Lavin's Body Of Work At SJU

[paultzman]

Not a believer that the coach can always be praised for everything when things go well or blamed for everything when things go sideways. Too many people that are accountable for a program at this level.

However one thing that the coach is absolutely, unequivocally responsible for is the culture he cultivates within the program.

If there is one word to describe our culture under Lavin it is volatile. Troubling when the objective is just the opposite - stability.

There's been plenty of good. There's been strong recruiting years. The individual success of D'Angelo Harrison on and off the court. The overall public/national notoriety (while not primarily because of on-court results) has improved.

It's not just that there's been bad. It's that it's been so consistent with little improvement, on or off the court. Most all fans could accept what transpired in 2011-2012. But this is Year 5, we are still dealing with the same stuff, and we have been dealing with that same stuff almost every year. Off the court (academic ineligibles, suspensions) and on (uneven, undisciplined play). How many teams in the country don't have a single ejection all year? How many players in the country have been ejected twice this season?

That all comes back to the culture fostered by the coach. If I'm the President evaluating that game last night, what am I thinking about a nationally televised game where we lose by 20, our 14th out of 15 against ranked opponents, and poorly represent both the program and the university? And why do I have reason to believe that even with Sampson, Diallo, and whoever else that anything is going to change, considering what I see before me with a similar recruiting haul now playing as seniors? As a leader in a results-oriented business is there any way I can rationalize this as acceptable?

Very sobering, rational & objective assessment of the program at this point SJU 15. The culture is in dire need of change. I suspect the new SJU President has great experience assessing organizational functioning and effecting change where warranted. I know he has bigger fish to fry, but am confident he will use those skills to address the void you articulated so well.

I'm harsh, but not quite all the way harsh as your post, which I respect. The wheels fell off, plain and simple. If this team had demonstrated this type of behavior and frustration before, I'd agree 100%. Frankly, whether it's celebrating a block with a huge smile and a strut (Mutombo had his charisma, so it's okay with me), or smiling broadly at every foul or turnover (shows a certain hostility), or refusing to go into a game (reason for dismissal), Obekpa I think is a really difficult guy to coach and manage. Loose cannon for sure.

The rest: I'll give them a pass for the night. Except for some Dom moments in the past, and of course Harrison's now reformed behavior, we haven't seen much of it. I think the frustration came from the knowledge that losing Obekpa so early was a likely "L", and rather than fight to overcome it, they fell apart.

Perhaps, like most instances in life, the truth may lie in middle ground between our thoughts Beast. We'll see.

 

[mkras99]

The biggest thing is that fans need to know and understand what they want from this program. For the most part, it seems to change every 5 minutes. And that is the reason they will never be happy.


About 10yrs ago, they wanted a coach who had local ties, who would recruit the city and local areas, who could clean this program up. So they hired Norm, and we all know how that worked out.

So then the fans said, we want a coach that can be the face of the program, a face that people will recognize. We need to have a coach that has that 'NYC swagger'. So they got Lavin, and he has been exactly what we wanted as a coach.

Our last two coaches have been exactly what the fans have wanted...so what's next?

Now look at the players themselves. Everyone said that we needed local players, and so we got them. But all of a sudden those local players weren't good enough and weren't winning enough. Then the fans started to say that we needed good players, regardless of where they are from. So Lavin started recruiting kids from all over the country, and now all over the world. And now our fans are upset again for him not being able to seal the deal with local talent.

People on here claim that NYC is the greatest city in the world (which it may be), and everyone has that NYC swagger/attitude/cockiness.....but then we get pissed if the players act that way on the court.


So what do people want and expect from this program? Because in the end, you can't have it both ways.....

What is it you want?

To be a contrarian and argue for argument's sake.

Separately, I find it funny that marillac, who was probably the most entitled/nastiest poster during the Norm era, is chastising others for doing the same. Marillac, be honest, Lavin has pictures of you in a compromising position, right?

 

[SJU1512]

Not a believer that the coach can always be praised for everything when things go well or blamed for everything when things go sideways. Too many people that are accountable for a program at this level.

However one thing that the coach is absolutely, unequivocally responsible for is the culture he cultivates within the program.

If there is one word to describe our culture under Lavin it is volatile. Troubling when the objective is just the opposite - stability.

There's been plenty of good. There's been strong recruiting years. The individual success of D'Angelo Harrison on and off the court. The overall public/national notoriety (while not primarily because of on-court results) has improved.

It's not just that there's been bad. It's that it's been so consistent with little improvement, on or off the court. Most all fans could accept what transpired in 2011-2012. But this is Year 5, we are still dealing with the same stuff, and we have been dealing with that same stuff almost every year. Off the court (academic ineligibles, suspensions) and on (uneven, undisciplined play). How many teams in the country don't have a single ejection all year? How many players in the country have been ejected twice this season?

That all comes back to the culture fostered by the coach. If I'm the President evaluating that game last night, what am I thinking about a nationally televised game where we lose by 20, our 14th out of 15 against ranked opponents, and poorly represent both the program and the university? And why do I have reason to believe that even with Sampson, Diallo, and whoever else that anything is going to change, considering what I see before me with a similar recruiting haul now playing as seniors? As a leader in a results-oriented business is there any way I can rationalize this as acceptable?

Very sobering, rational & objective assessment of the program at this point SJU 15. The culture is in dire need of change. I suspect the new SJU President has great experience assessing organizational functioning and effecting change where warranted. I know he has bigger fish to fry, but am confident he will use those skills to address the void you articulated so well.

I'm harsh, but not quite all the way harsh as your post, which I respect. The wheels fell off, plain and simple. If this team had demonstrated this type of behavior and frustration before, I'd agree 100%. Frankly, whether it's celebrating a block with a huge smile and a strut (Mutombo had his charisma, so it's okay with me), or smiling broadly at every foul or turnover (shows a certain hostility), or refusing to go into a game (reason for dismissal), Obekpa I think is a really difficult guy to coach and manage. Loose cannon for sure.

The rest: I'll give them a pass for the night. Except for some Dom moments in the past, and of course Harrison's now reformed behavior, we haven't seen much of it. I think the frustration came from the knowledge that losing Obekpa so early was a likely "L", and rather than fight to overcome it, they fell apart.

Fair points, Beast, and appreciate your analysis.

I like Obekpa. Enjoy watching him play. But agree with you, he seems to be a mercurial kid, and likely hasn't been easy to coach. Dealing with this type of dynamic is something every coach is going to encounter, and is certainly not an indictment, especially in isolation.

But Jordan can be described as mercurial and difficult to coach, being kind, as well. Harrison, while an incredible success story, could have been described similarly the first 50% of his career here. Pointer, who is clearly an affable guy off the court, has been involved in a number of composure-meltdown altercations on the court. Greene and Branch can be the nicest guys in the world, they aren't high impact players at this level.

I don't want to strip away the important subtleties of each individual situation. But at some point the aggregate starts to speak. The coach is responsible for bringing in the players, so he doesn't get a credit for having to deal with difficult situations with those players, especially if they are not in isolation and begin to mount.

In Year 5 this is what the coach responsible for bringing in the players has:

- Two high-talent players who are difficult to coach and have on and off issues (one far more than the other).

- Two high-talent players, who have had their uneven moments, but are mostly the better for it, having evolved as players and people in their time here and are turning in outstanding senior seasons.

- Two great kids who are being asked to do more than their talent allows them to.

- 7 scholarships by the coach's own constructive admission not capable of contributing on a team currently in 8th place in conference.

If this is harsh, I wish it wasn't. It's certainly not all bad. I just don't know how to conclude that it's good either this far along into the regime.

 

[logen]

Who would want to coach for the angriest fan base in the country?

If you are not angry about tonight or a lot of similar nights the last, oh, I don't know, 11 years, then you shouldn't call yourself a fan.

If you want an easy team to root for, then follow Kentucky. Rooting for St. John's is never going to be easy again regardless of what happens to Lavin. The same posters were angry about Norm, about Jarvis, about Fraschilla, about Mahoney...it never ends. How long until the next coach starts getting his "brain bashed in" as Keady put it?

We blame the refs nearly every game, we criticize the f*cking announcers routinely...what coaches wear on the sidelines. We even knock walkons here.

This is a terrible job. Nobody shows up to games, but nobody misses an opportunity to criticize on the message boards.

So the fans are the problem? I think not; I think the lousy product, on and off the court is the problem. Criticizing a coach is part of the game on any level of sports; it is the classic "goes along with the territory." Further, any coach who refuses a job solely because of the fan base; in other words all other factors say take it, is so very much in the wrong profession.

 

[Ray Morgan]

As for the player meltdowns, I'm surprised they have held it together this long. Harrison's restraint has been amazing. Just look at this board. There is a lot of anger and frustration. Multiply that by a few thousand and you can begin to understand how the players must feel. Harrison talked of a final 4 before season 1. Now it looks like the closest he will get to the dance is in front of his TV. The same for Dom, who is killing it this year despite playing big minutes and banging with guys bigger and stronger than him all season. It just isn't fair to these guys.

 

[johnnycomelately]

Good post. it should be noted that regardless of Lavin's mixed record, going in another direction after this season could lead to a 3-4 year death spiral, simply from transition and loss of recruits. We certainly don't want to become an established doormat in the reconstituted Big East. it's very hard to change that perception.

 

[beast of the east]

Who would want to coach for the angriest fan base in the country?

If you are not angry about tonight or a lot of similar nights the last, oh, I don't know, 11 years, then you shouldn't call yourself a fan.

If you want an easy team to root for, then follow Kentucky. Rooting for St. John's is never going to be easy again regardless of what happens to Lavin. The same posters were angry about Norm, about Jarvis, about Fraschilla, about Mahoney...it never ends. How long until the next coach starts getting his "brain bashed in" as Keady put it?

We blame the refs nearly every game, we criticize the f*cking announcers routinely...what coaches wear on the sidelines. We even knock walkons here.

This is a terrible job. Nobody shows up to games, but nobody misses an opportunity to criticize on the message boards.

So the fans are the problem? I think not; I think the lousy product, on and off the court is the problem. Criticizing a coach is part of the game on any level of sports; it is the classic "goes along with the territory." Further, any coach who refuses a job solely because of the fan base; in other words all other factors say take it, is so very much in the wrong profession.

No, of course our fans aren't the problem. But overall, our fans don't compare to Creighton, for example, that filled an arena with positive vibes to support a team that had lost 9 in a row. We complain about the school not hiring a 5-star coach, but our alumni contribution rate, in one of the wealthiest cities in the world, is among the lowest of all colleges. I've read somewhere that alumni contributions fund top athletic departments. Yea, fans aren't responsible for the team losing, but overall our fans are not as supportive as they believe they are.

 

[SJU1512]

As for the player meltdowns, I'm surprised they have held it together this long. Harrison's restraint has been amazing. Just look at this board. There is a lot of anger and frustration. Multiply that by a few thousand and you can begin to understand how the players must feel. Harrison talked of a final 4 before season 1. Now it looks like the closest he will get to the dance is in front of his TV. The same for Dom, who is killing it this year despite playing big minutes and banging with guys bigger and stronger than him all season. It just isn't fair to these guys.

In a night filled with disappointing moments, none were greater for me than the camera being on Harrison when he went to the bench after fouling out. Really felt for the kid. The enthusiasm and energy seemed sapped, and he almost looked numb with everything that's gone on the last month.

 

[paultzman]

Good post. it should be noted that regardless of Lavin's mixed record, going in another direction after this season could lead to a 3-4 year death spiral, simply from transition and loss of recruits. We certainly don't want to become an established doormat in the reconstituted Big East. it's very hard to change that perception.

I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

 

[Avon Barksdale]

The bottom line is that the fan base's anger is 100% warranted.

The program has been mismanaged for a very very long time.

Jarvis shouldnt have been fired six games into the season. Fire him after we win the NIT or after the 2004 season.

Norm was a bad hire, especially with the other candidates available, then to boot he was kept around too long.

Lavin has underachieved immensely here any way you wanna slice it. We are headed for another NCAA-less post season, now in Year 5 with Lavin.

We have every right to be mad and after last night's showing, the public flogging of Lavin should just get worse.

 

[otis]

[
I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

I agree with the sentiments of The Honorable Paultzman, but add that a new coach may possibly enhance recruiting.

 

[SJU1512]

Good post. it should be noted that regardless of Lavin's mixed record, going in another direction after this season could lead to a 3-4 year death spiral, simply from transition and loss of recruits. We certainly don't want to become an established doormat in the reconstituted Big East. it's very hard to change that perception.

I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

Agreed. Want to win every game we can this year and sign best recruiting class possible, but unless there is massive trajectory change in the next month, don't see how it really impacts what current regime is consistently capable of. We may be looking at it. We have a kid 3rd all-time in scoring as a senior (hard to do much better than that get from a recruiting standpoint) and are 3-6 in conference. Always possible we could do more with next wave of recruits, but same could be said in most any situation. Little in current body of work to suggest that is likely, and that's the issue.

Agree there is downside to making a change as well, but IMO it can be a bit overblown. (1) Look at where we are currently, it's not like we are looking at change after 2-3 straight first-round NCAA exits. This softens the risk. (2) How long do people think it's going to take WoJo to get Marquette going at high level? My guess is they are competing for top of conference as soon as next year. How long is it going to take Dan Hurley to get his next program going? Harbaugh at Michigan, for perhaps most extreme example?

Wrong, or even mediocre hire could hurt us further - there is worse than Lavin. But right hire and we improve, and quickly - there is better than Lavin.

 

[johnnycomelately]

What Coach do you have in mind who has a reasonable chance to come here? I wouldn't immediately dismiss Lavin's recruiting. Let's not forget there're two guys who would be on this year's team currently on NBA rosters. We unfortunately didn't benefit too much from their short tenure at SJU.

 

[Ray Morgan]

Good post. it should be noted that regardless of Lavin's mixed record, going in another direction after this season could lead to a 3-4 year death spiral, simply from transition and loss of recruits. We certainly don't want to become an established doormat in the reconstituted Big East. it's very hard to change that perception.

We shouldn't be afraid to make a move just because there may be some short term pain. We have to do what's best for the long term health of the program. We are not healthy now on many levels anyway. Lavin goes after top 100 players, and can get them. That's a good thing. However, the ones he gets have holes in their games and a few with holes in their heads, leading to some ugly play and off the court issues. Yet Lavin's desperation and thin bench forces him to play them until past the breaking point. And some of these players therefore learn nothing. Look at Obekpa and Sheed this year. Not a good approach.

Like I've said before, some of our top 100 players could have benefited from a year on the bench learning a little. Instead, they play big minutes right away, acting like they are NBA ready. Then it takes years to break those bad habits. On top of that, they have all played without a single real floor general, meaning a guy that protects and distributes the ball, and breaks down defenses leading to open men that he will find. Not a single player that make those around him better.

 

[stjohnschris]

Good post. it should be noted that regardless of Lavin's mixed record, going in another direction after this season could lead to a 3-4 year death spiral, simply from transition and loss of recruits. We certainly don't want to become an established doormat in the reconstituted Big East. it's very hard to change that perception.

The program will be exactly the same every year that Lavin is here, you will see no change. We will be a perpetual bubble team that makes it in once every four to five years. We won't make the tournament this year because the product on the floor isn't good enough to be in the tournament. If you don't think this falls squarely on the coaching staff, you're in a state of denial. We have enough talent on the court to win, but we don't have a coaching staff that knows how to win.

 

[fun]

The biggest thing is that fans need to know and understand what they want from this program. For the most part, it seems to change every 5 minutes. And that is the reason they will never be happy.


About 10yrs ago, they wanted a coach who had local ties, who would recruit the city and local areas, who could clean this program up. So they hired Norm, and we all know how that worked out.

So then the fans said, we want a coach that can be the face of the program, a face that people will recognize. We need to have a coach that has that 'NYC swagger'. So they got Lavin, and he has been exactly what we wanted as a coach.

Our last two coaches have been exactly what the fans have wanted...so what's next?

Now look at the players themselves. Everyone said that we needed local players, and so we got them. But all of a sudden those local players weren't good enough and weren't winning enough. Then the fans started to say that we needed good players, regardless of where they are from. So Lavin started recruiting kids from all over the country, and now all over the world. And now our fans are upset again for him not being able to seal the deal with local talent.

People on here claim that NYC is the greatest city in the world (which it may be), and everyone has that NYC swagger/attitude/cockiness.....but then we get pissed if the players act that way on the court.


So what do people want and expect from this program? Because in the end, you can't have it both ways.....

What is it you want?

To be a contrarian and argue for argument's sake.

Separately, I find it funny that marillac, who was probably the most entitled/nastiest poster during the Norm era, is chastising others for doing the same. Marillac, be honest, Lavin has pictures of you in a compromising position, right?

I've had weddings I was less emotionally invested in than Marillac is in Lavin.

 

[TonyinFairfield]

Good post. it should be noted that regardless of Lavin's mixed record, going in another direction after this season could lead to a 3-4 year death spiral, simply from transition and loss of recruits. We certainly don't want to become an established doormat in the reconstituted Big East. it's very hard to change that perception.

I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

Paultz, a lot of what you say makes sense. As you, I'm willing to put up with some pain in order to rebuild. Where I have a different opinion is that it may take more than several years to rebuild. Five or more years to rebuild is, in my opinion, unacceptable. Not saying that will be the case, just that it might. I don't know. Maybe I'm just a little more risk adverse than you are.

And like you, I say, "Beat Creighton!" :cheer:

 

[TonyinFairfield]

The biggest thing is that fans need to know and understand what they want from this program. For the most part, it seems to change every 5 minutes. And that is the reason they will never be happy.


About 10yrs ago, they wanted a coach who had local ties, who would recruit the city and local areas, who could clean this program up. So they hired Norm, and we all know how that worked out.

So then the fans said, we want a coach that can be the face of the program, a face that people will recognize. We need to have a coach that has that 'NYC swagger'. So they got Lavin, and he has been exactly what we wanted as a coach.

Our last two coaches have been exactly what the fans have wanted...so what's next?

Now look at the players themselves. Everyone said that we needed local players, and so we got them. But all of a sudden those local players weren't good enough and weren't winning enough. Then the fans started to say that we needed good players, regardless of where they are from. So Lavin started recruiting kids from all over the country, and now all over the world. And now our fans are upset again for him not being able to seal the deal with local talent.

People on here claim that NYC is the greatest city in the world (which it may be), and everyone has that NYC swagger/attitude/cockiness.....but then we get pissed if the players act that way on the court.


So what do people want and expect from this program? Because in the end, you can't have it both ways.....

What is it you want?

To be a contrarian and argue for argument's sake.

Separately, I find it funny that marillac, who was probably the most entitled/nastiest poster during the Norm era, is chastising others for doing the same. Marillac, be honest, Lavin has pictures of you in a compromising position, right?

I've had weddings I was less emotionally invested in than Marillac is in Lavin.

As a groom? Or as a guest?

 

[ManhattAn1]

Overall, I would like Lavin to stay. I would give him a two year contract extensison so makes it a total of 3 and put some contractual language in there so the school is not on the hook. This is his last chance at a major job and unless he wants to go back to TV he has to make this work. The changes I would make are to the staff.

I also think Monasch needs to go. Bring in somebody who has an idea how to be an AD let him have a year of Lavin and then let him make the decision. Monsach should not have the opportunity to hire another Men's Basketball Coach.

 

[stjohnschris]

Good post. it should be noted that regardless of Lavin's mixed record, going in another direction after this season could lead to a 3-4 year death spiral, simply from transition and loss of recruits. We certainly don't want to become an established doormat in the reconstituted Big East. it's very hard to change that perception.

I would be be willing to make a sacrifice & go in another direction. I just don't have confidence that the current regime can achieve & sustain reasonable success. There is just too much volatility & drama for my blood. If it takes several years to rebuild, so be it. Should we lose recruits in the process, reluctantly I'm ok with that as well. I'm not reacting emotionally to the Butler debacle, just coming to a logical conclusion in my mind. Beat Creighton!

Paultz, a lot of what you say makes sense. As you, I'm willing to put up with some pain in order to rebuild. Where I have a different opinion is that it may take more than several years to rebuild. Five or more years to rebuild is, in my opinion, unacceptable. Not saying that will be the case, just that it might. I don't know. Maybe I'm just a little more risk adverse than you are.

And like you, I say, "Beat Creighton!" :cheer:

rebuild with a capable coach could be as little as one or two down years. I think we will see WoJo at the top of the conference in year 3, maybe even as soon as next year. I'm fine with a rebuild, as long as I see a coach who knows how to roll up his sleeves and coach basketball.