Mike Vacc SJU Critique

[we are sju]

The people complaining about the supensions and stuff as opposed to his actual coaching are being unrealistic. If you want to go get a Cal type(which I would be all for) then yes I stand by the fact that those type of issues will arise. If you want to replace him with a better coach than that is understandable.

 

[MainMan]

Just speaking for me personally, here are my own expectations for a 10 year window:

7-8 NCAA Tournament Appearances
2-3 Sweet 16's
1-2 Big East Championships
1 Deep NCAA Tournament Run (Elite 8 or better)

So basically you want the 80s all over again - a level of success this program never had before or since.

 

[SJUalum98]

Making the NIT is a failure. In a down year, or through the turnover of recruiting classes, you can see it happening realistically once ever 5 years.

This is not that hard of a conference to not be able to finish in the Top 4 every year.

The well coached teams should be able to especially if they have a decent amount of 4-year players to groom.

The administration has seen the "sizzle" so to speak in regards to recruits.

It has to translate consistently on the court and in wins.

It did this year but it should never take 4 years to accomplish.

Next year was supposed to be led by a super Senior (CO) and a super Junior (RJ) with a stud freshman (BS). There's nothing wrong with that mix when you add in 4-year guys.

But what will actually happen is up in the air.

If you was the President, would you want so much uncertainty?

 

[Joeche]

Fun
Yes, but I think he was stating that if you are prepared to let go off a somewhat succesful coach, you had better be prepared to replace him with a big time coach. And I do not think the school would be prepared to do that.
I agree Lavin seems to be a happy medium for the school, but if replaced I think the school goes the other way instead of moving forward. That is why I would rather keep him warts and all.

My point about posters complaints about Lavin is that the things they complain about, ineligibilities, supensions, weed, self promoting would be far worse with an even more succesful coach.

I don't think we can make easy assumptions like things would be far worse with a coach with a more successful record than Lavin but one thing is certain and that is that, as I have harped on for most of the Lavin-related debates, is if St. John's fires him and the best some of his biggest critics here can come up with is Masiello or Cluess or Hurley then all the facilities upgrades in the world won't make a difference in predicting future success. All that I agree with Vaccaro about in his article (thanks for getting some of your material from redmen.com ) is that if Lavin is replaced they need a brand name to continue what Lavin started in building the St. John's brand in NYC. A perceived "up-and-comer" from Manhattan College will not cut it any longer in NYC. Where I disagree is in assessment of the "infrastructure". I like many here have spent time in Taffner and it has state-of-the-art amenities unlike any schools in the NYC metro area and certainly as good as Rutgers from the BIG. My avatar was taken in Taffner and I am proud of the facility. I doubt Vaccaro has taken an extensive tour but we will never, ever have the facilities of Kentucky or North Carolina that he references and other than tearing down Carnesecca and building a corporate sponsored arena, not much else will improve our cinder block arena other than putting more lipstick on a pig.
And no Dr. Fun, keeping a $2 million coach with the highest paid staff in the Big East is not staying in a mom and pop culture and it basically comes down to what is the lifeblood of a successful program and that is recruiting. I submit that 2 NCAA bids, an NIT and 3 20 win seasons would be more than enough to extend Lavin had he secured the commitments of Diallo, Briscoe, Sampson along with a JC, and firm commitments from Rysheed Jordan and Obekpa to return. As Gonzaga and Villanova, two good examples, have shown, it is not about facilities it is about the players.[/quote

FYI< Villinova has just undergone a big upgrade to it's campus

 

[we are sju]

For me it all boils down to Norm. By year 4 I was totally convinced we would never make the tourney again. By year 6 I was openly rooting against them so that he would get fired.With that still fresh in my memory I have a hard time getting all worked up when we are currently in the tourney

 

[lawmanfan]

In my opinion NCAA 3 out of 5 years is not acceptable. There is no reason in the Big East, St Johns can't be an NCAA Tourney team every season with missing the Tourney an aberration. Clean house in the athletic dept and run things professionally with strong leadership that lives by clarity rather than political (CYA based) decision making. Stop whining about disadvantages and focus upon advantages. They are there.

Welcome to the Dark Side.

Though of course you did not answer the question Mike Vaccaro is essentially asking, which is "can you get there with the current regime?"

 

[Class of 72]

In my opinion NCAA 3 out of 5 years is not acceptable. There is no reason in the Big East, St Johns can't be an NCAA Tourney team every season with missing the Tourney an aberration. Clean house in the athletic dept and run things professionally with strong leadership that lives by clarity rather than political (CYA based) decision making. Stop whining about disadvantages and focus upon advantages. They are there.

I agree about the athletic department. With Monasch at the helm athletics in general has hit a nadir.
In the "new" smaller Big East you are correct about NCAA bid expectations. We must be a top 3 team in this league for it to be a success. Having NYC , the Garden and the media capital as our advantage requires bold and big time thinking. Villanova, Georgetown, Marquette, Xavier and Butller have all made the commitment to excellence. We cannot and should not accept a 6th place and bubble hope at St. John's.

 

[stjohnschris]

We should be competing, year after year, on the same level as Georgetown and Villanova. I don't think that's too much to ask. It would appear that SJU had this in mind with hiring Lavin. After 5 years, we are not competing at the same level as Georgetown and Villanova. With a new president, and an extension on the table, at least we will get a decent picture very soon, of where basketball is on the priority list.

 

[Red.Fans]

In my opinion NCAA 3 out of 5 years is not acceptable. There is no reason in the Big East, St Johns can't be an NCAA Tourney team every season with missing the Tourney an aberration. Clean house in the athletic dept and run things professionally with strong leadership that lives by clarity rather than political (CYA based) decision making. Stop whining about disadvantages and focus upon advantages. They are there.

Welcome to the Dark Side.

Though of course you did not answer the question Mike Vaccaro is essentially asking, which is "can you get there with the current regime?"

For me, regime would start at the top. You can't just throw money or even people at problems unless there is a framework for it/them to succeed. So if it is the same old crap, then the "happy medium" is not what I am "happy" with but what we are left with. Some quality human being might come in a be successful for a moment but they'd jet at the first opportunity not because they are opportunists or looking for the BBD, but because quality people don't want to be surrounded by or led by people who don't give a crap.

So far I like what I've seen with the new Prez. As our fearless leader, I hope he is a nice man or even a brilliant man, with good intentions but one that knows how to create a culture of quality. hopefully he is wise enough to surround himself with strength rather than sycophants and yes-men (or as they'd say in the Red Storm era, "yes-people"). Do that in an uncompromising way and good things come. I don't mean, Tyranny. I mean clarity and consistency. Then you have a culture where people and programs can succeed. When that is lacking you can have a culture where even good people and ideas are setup to fail.

 

[paultzman]

In my opinion NCAA 3 out of 5 years is not acceptable. There is no reason in the Big East, St Johns can't be an NCAA Tourney team every season with missing the Tourney an aberration. Clean house in the athletic dept and run things professionally with strong leadership that lives by clarity rather than political (CYA based) decision making. Stop whining about disadvantages and focus upon advantages. They are there.

Welcome to the Dark Side.

Though of course you did not answer the question Mike Vaccaro is essentially asking, which is "can you get there with the current regime?"

For me, regime would start at the top. You can't just throw money or even people at problems unless there is a framework for it/them to succeed. So if it is the same old crap, then the "happy medium" is not what I am "happy" with but what we are left with. Some quality human being might come in a be successful for a moment but they'd jet at the first opportunity not because they are opportunists or looking for the BBD, but because quality people don't want to be surrounded by or led by people who don't give a crap.

So far I like what I've seen with the new Prez. As our fearless leader, I hope he is a nice man or even a brilliant man, with good intentions but one that knows how to create a culture of quality. hopefully he is wise enough to surround himself with strength rather than sycophants and yes-men (or as they'd say in the Red Storm era, "yes-people"). Do that in an uncompromising way and good things come. I don't mean, Tyranny. I mean clarity and consistency. Then you have a culture where people and programs can succeed. When that is lacking you can have a culture where even good people and ideas are setup to fail.

Excellent post Paul

 

[logen]

The people complaining about the supensions and stuff as opposed to his actual coaching are being unrealistic. If you want to go get a Cal type(which I would be all for) then yes I stand by the fact that those type of issues will arise. If you want to replace him with a better coach than that is understandable.

Well I disagree with your opening sentence but I do understand your point now. I don't really play the name game with coaching replacements because choosing a replacement should be the province of a professional, objective, knowledgable, and empowered team. A good record is one criteria but as people have pointed out if you look at some successful coaches it took them time to get a program humming. IMO, there is nothing the matter with Lavin's record here per se but IMO the state of the program both in terms of turmoil and the outlook going forward and the associated reasons for that state leaves much to be desired. So while I have won't offer opinions on possible replacements without some personal knowledge I do (obviously) feel we need a change.

 

[we are sju]

Logen
Since Louie retired what has gone on with the program that would make you think the school could make a better hire? If you want to say you want more for the program and or thought Lavin would be more succesful, I understand. The reality is outside of maybe Jarvis who is despised by most on here, Lavin has been the most succesful hire we have had post Louie.
I grew up watching us play in the tourney every year but our most recenmt history has been much worse than it has under Lavin.

 

[shamsman2]

In my opinion NCAA 3 out of 5 years is not acceptable. There is no reason in the Big East, St Johns can't be an NCAA Tourney team every season with missing the Tourney an aberration. Clean house in the athletic dept and run things professionally with strong leadership that lives by clarity rather than political (CYA based) decision making. Stop whining about disadvantages and focus upon advantages. They are there.

Can anyone be more specific about the issues with the athletic dept. and the way things are run? Am curious how it affects the BB programs.

 

[SJU85]

I thought it was a fair article.

As far as Taffner, it is a nice facility but I think some of things, like the locker rooms, training and fitness areas should be larger.

 

[MainMan]

The question becomes: how can you afford not to re-up this guy?

 

[fuchsia]

There are many points I agree with throughout this thread (on both sides of course) but I am struck that we are a few joints away from everybody on the board doing holier than though posts at one another about being careful not to look past San Diego State.

The corrupt previous administration oversaw the up grade of Carnesecca and I am deeply suspicious (my family has been in the construction industry in NYC for sixty years) that kickback may have been more important than outcome in the results. Most of all I wanted straight up the wall behind the basket seating with the side to side walkways not visible behind much enlarged red zone student sections so that every time it was seen on television it resembled a true home court pit full of students who get Carnesecca tickets free as part of tuition.

 

[jerseyshorejohnny]

In my opinion NCAA 3 out of 5 years is not acceptable. There is no reason in the Big East, St Johns can't be an NCAA Tourney team every season with missing the Tourney an aberration. Clean house in the athletic dept and run things professionally with strong leadership that lives by clarity rather than political (CYA based) decision making. Stop whining about disadvantages and focus upon advantages. They are there.

Welcome to the Dark Side.

Though of course you did not answer the question Mike Vaccaro is essentially asking, which is "can



you get there with the current regime?"

For me, regime would start at the top. You can't just throw money or even people at problems unless there is a framework for it/them to succeed. So if it is the same old crap, then the "happy medium" is not what I am "happy" with but what we are left with. Some quality human being might come in a be successful for a moment but they'd jet at the first opportunity not because they are opportunists or looking for the BBD, but because quality people don't want to be surrounded by or led by people who don't give a crap.

So far I like what I've seen with the new Prez. As our fearless leader, I hope he is a nice man or even a brilliant man, with good intentions but one that knows how to create a culture of quality. hopefully he is wise enough to surround himself with strength rather than sycophants and yes-men (or as they'd say in the Red Storm era, "yes-people"). Do that in an uncompromising way and good things come. I don't mean, Tyranny. I mean clarity and consistency. Then you have a culture where people and programs can succeed. When that is lacking you can have a culture where even good people and ideas are setup to fail.

FWIW.... In my interaction with him, I find "Bobby" to be ego-neutral and the furthest thing from an egomanic that you could find.

In addition, I don't see him filling his staff with politically correct "yes-people"

As opposed to some leaders, I don't believe he needs to be the proverbial smartest guy in the room.

Futhermore, I fully expect him to continue to pro-actively reach out to all university constituencies: students, faculty, alumni and friends of the university.

He is very "people friendly" and if you sent him a thoughtful letter regarding your thoughts and observations, I would not be surprised, in the slightest, if he didn't respond to you.

I fully exepect that his tenure will be transparent and that all initiatives will be tought through and properly vetted.

That said, I am very, very optimistic as it pertains to the culture he will foster .

If you have something to tell him now is the time to do it.

 

[dee]

The bottom line is Lavin should be offered an extension. It would also be nice if they made further improvements in Carnesecca Arena or just knock the whole thing down and build a place where you can actually sit with enough room for your butt and without breaking your back

 

[beast of the east]

In my opinion NCAA 3 out of 5 years is not acceptable. There is no reason in the Big East, St Johns can't be an NCAA Tourney team every season with missing the Tourney an aberration. Clean house in the athletic dept and run things professionally with strong leadership that lives by clarity rather than political (CYA based) decision making. Stop whining about disadvantages and focus upon advantages. They are there.

Lots of people agree with you, but not me.

Going to the NCAA's in 4 of 5 years, or every year is a pipe dream. Back before a conference schedule, we were a name brand who would play a much easier schedule and get in on the basis of our reputation. Most D1 schools never played on TV and as such a grains of sand on the beach. Now the whole process is so highly structured, with nearly everyone in conference, that everyone gets TV time, everybody gets noticed if they are any good. If you look at all the "somewhat" big time programs with garbage records this year and no chance of an NCAA bid, it's startling.

Three bid every 5 years? Sign me up.

 

[rcatalano]

The bottom line is Lavin should be offered an extension. It would also be nice if they made further improvements in Carnesecca Arena or just knock the whole thing down and build a place where you can actually sit with enough room for your butt and without breaking your back

How true, Dee LMAO!