Heron

[quote="Andrew" post=322010]I don’t think St. John’s hid the injury to increase crowd size. I do know the Mets will often wait to the last minute to make an announcement if for example have to replace Syndegaard with Chris Flexen and it’s a home game.[/quote]

They obviously didn’t hide the news to increase attendance. That’s bizarre even for our fans.

If anything they waited until the last minute to see if he could go or they didn’t want to give Providence and edge preparing.

This is amateur athletics. The only reason most pro teams release injury reports is because it is mandatory.

Our fans think they are owed something for just buying a ticket.
 
[quote="Marillac" post=322012][quote="Andrew" post=322010]I don’t think St. John’s hid the injury to increase crowd size. I do know the Mets will often wait to the last minute to make an announcement if for example have to replace Syndegaard with Chris Flexen and it’s a home game.[/quote]

They obviously didn’t hide the news to increase attendance. That’s bizarre even for our fans.

If anything they waited until the last minute to see if he could go or they didn’t want to give Providence and edge preparing.

This is amateur athletics. The only reason most pro teams release injury reports is because it is mandatory.

Our fans think they are owed something for just buying a ticket.[/quote]

Yes, their intention probably was due to game preparation, however that doesn't work in college basketball especially when you're talking about a leading scorer for the team. There was literally no good for us losing Heron and for Providence it was a massive boost. It's not like we have a talented Heron replacement they could've prepped for. We just lost one player on an extremely thin team. That's it.

Again, basketball is a game of momentum. This type of last second good news could be enough to boost Providence and wake them up. They killed us on the boards, which is largely an effort stat. The crowd wasn't in it most the game. Is that because they found out last second Heron was out? For some, yes. It's a momentum killer no matter how you look at it, so all I'm saying is it's better to not make it a surprise.

Do you genuinely think this is a strategy that should be repeated in the future? If so, we'll agree to disagree.
 
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Comparing a real life tragedy to college basketball is just a strawman so you can always have something more serious to compare it to and make it look menial in perspective, which of course it is. No one is debating that, but at the same time this is the Big East in a major D1 conference with brand name schools most of which are nationally known with games on national TV and some of the top players in the country. Games are played at MSG, the world's most famous arena with 17,000-18,000 fans. Our Twitter following for the men's hoops is nearly 30,000. You can say this is amateur sports and be correct. You can say it's just a game where you put a ball in a hoop and be correct. But major college hoops is way bigger than you imply at the same time. This program gets national coverage and exceeds coverage on some of our pro teams when we are legit. Just be honest and accurate about injuries and tell the fans. People spend big bucks on tickets, merch, donations, R&W, and have a right to know IMO. One second he looks fine and the next he can't walk and no one says anything until after the game starts. That is not typical regardless of what you say.
 
Let's say that Mullin disclosed that Heron was questionable/unlikely a day or two prior. There were two possible outcomes:

1. Heron doesn't play- the announcement for everyone, including the fans/Providence, is far less surprising, and thus less of a momentum shifter.
2. Heron plays- Providence gets demotivated and we (plus the fans) are energized. The momentum is reversed and works in our favor.

I mean, this is just psychology and the results are what they are. To me, it seems there is no downside to disclosing this. We had no replacement for Heron that they could've prepped for and this is all about momentum. There is not a sport out there that relies on momentum as much as basketball.

This staff is inexperienced and screws up, so when they make an odd decision like this it's fair to criticize them and question why other coaches don't pull this stuff. Just see our OOC schedule for reference. At least we were able to salvage that by going 12-1. This game? Not so much.
 
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Perhaps it was a non hoops related injury sustained day before game the staff was not comfortable sharing the details about. May be time to move on from ”Herongate” & be happy he’s back. Btw, tendinitis was referenced in reports as something that he has wrestled with for some time, not root cause of this incident. No mas!
 
[quote="Adam" post=322015][quote="Marillac" post=322012][quote="Andrew" post=322010]I don’t think St. John’s hid the injury to increase crowd size. I do know the Mets will often wait to the last minute to make an announcement if for example have to replace Syndegaard with Chris Flexen and it’s a home game.[/quote]

They obviously didn’t hide the news to increase attendance. That’s bizarre even for our fans.

If anything they waited until the last minute to see if he could go or they didn’t want to give Providence and edge preparing.

This is amateur athletics. The only reason most pro teams release injury reports is because it is mandatory.

Our fans think they are owed something for just buying a ticket.[/quote]

Yes, their intention probably was due to game preparation, however that doesn't work in college basketball especially when you're talking about a leading scorer for the team. There was literally no good for us losing Heron and for Providence it was a massive boost. It's not like we have a talented Heron replacement they could've prepped for. We just lost one player on an extremely thin team. That's it.

Again, basketball is a game of momentum. This type of last second good news could be enough to boost Providence and wake them up. They killed us on the boards, which is largely an effort stat. The crowd wasn't in it most the game. Is that because they found out last second Heron was out? For some, yes. It's a momentum killer no matter how you look at it, so all I'm saying is it's better to not make it a surprise.

Do you genuinely think this is a strategy that should be repeated in the future? If so, we'll agree to disagree.[/quote]

I don’t understand your post. Preparing for the team you are actually facing is always better. Belichick is the greatest coach of all time and he is always in trouble for manipulating injury reports and being purposefully nontransparent.

Likely 1/3 of Providence’s overall game prep revolved around Heron. We just won’t win any games without Ponds or Heron.
 
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[quote="Mike Zaun" post=322005][quote="SJU85" post=322003][quote="Mike Zaun" post=321967]It was definitely confusing and not handled professionally. So was it a bruise or tendinitis? They are totally different. Bruises can swell obviously, but usually are fine after some ice and a good knee wrap. Tendinitis is something that according to WebMD takes weeks to recover from. It's not that anyone's calling Heron a wuss, it's that the admin isn't being up front with the fans about this and it loses trust. A lot of it just didn't make much sense.

Either way, let's hope he's ok and that he plays tomorrow.[/quote]

So you can’t have tendinitis and bruise your knee? I didn’t realize they were mutually exclusive.[/quote]

They didn't frame it that way. They said "he has a bruise on his knee". Then they said "it's tendinitis". Are those not different? Yes you can have both, but it seems the diagnosis switched. Yes you can have both, but if that's the case say, "He has been battling tendinitis and recently aggravated it after bruising his knee vs. Marquette. Initially it was fine but it swelled up significantly and he's being cautious". I know it feels like nitpicking to people, but those are different things. If a pitcher has an elbow bruise, who cares? If he has tendinitis, that's very different. One is typically chronic (tendinitis) and lasts way longer and the other is usually acute (bruising) and won't prevent you from much. They have to realize that after the LoVett situation (he was fine he just quit), the Keita situation (he was day to day then needed surgery and was out 6 or 7 weeks), and the Mets (many SJ fans are also Mets fans), fans will be skeptical if it's not clear and accurate.[/quote]

A reporter mentioned he had been battling tendinitis, now I might have missed it but the only thing that was official was a bruised knee.

And what the Mets and St. John’s are the only ones who get a medical condition initially wrong? Where’s Jacoby Ellsbury these days?
 
[quote="Adam" post=322008][quote="SJU85" post=322002][quote="Adam" post=321952][quote="SJU85" post=321949][quote="Adam" post=321943]Not sure if this has been brought up, but I was annoyed even before the game started that Heron's injury wasn't disclosed prior. The reason being is it gave us all the "here we go again" demotivating feeling right as we were getting into our seats. It also probably energized Providence... talk about a nice last second surprise.

Maybe I'm overthinking this, and I can only speak for myself as a fan. Had I known a day or two prior that he was questionable, I would've been pissed off for a few hours then gotten over it before the game started. Instead, I was just sitting there watching the line drop in real time. Because of the way the news was delivered, I was pissed right from the start.

Anyways... hope Heron is back tomorrow. Just don't like how this was handled.[/quote]

And you wouldn't have had that "here we go again" demotivating feeling if it had been announced Thursday or Friday? If I was a betting man (and I'm not), I think must would and this thread and the "here we go again" feeling would have just happened days before and still carried right into the game.

He got dressed and tried it prior to the "official" warm-ups and it was no good. Then the news came out so it was basically a game time decision. Let's move on.[/quote]

Yes I would've had that same feeling, but a day before rather than minutes before. Most humans respond the same way after hearing bad news. Their first response is denial/anger/defeat and then gradually they get over it and accept it with a sense of optimism for the future. It was a gut punch literally minutes before the game started, and rather than thinking "hey, we're favored by 5 points so we should still win" my thought was "boo, the line keeps dropping". It's all psychology, but a lot of the game is mental and all humans take time to get over news. Of course, had we won none of this would matter but we didn't.

Again, just my personal thought but I think it was a bad decision by the staff. I hope in the future they learn from it, because obviously it didn't help anybody on our side and arguably gave Providence some last minute momentum.[/quote]

On the scale of bad news, this doesn’t even register on the meter, I mean yes your number two scorer is not playing today is disappointing but...

Lines mean nothing unless you’re betting. As far as knowing earlier, knowing what exactly? That he is battling tendinitis or a bruised knee and he is day to day? Would that had stopped you from going to the game or watching it? Would it make you cheer or support the team differently? Would it have made your preparation for the game differently?

What is it the staff and the medical team supposed to have learned exactly?[/quote]

Not bad news? We looked awful and lost by 14. The only news worse would've been Ponds being out or an extended injury. Obviously I am talking about bad news in relation to the game, not actual bad news outside of sports.

Lines do mean something... they are our odds on winning and they kept going down. I mean that more in a figurative momentum shifting way. It was a gut punch last second momentum killer for us and helper for Providence.

I still would have went no matter what, but others may not have knowing how we've played without our full team. It just felt like a scummy move by the staff, almost as if they wanted the maximum attendance so they hid this from everyone until minutes before the game. Perhaps their intention was to throw Providence off last minute, but that didn't work and if anything it gave them momentum at the worst time possible.

Anyways, think whatever you want but the results speak for themselves. I'm not saying hiding his injury until the last second was definitely why we lost, but at best it certainly didn't help.[/quote]

No it wasn’t that bad. It could have been so much worst (ACL, MCL, meniscus) and a whole slew of others.

And if they announced that he was hurt (if it happened days before) and it as a game time decision, then how many say “I’m not going because he might not play?” Do they then get mad if he does and say they were mislead?

This had nothing to do with attendance. Ponds is the name on this team, not Heron.

We lost not because we announced that Heron wasn’t playing before the game, we lost because we were out coached and out worked and Heron being a game time scratch had nothing to do with either.

Him not being their didn’t give them momentum. They didn’t come out all hyped and blow us out from the jump because he wasn’t their. They looked just as bad as we did offensively.
 
Non sports related?! Jesus, the plot thickens even more! I'm at the end of my rope here though, hope he's ok and plays well, we need him badly.
 
Fifty plus years ago as an undergrad at NYU I watched professional gamblers position themselves at nearby tables as a group of us including starters on NYU's ranked D1 team had lunch together at our usual table. If the late Happy Hairston sneezed or had a fight with a girl friend, these characters moved money around, if not the betting line itself. The rumor was that the cafeteria cashier was a major bookie and if the gambling pros got too close he would call campus security to escort them out of the student center.
 
[quote="Marillac" post=322032][quote="Adam" post=322015][quote="Marillac" post=322012][quote="Andrew" post=322010]I don’t think St. John’s hid the injury to increase crowd size. I do know the Mets will often wait to the last minute to make an announcement if for example have to replace Syndegaard with Chris Flexen and it’s a home game.[/quote]

They obviously didn’t hide the news to increase attendance. That’s bizarre even for our fans.

If anything they waited until the last minute to see if he could go or they didn’t want to give Providence and edge preparing.

This is amateur athletics. The only reason most pro teams release injury reports is because it is mandatory.

Our fans think they are owed something for just buying a ticket.[/quote]

Yes, their intention probably was due to game preparation, however that doesn't work in college basketball especially when you're talking about a leading scorer for the team. There was literally no good for us losing Heron and for Providence it was a massive boost. It's not like we have a talented Heron replacement they could've prepped for. We just lost one player on an extremely thin team. That's it.

Again, basketball is a game of momentum. This type of last second good news could be enough to boost Providence and wake them up. They killed us on the boards, which is largely an effort stat. The crowd wasn't in it most the game. Is that because they found out last second Heron was out? For some, yes. It's a momentum killer no matter how you look at it, so all I'm saying is it's better to not make it a surprise.

Do you genuinely think this is a strategy that should be repeated in the future? If so, we'll agree to disagree.[/quote]

I don’t understand your post. Preparing for the team you are actually facing is always better. Belichick is the greatest coach of all time and he is always in trouble for manipulating injury reports and being purposefully nontransparent.

Likely 1/3 of Providence’s overall game prep revolved around Heron. We just won’t win any games without Ponds or Heron.[/quote]

They'd prepare for Heron no matter what, because he'd be questionable. Meaning he may or may not play. But you don't drop a last second bomb on everyone that gives the opposing team juice like that. This is a momentum sport and momentum is strongest directly after an event takes place. It's the type of thing that can wake up a sleepy team for a noon contest. Mullin recently said he doesn't know how to motivate his team... well this is how you motivate the other team.

Again, if you don't think this strategy fueled momentum in favor of Providence we'll agree to disagree. It sounds like there may be a reason why they hid it (Paultzman's post), so in the future I don't expect this type of strategy for a normal injury. My concern is I don't want to see this repeated in the future.
 
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[quote="SJU85" post=322047][quote="Adam" post=322008][quote="SJU85" post=322002][quote="Adam" post=321952][quote="SJU85" post=321949][quote="Adam" post=321943]Not sure if this has been brought up, but I was annoyed even before the game started that Heron's injury wasn't disclosed prior. The reason being is it gave us all the "here we go again" demotivating feeling right as we were getting into our seats. It also probably energized Providence... talk about a nice last second surprise.

Maybe I'm overthinking this, and I can only speak for myself as a fan. Had I known a day or two prior that he was questionable, I would've been pissed off for a few hours then gotten over it before the game started. Instead, I was just sitting there watching the line drop in real time. Because of the way the news was delivered, I was pissed right from the start.

Anyways... hope Heron is back tomorrow. Just don't like how this was handled.[/quote]

And you wouldn't have had that "here we go again" demotivating feeling if it had been announced Thursday or Friday? If I was a betting man (and I'm not), I think must would and this thread and the "here we go again" feeling would have just happened days before and still carried right into the game.

He got dressed and tried it prior to the "official" warm-ups and it was no good. Then the news came out so it was basically a game time decision. Let's move on.[/quote]

Yes I would've had that same feeling, but a day before rather than minutes before. Most humans respond the same way after hearing bad news. Their first response is denial/anger/defeat and then gradually they get over it and accept it with a sense of optimism for the future. It was a gut punch literally minutes before the game started, and rather than thinking "hey, we're favored by 5 points so we should still win" my thought was "boo, the line keeps dropping". It's all psychology, but a lot of the game is mental and all humans take time to get over news. Of course, had we won none of this would matter but we didn't.

Again, just my personal thought but I think it was a bad decision by the staff. I hope in the future they learn from it, because obviously it didn't help anybody on our side and arguably gave Providence some last minute momentum.[/quote]

On the scale of bad news, this doesn’t even register on the meter, I mean yes your number two scorer is not playing today is disappointing but...

Lines mean nothing unless you’re betting. As far as knowing earlier, knowing what exactly? That he is battling tendinitis or a bruised knee and he is day to day? Would that had stopped you from going to the game or watching it? Would it make you cheer or support the team differently? Would it have made your preparation for the game differently?

What is it the staff and the medical team supposed to have learned exactly?[/quote]

Not bad news? We looked awful and lost by 14. The only news worse would've been Ponds being out or an extended injury. Obviously I am talking about bad news in relation to the game, not actual bad news outside of sports.

Lines do mean something... they are our odds on winning and they kept going down. I mean that more in a figurative momentum shifting way. It was a gut punch last second momentum killer for us and helper for Providence.

I still would have went no matter what, but others may not have knowing how we've played without our full team. It just felt like a scummy move by the staff, almost as if they wanted the maximum attendance so they hid this from everyone until minutes before the game. Perhaps their intention was to throw Providence off last minute, but that didn't work and if anything it gave them momentum at the worst time possible.

Anyways, think whatever you want but the results speak for themselves. I'm not saying hiding his injury until the last second was definitely why we lost, but at best it certainly didn't help.[/quote]

No it wasn’t that bad. It could have been so much worst (ACL, MCL, meniscus) and a whole slew of others.

And if they announced that he was hurt (if it happened days before) and it as a game time decision, then how many say “I’m not going because he might not play?” Do they then get mad if he does and say they were mislead?

This had nothing to do with attendance. Ponds is the name on this team, not Heron.

We lost not because we announced that Heron wasn’t playing before the game, we lost because we were out coached and out worked and Heron being a game time scratch had nothing to do with either.

Him not being their didn’t give them momentum. They didn’t come out all hyped and blow us out from the jump because he wasn’t their. They looked just as bad as we did offensively.[/quote]

In terms of the game itself (and not the overall season), it was the second worst thing possible. Worst thing would've been Ponds being out. In the posts that followed I said attendance likely wasn't the reason why, rather strategy (a strategy I disagreed with). Further, Paultzman's post hinted that there may be another reason why it wasn't disclosed.

We agree in terms of most the other stuff though, there were a lot of reasons why we lost. I am not pinning this loss solely on the announcement time. I'm just saying I think the announcement time was more likely to work in Providence's favor, especially for a sleepy noon game. They sucked on offense, but they did grab a lot more boards than us, and rebounding is in part an effort stat.

Maybe it sounds like I am being petty, but I was legit pissed off walking into the building and I know others felt the same way. Would've been nice to hear in advance he was questionable.

Anyways not much more for me to say on this, it's such a rarity and there may be a reason it wasn't disclosed. If it was non sports related and embarrassing then whatever. On to Butler... hopefully with the full team.
 
[quote="L J S A" post=322474]I guess he's healthy.[/quote]

He is one more knee knock away from being on the All American team. Played his best game in awhile.
 
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[quote="Ray Morgan" post=322478][quote="L J S A" post=322474]I guess he's healthy.[/quote]

He is one more knee knock away from being on the All American team. Played his best game in awhile.[/quote]

Actually, I think, since the second half of the first Creighton game, he's done a good job, for the most part. Nothing like tonight, but his game has been improving for awhile now.
 
[quote="Delaware" post=322491]SJU doctors and trainers are miracle workers. This guy couldn't play the last game? Wow.[/quote]

Whatever they did, please do more of it. Heron was a man last night playing a kids game. He received a lot of early season criticism (myself included) but has really turned it on and we’re all seeing what he can do now. Love that he dunks everything near the rim, don’t remember the last time we had a guard that could do that.

Mustapha might have saved the season last night.
 
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His absence proved his importance to the team. We suck without him or Ponds. Everyone loves Figgy, but he’s just not ready to get those consistent shots yet and he can’t create as well has Heron at this point.

Heron is a savage before the D can get fully set. That was never clearer than last night. He needs more aggressive takes in secondary transition, more touches in the high and low post, and less half-court drives.
 
[quote="Marillac" post=322531]His absence proved his importance to the team. We suck without him or Ponds. Everyone loves Figgy, but he’s just not ready to get those consistent shots yet and he can’t create as well has Heron at this point.

Heron is a savage before the D can get fully set. That was never clearer than last night. He needs more aggressive takes in secondary transition, more touches in the high and low post, and less half-court drives.[/quote]

The issue with Heron is that he can only drive left. When the defense forces him to his right, he struggles. I don’t know why Butler let him constantly drive to his left into the lane.
 
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