Mike Vacc SJU Critique

Again not advocating it and I think he has done just enought to get an an extension, but if things don't work out.... I'll take BYU guy. I know they blew a big lead but I would watch those guys play anyday. That was crazy. That was the most fun game I have seen in awhile. Ole Miss team was pretty fun too.
Click to expand...

I think the fact that Lavin has "done just enough" is the reason he is in the hot seat. Most fans are justifiable in thinking "just enough" is not enough for a staff paid in excess of $3 million.
Sustainable success is built on talented players and looking past this year, which was a success in my book, we have only one talented player verbally committed.
That is a huge, huge problem. It is also a situation Lavin has avoided addressing using the cover of NCAA rules as a defense. The fact that 2016 players are not rushing to put St. John's on their list is also problematic for him. We will know more in the next few weeks if advances one game in the tourney and is given time to close some player deals.
Click to expand...
Ah yes, "Sustainable Success"
 
As Gonzaga and Villanova, two good examples, have shown, it is not about facilities it is about the players.
Click to expand...

Or, as Gonzaga and Villanova have shown, it's about the competency of the coach.
Few and Wright weren't big names, but they were smart coaches, good managers, and hungry to be successful.

Fun is absolutely right. MV's article makes the point that if you're OK with mediocrity, then Lavin is fine. If you want to take a step forward, changes are necessary. And I couldn't agree more.
Click to expand...

Could not disagree more with this fallacy that if you support Lavin, then you are accepting of mediocrity. I will withhold my assessment of Lavin's return until the balls are put away, but quite honestly, I am leaning toward bringing him back. That does NOT mean I accept mediocrity. What it means is that Lavin, while not the spectacular coach I thought he would be, has done a good job here. He has brought St. John's back in the limelight, and yes, for some not so positive reasons, but for what I believe are more positive than negative reasons.

The names thrown about as Lavin's replacement are, IMHO, taking a huge step backward. Did anybody hear Masiello after last night's debacle against a horrible Hampton team? He sounds worse than Lavin in Lavin's high spin moments. Now, if you told me that Jay Wright, Coach K or others at that caliber wanted to come here, then yes, I'd support that in a heartbeat. Because its a step up.

But one of the Hurleys? Masiello? Zach Spiker? That would be going backwards, not forwards.

So please, stop this propaganda that if you support Lavin, then you support mediocrity. That is pure and simple, BS.

And I can't believe I contributed to this thread becoming yet another debate about Lavin! :oops:
Click to expand...
100% agree!!
 
I know not the place for it but for some reason I can only post using the quick reply and can't quote other posts. This only is a problem for me from work. Anyone else ever experience this issue?
 
I know not the place for it but for some reason I can only post using the quick reply and can't quote other posts. This only is a problem for me from work. Anyone else ever experience this issue?
Click to expand...

Are you a miner? Last year it was quote function right? :)
 
I know not the place for it but for some reason I can only post using the quick reply and can't quote other posts. This only is a problem for me from work. Anyone else ever experience this issue?
Click to expand...

No because most of us are bums that don't work. ;)
 
Not a miner though I enjoy Justified in which the mining industry supplies the backdrop.

Quote issue was on JJ and that just started working again one day. I think my job just tries to make it difficult to use the internet.
 
In my opinion NCAA 3 out of 5 years is not acceptable. There is no reason in the Big East, St Johns can't be an NCAA Tourney team every season with missing the Tourney an aberration. Clean house in the athletic dept and run things professionally with strong leadership that lives by clarity rather than political (CYA based) decision making. Stop whining about disadvantages and focus upon advantages. They are there.
 
Paul
That hasn't been the case since Louie was coach. Again I think there is a better chance things get worse than better , so i am for keeping him. I do find it funny that people seem more fed up with Lavin than they were with Norm. And that is just crazy!!!!
 
In my opinion NCAA 3 out of 5 years is not acceptable. There is no reason in the Big East, St Johns can't be an NCAA Tourney team every season with missing the Tourney an aberration. Clean house in the athletic dept and run things professionally with strong leadership that lives by clarity rather than political (CYA based) decision making. Stop whining about disadvantages and focus upon advantages. They are there.
Click to expand...

I'm glad someone else posted this. Xavier shouldn't be the model...Villanova/Georgetown should be the goal with missing the show an aberration.
 
Paul
That hasn't been the case since Louie was coach. Again I think there is a better chance things get worse than better , so i am for keeping him. I do find it funny that people seem more fed up with Lavin than they were with Norm. And that is just crazy!!!!
Click to expand...

It's about expectations. You pay 2 or 3 times the salary for a new coach and staff, you expect way more. We got more, but not 3 times the performance many were expecting.
 
Before Mahoney, Fran's ass Jarvis' last couple years, the Pittsburgh ho train, and finally before NORM, I would have wanted more. Now.... two tourney's every 5 years seems ok.
 
In my opinion NCAA 3 out of 5 years is not acceptable. There is no reason in the Big East, St Johns can't be an NCAA Tourney team every season with missing the Tourney an aberration. Clean house in the athletic dept and run things professionally with strong leadership that lives by clarity rather than political (CYA based) decision making. Stop whining about disadvantages and focus upon advantages. They are there.
Click to expand...

I'm glad someone else posted this. Xavier shouldn't be the model...Villanova/Georgetown should be the goal with missing the show an aberration.
Click to expand...

Fair point on Nova /GT & by the way Xavier always makes the tourney & usually does well. My 3/5 expectation may merit adjustment. :)
 
Fun
Yes, but I think he was stating that if you are prepared to let go off a somewhat succesful coach, you had better be prepared to replace him with a big time coach. And I do not think the school would be prepared to do that.
I agree Lavin seems to be a happy medium for the school, but if replaced I think the school goes the other way instead of moving forward. That is why I would rather keep him warts and all.

My point about posters complaints about Lavin is that the things they complain about, ineligibilities, supensions, weed, self promoting would be far worse with an even more succesful coach.
Click to expand...

There are an AWFUL LOT of programs currently far more successful than ours for which "ineligibilities, supensions, weed, self promoting" are not a way of life.
 
Tourney every year-NCAA 4/5, NIT the other.
 
Be careful what you wish for.....

Paul Hewitt wasn't Bobby Cremins, but he sure wasn't Brian Gregory either.

And Louis Orr wasn't PJ, but he wasn't Gonzo or Willard either.

I'll take an era of consistent bubble teams with an occasional blast of very good considering STJ hasn't been a perennial NCAA participant for a quarter century.
 
"There are an AWFUL LOT of programs currently far more successful than ours for which "ineligibilities, supensions, weed, self promoting" are not a way of life. "

The criticism of his coaching and recruiting-the last couple years is fair game. That other stuff is annoying but overblown IMO. Heck Sainted coach K was slow to pull the trigger on a serial molester. That other stuff gets over looked if you are succesful, which is why I think it is hypocritical to complain about it now.
 
Fun
Yes, but I think he was stating that if you are prepared to let go off a somewhat succesful coach, you had better be prepared to replace him with a big time coach. And I do not think the school would be prepared to do that.
I agree Lavin seems to be a happy medium for the school, but if replaced I think the school goes the other way instead of moving forward. That is why I would rather keep him warts and all.

My point about posters complaints about Lavin is that the things they complain about, ineligibilities, supensions, weed, self promoting would be far worse with an even more succesful coach.
Click to expand...

I don't think we can make easy assumptions like things would be far worse with a coach with a more successful record than Lavin but one thing is certain and that is that, as I have harped on for most of the Lavin-related debates, is if St. John's fires him and the best some of his biggest critics here can come up with is Masiello or Cluess or Hurley then all the facilities upgrades in the world won't make a difference in predicting future success. All that I agree with Vaccaro about in his article (thanks for getting some of your material from redmen.com ) is that if Lavin is replaced they need a brand name to continue what Lavin started in building the St. John's brand in NYC. A perceived "up-and-comer" from Manhattan College will not cut it any longer in NYC. Where I disagree is in assessment of the "infrastructure". I like many here have spent time in Taffner and it has state-of-the-art amenities unlike any schools in the NYC metro area and certainly as good as Rutgers from the BIG. My avatar was taken in Taffner and I am proud of the facility. I doubt Vaccaro has taken an extensive tour but we will never, ever have the facilities of Kentucky or North Carolina that he references and other than tearing down Carnesecca and building a corporate sponsored arena, not much else will improve our cinder block arena other than putting more lipstick on a pig.
And no Dr. Fun, keeping a $2 million coach with the highest paid staff in the Big East is not staying in a mom and pop culture and it basically comes down to what is the lifeblood of a successful program and that is recruiting. I submit that 2 NCAA bids, an NIT and 3 20 win seasons would be more than enough to extend Lavin had he secured the commitments of Diallo, Briscoe, Sampson along with a JC, and firm commitments from Rysheed Jordan and Obekpa to return. As Gonzaga and Villanova, two good examples, have shown, it is not about facilities it is about the players.
Click to expand...

Excellent post! I agree on all fronts.
 
Just speaking for me personally, here are my own expectations for a 10 year window:

7-8 NCAA Tournament Appearances
2-3 Sweet 16's
1-2 Big East Championships
1 Deep NCAA Tournament Run (Elite 8 or better)
 
"There are an AWFUL LOT of programs currently far more successful than ours for which "ineligibilities, supensions, weed, self promoting" are not a way of life. "

The criticism of his coaching and recruiting-the last couple years is fair game. That other stuff is annoying but overblown IMO. Heck Sainted coach K was slow to pull the trigger on a serial molester. That other stuff gets over looked if you are succesful, which is why I think it is hypocritical to complain about it now.
Click to expand...

Huh?

You posted -
"My point about posters complaints about Lavin is that the things they complain about, ineligibilities, supensions, weed, self promoting would be far worse with an even more succesful coach."

I was responding to your assertion that should we replace Lavin for a more successful coach we are in for more of the program problems and that is not true at all; many successfal, sustainable programs are not beset with the problems we have here so your premise makes no sense to me.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top