It begins...

[lawmanfan]

Although I am reluctant to weigh in on this thread, here are a few things to consider that may be relevant to the discussion.

1.  In the phraseology "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," life comes before liberty.  That seems relevant in a context where 600,000+ people are dead and others insist on their "liberty" to be unvaccinated.

2.  Liberty is not an unbounded proposition.  In the non-governmental context, your liberty to do or say a thing is matched equally by someone else's liberty to respond.  You have the liberty to say things that others may find offensive.  Others have the liberty to boycott you either individually or as a business.  You have the liberty to walk around without a shirt or shoes; others have the liberty to deny you entry if you are not wearing a shirt or shoes.  You have the liberty to decline vaccination; an employer or business has the liberty to tell you to find another job or to dine or shop elsewhere.  Liberty is a two-way street.

3.  In the governmental context, the state has the right to create rules for public safety, health, and economic protection.  This is why there are seat-belt laws, no smoking signs, mandatory auto insurance, mandatory vaccination for school attendance and travel to certain countries, etc.  Of course in this country we prefer that the government have as light a footprint as possible because of the tension between personal liberty and the protection of the community.

4.  As a matter of basic science, unvaccinated people pose a risk not only to other unvaccinated people, but also to vaccinated people in both the short and long term.  The risk to other unvaccinated people - some of whom are unable to be vaccinated for one reason or another - goes without saying.  The short-term risk to vaccinated people is that vaccination is not complete protection against infection.  It is largely protective against infection, and it reduces the severity of illness, but there is still some risk.  More importantly, the long-term risk to vaccinated people is that each time a virus replicates, there is a chance of mutation.  As time goes on, mutation becomes inevitable.  (This of course is how we got the Delta variant).  Viruses do not mutate to become less effective, they mutate to become more effective.  So the longer the virus circulates as a result of the large number of unvaccinated people, the greater the odds are that it will mutate into a form against which vaccination will be less effective. 

Certainly everyone is free to do what they want.  However, someone who chooses not to be vaccinated because they view that as an exercise of their individual liberty should not complain if they are denied entry by others who consider protecting themselves and contributing to the common good to be an exercise of their own individual liberty.

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

 

Viruses mutate constantly, which many times the mutation is weaker and minute that one never is aware of its mutation.  For an example, the flu virus is constantly mutating and changing, which is why doctors recommend people get the flu vaccine every year.  It's a vaccine that I've never had and I've also never had the flu.  The Covid virus has also been mutating for a year.   

Secondly, I've had Covid (I had it March of 2020).  I felt like I was dealing with allergy symptoms as I occasionally deal with allergies, particularly around late February and early April as that's when he pollen levels are high in my area.  The allergy symptoms lingered for about two or three days before I lost my ability to taste and smell.  I lost my ability to taste and smell for three days and then it fairly quickly subsided.  I dealt with a dry cough for about 1 1/2 weeks afterwards, and woke up one morning and it was gone.  

Here's the thing: I'll take my chances and continue to build my immune system naturally than to take a trial shot at this juncture.  I often exercise, eat fairly well, drink my share of water, and take supplements, vitamins and natural herbs.  This is a country (supposedly) built on freedom and right of choice, and not have to be badgered and ostracized for not wanting to take a vaccine shot.  If people want to wait a year, two years or more before they deciding to take it (or, if they ever take it at all), then that is their right, as well as it should be.    

Never said you didn't have the right to do what you want, nobody has.  But having freedom to make choices doesn't exempt you from the consequences of those choices.  You be you.  But when people complain about being "ostracized" for making choices that put others at risk, well it seems a bit whiny.  You made your choice and basically told the rest of the world to screw off.   Maybe just own that and live with the results of your choice.  The rest of us have to.  


 

You have your beliefs and I have mine.  We can agree to disagree until further evidence.  Press on.  

You have your right to your belief, as misinformed as it is. And you have the right to your choice, as foolish as it is. But you don't have a right to not be subject to restrictions based on your reckless choice, or employment if your choice conflicts with your employer's requirements, and you whining about it just makes you look even worse.

 

[ohiofan]

GUYS - PLEASE DO NOT MAKE PERSONAL ATTACKS OR THIS THREAD WILL GO THE WAY OF PREVIOUS VACCINE DISCUSSIONS.

 

[fuchsia]

LMF, you left out the belief by some that the lightest possible government foot print allows those with more resources to get their way in disputes, a phenomenon which goes back to the time of trust-busting and extends all the way to our current era of "how many legislators can you buy?"

 

[redmannorth]

 

Viruses mutate constantly, which many times the mutation is weaker and minute that one never is aware of its mutation.  For an example, the flu virus is constantly mutating and changing, which is why doctors recommend people get the flu vaccine every year.  It's a vaccine that I've never had and I've also never had the flu.  The Covid virus has also been mutating for a year.   

Secondly, I've had Covid (I had it March of 2020).  I felt like I was dealing with allergy symptoms as I occasionally deal with allergies, particularly around late February and early April as that's when he pollen levels are high in my area.  The allergy symptoms lingered for about two or three days before I lost my ability to taste and smell.  I lost my ability to taste and smell for three days and then it fairly quickly subsided.  I dealt with a dry cough for about 1 1/2 weeks afterwards, and woke up one morning and it was gone.  

Here's the thing: I'll take my chances and continue to build my immune system naturally than to take a trial shot at this juncture.  I often exercise, eat fairly well, drink my share of water, and take supplements, vitamins and natural herbs.  This is a country (supposedly) built on freedom and right of choice, and not have to be badgered and ostracized for not wanting to take a vaccine shot.  If people want to wait a year, two years or more before they deciding to take it (or, if they ever take it at all), then that is their right, as well as it should be.    

Never said you didn't have the right to do what you want, nobody has.  But having freedom to make choices doesn't exempt you from the consequences of those choices.  You be you.  But when people complain about being "ostracized" for making choices that put others at risk, well it seems a bit whiny.  You made your choice and basically told the rest of the world to screw off.   Maybe just own that and live with the results of your choice.  The rest of us have to.  


 

You have your beliefs and I have mine.  We can agree to disagree until further evidence.  Press on.  

You have your right to your belief, as misinformed as it is. And you have the right to your choice, as foolish as it is. But you don't have a right to not be subject to restrictions based on your reckless choice, or employment if your choice conflicts with your employer's requirements, and you whining about it just makes you look even worse.

Wow, wow, wow Dinkins was super polite in his response, it could not have been better. He did not try to justify his position but rather stated " we can agree to disagree until further evidence " even showing that his position is not etched in stone. Then he asked to " press on " , clearly no need for anyone to come down on him and knock his position. He was greatly respectful and deserves to be treated accordingly. Press on.   

 

[mjmaherjr]

I’ve developed a vaccine redmen19 once we stick you with the needle you treat people the way you would want to be treated. I’m gonna get rich

 

[SJUFAN2]

LMF, you left out the belief by some that the lightest possible government foot print allows those with more resources to get their way in disputes, a phenomenon which goes back to the time of trust-busting and extends all the way to our current era of "how many legislators can you buy?"

Where is Teddy Roosevelt when you need him?  /media/kunena/emoticons/smile.png

 

[fuchsia]

I’ve developed a vaccine redmen19 once we stick you with the needle you treat people the way you would want to be treated. I’m gonna get rich

Do we get to call it the MJMJr Golden Rule Jab?

 

[austour]

Every healthy person should get vaccinated or isolate.   If you think about it though, if the vaccine is so effective, anyone who is vaccinated should care one bit about people who aren't vaccinated.  After all we are told it's the unvaccinated that are at risk and not the vaccinated. 

 

So what you are telling me is that I should not be concerned if, due to the irresponsibility of others, I become an unwitting carrier and pass it on to some other irresponsible party who dies.  Cool.  I feel much better now.

 

[JohnnyFan]

Great, great post by Lawmanfan!  

 

[lawmanfan]

LMF, you left out the belief by some that the lightest possible government foot print allows those with more resources to get their way in disputes, a phenomenon which goes back to the time of trust-busting and extends all the way to our current era of "how many legislators can you buy?"
 

Don't you think my posts are long enough already?  Most would probably object to me getting into EVEN more detail.  If only the site had the option for footnotes on posts...

 

[mjmaherjr]

I’ve developed a vaccine redmen19 once we stick you with the needle you treat people the way you would want to be treated. I’m gonna get rich

Do we get to call it the MJMJr Golden Rule Jab?

I like it. Plus the only side effects are lobster roll craving and bronx pale ale craving

 

[redmannorth]

I’ve developed a vaccine redmen19 once we stick you with the needle you treat people the way you would want to be treated. I’m gonna get rich

Do we get to call it the MJMJr Golden Rule Jab?

I like it. Plus the only side effects are lobster roll craving and bronx pale ale craving

I have both of those cravings constantly and I have yet to receive the MJMJR Golden Rule Jab ? 
So what the hell am I afflicted with ? 

 

[MainMan]

Although I am reluctant to weigh in on this thread, here are a few things to consider that may be relevant to the discussion.

1.  In the phraseology "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," life comes before liberty.  That seems relevant in a context where 600,000+ people are dead and others insist on their "liberty" to be unvaccinated.

2.  Liberty is not an unbounded proposition.  In the non-governmental context, your liberty to do or say a thing is matched equally by someone else's liberty to respond.  You have the liberty to say things that others may find offensive.  Others have the liberty to boycott you either individually or as a business.  You have the liberty to walk around without a shirt or shoes; others have the liberty to deny you entry if you are not wearing a shirt or shoes.  You have the liberty to decline vaccination; an employer or business has the liberty to tell you to find another job or to dine or shop elsewhere.  Liberty is a two-way street.

3.  In the governmental context, the state has the right to create rules for public safety, health, and economic protection.  This is why there are seat-belt laws, no smoking signs, mandatory auto insurance, mandatory vaccination for school attendance and travel to certain countries, etc.  Of course in this country we prefer that the government have as light a footprint as possible because of the tension between personal liberty and the protection of the community.

4.  As a matter of basic science, unvaccinated people pose a risk not only to other unvaccinated people, but also to vaccinated people in both the short and long term.  The risk to other unvaccinated people - some of whom are unable to be vaccinated for one reason or another - goes without saying.  The short-term risk to vaccinated people is that vaccination is not complete protection against infection.  It is largely protective against infection, and it reduces the severity of illness, but there is still some risk.  More importantly, the long-term risk to vaccinated people is that each time a virus replicates, there is a chance of mutation.  As time goes on, mutation becomes inevitable.  (This of course is how we got the Delta variant).  Viruses do not mutate to become less effective, they mutate to become more effective.  So the longer the virus circulates as a result of the large number of unvaccinated people, the greater the odds are that it will mutate into a form against which vaccination will be less effective. 

Certainly everyone is free to do what they want.  However, someone who chooses not to be vaccinated because they view that as an exercise of their individual liberty should not complain if they are denied entry by others who consider protecting themselves and contributing to the common good to be an exercise of their own individual liberty.

In summation, your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. 

 

 

[SI1996]

I’ve developed a vaccine redmen19 once we stick you with the needle you treat people the way you would want to be treated. I’m gonna get rich

Do we get to call it the MJMJr Golden Rule Jab?

I like it. Plus the only side effects are lobster roll craving and bronx pale ale craving

I have both of those cravings constantly and I have yet to receive the MJMJR Golden Rule Jab ? 
So what the hell am I afflicted with ? 

Maheritis 

 

[MCNPA]

More to the point of why people should get the vaccine, the reason people are still dying in large numbers is SOLELY because not enough are getting the vaccine.  Frankly the reason we are even having these discussions right now is because not enough have gotten the vaccine.  We can’t get US society back to “ normal” because of those who want get the vaccine.  If the U.S. Gets to about 70-80% full vaccinated, you will see little of this disease around anywhere in the USA because it doesn’t travel well amongst the vaccinated.  It’s going to be here with us around the world but in the USA we have an opportunity to squash it.  It’s being squandered. 

Not sure who’s word people are waiting for about the vaccine’s safety, but billions have gotten doses without any problem.  It is now the largest study of a drug in the history of the world and the effectiveness and safety profile is more than obvious. The approvals with without a doubt follow, but that is more a function of delay to put all of the data on paper with controlled, randomized trials etc.  Get the vaccine people! 

 

[mjmaherjr]

I’ve developed a vaccine redmen19 once we stick you with the needle you treat people the way you would want to be treated. I’m gonna get rich

Do we get to call it the MJMJr Golden Rule Jab?

I like it. Plus the only side effects are lobster roll craving and bronx pale ale craving

I have both of those cravings constantly and I have yet to receive the MJMJR Golden Rule Jab ? 
So what the hell am I afflicted with ? 

Maheritis 

Maheritis has many other benefits too. Go to a mexican restaurant and order a Mahergarita

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

 

Wow, wow, wow Dinkins was super polite in his response, it could not have been better. He did not try to justify his position but rather stated " we can agree to disagree until further evidence " even showing that his position is not etched in stone. Then he asked to " press on " , clearly no need for anyone to come down on him and knock his position. He was greatly respectful and deserves to be treated accordingly. Press on.   

I didn't personally attack him. In my opinion, his view is foolish and reckless. That is what I said. This isn't talking basketball. This is a serious issue with serious consequences.

 

[JohnnyFan]

Maheritis is associated with a fever of exactly 114 degrees while at MSG and in excess of 150 degrees while in Carnesecca Arena. 

 

[redmannorth]

 

Wow, wow, wow Dinkins was super polite in his response, it could not have been better. He did not try to justify his position but rather stated " we can agree to disagree until further evidence " even showing that his position is not etched in stone. Then he asked to " press on " , clearly no need for anyone to come down on him and knock his position. He was greatly respectful and deserves to be treated accordingly. Press on.   

I didn't personally attack him. In my opinion, his view is foolish and reckless. That is what I said. This isn't talking basketball. This is a serious issue with serious consequences.

We all agree it is a serious issue with serious consequences but stating that Dinkins view is foolish and reckless is certainly a personal attack against him.  
may I suggest you agree to disagree with his point of view and please press on. 
thanks in advance.