Mike Vacc SJU Critique

In my opinion NCAA 3 out of 5 years is not acceptable. There is no reason in the Big East, St Johns can't be an NCAA Tourney team every season with missing the Tourney an aberration. Clean house in the athletic dept and run things professionally with strong leadership that lives by clarity rather than political (CYA based) decision making. Stop whining about disadvantages and focus upon advantages. They are there.

Lots of people agree with you, but not me.

Going to the NCAA's in 4 of 5 years, or every year is a pipe dream. Back before a conference schedule, we were a name brand who would play a much easier schedule and get in on the basis of our reputation. Most D1 schools never played on TV and as such a grains of sand on the beach. Now the whole process is so highly structured, with nearly everyone in conference, that everyone gets TV time, everybody gets noticed if they are any good. If you look at all the "somewhat" big time programs with garbage records this year and no chance of an NCAA bid, it's startling.

Three bid every 5 years? Sign me up.

If you are looking for an elite program, 4 out of 5 is not unreasonable. 68 teams get invited. I would think there is plenty of room to repeat 75% of the time vs. 60%. Big East got invites to 60% of the league. 3 bids every 5 years looks good with what we have now, but we have 2 bids in the last 5 years and there is an uproar to change the whole program top to bottom for 1 more invite.
 
You don't get into the NCAA Tournament based upon TV appearances or even on recruiting alone. Putting together talent is one thing. Using it appropriately and keeping a proper cycle of players that fit the needs of your system is another. Both important components.
Our opponent on Friday, San Diego St University has been to the Tournament every year for the past 6 years with an at large bid every one of those with the exception of one Conf. Championship. They barely get any national TV exposure and are dwarfed by much bigger names in their recruiting sandbox. They have a system. They stick with it and recruit accordingly. The point being that as I specified, in the Big East (meaning as it is today), there is no reason St Johns should not be going to the Tournament every year with not going, being an aberration.
 
The bottom line is Lavin should be offered an extension. It would also be nice if they made further improvements in Carnesecca Arena or just knock the whole thing down and build a place where you can actually sit with enough room for your butt and without breaking your back

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/stjo/genrel/auto_pdf/2011-carneseccainitiative-pdf.pdf

Notre Dame, for example, had the former chairman of Sears write a $25 million check to update The Joyce Center

Unfortunately, I don't think we have anyone rushing to write an outsized check to do the same with CA.
 
If you are looking for an elite program, 4 out of 5 is not unreasonable. 68 teams get invited. I would think there is plenty of room to repeat 75% of the time vs. 60%. Big East got invites to 60% of the league. 3 bids every 5 years looks good with what we have now, but we have 2 bids in the last 5 years and there is an uproar to change the whole program top to bottom for 1 more invite.

Fans of elite programs expect their team not only to go to the Tournament but to make deep runs every year. If you are a Duke fan, less than a National Championship any year is disappointing. It is not a reasonable expectation but Final Four is an expectation for most Duke fans.

KY, KS, AZ, UNC, Mich St, Ucon. Those fans all expect deep runs every year no matter what. In the past you could have said the same about teams like Indiana, Michigan and UCLA. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there were even boosters at Michigan that wanted to hire a bigger name than Fisher the year he won the National Championship.
 
I don't always agree with Vacc, but I respect him unlike Braziller. He is unbiased and tells it like it is.

Honestly, I'm ready to part ways with Lavin IF we can back it up with a full blown run at Archie Miller, Billy Donovan, Shaka Smart, Gregg Marshall, or one of the Hurley brothers.

I think think Lavin deserves more time, but I also realize that there is something about him off the court that about 1/4 of our fans dislike on a very personal level. Another 1/4 (or so) of our fans dislike him for basketball and basketball related stuff. Still, many posters--some very reasonable are completely on the fence and are swayed in either direction depending on what's happening. Even the beat writer despises him. It would be such an uphill climb for him to beat that.
 
I don't always agree with Vacc, but I respect him unlike Braziller. He is unbiased and tells it like it is.

Honestly, I'm ready to part ways with Lavin IF we can back it up with a full blown run at Archie Miller, Billy Donovan, Shaka Smart, Gregg Marshall, or one of the Hurley brothers.

I think think Lavin deserves more time, but I also realize that there is something about him off the court that about 1/4 of our fans dislike on a very personal level. Another 1/4 (or so) of our fans dislike him for basketball and basketball related stuff. Still, many posters--some very reasonable are completely on the fence and are swayed in either direction depending on what's happening. Even the beat writer despises him. It would be such an uphill climb for him to beat that.
Have you been abducted by aliens? :)
 
In my opinion NCAA 3 out of 5 years is not acceptable. There is no reason in the Big East, St Johns can't be an NCAA Tourney team every season with missing the Tourney an aberration. Clean house in the athletic dept and run things professionally with strong leadership that lives by clarity rather than political (CYA based) decision making. Stop whining about disadvantages and focus upon advantages. They are there.

Lots of people agree with you, but not me.

Going to the NCAA's in 4 of 5 years, or every year is a pipe dream. Back before a conference schedule, we were a name brand who would play a much easier schedule and get in on the basis of our reputation. Most D1 schools never played on TV and as such a grains of sand on the beach. Now the whole process is so highly structured, with nearly everyone in conference, that everyone gets TV time, everybody gets noticed if they are any good. If you look at all the "somewhat" big time programs with garbage records this year and no chance of an NCAA bid, it's startling.

Three bid every 5 years? Sign me up.

So, we're 2 for 5 in the Lavin era and looking at an almost complete rebuild next year. I do not see why we can't at least achieve Xavier-type results, given the coaching budget.
 
I don't always agree with Vacc, but I respect him unlike Braziller. He is unbiased and tells it like it is.

Honestly, I'm ready to part ways with Lavin IF we can back it up with a full blown run at Archie Miller, Billy Donovan, Shaka Smart, Gregg Marshall, or one of the Hurley brothers.

I think think Lavin deserves more time, but I also realize that there is something about him off the court that about 1/4 of our fans dislike on a very personal level. Another 1/4 (or so) of our fans dislike him for basketball and basketball related stuff. Still, many posters--some very reasonable are completely on the fence and are swayed in either direction depending on what's happening. Even the beat writer despises him. It would be such an uphill climb for him to beat that.
Have you been abducted by aliens? :)

Contrary to popular belief, I'm not thrilled with what has unfolded over the last five years. Admittedly, part of that is due to the high expectations I had for the past two seasons when the 2011 class was assembled.

Regardless of what anyone says, we are relevant under Lavin. We weren't under Norm...ever. Lavin won with Norm's guys...true...but Norm never did. He went 6-12 with 10 juniors and a fifth year senior (Mase Jr.--his highest ranked recruit) and 6-12 the year before. He wasn't going to win with them. The poor guy couldn't even identify who his best players were.

I give Lavin a lot of room because of how irrelevant were were for so long before he took over and the unprecedented disaster he had to recruit for in 2011. I personally know the value of experience...quality walkons and veteran end of the roster guys help establish continuity, identity, and can mitigate the damage of guys like Moe or Sampson going pro, Thomas and ADR not qualifying, or Garrett and Polee transferring. Lavin never had that. We're relevant now. If we move in a different, aggressive (and wise) direction now, the next coach will be much better off than Lavin was. The fans are too divided and our fans our a nasty, unforgiving bunch.
 
The bottom line is Lavin should be offered an extension. It would also be nice if they made further improvements in Carnesecca Arena or just knock the whole thing down and build a place where you can actually sit with enough room for your butt and without breaking your back

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/stjo/genrel/auto_pdf/2011-carneseccainitiative-pdf.pdf

Notre Dame, for example, had the former chairman of Sears write a $25 million check to update The Joyce Center

Unfortunately, I don't think we have anyone rushing to write an outsized check to do the same with CA.

And with all that and billion dollar endowment they still lost money with their nationally ranked basketball program. Something is not right.
 
Fun
Yes, but I think he was stating that if you are prepared to let go off a somewhat succesful coach, you had better be prepared to replace him with a big time coach. And I do not think the school would be prepared to do that.
I agree Lavin seems to be a happy medium for the school, but if replaced I think the school goes the other way instead of moving forward. That is why I would rather keep him warts and all.

My point about posters complaints about Lavin is that the things they complain about, ineligibilities, supensions, weed, self promoting would be far worse with an even more succesful coach.

This president takes over a school with declining admissions and other educational areas that he would like to improve. The quickest way to turn that around is have a successful St. Johns Basketball program. Look what a winning program did for a school like UConn that had none of the tradition that we have. I believe the President is aware of this, the question is how much are the willing to commit $. I hope he goes all in. I am tired of hearing that St. Johns can never be what it was; why? Does Gonzaga, a small Catholic College in eastern Washington state, have more resources? No, they have consistently won and have built on a small foundation. Even BT intimated this in his interview with Joe and Evan. "Chris Mullin is not walking through the door". I disagree, just win at a level like Gonzaga and a few good NY kids will want to stay home. This program should be the beacon of the Big East not Villanova or Providence.
 
Fun
Yes, but I think he was stating that if you are prepared to let go off a somewhat succesful coach, you had better be prepared to replace him with a big time coach. And I do not think the school would be prepared to do that.
I agree Lavin seems to be a happy medium for the school, but if replaced I think the school goes the other way instead of moving forward. That is why I would rather keep him warts and all.

My point about posters complaints about Lavin is that the things they complain about, ineligibilities, supensions, weed, self promoting would be far worse with an even more succesful coach.

This president takes over a school with declining admissions and other educational areas that he would like to improve. The quickest way to turn that around is have a successful St. Johns Basketball program. Look what a winning program did for a school like UConn that had none of the tradition that we have. I believe the President is aware of this, the question is how much are the willing to commit $. I hope he goes all in. I am tired of hearing that St. Johns can never be what it was; why? Does Gonzaga, a small Catholic College in eastern Washington state, have more resources? No, they have consistently won and have built on a small foundation. Even BT intimated this in his interview with Joe and Evan. "Chris Mullin is not walking through the door". I disagree, just win at a level like Gonzaga and a few good NY kids will want to stay home. This program should be the beacon of the Big East not Villanova or Providence.

It is not just about basketball but about national publicity for the university. God only knows what the University of Southern New Hampshire has been spending on television commercials to gain attention to its programs. Having a positive national profile in sports like football and basketball grow enrollment and alumni giving. Going backwards and lowering St. John's profile in the sport would be a huge mistake.
 
You don't get into the NCAA Tournament based upon TV appearances or even on recruiting alone. Putting together talent is one thing. Using it appropriately and keeping a proper cycle of players that fit the needs of your system is another. Both important components.
Our opponent on Friday, San Diego St University has been to the Tournament every year for the past 6 years with an at large bid every one of those with the exception of one Conf. Championship. They barely get any national TV exposure and are dwarfed by much bigger names in their recruiting sandbox. They have a system. They stick with it and recruit accordingly. The point being that as I specified, in the Big East (meaning as it is today), there is no reason St Johns should not be going to the Tournament every year with not going, being an aberration.

Do you really think that San Diego St. would have 6 bids in a row if they were in a major conference. Most people refer to the mountain west as a mid major and as such, even though they were 1st place in their league at 14-4, and sport a 27-9 record, they are exactly one seed better than SJU, a fifth place Big East team and downgraded by the NCAA seeding because of Obekpa's suspension. You might as well compare Harvard's success in dominating the Ivy League.

In our league, Villanova at this point should go every year. Georgetown pretty also. After that, it's one big fray. Providence is an up program now, so is Butler. Last season Creighton and Marquette were near the top, and will probably become more competitive. Xavier's not a bad program, and for a while this season Seton Hall seemed as tough as nails.

We now have over 20 years and 5 coaches to return to the gold standard of post season most years under Carnsecca - Repeat MOST years. Even Lou would fall short of your standard.
 
We all would like to see an ELITE type program at St. John's, I am not so sure St. John's is willing to do what it takes to have an ELITE program! I think they want a good program, and they are paying for that, but doing little else. Elite, no I think that is beyond reality!
 
You don't get into the NCAA Tournament based upon TV appearances or even on recruiting alone. Putting together talent is one thing. Using it appropriately and keeping a proper cycle of players that fit the needs of your system is another. Both important components.
Our opponent on Friday, San Diego St University has been to the Tournament every year for the past 6 years with an at large bid every one of those with the exception of one Conf. Championship. They barely get any national TV exposure and are dwarfed by much bigger names in their recruiting sandbox. They have a system. They stick with it and recruit accordingly. The point being that as I specified, in the Big East (meaning as it is today), there is no reason St Johns should not be going to the Tournament every year with not going, being an aberration.

Do you really think that San Diego St. would have 6 bids in a row if they were in a major conference. Most people refer to the mountain west as a mid major and as such, even though they were 1st place in their league at 14-4, and sport a 27-9 record, they are exactly one seed better than SJU, a fifth place Big East team and downgraded by the NCAA seeding because of Obekpa's suspension. You might as well compare Harvard's success in dominating the Ivy League.

In our league, Villanova at this point should go every year. Georgetown pretty also. After that, it's one big fray. Providence is an up program now, so is Butler. Last season Creighton and Marquette were near the top, and will probably become more competitive. Xavier's not a bad program, and for a while this season Seton Hall seemed as tough as nails.

We now have over 20 years and 5 coaches to return to the gold standard of post season most years under Carnsecca - Repeat MOST years. Even Lou would fall short of your standard.

Nova to most observers doesn't have an NBA player on their roster. Yet they are the crown jewel of the conference.

They recruit kids that fit their system and style of play. They also haven't had the recurring ineligible kids, transfers out and suspensions. So there is a consistency there.

We don't have a system. We were supposed to be a running team that pressed defensively all game long. But it's taken 4 years to see any semblance of that.

Now we're chasing int'l kids.

It's consistency vs chaos. And that is why tourney bids have been out of reach. 10 wins in this conference should be an annual occurrence for us.
 
You don't get into the NCAA Tournament based upon TV appearances or even on recruiting alone. Putting together talent is one thing. Using it appropriately and keeping a proper cycle of players that fit the needs of your system is another. Both important components.
Our opponent on Friday, San Diego St University has been to the Tournament every year for the past 6 years with an at large bid every one of those with the exception of one Conf. Championship. They barely get any national TV exposure and are dwarfed by much bigger names in their recruiting sandbox. They have a system. They stick with it and recruit accordingly. The point being that as I specified, in the Big East (meaning as it is today), there is no reason St Johns should not be going to the Tournament every year with not going, being an aberration.

Do you really think that San Diego St. would have 6 bids in a row if they were in a major conference. Most people refer to the mountain west as a mid major and as such, even though they were 1st place in their league at 14-4, and sport a 27-9 record, they are exactly one seed better than SJU, a fifth place Big East team and downgraded by the NCAA seeding because of Obekpa's suspension. You might as well compare Harvard's success in dominating the Ivy League.

In our league, Villanova at this point should go every year. Georgetown pretty also.

We now have over 20 years and 5 coaches to return to the gold standard of post season most years under Carnsecca - Repeat MOST years. Even Lou would fall short of your standard.

Sounds like you are arguing with yourself with your convoluted Villanova envy. There is zero reason other than the program being run better, that they should be in the Tournament every year and St Johns shouldn't.
 
While making the NCAA tournament 4 out of every 5 years is great, I think it's more important to want our teams to win games there. I rather make it half the time and get to the sweet 16 more often than not.
 
You don't get into the NCAA Tournament based upon TV appearances or even on recruiting alone. Putting together talent is one thing. Using it appropriately and keeping a proper cycle of players that fit the needs of your system is another. Both important components.
Our opponent on Friday, San Diego St University has been to the Tournament every year for the past 6 years with an at large bid every one of those with the exception of one Conf. Championship. They barely get any national TV exposure and are dwarfed by much bigger names in their recruiting sandbox. They have a system. They stick with it and recruit accordingly. The point being that as I specified, in the Big East (meaning as it is today), there is no reason St Johns should not be going to the Tournament every year with not going, being an aberration.



Do you really think that San Diego St. would have 6 bids in a row if they were in a major conference. Most people refer to the mountain west as a mid major and as such, even though they were 1st place in their league at 14-4, and sport a 27-9 record, they are exactly one seed better than SJU, a fifth place Big East team and downgraded by the NCAA seeding because of Obekpa's suspension. You might as well compare Harvard's success in dominating the Ivy League.

In our league, Villanova at this point should go every year. Georgetown pretty also. After that, it's one big fray. Providence is an up program now, so is Butler. Last season Creighton and Marquette were near the top, and will probably become more competitive. Xavier's not a bad program, and for a while this season Seton Hall seemed as tough as nails.

We now have over 20 years and 5 coaches to return to the gold standard of post season most years under Carnsecca - Repeat MOST years. Even Lou would fall short of your standard.

Beast in Lou's last 17 years of coaching, he made the NCAA tournament 15 times and the NIT twice, the second time wining the NIT championship the year Sealy and Werdann were rookies. Also we were ranked in the top 20 every single season of 17 with the exception of the year they won the NIT championship. I would take that over the next 17 years in a heartbeat.
 
You don't get into the NCAA Tournament based upon TV appearances or even on recruiting alone. Putting together talent is one thing. Using it appropriately and keeping a proper cycle of players that fit the needs of your system is another. Both important components.
Our opponent on Friday, San Diego St University has been to the Tournament every year for the past 6 years with an at large bid every one of those with the exception of one Conf. Championship. They barely get any national TV exposure and are dwarfed by much bigger names in their recruiting sandbox. They have a system. They stick with it and recruit accordingly. The point being that as I specified, in the Big East (meaning as it is today), there is no reason St Johns should not be going to the Tournament every year with not going, being an aberration.

Do you really think that San Diego St. would have 6 bids in a row if they were in a major conference. Most people refer to the mountain west as a mid major and as such, even though they were 1st place in their league at 14-4, and sport a 27-9 record, they are exactly one seed better than SJU, a fifth place Big East team and downgraded by the NCAA seeding because of Obekpa's suspension. You might as well compare Harvard's success in dominating the Ivy League.

In our league, Villanova at this point should go every year. Georgetown pretty also. After that, it's one big fray. Providence is an up program now, so is Butler. Last season Creighton and Marquette were near the top, and will probably become more competitive. Xavier's not a bad program, and for a while this season Seton Hall seemed as tough as nails.

We now have over 20 years and 5 coaches to return to the gold standard of post season most years under Carnsecca - Repeat MOST years. Even Lou would fall short of your standard.

Nova to most observers doesn't have an NBA player on their roster. Yet they are the crown jewel of the conference.

They recruit kids that fit their system and style of play. They also haven't had the recurring ineligible kids, transfers out and suspensions. So there is a consistency there.

We don't have a system. We were supposed to be a running team that pressed defensively all game long. But it's taken 4 years to see any semblance of that.

Now we're chasing int'l kids.

It's consistency vs chaos. And that is why tourney bids have been out of reach. 10 wins in this conference should be an annual occurrence for us.

Jay Wright would have been destroyed here if he took over the irrelevant program Steve Lavin did. It's just not fair or accurate to paint Jay Wright as a saint who runs a drama-free program. I would love to have him here, but let's not pretend he is something he's not.

Wright was in a highly publicized cheating scandal with a Nova student. There were several fights among Nova players over the years, and there was also the drama about Fisher impregnating Scottie Reynolds gf. What about Nova suspending 12 players in 2003 over in the Phone Card Scandal? The two years of probation? The transfers out (King, Yacouba, Armwood, Brzoja, Kennedy, Chennault, Johnson off just in the last five years)? Taylor King's substance abuse? Let's not make them out to be choir boys.

New York Post article from 2005:

In his fourth season, Wright’s seat is getting hotter, and Villanova fans are getting antsy, waiting for their first trip to the NCAA tournament since 1999.
“I’m very aware that [the pressure] is there,” Wright said.

Nova made the tournament 4/5 years from 95-99. Wright took over in 2001 fresh off recruiting New York for the last several years. Lavin took over a team that was 12-24 in conference the prior two seasons and that hadn't made the the tournament in nine seasons.
 
You don't get into the NCAA Tournament based upon TV appearances or even on recruiting alone. Putting together talent is one thing. Using it appropriately and keeping a proper cycle of players that fit the needs of your system is another. Both important components.
Our opponent on Friday, San Diego St University has been to the Tournament every year for the past 6 years with an at large bid every one of those with the exception of one Conf. Championship. They barely get any national TV exposure and are dwarfed by much bigger names in their recruiting sandbox. They have a system. They stick with it and recruit accordingly. The point being that as I specified, in the Big East (meaning as it is today), there is no reason St Johns should not be going to the Tournament every year with not going, being an aberration.

Do you really think that San Diego St. would have 6 bids in a row if they were in a major conference. Most people refer to the mountain west as a mid major and as such, even though they were 1st place in their league at 14-4, and sport a 27-9 record, they are exactly one seed better than SJU, a fifth place Big East team and downgraded by the NCAA seeding because of Obekpa's suspension. You might as well compare Harvard's success in dominating the Ivy League.

In our league, Villanova at this point should go every year. Georgetown pretty also. After that, it's one big fray. Providence is an up program now, so is Butler. Last season Creighton and Marquette were near the top, and will probably become more competitive. Xavier's not a bad program, and for a while this season Seton Hall seemed as tough as nails.

We now have over 20 years and 5 coaches to return to the gold standard of post season most years under Carnsecca - Repeat MOST years. Even Lou would fall short of your standard.

Nova to most observers doesn't have an NBA player on their roster. Yet they are the crown jewel of the conference.

They recruit kids that fit their system and style of play. They also haven't had the recurring ineligible kids, transfers out and suspensions. So there is a consistency there.

We don't have a system. We were supposed to be a running team that pressed defensively all game long. But it's taken 4 years to see any semblance of that.

Now we're chasing int'l kids.

It's consistency vs chaos. And that is why tourney bids have been out of reach. 10 wins in this conference should be an annual occurrence for us.

Jay Wright would have been destroyed here if he took over the irrelevant program Steve Lavin did. It's just not fair or accurate to paint Jay Wright as a saint who runs a drama-free program. I would love to have him here, but let's not pretend he is something he's not.

Wright was in a highly publicized cheating scandal with a Nova student. There were several fights among Nova players over the years, and there was also the drama about Fisher impregnating Scottie Reynolds gf. What about Nova suspending 12 players in 2003 over in the Phone Card Scandal? The two years of probation? The transfers out (King, Yacouba, Armwood, Brzoja, Kennedy, Chennault, Johnson off just in the last five years)? Taylor King's substance abuse? Let's not make them out to be choir boys.

New York Post article from 2005:

In his fourth season, Wright’s seat is getting hotter, and Villanova fans are getting antsy, waiting for their first trip to the NCAA tournament since 1999.
“I’m very aware that [the pressure] is there,” Wright said.

Nova made the tournament 4/5 years from 95-99. Wright took over in 2001 fresh off recruiting New York for the last several years. Lavin took over a team that was 12-24 in conference the prior two seasons and that hadn't made the the tournament in nine seasons.

Highly publicized? You need a lesson on what highly publicized is.
It was an unfounded rumor
 
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