Fire Lavin!

Coach Lavin is going nowhere for awhile unless he wants to depart, which seems unlikely. It ought to be apparent to anyone who has followed the program over the years that St John's does not demand or expect that the basketball program compete at the level of a consistent top-20 program (in Big East terms this would include Georgetown and Villanova, for example). St. John's is satisfied to have a program that is free from NCAA investigation, sells 6,000 tickets per game, is in consideration for the NCAA tournament every few years, and makes the NIT when it doesn't make the NCAAs.

Coach Lavin will certainly deliver that, and in fact i think he will do somewhat better than that, which will make the administration and some of the fan base very happy. A large part of our fan base only really cares about wins and losses, and most of them are realistic enough to bear in mind that we have never been a truly top-tier program (this is why our legend player/team is a loss in the Final Four and not a victory in the championship game).

On the other hand, those who are longtime fans of college basketball will probably never be happy with Coach Lavin, unless he hires an experienced tactician and delegates substantially. His current approach of playing what is essentially NBA basketball (isolation, pick and roll, pick and pop) grates on the nerves of fans who want to see ball movement, player movement, open shots, and designed plays. And even his fans seem to agree that he lacks the feel for game coaching, which shows up in substitutions, time-outs, etc.

In the end, coaching bad basketball that wins 20 games is probably not a fire-able offense, and certainly not in the St John's world.

The good news is that there has been some good basketball played in the Big East Tournament this year, and there will be more to come in the NCAA Tournament.

The other good news is that with Xavier's win the league is up to 3 bids, and if Providence survives Seton Hall tomorrow the league should get 4. That should match the A-10, and isn't bad for a year in which so much of the league was mediocre.

It's time to put this conversation behind us, find some well-coached and well-played games to watch, and enjoy the sport.

Plenty of well-coached and well-played games going on in NYC this weekend in the same place that they were going on last weekend.....up at Fordham, and between Catholic High School teams. Being able to teach kids fundamentally sound basketball is not a lost art.
 
Plenty of well-coached and well-played games going on in NYC this weekend in the same place that they were going on last weekend.....up at Fordham, and between Catholic High School teams. Being able to teach kids fundamentally sound basketball is not a lost art.

I always thought Mo Hicks was a very good coach. Too bad we could never find a way to get him on staff. Uh, wait. . .
 
Plenty of well-coached and well-played games going on in NYC this weekend in the same place that they were going on last weekend.....up at Fordham, and between Catholic High School teams. Being able to teach kids fundamentally sound basketball is not a lost art.

I always thought Mo Hicks was a very good coach. Too bad we could never find a way to get him on staff. Uh, wait. . .

Didn't mean to shun the PSAL coaches. Ron Naclerio, etc. Just watch a lot of Catholic School ball because of my connections to the Catholic schools.
 
Reviving the thread topic about a firing is just an exercise in futility. It's not going to happen, and even the mot ardent proponent of firing should be aware of that. But post away if it makes you feel better. That;s not to goad the fire Lavin crowd - although in some nefarious way, a let's grab the pitchfork and torches mentality seems the fuel the tone here. There's almost a blood lust in the tone of "Fire Lavin" intonations. It comes from a bad place within. There's almost a revelry about it, a joy in the failure that is insidiously attached to the sincere letdown of losing a shot at the bid. it's also self serving, as in, "We know better, and firing the coach is better."

For the most part it went away during the 10 game run that produced 8 wins in 9 conference games. Some of you even justified the earlier calls for firing by "blaming" the improvement on Whitesell's more active role on the sidelines. Others were largely silent during the winning streak, only to return now.

Don't mistake the opinion of "keep Lavin" as a lack of passion, or misplaced loyalty. In big games, the only reason I'm in my seat and not standing through the games' critical moments is because I sit down when I realize I'm probably blocking the view of fans behind me who chose to actually sit in their seats. I took an afternoon off from work despite some pretty important issues on my desk.

Losing is never fun. I get it. UCLA has spent the past 39 years firing coaches simply because they couldn't approach the success of John Wooden. Joe B. Hall followed Adolph Rupp at Kentucky, and despite finishing ranked in 10 of 13 seasons and winning one NCAA title, he was criticized throughout his tenure before being released. This program has spent the last 22 seasons trying to repeat the consistent winning that Coach Carnesecca had. Well, now we say that. Back then, many of us hoped his replacement could finally elevate the program to compete with a two mentioned in this paragraph. In 2012 Kentucky unveiled a statue hailing Joe B. Hall. We named our court after Lou C.

We had the previous two BE ROY's and nearly a third this season. Our other guard is a first team Big East player. The center we are questioning in another thread right now has game altering shot blocking skills. Glass half full? Probably. But before you fill the glass, it has to reach the half full mark.

I don't know if any of the "Fire Lavin" crowd have ever been fired, at least fired from a job that was supporting your family. I'm not talking about getting fired from CVS in your teens or 20s - I mean getting fired when your salary is getting eaten up by diapers, rent or mortgage, and car lease payments. I'm not saying that people that coach for a profession shouldn't be subject to firing, but also that if you considered that you may or even should be fired tomorrow morning because someone above you thought you weren't smart enough, hard working enough, or simply competent enough, you wouldn't be so casual in your assertions.

For most of us, sports is an escape - a chance for a few hours a week to not think about tuition payments or dentist bills, and to make our favorite team's winning or losing the most important thing in the world. However, when it starts to really become the most important thing in the world, it's time to work harder on other parts of our lives.

Makes you wonder what guys would be feeling had Sampson made that layup, and we pulled out this game. Probably an out-of-kilter elation.

Coaching St. John's is a two million dollar a year honor. Lavin has already earned eight million dollars the last four years doing this. This is more than I will possibly make in forty years and I feel fortunate to have had some success in life. If I was making two million dollars a year, to coach basketball, I would feel extremely fortunate and would expect to be scrutinized very closely. You can't compare Lavin's situation to the average individual. I can understand saying don't blame the players which we are all guilty of at times. They are not getting paid and have a tremendous amount of pressure put on them. I admire Lavin for fighting through his illness and still doing an ok job by St. John's standards, however I am disappointed in the results this year. I do not have the answer as to whether we should replace him or extend him, but I won't feel sorry for him either way. I hope he has saved some of the nearly six million after taxes that he will earn over the life of this first contract, in case he needs to find a job with a pay scale more realistic of the average worker.

Well said. Yeah, there is no way I could ever feel sorry for Lavin. He has been in the right spot at the right time several times and has received way more than he contributed to the game of basketball overall. His skills are average at best but for the foreseeable future we are apparently stuck with him as an overpaid BS artist. Right now we are constantly reminded that he is a great recruiter but there are no players on the way to support that contention. I plan to watch what happens in the coming months to help me decide whether to continue this nonsense past this putrid season. Lavin's mistakes and shortcomings have been well chronicled here and he will be very lucky to keep the gig based on his performance. Luck is Steve's middle name though and SJU is the type of classically inept program needed to continue the folly ad infinitum. Let's see what the great recruiter comes up with to avoid the upcoming roster disaster. This will be similar to what he faced coming in but he's been in an ideal position to do something about it so who will be blamed for these problems then? My guess is that he'll fly the coop when it hits the fan. I hope Monasch keeps this in mind as he works out a really stupid contract extension. Of course I'll be happy to eat my frustrated words as the blue chippers start rolling in but I'm not going to hold my breath.
 
Bobre, you have impeccable timing. I am sure you did not purposely wait for a loss like this to post again.
 
:oops: Yesterday's SNY Daily News and Loud Mouths show both discussed St.John's elimination as well as Lavin's lackluster performance. Really sounded as if they got their information from our elite Redmen.com. They talked about our team being the most talented in the B.E., however underachieving all season. Didn't think much of Lavin as a coach, in fact claimed he was more of a salesman and a recruiter then a X & O tactician. "How successful a coach has he been overall during his career", one commented. They felt his analyst job with ESPN established his popularity.
 
:oops: Yesterday's SNY Daily News and Loud Mouths show both discussed St.John's elimination as well as Lavin's lackluster performance. Really sounded as if they got their information from our elite Redmen.com. They talked about our team being the most talented in the B.E., however underachieving all season. Didn't think much of Lavin as a coach, in fact claimed he was more of a salesman and a recruiter then a X & O tactician. "How successful a coach has he been overall during his career", one commented. They felt his analyst job with ESPN established his popularity.

I posted on this thread but i don`t see my post and now i`m pissed. So here`s a post short and right to the point.

No NCAA again, if no recruit in April then that 1 in two years. That means youngest team once again in 15.
If Lavin gets shutout this year, then i`ll be with this thread...FIRE LAVIN.

We`ll see in about a month.
 
Reviving the thread topic about a firing is just an exercise in futility. It's not going to happen, and even the mot ardent proponent of firing should be aware of that. But post away if it makes you feel better. That;s not to goad the fire Lavin crowd - although in some nefarious way, a let's grab the pitchfork and torches mentality seems the fuel the tone here. There's almost a blood lust in the tone of "Fire Lavin" intonations. It comes from a bad place within. There's almost a revelry about it, a joy in the failure that is insidiously attached to the sincere letdown of losing a shot at the bid. it's also self serving, as in, "We know better, and firing the coach is better."

For the most part it went away during the 10 game run that produced 8 wins in 9 conference games. Some of you even justified the earlier calls for firing by "blaming" the improvement on Whitesell's more active role on the sidelines. Others were largely silent during the winning streak, only to return now.

Don't mistake the opinion of "keep Lavin" as a lack of passion, or misplaced loyalty. In big games, the only reason I'm in my seat and not standing through the games' critical moments is because I sit down when I realize I'm probably blocking the view of fans behind me who chose to actually sit in their seats. I took an afternoon off from work despite some pretty important issues on my desk.

Losing is never fun. I get it. UCLA has spent the past 39 years firing coaches simply because they couldn't approach the success of John Wooden. Joe B. Hall followed Adolph Rupp at Kentucky, and despite finishing ranked in 10 of 13 seasons and winning one NCAA title, he was criticized throughout his tenure before being released. This program has spent the last 22 seasons trying to repeat the consistent winning that Coach Carnesecca had. Well, now we say that. Back then, many of us hoped his replacement could finally elevate the program to compete with a two mentioned in this paragraph. In 2012 Kentucky unveiled a statue hailing Joe B. Hall. We named our court after Lou C.

We had the previous two BE ROY's and nearly a third this season. Our other guard is a first team Big East player. The center we are questioning in another thread right now has game altering shot blocking skills. Glass half full? Probably. But before you fill the glass, it has to reach the half full mark.

I don't know if any of the "Fire Lavin" crowd have ever been fired, at least fired from a job that was supporting your family. I'm not talking about getting fired from CVS in your teens or 20s - I mean getting fired when your salary is getting eaten up by diapers, rent or mortgage, and car lease payments. I'm not saying that people that coach for a profession shouldn't be subject to firing, but also that if you considered that you may or even should be fired tomorrow morning because someone above you thought you weren't smart enough, hard working enough, or simply competent enough, you wouldn't be so casual in your assertions.

For most of us, sports is an escape - a chance for a few hours a week to not think about tuition payments or dentist bills, and to make our favorite team's winning or losing the most important thing in the world. However, when it starts to really become the most important thing in the world, it's time to work harder on other parts of our lives.

Makes you wonder what guys would be feeling had Sampson made that layup, and we pulled out this game. Probably an out-of-kilter elation.

The best post on this topic. Ever.

Thank you. I wrote it, and got crapped on, and you agreed and get three thank yous! :The messenger always gets shot.
 
Say what you want about Lavin, but we won 20 games this year. Not giving him a pass for failing to make the NCAA tournament but its not like we were 11-19. This was the first season we failed to meet expectations IMO. I dont believe thats a fireable offense & glad he's getting an extension even if the 6 years might be a bit much. I know he has obvious deficiencies, didn't do a great job this year and needs to be better prepared going into next year but overall I think he's done a solid job throughout his tenure and believe he is the right guy. Only time will tell though
 
Say what you want about Lavin, but we won 20 games this year. Not giving him a pass for failing to make the NCAA tournament but its not like we were 11-19. This was the first season we failed to meet expectations IMO. I dont believe thats a fireable offense & glad he's getting an extension even if the 6 years might be a bit much. I know he has obvious deficiencies, didn't do a great job this year and needs to be better prepared going into next year but overall I think he's done a solid job throughout his tenure and believe he is the right guy. Only time will tell though

If no recruits come in this year, and we`re very young in 15, then we`ll be garbage then.

Youngest team in his 2nd year as coach,ok.
Youngest team in his 6th, is that acceptable?

Would we have to go easy on lavin in his 6th year, because they would be very young?
 
:oops: Yesterday's SNY Daily News and Loud Mouths show both discussed St.John's elimination as well as Lavin's lackluster performance. Really sounded as if they got their information from our elite Redmen.com. They talked about our team being the most talented in the B.E., however underachieving all season. Didn't think much of Lavin as a coach, in fact claimed he was more of a salesman and a recruiter then a X & O tactician. "How successful a coach has he been overall during his career", one commented. They felt his analyst job with ESPN established his popularity.

One week ago these two know-nothing dweebs on "Loudmouths" (loudmouths is right; all hot air, no substance) were showering Lavin with compliments, calling him a brilliant coach, a great coach, and the like. The only reason they're on the air is that SNY needs to fill airtime on a very, very tight budget.
 
:oops: Yesterday's SNY Daily News and Loud Mouths show both discussed St.John's elimination as well as Lavin's lackluster performance. Really sounded as if they got their information from our elite Redmen.com. They talked about our team being the most talented in the B.E., however underachieving all season. Didn't think much of Lavin as a coach, in fact claimed he was more of a salesman and a recruiter then a X & O tactician. "How successful a coach has he been overall during his career", one commented. They felt his analyst job with ESPN established his popularity.

The most talented kid on the floor yesterday was the sax player in the Providence band. He played better than anyone else, too. :)
 
Say what you want about Lavin, but we won 20 games this year. Not giving him a pass for failing to make the NCAA tournament but its not like we were 11-19. This was the first season we failed to meet expectations IMO. I dont believe thats a fireable offense & glad he's getting an extension even if the 6 years might be a bit much. I know he has obvious deficiencies, didn't do a great job this year and needs to be better prepared going into next year but overall I think he's done a solid job throughout his tenure and believe he is the right guy. Only time will tell though

If no recruits come in this year, and we`re very young in 15, then we`ll be garbage then.

Youngest team in his 2nd year as coach,ok.
Youngest team in his 6th, is that acceptable?

Would we have to go easy on lavin in his 6th year, because they would be very young?

There is zero chance he doesn't bring anyone in this year
 
:oops: Yesterday's SNY Daily News and Loud Mouths show both discussed St.John's elimination as well as Lavin's lackluster performance. Really sounded as if they got their information from our elite Redmen.com. They talked about our team being the most talented in the B.E., however underachieving all season. Didn't think much of Lavin as a coach, in fact claimed he was more of a salesman and a recruiter then a X & O tactician. "How successful a coach has he been overall during his career", one commented. They felt his analyst job with ESPN established his popularity.

The most talented kid on the floor yesterday was the sax player in the Providence band. He played better than anyone else, too. :)

Don't know if you're goofing around, Beast, but you're right. I was sitting not far behind the PC bench and had a great view of the pep band. As a jazz fan (Dexter Gordon, Lester Young, etc.), I looked over when I heard some nice sounds coming from their sax player, a young guy in the first row who was playing solo and giving it his all. The kid can play!
 
All just my opinion, except for the last item (that's a fact)

Buzz Williams.......best coach in the league.
Jay Wright......great job this year and he is consistently good.
Ed Cooley.....MUCH better than Lavin
Kevin Willard......won two BET games with inferior talent, while we folded up like a tent.
John Thompson III........solid coach, not amazing.
Steve Lavin.......worst 2014 recruiting class in the Big East
 
:oops: Yesterday's SNY Daily News and Loud Mouths show both discussed St.John's elimination as well as Lavin's lackluster performance. Really sounded as if they got their information from our elite Redmen.com. They talked about our team being the most talented in the B.E., however underachieving all season. Didn't think much of Lavin as a coach, in fact claimed he was more of a salesman and a recruiter then a X & O tactician. "How successful a coach has he been overall during his career", one commented. They felt his analyst job with ESPN established his popularity.

The most talented kid on the floor yesterday was the sax player in the Providence band. He played better than anyone else, too. :)

Don't know if you're goofing around, Beast, but you're right. I was sitting not far behind the PC bench and had a great view of the pep band. As a jazz fan (Dexter Gordon, Lester Young, etc.), I looked over when I heard some nice sounds coming from their sax player, a young guy in the first row who was playing solo and giving it his all. The kid can play!

Wasn't kidding about that kid, or the band. I think it may have been the first pep band we've seen this year with a sax player, and that kid stood out for sure.

I visited the school last year, and was impressed with the spirit and tone of the school.
Academically its one of the more competitive school in the NE. I'm guessing that the pecking order is Georgetown, BC, and Nova - all very tough schools to get into, then maybe Holy Cross, then Providence and Fordham. Fordham may be a better school academically, and is a university, but I think its tougher to get into Providence College since they have less freshman seats.
 
Two points in Lavin's favor:
The number of Div 1 coaches who would have suspended Harrison last year for the remainder of the season when a bid was still a possibility you could count on one hand. Some may have sat him for a game but that would have been it.
There have been many posts re college basketball's fight for publicity in the NY area but the only coach out there selling the product is Lavin. He has been all over the airwaves pushing college BB. Has anybody seen or heard Pecora in his 4 yrs at Fordham or Willard or Cluess? Is there a Big East commissioner?
 
Its hopeless to talk sense into people.

Lavin is the personality this program needs to handle the NYC market and has done a great job at bringing respect to this program and finally having high ranked recruits interested in the program. Everyone is expecting this program to be Kentucky, or Syracuse or 1985 Final Four SJU in a matter of 5 year? are you delusional? we have been irrelevant in 14 years. Money is finally starting to come into the program, facilities are being upgraded and Lavin is a big part of everything coming together. Whitesell is here for X's and O's but sometimes you cant help it if there is a bad ball bounce or bad call at the end of the game. This year we had that unfortunate instance more than a few times but still made it to 20 wins.

The improvement has been steady year over year and that is something we can look forward to.

Can we please delete this thread?
 
Its hopeless to talk sense into people.

Lavin is the personality this program needs to handle the NYC market and has done a great job at bringing respect to this program and finally having high ranked recruits interested in the program. Everyone is expecting this program to be Kentucky, or Syracuse or 1985 Final Four SJU in a matter of 5 year? are you delusional? we have been irrelevant in 14 years. Money is finally starting to come into the program, facilities are being upgraded and Lavin is a big part of everything coming together. Whitesell is here for X's and O's but sometimes you cant help it if there is a bad ball bounce or bad call at the end of the game. This year we had that unfortunate instance more than a few times but still made it to 20 wins.

The improvement has been steady year over year and that is something we can look forward to.

Can we please delete this thread?


Whose respect has he brought to the program? The NCAA Tourney selection committee? I don't think so. The Fans? Fan attendance is dropping.

As for bringing in high-rated recruits, the only group to make it to the Tourney in the Lavin era were Norm's kids.
 
Its hopeless to talk sense into people.

Whitesell is here for X's and O's but sometimes you cant help it if there is a bad ball bounce or bad call at the end of the game.

Seriously? Are you expressing satisfaction in the Xs and Os, and claiming bad bounces and referees are the issue? Uhg......I just can't. Would you like a refill on your Kool Aid?
 
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