Lavin's Body Of Work At SJU

[we are sju]

The biggest thing is that fans need to know and understand what they want from this program. For the most part, it seems to change every 5 minutes. And that is the reason they will never be happy.


About 10yrs ago, they wanted a coach who had local ties, who would recruit the city and local areas, who could clean this program up. So they hired Norm, and we all know how that worked out.

So then the fans said, we want a coach that can be the face of the program, a face that people will recognize. We need to have a coach that has that 'NYC swagger'. So they got Lavin, and he has been exactly what we wanted as a coach.

Our last two coaches have been exactly what the fans have wanted...so what's next?

Now look at the players themselves. Everyone said that we needed local players, and so we got them. But all of a sudden those local players weren't good enough and weren't winning enough. Then the fans started to say that we needed good players, regardless of where they are from. So Lavin started recruiting kids from all over the country, and now all over the world. And now our fans are upset again for him not being able to seal the deal with local talent.

People on here claim that NYC is the greatest city in the world (which it may be), and everyone has that NYC swagger/attitude/cockiness.....but then we get pissed if the players act that way on the court.


So what do people want and expect from this program? Because in the end, you can't have it both ways.....

What is it you want?

To be a contrarian and argue for argument's sake.

Separately, I find it funny that marillac, who was probably the most entitled/nastiest poster during the Norm era, is chastising others for doing the same. Marillac, be honest, Lavin has pictures of you in a compromising position, right?

I was a kid during the Norm years. I've grown up quite a bit since then and I've learned the proper place and purpose for sports in my life.

I will also never forget the despair I felt during those dark times. It was worse than any season as a Mets fan. We never had a chance at an elite recruit. Guys like Landesburg and Stephenson listed us as a mere courtesy because Norm was a great guy. They never had any intention to come here and Stephenson proved that by adding schools every time one of his finalists moved and left just us.

The worst part was that Norm was just as bad--if not worse--at coaching than Lavin . His appalling QC record (combined with the success they achieved a few years after he left) was a constant reminder that there was no realistic chance that he would ever become a good coach.

This is not the job it was even during the time when Roberts was interviewing. Coaches aren't going up against Boeheim, Pitino, Dixon, and Calhoun anymore. Whoever comes in to replace Lavin--whenever that may be--is going to be a flawed coach in some aspect.

So Lavin does not have the Taurasi video?

 

[fun]

So

It's about time.

 

[Class of 72]

Oh please! You blame the inability to find a decent coach on the fact that fans are angry with how the team is playing? I have been following St John's Basketball since I was 10 years old. Never have I witnessed this kind of inept recruiting and coaching than I have in recent years. Have the coaches forgotten that basketball is a team sport? You just can't grab any athletes off a playground and expect them to play like a team. Norm couldn't coach-neither can Lavin. Players need to be developed and molded into a system. St John's doesn't have a system any more. How can you blame fans for their anger?

Forget 3, 4 or 5 star players, you need coachable players that can shoot and have something between the ears. As our luck would have it, we just have not gotten those players. Butler had two non athletic white kids who schooled our rated kids with fundamental basketball. They have a first year coach who inherited the team. Yet, they play smarter ball and have a deeper bench. Much has been made of our having seniors but they are not very good players. They were overrated by the scouting services and we wanted ranked recruits. Every one of them has serious flaws in their game and unless they are all clicking on all cylinders at the same time, they will lose to most decent teams. Like Norm Roberts, Lavin has failed to sign a point guard that can make a difference on the floor. Non of the players have any leadership qualities so it is pointless to debate which one can turn it around in the next few weeks. Because of these flaws I feared an implosion and it arrived sooner than I expected. It will be a true test to see whether this staff can motivate these players in the few games remaining.

Boy do I hate stereotypes; Dunham and Barlow are not non athletic at all. In fact the most unathletic guy on their team is probably Roosevelt Jones, who ate us up and who happens to be black. What all 3 are are excellent basketball players.

For a second there I thought you were offended by my calling them white. While both are great high percentage shooters neither has ever been described as athletic in the sense of a player who has exceptional speed, jumping ability or physically gifted. You obviously missed my comparative analysis between our players and them! No surprise there. While Kellen Dunham was Butler's highest rated recruit in 2012, he was only 17th at his position as a shooting guard. By comparison, Rasheed Sulaiman was rated 3rd. He was known as a dead eye shooter and he knows how to free himself up for shoots, which is basically all he does and does it better than any guard we have. Barlow was a 5'10 walk on guard who got no D1 offers out of high school. Athletic is the last thing one would describe him to be; an incredibly hard working shooter is his game. None of our guards, including our 2,000 point scorer D'angelo Harrison, have the gifted shooting ability of these two kids. You defend them with superior athletes which we were rumored to have but discipline and composure are not part of our DNA. Hope this clarified my stereotypical missive for you.

No not at all. IMO, they are not athletic in your mind because they are white; from my perspective neither are "non athletic". Dunham can create his own shot and can go to the hole which makes him plenty "athletic" in my mind. That he picks his spots to do either is because he plays within the team game. Barlow had no problem in both games breaking down and running by our "athletic" guards and taking the ball where he needed to whenever he wanted to which makes him plenty "athletic" in my mind. That he picked his spots to do so is because he plays within that same structure. Hope this clarifies my reply for you. Had you said they were not as highly rated or better basketball players than us I would not have replied. It was the use of the very easy and stereotypical they're "white" so they're "non athletic" that prompted my reply.

So I basically spell out for you the definition of an "athletic " player, give you their recruiting history where both were only defined as shooters but you still missed the analogy to our players who are the very definition of athleticism since they were recruited and whose description fans and sports announcers use almost every game. So I guess it was the "white" part you want to claim more than the 5 minutes of fame you deserve in this discussion! Let me know the first time the Butler guards are described as athletic and we will make it a sticky. BTW, getting open for the ball has never been credited with athletic ability but the tenacity to keep moving without the ball unlike our guards who tend to stand around on offense. Much of that is instinct but much of it is coaching.

 

[mjmaherjr]

The biggest thing is that fans need to know and understand what they want from this program. For the most part, it seems to change every 5 minutes. And that is the reason they will never be happy.


About 10yrs ago, they wanted a coach who had local ties, who would recruit the city and local areas, who could clean this program up. So they hired Norm, and we all know how that worked out.

So then the fans said, we want a coach that can be the face of the program, a face that people will recognize. We need to have a coach that has that 'NYC swagger'. So they got Lavin, and he has been exactly what we wanted as a coach.

Our last two coaches have been exactly what the fans have wanted...so what's next?

Now look at the players themselves. Everyone said that we needed local players, and so we got them. But all of a sudden those local players weren't good enough and weren't winning enough. Then the fans started to say that we needed good players, regardless of where they are from. So Lavin started recruiting kids from all over the country, and now all over the world. And now our fans are upset again for him not being able to seal the deal with local talent.

People on here claim that NYC is the greatest city in the world (which it may be), and everyone has that NYC swagger/attitude/cockiness.....but then we get pissed if the players act that way on the court.


So what do people want and expect from this program? Because in the end, you can't have it both ways.....

What is it you want?

To be a contrarian and argue for argument's sake.

Separately, I find it funny that marillac, who was probably the most entitled/nastiest poster during the Norm era, is chastising others for doing the same. Marillac, be honest, Lavin has pictures of you in a compromising position, right?

I was a kid during the Norm years. I've grown up quite a bit since then and I've learned the proper place and purpose for sports in my life.

I will also never forget the despair I felt during those dark times. It was worse than any season as a Mets fan. We never had a chance at an elite recruit. Guys like Landesburg and Stephenson listed us as a mere courtesy because Norm was a great guy. They never had any intention to come here and Stephenson proved that by adding schools every time one of his finalists moved and left just us.

The worst part was that Norm was just as bad--if not worse--at coaching than Lavin . His appalling QC record (combined with the success they achieved a few years after he left) was a constant reminder that there was no realistic chance that he would ever become a good coach.

This is not the job it was even during the time when Roberts was interviewing. Coaches aren't going up against Boeheim, Pitino, Dixon, and Calhoun anymore. Whoever comes in to replace Lavin--whenever that may be--is going to be a flawed coach in some aspect.

So Lavin does not have the Taurasi video?

Pornhub does

 

[mjmaherjr]

Who is Gil?

Yeah I always wondered why Otis calls Paultz Gil.

 

[Redmen88]

I would say Lavin is not what we thought he was. He is recognizable and has his fair share of good recruits, however he is not a good in game coach and his recruiting is spotty. I am okay with players who have swagger as long as they can back it up, otherwise go out and just play the game.

It would be nice if we get some local kids and we should always pursue them but it is not a necessity. I would be happy to have a program like Xavier or Butler. They have done far better than SJU in the lady decade, as have most BE teams.

We are now in a conference that is very fair for all teams. There are no goliaths. Go get an up and comer and let's move on. Maybe Miller or Hurley. I would love to see the team get better even if we have to go back to 12 wins with a steady rise. I would love to see improvement year over year.

 

[we are sju]

Who is Gil?

Yeah I always wondered why Otis calls Paultz Gil.

Not many Gil's around anymore.
Hodges would be a compliment. McDougal was the 1951 AL Rookie of the year. Steve Martin's character from the movie Parenthood was a good dad. Gil Flores was a pretty terrible utility guy on some bad early 80's Met teams but he was still a major leaguer. Maybe short for Gilbert Godfried? He is pretty annoying and that could be construed as an insult.

 

[Avon Barksdale]

The biggest thing is that fans need to know and understand what they want from this program. For the most part, it seems to change every 5 minutes. And that is the reason they will never be happy.


About 10yrs ago, they wanted a coach who had local ties, who would recruit the city and local areas, who could clean this program up. So they hired Norm, and we all know how that worked out.

So then the fans said, we want a coach that can be the face of the program, a face that people will recognize. We need to have a coach that has that 'NYC swagger'. So they got Lavin, and he has been exactly what we wanted as a coach.

Our last two coaches have been exactly what the fans have wanted...so what's next?

Now look at the players themselves. Everyone said that we needed local players, and so we got them. But all of a sudden those local players weren't good enough and weren't winning enough. Then the fans started to say that we needed good players, regardless of where they are from. So Lavin started recruiting kids from all over the country, and now all over the world. And now our fans are upset again for him not being able to seal the deal with local talent.

People on here claim that NYC is the greatest city in the world (which it may be), and everyone has that NYC swagger/attitude/cockiness.....but then we get pissed if the players act that way on the court.


So what do people want and expect from this program? Because in the end, you can't have it both ways.....

What is it you want?

To be a contrarian and argue for argument's sake.

Separately, I find it funny that marillac, who was probably the most entitled/nastiest poster during the Norm era, is chastising others for doing the same. Marillac, be honest, Lavin has pictures of you in a compromising position, right?

I was a kid during the Norm years. I've grown up quite a bit since then and I've learned the proper place and purpose for sports in my life.

I will also never forget the despair I felt during those dark times. It was worse than any season as a Mets fan. We never had a chance at an elite recruit. Guys like Landesburg and Stephenson listed us as a mere courtesy because Norm was a great guy. They never had any intention to come here and Stephenson proved that by adding schools every time one of his finalists moved and left just us.

The worst part was that Norm was just as bad--if not worse--at coaching than Lavin . His appalling QC record (combined with the success they achieved a few years after he left) was a constant reminder that there was no realistic chance that he would ever become a good coach.

This is not the job it was even during the time when Roberts was interviewing. Coaches aren't going up against Boeheim, Pitino, Dixon, and Calhoun anymore. Whoever comes in to replace Lavin--whenever that may be--is going to be a flawed coach in some aspect.

So Lavin does not have the Taurasi video?

He's finally here

 

[mjmaherjr]

The biggest thing is that fans need to know and understand what they want from this program. For the most part, it seems to change every 5 minutes. And that is the reason they will never be happy.


About 10yrs ago, they wanted a coach who had local ties, who would recruit the city and local areas, who could clean this program up. So they hired Norm, and we all know how that worked out.

So then the fans said, we want a coach that can be the face of the program, a face that people will recognize. We need to have a coach that has that 'NYC swagger'. So they got Lavin, and he has been exactly what we wanted as a coach.

Our last two coaches have been exactly what the fans have wanted...so what's next?

Now look at the players themselves. Everyone said that we needed local players, and so we got them. But all of a sudden those local players weren't good enough and weren't winning enough. Then the fans started to say that we needed good players, regardless of where they are from. So Lavin started recruiting kids from all over the country, and now all over the world. And now our fans are upset again for him not being able to seal the deal with local talent.

People on here claim that NYC is the greatest city in the world (which it may be), and everyone has that NYC swagger/attitude/cockiness.....but then we get pissed if the players act that way on the court.


So what do people want and expect from this program? Because in the end, you can't have it both ways.....

What is it you want?

To be a contrarian and argue for argument's sake.

Separately, I find it funny that marillac, who was probably the most entitled/nastiest poster during the Norm era, is chastising others for doing the same. Marillac, be honest, Lavin has pictures of you in a compromising position, right?

I was a kid during the Norm years. I've grown up quite a bit since then and I've learned the proper place and purpose for sports in my life.

Kudos Marillac to probably the most honest self assessment I have ever read on this site

The beauty of posting here so long and reading so many posts from people over the last 15 years is seeing how people have changed. Heck we all have grown older maybe some of us haven't grown up

You were a lunatic back in the day ( in a good way because I always loved reading what you wrote ) but you really have grown up over the years and it's been fun to watch on the boards. Plus you have always been real good dude going back to the BEB party but you are definitely much more grounded

 

[beast of the east]

Boy do I hate stereotypes; Dunham and Barlow are not non athletic at all. In fact the most unathletic guy on their team is probably Roosevelt Jones, who ate us up and who happens to be black. What all 3 are are excellent basketball players.

The problem is that there is a diminishing number of fans who are able to distinguish between a "basketball player" and an "athlete".

Roosevelt Jones is by all means an athlete AND a basketball player. He's just very unorthodox

Once again I suggest a reading comprehension course. I never said he was not an athlete, I said he was "probably" their most "unathletic guy" which is a completely and totally relative term. You are so quick to want to argue with me, you don't read the posts for understanding, you read for what you think you can ding me on. Kind of like a person who doesn't listen for understanding but only to see when the person stops talking so they can jump in.

You are so damned funny. You state that Jones is the most unathletic guy on their team, which would be interpreted by mammals who walk upright, to mean he is the worst athlete on the team.. It's plain nonsense. In fact athletically, he is absolutely one of their best athletes, but is unconventional. I'm not trying to ding you at all. You say things that are nonsense, get called on it, and then go on the attack.

 

[L J S A]

Who is Gil?

Yeah I always wondered why Otis calls Paultz Gil.

Thanks to Otis, I always assumed he was Gilbert Montalvo, and wondered why NoHope wasn't on here kissing Paultzman's ass daily. :lol:

 

[doodyny33]

It's very simple to me. If St. John's misses the tournament, that means Lavin will have come up short 4 out of 5 years. The team will be bad next season and unless he brings in a top 5 class, probably won't be too great in 2016-'17 either. So all in all, we are talking about possibly missing 6 out of 7 tournaments.

Factor in the fact that he's not cheap and the answer should be pretty clear.

 

[Ray Morgan]

It's very simple to me. If St. John's misses the tournament, that means Lavin will have come up short 4 out of 5 years. The team will be bad next season and unless he brings in a top 5 class, probably won't be too great in 2016-'17 either. So all in all, we are talking about possibly missing 6 out of 7 tournaments.

Factor in the fact that he's not cheap and the answer should be pretty clear.

It's not that clear. Money comes into play. If he has a year left on his contract, what will it cost to buy him out? What is he lands Diallo and a few others? Will they stay if he goes? Who would be an upgrade as a coach? Are they available or under contract? What is the max the admin would go for, not just for a coach but a serious staff? Who is likely to come to NY? Not everyone wants to live in an expensive city. Coaches have families and kids in school. If they are out of work, it's one thing. The family goes where the breadwinner goes. Who will pick Lavin's successor? Hopefully not anyone from the group that picked every coach since Looie retired.

 

[SJU1512]

It's very simple to me. If St. John's misses the tournament, that means Lavin will have come up short 4 out of 5 years. The team will be bad next season and unless he brings in a top 5 class, probably won't be too great in 2016-'17 either. So all in all, we are talking about possibly missing 6 out of 7 tournaments.

Factor in the fact that he's not cheap and the answer should be pretty clear.

It's not that clear. Money comes into play. If he has a year left on his contract, what will it cost to buy him out? What is he lands Diallo and a few others? Will they stay if he goes? Who would be an upgrade as a coach? Are they available or under contract? What is the max the admin would go for, not just for a coach but a serious staff? Who is likely to come to NY? Not everyone wants to live in an expensive city. Coaches have families and kids in school. If they are out of work, it's one thing. The family goes where the breadwinner goes. Who will pick Lavin's successor? Hopefully not anyone from the group that picked every coach since Looie retired.

Ray, agree with your broader points about the many considerations that go into a decision like this. But want to answer your second question - what if he lands Diallo and a few others?

Obviously, it is better if we land elite recruits as opposed to not. But what does "better" mean? Getting a big recruiting hall means little in isolation. You have to then do something with the recruits on the court in the coming years.

To me getting Sampson, Diallo, etc. won't be materially different than landing the classes Lavin did his first two years here. Look where we are now with those players as juniors and seniors.

So for that reason I'm leaning more and more that decision should not be made based upon recruiting results in the next 3 months. That's a narrow, band-aid analysis, and we need to perform the deepest-dive, most surgical evaluation possible. It is my opinion that we should probably move on from Lavin, but even if we do not I hope decision is driven by factors other than spring recruiting results or lack thereof.

By the way I know you were not suggesting that decision on Lavin should factor this in, and were just raising it as one possible consideration. Just wanted to use the question raised for what I think is an important discussion point.

 

[hotfoottj]

The need for a quality point guard can't be overstressed.
The 92-93 team with David Cain went 19-11 and 12-6 in the Big East.
The 93-94 team without Cain went 12-17 and 5-13.
Brian Mahoney looked good with Cain on the floor.
Without him, the team just lacked floor direction.
I think todays team suffers from the same ailment.

 

[redfan259999888]

It's very simple to me. If St. John's misses the tournament, that means Lavin will have come up short 4 out of 5 years. The team will be bad next season and unless he brings in a top 5 class, probably won't be too great in 2016-'17 either. So all in all, we are talking about possibly missing 6 out of 7 tournaments.

Factor in the fact that he's not cheap and the answer should be pretty clear.

It's not that clear. Money comes into play. If he has a year left on his contract, what will it cost to buy him out? What is he lands Diallo and a few others? Will they stay if he goes? Who would be an upgrade as a coach? Are they available or under contract? What is the max the admin would go for, not just for a coach but a serious staff? Who is likely to come to NY? Not everyone wants to live in an expensive city. Coaches have families and kids in school. If they are out of work, it's one thing. The family goes where the breadwinner goes. Who will pick Lavin's successor? Hopefully not anyone from the group that picked every coach since Looie retired.

"If he has a year left on his contract, what will it cost to buy him out?"
The sooner he's gone, the sooner we can right the ship.

What is he lands Diallo and a few others? Will they stay if he goes?
I'm at the point where I don't care. We need a coach that will coach and recruit his ass off.
If it means giving him a pass for the first two years, you do that for the right coach.

What is the max the admin would go for, not just for a coach but a serious staff?
I guess that would determine how serious they are in bringing back the basketball program to the point that it used to be.
If you want it bad enough, then you better be willing to go all out. The school put up 2million, then add a few rich alumnis money, and maybe that's 3million a year.

Who will pick Lavin's successor?
Hopefully the new president has a brain and goes to a firm, to help look for the perfect coach.
Since louie left sju has been nothing except for the Artest years.

I know I didn't answer which coaches and the ones willing to come to nyc. How good would Archie be or the Hurley's? They aren't a sure bet.
First get a new AD. Then make a list of top sure bet college coaches, and call them all (maybe 5?). They might not take it, but you call anyway. Why? Because you just never know, one might surprise you. If none of them come, then you make a call to a firm and have them help you.
That's what I'd do if I was the president.

 

[stjohnschris]

[/quote]Coach was hired to bring in players and get people in the seats. He didn't get it done. You could almost start to feel that fans would be back if the winning would happen, but it did not. If everything you say is true, Lav's lack of recruiting ran the team into the ground.[/quote]

There was a short lived energy at the end of December, even into the beginning of January, and with our two local NBA teams in the cellar, SJU was in a prime spot to capitalize. and then it was gone...along with the ranking and positive press.

 

[ras]

In a nutshell; has not met expectations.

 

[Ray Morgan]

The need for a quality point guard can't be overstressed.
The 92-93 team with David Cain went 19-11 and 12-6 in the Big East.
The 93-94 team without Cain went 12-17 and 5-13.
Brian Mahoney looked good with Cain on the floor.
Without him, the team just lacked floor direction.
I think todays team suffers from the same ailment.

You have summarized a big part of our problem. You have a very good or great point guard, you will get more out of those around you. Branch is the closest we have to a player with a PG mentality. Sheed is shoot first. Branch distributes well from the perimeter, but, like Sheed, once he drives he is taking the shot. In today's world, a PG that can hit the open 3 really helps open up the opportunity for the drive. No solid PG from the last 2 coaches means no NCAA wins and only 1 appearance.

 

[billthetruth]

The need for a quality point guard can't be overstressed.
The 92-93 team with David Cain went 19-11 and 12-6 in the Big East.
The 93-94 team without Cain went 12-17 and 5-13.
Brian Mahoney looked good with Cain on the floor.
Without him, the team just lacked floor direction.
I think todays team suffers from the same ailment.

Marcus Hatten versus post-Marcus Hatten team.
If Felipe and Zendon had a better point guard than Tarik their careers would have been much better at St. John's
Louie always knew that you needed a good point guard to be successful.

If you switched Jordan with Billy Garrett Jr. I feel this team would be 4 to 5 wins better and playing for NCAA positioning now. Plus with far less drama.