Lavin's Body Of Work At SJU

[paultzman]

Good post. it should be noted that regardless of Lavin's mixed record, going in another direction after this season could lead to a 3-4 year death spiral, simply from transition and loss of recruits. We certainly don't want to become an established doormat in the reconstituted Big East. it's very hard to change that perception.

I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

Paultz, a lot of what you say makes sense. As you, I'm willing to put up with some pain in order to rebuild. Where I have a different opinion is that it may take more than several years to rebuild. Five or more years to rebuild is, in my opinion, unacceptable. Not saying that will be the case, just that it might. I don't know. Maybe I'm just a little more risk adverse than you are.

And like you, I say, "Beat Creighton!" :cheer:

Fair point Tony, it could be longer. I notice guys who successfully rebuild programs often get a few transfers to their liking in year one, supplemented by some JUCOs. Hurley at Rhode Island took that approach while recruiting well. In his third year he is competing for an A10 title (though unlikely), has a nice class coming & is poised to possibly go to the Dance next season. A four season turn around would be nice here, because I am getting old.

 

[paultzman]

[
I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

I agree with the sentiments of The Honorable Paultzman, but add that a new coach may possibly enhance recruiting.

Otis, no need for the passive aggressive nonsense. "Honorable" You are quite aware that we have had our differences, so just leave it alone. Your assault on my karma is fine & must give you great satisfaction, but the sarcastic reference is not appreciated. A moderator should be more mature, no?

 

[Jack Williams]

[
I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

I agree with the sentiments of The Honorable Paultzman, but add that a new coach may possibly enhance recruiting.

Otis, no need for the passive aggressive nonsense. "Honorable" You are quite aware that we have had our differences, so just leave it alone. Your assault on my karma is fine & must give you great satisfaction, but the sarcastic reference is not appreciated. A moderator should be more mature, no?

I'll up your karma

 

[Lester]

We've got 3 starters who have had character issues since they got here...D'Lo, Sheed and CO. We also recruited Thomas who had a shady past. Major flaws, folks. D'Lo has turned it around, and I give Lavin credit for doling out discipline, but the big names are in the news for the wrong reasons.

 

[beast of the east]

[
I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

I agree with the sentiments of The Honorable Paultzman, but add that a new coach may possibly enhance recruiting.

Otis, no need for the passive aggressive nonsense. "Honorable" You are quite aware that we have had our differences, so just leave it alone. Your assault on my karma is fine & must give you great satisfaction, but the sarcastic reference is not appreciated. A moderator should be more mature, no?

Negative karma means at least they are reading, and can't respond adequately with an intelligent counterpoint.

 

[kranmars]

[
I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

I agree with the sentiments of The Honorable Paultzman, but add that a new coach may possibly enhance recruiting.

Otis, no need for the passive aggressive nonsense. "Honorable" You are quite aware that we have had our differences, so just leave it alone. Your assault on my karma is fine & must give you great satisfaction, but the sarcastic reference is not appreciated. A moderator should be more mature, no?

Paultzman, maybe a mod should be more mature, but normally we are not. After getting to know me, you of all people should know that.

 

[Jack Williams]

[
I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

I agree with the sentiments of The Honorable Paultzman, but add that a new coach may possibly enhance recruiting.

Otis, no need for the passive aggressive nonsense. "Honorable" You are quite aware that we have had our differences, so just leave it alone. Your assault on my karma is fine & must give you great satisfaction, but the sarcastic reference is not appreciated. A moderator should be more mature, no?

Negative karma means at least they are reading, and can't respond adequately with an intelligent counterpoint.

Whatever helps you sleep at night beast

Haha, just joking, I actually agree with that

 

[TonyinFairfield]

[
I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

I agree with the sentiments of The Honorable Paultzman, but add that a new coach may possibly enhance recruiting.

Otis, no need for the passive aggressive nonsense. "Honorable" You are quite aware that we have had our differences, so just leave it alone. Your assault on my karma is fine & must give you great satisfaction, but the sarcastic reference is not appreciated. A moderator should be more mature, no?

I'll up your karma

As will I! :cheer:

 

[beast of the east]

[
I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

I agree with the sentiments of The Honorable Paultzman, but add that a new coach may possibly enhance recruiting.

Otis, no need for the passive aggressive nonsense. "Honorable" You are quite aware that we have had our differences, so just leave it alone. Your assault on my karma is fine & must give you great satisfaction, but the sarcastic reference is not appreciated. A moderator should be more mature, no?

Negative karma means at least they are reading, and can't respond adequately with an intelligent counterpoint.

Whatever helps you sleep at night beast

Haha, just joking, I actually agree with that

Question: Are you in study hall all day, or just have a serious case of senioritis?

 

[Joeche]

Oh please! You blame the inability to find a decent coach on the fact that fans are angry with how the team is playing? I have been following St John's Basketball since I was 10 years old. Never have I witnessed this kind of inept recruiting and coaching than I have in recent years. Have the coaches forgotten that basketball is a team sport? You just can't grab any athletes off a playground and expect them to play like a team. Norm couldn't coach-neither can Lavin. Players need to be developed and molded into a system. St John's doesn't have a system any more. How can you blame fans for their anger?

 

[Jack Williams]

[
I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

I agree with the sentiments of The Honorable Paultzman, but add that a new coach may possibly enhance recruiting.

Otis, no need for the passive aggressive nonsense. "Honorable" You are quite aware that we have had our differences, so just leave it alone. Your assault on my karma is fine & must give you great satisfaction, but the sarcastic reference is not appreciated. A moderator should be more mature, no?

Negative karma means at least they are reading, and can't respond adequately with an intelligent counterpoint.

Whatever helps you sleep at night beast

Haha, just joking, I actually agree with that

Question: Are you in study hall all day, or just have a serious case of senioritis?

Yea I know there's something wrong with me. The day after games there's so much discussion going on I'm on here a lot in school.

 

[fun]

[
I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

I agree with the sentiments of The Honorable Paultzman, but add that a new coach may possibly enhance recruiting.

Otis, no need for the passive aggressive nonsense. "Honorable" You are quite aware that we have had our differences, so just leave it alone. Your assault on my karma is fine & must give you great satisfaction, but the sarcastic reference is not appreciated. A moderator should be more mature, no?

Negative karma means at least they are reading, and can't respond adequately with an intelligent counterpoint.

Agree completely.

 

[tom in salem]

[
I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

I agree with the sentiments of The Honorable Paultzman, but add that a new coach may possibly enhance recruiting.

Otis, no need for the passive aggressive nonsense. "Honorable" You are quite aware that we have had our differences, so just leave it alone. Your assault on my karma is fine & must give you great satisfaction, but the sarcastic reference is not appreciated. A moderator should be more mature, no?

I'll up your karma

As will I! :cheer:

And I.

 

[otis]

Your assault on my karma is fine & must give you great satisfaction, but the sarcastic reference is not appreciated. A moderator should be more mature, no?

Hey Gil... Let me refresh your recollection... you started the "assault" on karma and when noted to you by private message you failed to deny it. If you want to talk about maturity then the fact that you care about silly karma is telling by itself. ... So lets see, you attack me, I reciprocate and you complain.

 

[mkras99]

Who is Gil?

 

[redfan259999888]

Who would want to coach for the angriest fan base in the country?

If you are not angry about tonight or a lot of similar nights the last, oh, I don't know, 11 years, then you shouldn't call yourself a fan.

If you want an easy team to root for, then follow Kentucky. Rooting for St. John's is never going to be easy again regardless of what happens to Lavin. The same posters were angry about Norm, about Jarvis, about Fraschilla, about Mahoney...it never ends. How long until the next coach starts getting his "brain bashed in" as Keady put it?

We blame the refs nearly every game, we criticize the f*cking announcers routinely...what coaches wear on the sidelines. We even knock walkons here.

This is a terrible job. Nobody shows up to games, but nobody misses an opportunity to criticize on the message boards.

Want people to show up, then gotta get a winning product, then people will spend their money on them. You can say what you want about them not being real fans then, but that's just how it is.

What you say is true for the casual fan, the people who show up only when the team is winning. The Mets have about 4 million of them, the Yankees even more. At this point I'm a casual Mets fan, not a diehard. I don't take every loss and losing season painfully. When they become good again, I'll show up.

You guys who claim to be diehard, and then don't show up are part of the problem, not the solution. In college basketball, fans are the 6th man. Show up, and be loud, and a good home team becomes almost unbeatable on their own floor. Stay home and rant at your TV when you could have contributed to the win by creating that home court advantage, and you are a pretender, a casual fan.

Even when we win, some guys bitch about a $60 ticket for good seats, which is standard in big conference college basketball even away from NY, in lower income places like Syracuse, Lawrence, Tallahassee. In NYC a MOVIE TICKET costs $15, on LI $12. Throw in popcorn and a soda, and that's another $14.

So, the reason it is so easy to disregard and be disdainful of loudmouths who think they are diehards but don't show up.

I'm not talking about guys who live more than 50 miles away and remain loyal to the program. I'm also not talking about guys with financial hardships or disabilities who can't get to games. I'm also definitely not talking about guys who have been extremely critical of the program, who I disagree with a lot, but who show up frequently or hold season tickets.

But for you to think you are somehow a big fan of this program, a team that has had 4 of the top six players at points during this season as being potential NBA players, and not show up until they win, is pure BS. You are fans of winning, casual fans, and nothing more.

Hey, call me what you want, but I'm not wasting my money on shit ball. Go to MSG, and troop it home on the subway feeling miserable, wishing the damn train would hurry so I could get off.
I won't go see a shitty Lavin team.
Want me to go spend money on a bad SJU team? Then lets get a new coach, I'll go to a few games next year, even though I know they will be horrible next year, why? For no other reason then to show him support.
I refuse to spend my money ever again on a Lavin coached SJU team.

To me last night felt like a Norm Roberts type of game.

 

[Knight]

I wish we had a program with all ducks in a row and a good plan for the future of the program. Looks like our malaise is causing posters to throw elbows. Much more fun when we try to build the program with our hopeful/wishful back and forths.

 

[Anthony Mattia]

Hi guys. Long time reader, first time poster. I've been a fan of SJU basketball since 1982 and have been living and dying with them ever since. My opinion on the coaching issue is this: Should have fired Lavin after last season if you wanted him gone and wanted to get someone worth his salt in to replace him. You would have had a talented roster to tempt a replacement with and given him a year to recruit with that roster in place. Let Lav go after this year and who will want to come? The cupboard will be bare again. My suggestion would be to let Lavin stay another year or 2 and see if he can start to rebuild the roster (after all recruiting is supposed to be his specialty) and if he is still failing let him go then with more of a roster in place (hopefully) so that the new incoming coach is not walking into a complete mess with no players on the roster. Just my .02.

 

[paultzman]

Your assault on my karma is fine & must give you great satisfaction, but the sarcastic reference is not appreciated. A moderator should be more mature, no?

Hey Gil... Let me refresh your recollection... you started the "assault" on karma and when noted to you by private message you failed to deny it. If you want to talk about maturity then the fact that you care about silly karma is telling by itself. ... So lets see, you attack me, I reciprocate and you complain.

Number one, my name is not Gil. You invented that one for whatever reason & I played along. Never assaulted your karma & just vehemently took your passive aggressive, non stop Rivals nonsense to task several times. Karma is not the issue to me. Dispense with the "Gil", "Honorable" references & you will not hear from me. Move on as suggested previously. Utilize PM for further discussion if you desire.

 

[logen]

Hi guys. Long time reader, first time poster. I've been a fan of SJU basketball since 1982 and have been living and dying with them ever since. My opinion on the coaching issue is this: Should have fired Lavin after last season if you wanted him gone and wanted to get someone worth his salt in to replace him. You would have had a talented roster to tempt a replacement with and given him a year to recruit with that roster in place. Let Lav go after this year and who will want to come? The cupboard will be bare again. My suggestion would be to let Lavin stay another year or 2 and see if he can start to rebuild the roster (after all recruiting is supposed to be his specialty) and if he is still failing let him go then with more of a roster in place (hopefully) so that the new incoming coach is not walking into a complete mess with no players on the roster. Just my .02.

Welcome and your suggestion has merit and is a position others on the board share. Kind of a double edged sword because Lavin has brought in one quality recruit (on paper) in the last 3 years and his contributions to the program have been up and down to say the least. So I don't think Lavin has proven to be nearly the recruiter he was purported to be. And I don't see the names being bandied about as very strong SJU possibilities for various reasons. So from an old pool player, I think extending Lavin is nothing more than "poking and hoping" and is just avoiding the inevitable. We waited too long with Roberts (and for those who have a penchant for going back to old posts, I was one of those who supported him way longer than logical) and IMO we should cut ties now with Lavin.