confidence they will be looked upon as a great class in SJU history. A class that took beating after beating their freshmen year but didn't quit or back down. They will come back, and with future players such as Lovett, Ponds, Ahmed, hopefully Tucker, Wilson, etc, they will bring St. John's basketball back.

everything will come in time ,,,they are setting up a system where it fits them and there players
 
[. The one thing I can say with certainty having followed the team closely since 1981 is that the 2015 and 2016 recruiting classes are the best we have had since the 1983 and 1984 classes. In fact they could turn out better. .

RMN, you're one of my favorite posters of all time but that statement is just silly. Not one player in the last two classes comes in with significantly better expectations than Tarik Turner, forget the fact he came in with two other top 10 recruits, and they came in one year after a two man class that both played in the NBA. Sealy/Werdann/Sprolling/Buchanan much better too, and at the risk of Fun having a heart attack neither the 15 or 16 class matches up with even the guys who did make it to campus in Lavin's one big class, forget about the ones who cam later or the one that never did. So having two okay classes in a row is nice but it would be nicer to have one great one followed by one okay one. I'm happy with the talent but not nearly as much so as I have been with the three classes above and not that much happier than about a half a dozen other periods over the years. Until RF proves he's really Dirk and not Sergio and Bashir that he's better than James Scott then we have a stellar one man class. The two useful pieces of the class of 15 are projects and then we have Lovett, who hopefully makes me forget I was ever this cynical.

I'd take Norm's DJ Kennedy, Horne, Burrell, etc. class over the 2015 class.

This is a little unfair. That class had 4 years to grow and get better, and probably would've never seen the NCAA tournament if Hardy never came here. You've only seen this class for 3/4s of one season, who knows how they will progress and how good they will be four years from now

if this class is so good how come they can't win a Big East game?

Where did you see me say that they are so good? How good a class is isn't determined by how well they do their freshmen year. You think any nova fan thought the recruiting class of Arcidiacono and Ochefu was going to be their winningest class of all time? You don't know they will progress. And if you wanna talk crap on these kids for not winning a big east maybe you shouldn't be around for when these kids right the ship the next years

I'll tell you one thing, it won't be "these kids" on the current team, it will be our freshmen next year and the following year. As other schools bring in ready to win freshmen classes, we cannot depend on these guys to "right the ship." This is the Big East, you either have it or you don't, unfortunately no one on this team has show they can be an impact player in the Big East, nor have any of them shown there's hope for them to develop into impact players in this caliber conference their sophomore years and so on.


Yea maybe Shamorie Ponds will be our best player on future tournament teams, maybe Jordan Ticker will come and average 20 a night. But I'll tell YOU one thing, if you don't think Kassoum Yakwe and Yankuba Sima can be great players for this program I don't know what you've been watching all year. If you think Mussini and Ellison can't continue to improve over four years, so be it.

Obviously future classes will have more talent. I never said the 2015 class was going to win us NCAA tournament games by themselves. But if these kids keep playing hard, improve year to year, and contribute on future very good SJU teams, I can say with full confidence they will be looked upon as a great class in SJU history. A class that took beating after beating their freshmen year but didn't quit or back down. They will come back, and with future players such as Lovett, Ponds, Ahmed, hopefully Tucker, Wilson, etc, they will bring St. John's basketball back.

Agree the players that stay will improve but to be great players could be a little over the top Yawke if he improves can be a valuable player in terms offshoot blocking, rebounds same for Sima to be great they would have to improve their offenisive game a ton Framkly, not to be negative they will be good players but think we would have seen rays of great by now even though we are talking about Feshmen. Perhaps we have a diff opinion on the term great
 
This thread feels like a giant zit of frustration about losing getting squeezed until it pops. Is it possible that the staff is setting a harder task for themselves by aiming for a pro style offense?
 
That's wise. You should in fact have settled before trial, because none of your evidence is relevant. I didn't say no one criticized Lavin ever for anything. No one criticized Lavin longer and more unfairly and more vociferously than I did. I merely asked you to please name the things Chris Mullin is getting a pass for that Lavin was pilloried for. That you have not been able to do. You have not been able to do it because your premise is false.[/quote]

Masterful ... the debate was horrifically heading towards a Chris Rock quote "Don't argue! You cannot win, you cannot beat a woman in a arguement. It's impossble you will not win. Cause men, we are handicapped when it comes to arguing cause we have a need to make sense" but glad that it was averted ...

On your quote "evolution insures that over the long haul stupid ideas kill off the stupid people who thought of them" however, if one prescribes to the multi-level selection evolutionary theory then it is quite possible for stupid ideas like fundamentalism, blind patriotism or even stupid people like Steve Lavin to survive ...
 
This has become one confusing thread. Now the merits of the 2015 class are being debated. Hard to say how good Sima gets. While he is not a "project", there is a lot of work needed to be a top notch Big East center. As for Yakwe, he needs to improve a lot but has more going for him than Sima. He is, without question, an elite athlete. He is also very young and learning fast. He even made a 12 foot jumper against Georgetown. It took Pointer a few years to do that. Mussini, on the other hand, has the opposite problem. He can handle the ball well enough to be a passable pg, and can shoot from deep. But he has major physical limitations that need to be hidden. I see him as a 15-20 minute player that needs to be off the ball for all of it. He also needs to be on the court with a dynamic playmaker (Lovett) and other deep threats (Freud and Bashir). Ellison can't be as bad as many of us think. Whether he gets a lot of floor time going forward depends on his level of improvement. Part of coaching is getting your players to commit to working hard in practice and in the off season. That was Mullin's forte. He should be good at getting that point across.
 
St. Jean has been around the game his whole life. People have praised his basketball acumen. I actually don't even care at this point if he's doing the coaching if it's being done well. I'd like to see Mullin not be 100 percent figurehead, though, and do some coaching.

But if he is going to be 100 percent figurehead, I will say that $2 million a year is a lot to pay for that.

We were warned that this season would be rough by all the reasonable posters here, though, so judging anyone on their roles right now when the better team is a year away is slightly premature.
 
St. Jean has been around the game his whole life. People have praised his basketball acumen. I actually don't even care at this point if he's doing the coaching if it's being done well. I'd like to see Mullin not be 100 percent figurehead, though, and do some coaching.

But if he is going to be 100 percent figurehead, I will say that $2 million a year is a lot to pay for that.

We were warned that this season would be rough by all the reasonable posters here, though, so judging anyone on their roles right now when the better team is a year away is slightly premature.

Here may be the completely reasonable truth: That Mullin defers to Slice and Matt A. in recruiting, because they have more experience evaluating and getting us to be finalists for grade AAA talent - Mullin can help seal the deal, but these are bonafide recruiters. I also think Mullin has deferred to Slice and St. Jean on in game coaching because Slice has had HC experience and St. Jean appears to have the presence, moxie and talent to do it right now. In effect Mullin becomes the GM on the bench. That is completely legitimate and understandable at this phase of his coaching career. But he has to be visibly present and clearly be the head coach to players even if he is just in the huddle leading the timeout, but allowing those guys to have a strong voice in diagramming plays or setting a strategy. But to me, in the long run, that has to change and evolve and Mullin must seize at least some of that.
 
St. Jean has been around the game his whole life. People have praised his basketball acumen. I actually don't even care at this point if he's doing the coaching if it's being done well. I'd like to see Mullin not be 100 percent figurehead, though, and do some coaching.

But if he is going to be 100 percent figurehead, I will say that $2 million a year is a lot to pay for that.

We were warned that this season would be rough by all the reasonable posters here, though, so judging anyone on their roles right now when the better team is a year away is slightly premature.

Here may be the completely reasonable truth: That Mullin defers to Slice and Matt A. in recruiting, because they have more experience evaluating and getting us to be finalists for grade AAA talent - Mullin can help seal the deal, but these are bonafide recruiters. I also think Mullin has deferred to Slice and St. Jean on in game coaching because Slice has had HC experience and St. Jean appears to have the presence, moxie and talent to do it right now. In effect Mullin becomes the GM on the bench. That is completely legitimate and understandable at this phase of his coaching career. But he has to be visibly present and clearly be the head coach to players even if he is just in the huddle leading the timeout, but allowing those guys to have a strong voice in diagramming plays or setting a strategy. But to me, in the long run, that has to change and evolve and Mullin must seize at least some of that.

Well said!
 
St. Jean has been around the game his whole life. People have praised his basketball acumen. I actually don't even care at this point if he's doing the coaching if it's being done well. I'd like to see Mullin not be 100 percent figurehead, though, and do some coaching.

But if he is going to be 100 percent figurehead, I will say that $2 million a year is a lot to pay for that.

We were warned that this season would be rough by all the reasonable posters here, though, so judging anyone on their roles right now when the better team is a year away is slightly premature.

Here may be the completely reasonable truth: That Mullin defers to Slice and Matt A. in recruiting, because they have more experience evaluating and getting us to be finalists for grade AAA talent - Mullin can help seal the deal, but these are bonafide recruiters. I also think Mullin has deferred to Slice and St. Jean on in game coaching because Slice has had HC experience and St. Jean appears to have the presence, moxie and talent to do it right now. In effect Mullin becomes the GM on the bench. That is completely legitimate and understandable at this phase of his coaching career. But he has to be visibly present and clearly be the head coach to players even if he is just in the huddle leading the timeout, but allowing those guys to have a strong voice in diagramming plays or setting a strategy. But to me, in the long run, that has to change and evolve and Mullin must seize at least some of that.

This post seems to get the train back on the track. CM put together an incredible staff, very quickly, and is leaning on their strengths. I don't see a problem with this. It's a combo of confidence that you belong where you are but smart enough to know that you need to respect the transition from a high level player on the court, to an NBA front office job, to the head coach of a Div 1 basketball team. There's a learning curve, and he's on it, and appears to be embracing it.
 
After reading the direction this thread has taken, I'm starting to feel like the guy pictured in Edvard Munch's "The Scream."
 
To all of you who are saying that Coach Mullin is not involved with actual coaching during the game, I am not sure you are actually watching the games.
 
This thread has been as useless as any I have ever seen. We all knew, or should have when the season started, that this was going to be a brutal year. You can't make a silk scarf out of a sows ear. Well we are now into our season and it has been bad. We have to just suck it up and realize this is part of a process as we convulse through and from a putrid program into a high level program. They're growing pains and that is what we are experiencing right now.We all should have known they were coming.

We have a great coach, a super coaching staff, and they have some wonderful recruits coming in. They had to throw together enough bodies to play the season. We have had injuries, guys playing out of position. They are young, most new to the college game let alone playing with each other. Why is it so difficult to just get through this season. The kids aren't happy the coaches aren't happy but these are the cards we are holding until this season finishes.
I think as fans of this team, the greatest thing we can do right now is to root them on. Trying to figure out whether the coach speaks to the team enough, or if he wears the wrong kind of shirt, or shoes or anything else is counter productive. I know I am going to get blasted for this post, but enough is enough. Let's get behind our guys and our coaches and support them through the rest of this year. I am betting things are going to get much better!
 
the debate was horrifically heading towards a Chris Rock quote "Don't argue! You cannot win, you cannot beat a woman in a arguement. It's impossble you will not win. Cause men, we are handicapped when it comes to arguing cause we have a need to make sense" but glad that it was averted ...

On your quote "evolution insures that over the long haul stupid ideas kill off the stupid people who thought of them" however, if one prescribes to the multi-level selection evolutionary theory then it is quite possible for stupid ideas like fundamentalism, blind patriotism or even stupid people like Steve Lavin to survive ...

Of course my exchange with good old MJM was all in good fun and I am fortunate it played out as a draw. My motive - and everyone has one - is to ridicule those who doubt Mullin's ability to master as simple a matter as coaching college basketball and to make sure that nothing nice is said about Lavin, ever. Because Lavin sucked.

As to evolution, it's a crock. Darwin said if he was right there'd be evidence in the fossil record to prove his theory and there is not. No less an authority than Stephen Jay Gould admitted the whole thing was nonsense. That's why its proponents spray-painted moths and stapled them to trees: because there's less evidence of OJ's innocence than there is for Darwinism. Man is the most pernicious species of vermin nature has ever suffered to crawl across the face of the earth. If homo sapiens is the apex of natural selection then Gaia is insane.
 
Ok counselor. My proof. Lawmanfan. You were wrong in your previous post where you said and I quote "When Lavin was coach for 10 months he got a pass for everything. Everyone was still giddy from the hire" because lawman was one of a couple who were against him from day 1 and Lawman and I used to go back and forth over stuff with Lavin when Lawman would knock him and I would defend him. I even texted lawman after Lavin got fired admitting to Lawman that he was right and I was wrong

I'll recap the discussion, because you seem to have lost your way.

A poster asked why you were being so hard on Mullin, after giving Norm a pass, and then Lavin a pass. You said it was because

"he [mullin] definitely is getting a pass on stuff that people didn't give lavin a pass for because people were Mullin sju fans."

"[Mullin is given a pass for] the same thing people were killing Lavin for [when] actually I saw Lavin doing more on the sidelines"

I asked you to name those things that Lavin got killed for that Mullin is getting a pass on. That was all I asked. You came up with (1) people allegedly upset about Mike Dunlap being the X and O guy (which I think never happened and quite the opposite) (2) complaints about the Pitt game (which I find highly unlikely) and (3) Bobre (who is unhinged). The only thing on that list that's even comparable is the the X And O thing and lots of people are not giving Mullin a pass about that. Quite the opposite: lots of people are wondering why Slice addresses the team during time outs and what Saint Jean is doing with the white board and why Mullin sits on the scorer's table rather than on the bench imparting wisdom to his players. So he's not getting a pass. His seeming detachment is in fact the thing he is most criticized for. It is in fact what leads people like you to wonder whether he can be a successful head coach.

If I had asked you to merely name someone who criticized Lavin you could have mentioned: me. I killed him for four years with language so brutal that he and his wife and even Ron Linfonte blocked me on Twitter despite the fact that I never addressed any of them directly; in the wake of something I wrote about Cap on a website that a moderator of this site held a super secret vote to have me banned from here, based on something he read elsewhere of his own volition. I take a back seat to NO ONE in killing Lavin and certainly not the person whose name you mentioned that I won't repeat lest he appear and write a 9-paragraph essay on the differences between the box and one and the alley opp.

Ten months was hyperbole and is anyway relevant only because the OP mentioned how long you hung on for Norm. Most relationships have a honeymoon period. Even Lavin and I had one, briefly. You meet a girl and she has a lilting laugh that makes your heart sing. Three years later she laughs one too many times and you cut her head off and dissolve her body in a vat of lye in the basement. Because what was once charming is no longer. You do not seem to find Mullin's new laugh as beguiling 10 months in as you find Lavin's tired grating cackle after 100. That's odd, considering what Chris Mullin has meant to the university and what he ha accomplished in his basketball career - as opposed to Lavin, a gaseous lazy oleaginous charlatan. It's odd.


Oh and 2nd piece of Evidence or Poster of Evidence. Doc Butler. He practically got run off the board in the beginning for being critical of Lavin and I'm pretty sure he called him out after the Fordham game and in hindsight he was right

Doc Butler has disapproved of every SJU coach since Joe Buck Freeman. This year he wrote a long post IN ALL CAPS about how Mullin was a failure after the first exhibition loss in November. Mullin did not get a pass from Doc Butler.


Oh and The Burrell thing that you don't think happened after the pitt game ? wrong again

http://espn.go.com/espn/print?id=6140132

Burrells quote which Lavin most definitely got knocked for that was taken out of context by a couple of people " And there was this from another one of Lavin's seniors, another in an endless parade of them, Justin Burrell: "He doesn't really coach. I don't know what he does."

Now you're just making stuff up. I never mentioned Burrell, you did. You said that the Burrell quote spawned discussions in which Lavin got killed. All I said was that it was highly unlikely that Lavin got killed in the aftermath of the Pitt win, which was about the most important win in recent history and one of the more exciting basketball games I've ever seen. That Burrell said something in the Post is not proof of a discussion that you Lavin got killed here. And unless you claiming that Chris Mullin is getting a pass from Burrell, who cares what Burrell said.


Oh and another since I can't find redmen.com archives going back that far, Further proof that Lavin didn't get a pass on everything his first 10 months. Thread after the fordham game on the jungle

http://johnnyjungle.com/forum/index.php?topic=5042.0

Oh and this one too since you claim the burden of proof resides with me even though you accuse me without proof

http://johnnyjungle.com/forum/index.php?topic=5201.0

Defense rests my case

That's wise. You should in fact have settled before trial, because none of your evidence is relevant. I didn't say no one criticized Lavin ever for anything. No one criticized Lavin longer and more unfairly and more vociferously than I did. I merely asked you to please name the things Chris Mullin is getting a pass for that Lavin was pilloried for. That you have not been able to do. You have not been able to do it because your premise is false.

I'll try and keep this short but that usually doesn't seem work for me.:) I didn't say or at least wasn't my point that people criticized the fact that Dunlap was the X&O coach. But some people did most definitely knock Lavin for his own lack of X&O's and Dunlap taking a large roll in some of the huddles during breaks. ( or they would give Dunlap all the credit a backhanded slap without saying it to Lavin ) This most definitely happened because I remember specifically sitting in carnesseca with some of the guys here and starting to pay attention to it and watching dunlap sitting not even with the coaching staff but sitting on the baseline watching the game taking notes etc. And I'm not saying it was widespread criticism but there were definitely some that were knocking Lavin for that shortcoming of his and there were definitely some people knocking him for sitting next to keady talking to him during games not much unlike what Mullin does with Richmond now. And if anything Lavin was more animated than Mullin on the sideline but to be fair there were games that I would watch and the people that had mentioned it about Lavin weren't wrong because I would notice it too once and a while because our seats are right behind the bench in the upper section and right across from the bench at msg so it's an area you have your eyes toward a lot when the ball is on that side of the court. And there really wasn't a need for me to say anything because we were winning and that 1st year once we got past the fordham game or maybe a little further than that we went on the best run I had seen as a season ticket holder so there wasn't anything for me to complain about personally

I'm not going to name names because quite frankly everyone is entitled to their own opinion but while there are certainly people like me sometimes and others who have knocked Mullin there are others who aren't going to because he was the all time great player here and the best thing for a fan. I get that. It doesn't bother me. All I'm saying is if someone like wearesju wants to know why I'm quicker to criticize I think I gave him a reasonable explanation.


I'm pretty sure about the pitt game I wrote " at some point after the pitt game ". that wasn't me implying right after the pitt game the next day. But that Burrell quote happened and some people used it at some point that season implying that Dunlap should be getting most of the credit for the teams success. Again that most definitely happened. You can't prove it didn't and there are no more archives here so I can't go back and pull threads so if you don't believe me that's on you but I'm not inventing this

Bobre we agree. That's progress

What you did say is " when lavin was coach for 10 months he got a pass for everything. Everyone was giddy from the hire "

Those are your words not mine. It's just not true and I gave you the links from johnnyjungle to prove it. Those links were from Lavins 1st year and one of them was after the fordham game. And not everyone was giddy. Lawman wasn't and I don't remember if Doc was in favor of the hire but I remember him knocking his coaching early on and after the fordham game. That's 2 posters there and there were a couple others on this site. And yeah we can joke about doc knocking coaches but this site has been around since Jarvis and Doc has been right all the time. In my opinion he is the best poster on the board in breaking down a game. Not that I want to feed my friend lawman's ego either but I have sat with him at games and during games him and weathermannyc are almost as good at doc breaking down what they see on the floor as it's happening. So Doc knocked Lavin early and you and I didn't. And it turns out Doc was right and both of us were wrong. Who knows. maybe Doc is right with Mullin. Do I think Doc knows as much as Mullin about hoops ? I think Mullin knows more about hoops than all of us posters combined but it might not translate to great coach. Time will tell

Now if you said " most people gave Lavin a pass the first 10 months" I'd agree with you except for the fordham game because I think that game unhinged me too I just don't remember if I posted on that thread. But it definitely wasn't everyone

Lastly you accused me of having motives for my criticism. Apparently according to you my motives are in support of Lavin that's completely ridiculous. It doesn't even make sense. I was ecstatic when Mullin got hired. I proved it by pulling the thread when he got hired so every one could see what I wrote back then. Everyone who sits with me at basketball games here knows how I feel and everyone who I talk to on the board privately knows how I feel. I've gone from ecstatic to cautious. That's it. But I've learned my lesson about being blindly optimistic with coaches at st johns because history shows I'm bound to be disappointed

I was on the fence when Lavin got fired. part of me was ready to move on and part of me wanted him to stay to finish recruiting and if we had a year like this year then fire him but I knocked him plenty the final 2 years because we should have been in the tourney by Dlo's 3rd year. As long as we got Mullin or one of the Hurley's I was going to be happy once he got fired
 
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