Fire Lavin!

If anyone thinks this season was a success you have low standards.
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I, seriously doubt anyone thought this season was a success. Just some folks are handling the lack of success better than others.
 
Coach Lavin is going nowhere for awhile unless he wants to depart, which seems unlikely. It ought to be apparent to anyone who has followed the program over the years that St John's does not demand or expect that the basketball program compete at the level of a consistent top-20 program (in Big East terms this would include Georgetown and Villanova, for example). St. John's is satisfied to have a program that is free from NCAA investigation, sells 6,000 tickets per game, is in consideration for the NCAA tournament every few years, and makes the NIT when it doesn't make the NCAAs.

Coach Lavin will certainly deliver that, and in fact i think he will do somewhat better than that, which will make the administration and some of the fan base very happy. A large part of our fan base only really cares about wins and losses, and most of them are realistic enough to bear in mind that we have never been a truly top-tier program (this is why our legend player/team is a loss in the Final Four and not a victory in the championship game).

On the other hand, those who are longtime fans of college basketball will probably never be happy with Coach Lavin, unless he hires an experienced tactician and delegates substantially. His current approach of playing what is essentially NBA basketball (isolation, pick and roll, pick and pop) grates on the nerves of fans who want to see ball movement, player movement, open shots, and designed plays. And even his fans seem to agree that he lacks the feel for game coaching, which shows up in substitutions, time-outs, etc.

In the end, coaching bad basketball that wins 20 games is probably not a fire-able offense, and certainly not in the St John's world.

The good news is that there has been some good basketball played in the Big East Tournament this year, and there will be more to come in the NCAA Tournament.

The other good news is that with Xavier's win the league is up to 3 bids, and if Providence survives Seton Hall tomorrow the league should get 4. That should match the A-10, and isn't bad for a year in which so much of the league was mediocre.

It's time to put this conversation behind us, find some well-coached and well-played games to watch, and enjoy the sport.
 
Reviving the thread topic about a firing is just an exercise in futility. It's not going to happen, and even the mot ardent proponent of firing should be aware of that. But post away if it makes you feel better. That;s not to goad the fire Lavin crowd - although in some nefarious way, a let's grab the pitchfork and torches mentality seems the fuel the tone here. There's almost a blood lust in the tone of "Fire Lavin" intonations. It comes from a bad place within. There's almost a revelry about it, a joy in the failure that is insidiously attached to the sincere letdown of losing a shot at the bid. it's also self serving, as in, "We know better, and firing the coach is better."

For the most part it went away during the 10 game run that produced 8 wins in 9 conference games. Some of you even justified the earlier calls for firing by "blaming" the improvement on Whitesell's more active role on the sidelines. Others were largely silent during the winning streak, only to return now.

Don't mistake the opinion of "keep Lavin" as a lack of passion, or misplaced loyalty. In big games, the only reason I'm in my seat and not standing through the games' critical moments is because I sit down when I realize I'm probably blocking the view of fans behind me who chose to actually sit in their seats. I took an afternoon off from work despite some pretty important issues on my desk.

Losing is never fun. I get it. UCLA has spent the past 39 years firing coaches simply because they couldn't approach the success of John Wooden. Joe B. Hall followed Adolph Rupp at Kentucky, and despite finishing ranked in 10 of 13 seasons and winning one NCAA title, he was criticized throughout his tenure before being released. This program has spent the last 22 seasons trying to repeat the consistent winning that Coach Carnesecca had. Well, now we say that. Back then, many of us hoped his replacement could finally elevate the program to compete with a two mentioned in this paragraph. In 2012 Kentucky unveiled a statue hailing Joe B. Hall. We named our court after Lou C.

We had the previous two BE ROY's and nearly a third this season. Our other guard is a first team Big East player. The center we are questioning in another thread right now has game altering shot blocking skills. Glass half full? Probably. But before you fill the glass, it has to reach the half full mark.

I don't know if any of the "Fire Lavin" crowd have ever been fired, at least fired from a job that was supporting your family. I'm not talking about getting fired from CVS in your teens or 20s - I mean getting fired when your salary is getting eaten up by diapers, rent or mortgage, and car lease payments. I'm not saying that people that coach for a profession shouldn't be subject to firing, but also that if you considered that you may or even should be fired tomorrow morning because someone above you thought you weren't smart enough, hard working enough, or simply competent enough, you wouldn't be so casual in your assertions.

For most of us, sports is an escape - a chance for a few hours a week to not think about tuition payments or dentist bills, and to make our favorite team's winning or losing the most important thing in the world. However, when it starts to really become the most important thing in the world, it's time to work harder on other parts of our lives.

Makes you wonder what guys would be feeling had Sampson made that layup, and we pulled out this game. Probably an out-of-kilter elation.
 
Reviving the thread topic about a firing is just an exercise in futility. It's not going to happen, and even the mot ardent proponent of firing should be aware of that. But post away if it makes you feel better. That;s not to goad the fire Lavin crowd - although in some nefarious way, a let's grab the pitchfork and torches mentality seems the fuel the tone here. There's almost a blood lust in the tone of "Fire Lavin" intonations. It comes from a bad place within. There's almost a revelry about it, a joy in the failure that is insidiously attached to the sincere letdown of losing a shot at the bid. it's also self serving, as in, "We know better, and firing the coach is better."

For the most part it went away during the 10 game run that produced 8 wins in 9 conference games. Some of you even justified the earlier calls for firing by "blaming" the improvement on Whitesell's more active role on the sidelines. Others were largely silent during the winning streak, only to return now.

Don't mistake the opinion of "keep Lavin" as a lack of passion, or misplaced loyalty. In big games, the only reason I'm in my seat and not standing through the games' critical moments is because I sit down when I realize I'm probably blocking the view of fans behind me who chose to actually sit in their seats. I took an afternoon off from work despite some pretty important issues on my desk.

Losing is never fun. I get it. UCLA has spent the past 39 years firing coaches simply because they couldn't approach the success of John Wooden. Joe B. Hall followed Adolph Rupp at Kentucky, and despite finishing ranked in 10 of 13 seasons and winning one NCAA title, he was criticized throughout his tenure before being released. This program has spent the last 22 seasons trying to repeat the consistent winning that Coach Carnesecca had. Well, now we say that. Back then, many of us hoped his replacement could finally elevate the program to compete with a two mentioned in this paragraph. In 2012 Kentucky unveiled a statue hailing Joe B. Hall. We named our court after Lou C.

We had the previous two BE ROY's and nearly a third this season. Our other guard is a first team Big East player. The center we are questioning in another thread right now has game altering shot blocking skills. Glass half full? Probably. But before you fill the glass, it has to reach the half full mark.

I don't know if any of the "Fire Lavin" crowd have ever been fired, at least fired from a job that was supporting your family. I'm not talking about getting fired from CVS in your teens or 20s - I mean getting fired when your salary is getting eaten up by diapers, rent or mortgage, and car lease payments. I'm not saying that people that coach for a profession shouldn't be subject to firing, but also that if you considered that you may or even should be fired tomorrow morning because someone above you thought you weren't smart enough, hard working enough, or simply competent enough, you wouldn't be so casual in your assertions.

For most of us, sports is an escape - a chance for a few hours a week to not think about tuition payments or dentist bills, and to make our favorite team's winning or losing the most important thing in the world. However, when it starts to really become the most important thing in the world, it's time to work harder on other parts of our lives.

Makes you wonder what guys would be feeling had Sampson made that layup, and we pulled out this game. Probably an out-of-kilter elation.
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Coaching St. John's is a two million dollar a year honor. Lavin has already earned eight million dollars the last four years doing this. This is more than I will possibly make in forty years and I feel fortunate to have had some success in life. If I was making two million dollars a year, to coach basketball, I would feel extremely fortunate and would expect to be scrutinized very closely. You can't compare Lavin's situation to the average individual. I can understand saying don't blame the players which we are all guilty of at times. They are not getting paid and have a tremendous amount of pressure put on them. I admire Lavin for fighting through his illness and still doing an ok job by St. John's standards, however I am disappointed in the results this year. I do not have the answer as to whether we should replace him or extend him, but I won't feel sorry for him either way. I hope he has saved some of the nearly six million after taxes that he will earn over the life of this first contract, in case he needs to find a job with a pay scale more realistic of the average worker.
 
Reviving the thread topic about a firing is just an exercise in futility. It's not going to happen, and even the mot ardent proponent of firing should be aware of that. But post away if it makes you feel better. That;s not to goad the fire Lavin crowd - although in some nefarious way, a let's grab the pitchfork and torches mentality seems the fuel the tone here. There's almost a blood lust in the tone of "Fire Lavin" intonations. It comes from a bad place within. There's almost a revelry about it, a joy in the failure that is insidiously attached to the sincere letdown of losing a shot at the bid. it's also self serving, as in, "We know better, and firing the coach is better."

For the most part it went away during the 10 game run that produced 8 wins in 9 conference games. Some of you even justified the earlier calls for firing by "blaming" the improvement on Whitesell's more active role on the sidelines. Others were largely silent during the winning streak, only to return now.

Furthermore if he were to get fired-and as much as I don't care for his coaching skills I still think its too soon to can him-he'll likely land back in the booth and do just fine financially.

Don't mistake the opinion of "keep Lavin" as a lack of passion, or misplaced loyalty. In big games, the only reason I'm in my seat and not standing through the games' critical moments is because I sit down when I realize I'm probably blocking the view of fans behind me who chose to actually sit in their seats. I took an afternoon off from work despite some pretty important issues on my desk.

Losing is never fun. I get it. UCLA has spent the past 39 years firing coaches simply because they couldn't approach the success of John Wooden. Joe B. Hall followed Adolph Rupp at Kentucky, and despite finishing ranked in 10 of 13 seasons and winning one NCAA title, he was criticized throughout his tenure before being released. This program has spent the last 22 seasons trying to repeat the consistent winning that Coach Carnesecca had. Well, now we say that. Back then, many of us hoped his replacement could finally elevate the program to compete with a two mentioned in this paragraph. In 2012 Kentucky unveiled a statue hailing Joe B. Hall. We named our court after Lou C.

We had the previous two BE ROY's and nearly a third this season. Our other guard is a first team Big East player. The center we are questioning in another thread right now has game altering shot blocking skills. Glass half full? Probably. But before you fill the glass, it has to reach the half full mark.

I don't know if any of the "Fire Lavin" crowd have ever been fired, at least fired from a job that was supporting your family. I'm not talking about getting fired from CVS in your teens or 20s - I mean getting fired when your salary is getting eaten up by diapers, rent or mortgage, and car lease payments. I'm not saying that people that coach for a profession shouldn't be subject to firing, but also that if you considered that you may or even should be fired tomorrow morning because someone above you thought you weren't smart enough, hard working enough, or simply competent enough, you wouldn't be so casual in your assertions.

For most of us, sports is an escape - a chance for a few hours a week to not think about tuition payments or dentist bills, and to make our favorite team's winning or losing the most important thing in the world. However, when it starts to really become the most important thing in the world, it's time to work harder on other parts of our lives.

Makes you wonder what guys would be feeling had Sampson made that layup, and we pulled out this game. Probably an out-of-kilter elation.
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Coaching St. John's is a two million dollar a year honor. Lavin has already earned eight million dollars the last four years doing this. This is more than I will possibly make in forty years and I feel fortunate to have had some success in life. If I was making two million dollars a year, to coach basketball, I would feel extremely fortunate and would expect to be scrutinized very closely. You can't compare Lavin's situation to the average individual. I can understand saying don't blame the players which we are all guilty of at times. They are not getting paid and have a tremendous amount of pressure put on them. I admire Lavin for fighting through his illness and still doing an ok job by St. John's standards, however I am disappointed in the results this year. I do not have the answer as to whether we should replace him or extend him, but I won't feel sorry for him either way. I hope he has saved some of the nearly six million after taxes that he will earn over the life of this first contract, in case he needs to find a job with a pay scale more realistic of the average worker.
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Reviving the thread topic about a firing is just an exercise in futility. It's not going to happen, and even the mot ardent proponent of firing should be aware of that. But post away if it makes you feel better. That;s not to goad the fire Lavin crowd - although in some nefarious way, a let's grab the pitchfork and torches mentality seems the fuel the tone here. There's almost a blood lust in the tone of "Fire Lavin" intonations. It comes from a bad place within. There's almost a revelry about it, a joy in the failure that is insidiously attached to the sincere letdown of losing a shot at the bid. it's also self serving, as in, "We know better, and firing the coach is better."

For the most part it went away during the 10 game run that produced 8 wins in 9 conference games. Some of you even justified the earlier calls for firing by "blaming" the improvement on Whitesell's more active role on the sidelines. Others were largely silent during the winning streak, only to return now.

Don't mistake the opinion of "keep Lavin" as a lack of passion, or misplaced loyalty. In big games, the only reason I'm in my seat and not standing through the games' critical moments is because I sit down when I realize I'm probably blocking the view of fans behind me who chose to actually sit in their seats. I took an afternoon off from work despite some pretty important issues on my desk.

Losing is never fun. I get it. UCLA has spent the past 39 years firing coaches simply because they couldn't approach the success of John Wooden. Joe B. Hall followed Adolph Rupp at Kentucky, and despite finishing ranked in 10 of 13 seasons and winning one NCAA title, he was criticized throughout his tenure before being released. This program has spent the last 22 seasons trying to repeat the consistent winning that Coach Carnesecca had. Well, now we say that. Back then, many of us hoped his replacement could finally elevate the program to compete with a two mentioned in this paragraph. In 2012 Kentucky unveiled a statue hailing Joe B. Hall. We named our court after Lou C.

We had the previous two BE ROY's and nearly a third this season. Our other guard is a first team Big East player. The center we are questioning in another thread right now has game altering shot blocking skills. Glass half full? Probably. But before you fill the glass, it has to reach the half full mark.

I don't know if any of the "Fire Lavin" crowd have ever been fired, at least fired from a job that was supporting your family. I'm not talking about getting fired from CVS in your teens or 20s - I mean getting fired when your salary is getting eaten up by diapers, rent or mortgage, and car lease payments. I'm not saying that people that coach for a profession shouldn't be subject to firing, but also that if you considered that you may or even should be fired tomorrow morning because someone above you thought you weren't smart enough, hard working enough, or simply competent enough, you wouldn't be so casual in your assertions.

For most of us, sports is an escape - a chance for a few hours a week to not think about tuition payments or dentist bills, and to make our favorite team's winning or losing the most important thing in the world. However, when it starts to really become the most important thing in the world, it's time to work harder on other parts of our lives.

Makes you wonder what guys would be feeling had Sampson made that layup, and we pulled out this game. Probably an out-of-kilter elation.
Click to expand...

Coaching St. John's is a two million dollar a year honor. Lavin has already earned eight million dollars the last four years doing this. This is more than I will possibly make in forty years and I feel fortunate to have had some success in life. If I was making two million dollars a year, to coach basketball, I would feel extremely fortunate and would expect to be scrutinized very closely. You can't compare Lavin's situation to the average individual. I can understand saying don't blame the players which we are all guilty of at times. They are not getting paid and have a tremendous amount of pressure put on them. I admire Lavin for fighting through his illness and still doing an ok job by St. John's standards, however I am disappointed in the results this year. I do not have the answer as to whether we should replace him or extend him, but I won't feel sorry for him either way. I hope he has saved some of the nearly six million after taxes that he will earn over the life of this first contract, in case he needs to find a job with a pay scale more realistic of the average worker.
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Stuck that last comment in wrong spot:

Furthermore if he were to get fired-and as much as I don't care for his coaching skills I still think its too soon to can him-he'll likely land back in the booth and do just fine financially.
 
I was not happy with some of the coaching decisions yesterday, as were many. If sitting Obekpa was Lav's choice and not some nonsense by Obekpa, than I have a problem with him sitting while we were getting creamed on the boards. Also we were down .....lets just say plenty...why do we have Hooper? Isnt this why we got him, to shoot us back into games? BUT, in Coach's defense, he brought the team back to 1!!!! That "no call" on D'Angelo's 3 three pointer was epic, and that could of changed the game for us. All in all, Im happy with Lav and stand by him.
 
Reviving the thread topic about a firing is just an exercise in futility. It's not going to happen, and even the mot ardent proponent of firing should be aware of that. But post away if it makes you feel better. That;s not to goad the fire Lavin crowd - although in some nefarious way, a let's grab the pitchfork and torches mentality seems the fuel the tone here. There's almost a blood lust in the tone of "Fire Lavin" intonations. It comes from a bad place within. There's almost a revelry about it, a joy in the failure that is insidiously attached to the sincere letdown of losing a shot at the bid. it's also self serving, as in, "We know better, and firing the coach is better."

For the most part it went away during the 10 game run that produced 8 wins in 9 conference games. Some of you even justified the earlier calls for firing by "blaming" the improvement on Whitesell's more active role on the sidelines. Others were largely silent during the winning streak, only to return now.

Don't mistake the opinion of "keep Lavin" as a lack of passion, or misplaced loyalty. In big games, the only reason I'm in my seat and not standing through the games' critical moments is because I sit down when I realize I'm probably blocking the view of fans behind me who chose to actually sit in their seats. I took an afternoon off from work despite some pretty important issues on my desk.

Losing is never fun. I get it. UCLA has spent the past 39 years firing coaches simply because they couldn't approach the success of John Wooden. Joe B. Hall followed Adolph Rupp at Kentucky, and despite finishing ranked in 10 of 13 seasons and winning one NCAA title, he was criticized throughout his tenure before being released. This program has spent the last 22 seasons trying to repeat the consistent winning that Coach Carnesecca had. Well, now we say that. Back then, many of us hoped his replacement could finally elevate the program to compete with a two mentioned in this paragraph. In 2012 Kentucky unveiled a statue hailing Joe B. Hall. We named our court after Lou C.

We had the previous two BE ROY's and nearly a third this season. Our other guard is a first team Big East player. The center we are questioning in another thread right now has game altering shot blocking skills. Glass half full? Probably. But before you fill the glass, it has to reach the half full mark.

I don't know if any of the "Fire Lavin" crowd have ever been fired, at least fired from a job that was supporting your family. I'm not talking about getting fired from CVS in your teens or 20s - I mean getting fired when your salary is getting eaten up by diapers, rent or mortgage, and car lease payments. I'm not saying that people that coach for a profession shouldn't be subject to firing, but also that if you considered that you may or even should be fired tomorrow morning because someone above you thought you weren't smart enough, hard working enough, or simply competent enough, you wouldn't be so casual in your assertions.

For most of us, sports is an escape - a chance for a few hours a week to not think about tuition payments or dentist bills, and to make our favorite team's winning or losing the most important thing in the world. However, when it starts to really become the most important thing in the world, it's time to work harder on other parts of our lives.

Makes you wonder what guys would be feeling had Sampson made that layup, and we pulled out this game. Probably an out-of-kilter elation.
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It's hard to have a discussion when you don't seem to accept the legitimacy of our opinions Beast. It's one thing to disagree, but you've repeatedly dismissed the opinion that anyone could think it's time to replace the coach.
Why does this inherently have to come from a "bad place"? No offense, but I think that's nonsense. Some people of course go overboard in both their support and defense of coach. But wanting to replace coach lavin doesn't require a blood lust, and it surely doesn't arise from a bad place.


And I think your comments about our lack of empathy are going to fall on deaf ears. You made a pretty poor analogy. I don't dismiss the personal feelings that come along with any firing, because it's always rough. But you brought up paying for diapers and rent; and coach has made more in the last four years than a man making a good salary at $100k will make in his 40 year career.
And most people go to work every day knowing that if they're not smart enough, hard working enough, or competent enough for their job they will get fired.
 
I have to put this into perspective, because I can tell I haven't been rooting for this team as long as many of you, so I wasn't here for all of the past success of the 80's and prior to that. Even attending UConn for a undergrad and masters degree and watching them win constantly, I don't have unrealistic expectations for St. John's. But just since I've been rooting, here was our record since 01-02 season:

01-02: 20-11, made NCAA tournament, lost to Wisconsin in first round.
02-03: 16-13 (regular season, NIT was wiped), disappointing season in Hatten's final year, loss to BC in BET was crushing.
03-04: 6-21, Jarvis fired, Pittsburgh incident
04-05: 9-18, Norm Robert's first year
05-06: 12-15, crushing loss to Rutgers at home on final game to miss out on BET
06-07: 16-15, team finally makes BET, Showtime and Lamont Hamilton both injured for the game and can't play.
07-08: 11-19
08-09: 16-17, lost to Richmond in first round of CBI tournament
09-10: 17-16, finally win BET game, lose to Memphis in first round of NIT. Norm finally canned
10-11: 21-12, Lavin comes in, team goes on magical run in February, wins BET game on phantom no call against Rutgers, loses tough one to Syracuse, lose in first round NCAA against Gonzaga
11-12: 13-19, Lavin has cancer and misses most of the season
12-13: 17-16, Lavin is back, youngest team in the country, lose to Virginia in 2nd round of NIT
13-14: 20-12: Come up just short for NCAA (assuming).

My point? I know we're never going to be the best program consistently, we just don't have the resources of the other top schools. However, there's no reason we can't be in the top 25 from time to time. With all I've been through and seen in the past decade+ from this team, it's hard for me to be totally upset over where we're at now. We at least have a competitive team who will be in the running for the NCAA's when for the better part of the 00's, we were the laughing stock of college basketball.
 
I have to put this into perspective, because I can tell I haven't been rooting for this team as long as many of you, so I wasn't here for all of the past success of the 80's and prior to that. Even attending UConn for a undergrad and masters degree and watching them win constantly, I don't have unrealistic expectations for St. John's. But just since I've been rooting, here was our record since 01-02 season:

01-02: 20-11, made NCAA tournament, lost to Wisconsin in first round.
02-03: 16-13 (regular season, NIT was wiped), disappointing season in Hatten's final year, loss to BC in BET was crushing.
03-04: 6-21, Jarvis fired, Pittsburgh incident
04-05: 9-18, Norm Robert's first year
05-06: 12-15, crushing loss to Rutgers at home on final game to miss out on BET
06-07: 16-15, team finally makes BET, Showtime and Lamont Hamilton both injured for the game and can't play.
07-08: 11-19
08-09: 16-17, lost to Richmond in first round of CBI tournament
09-10: 17-16, finally win BET game, lose to Memphis in first round of NIT. Norm finally canned
10-11: 21-12, Lavin comes in, team goes on magical run in February, wins BET game on phantom no call against Rutgers, loses tough one to Syracuse, lose in first round NCAA against Gonzaga
11-12: 13-19, Lavin has cancer and misses most of the season
12-13: 17-16, Lavin is back, youngest team in the country, lose to Virginia in 2nd round of NIT
13-14: 20-12: Come up just short for NCAA (assuming).

My point? I know we're never going to be the best program consistently, we just don't have the resources of the other top schools. However, there's no reason we can't be in the top 25 from time to time. With all I've been through and seen in the past decade+ from this team, it's hard for me to be totally upset over where we're at now. We at least have a competitive team who will be in the running for the NCAA's when for the better part of the 00's, we were the laughing stock of college basketball.
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man, that brought up some heartache from years past.....man, we DESERVE to win!!!! win something! Thats why i say if we run the table in the NIT ill be satified, that is still a very tough task.
 
Reviving the thread topic about a firing is just an exercise in futility. It's not going to happen, and even the mot ardent proponent of firing should be aware of that. But post away if it makes you feel better. That;s not to goad the fire Lavin crowd - although in some nefarious way, a let's grab the pitchfork and torches mentality seems the fuel the tone here. There's almost a blood lust in the tone of "Fire Lavin" intonations. It comes from a bad place within. There's almost a revelry about it, a joy in the failure that is insidiously attached to the sincere letdown of losing a shot at the bid. it's also self serving, as in, "We know better, and firing the coach is better."

For the most part it went away during the 10 game run that produced 8 wins in 9 conference games. Some of you even justified the earlier calls for firing by "blaming" the improvement on Whitesell's more active role on the sidelines. Others were largely silent during the winning streak, only to return now.

Don't mistake the opinion of "keep Lavin" as a lack of passion, or misplaced loyalty. In big games, the only reason I'm in my seat and not standing through the games' critical moments is because I sit down when I realize I'm probably blocking the view of fans behind me who chose to actually sit in their seats. I took an afternoon off from work despite some pretty important issues on my desk.

Losing is never fun. I get it. UCLA has spent the past 39 years firing coaches simply because they couldn't approach the success of John Wooden. Joe B. Hall followed Adolph Rupp at Kentucky, and despite finishing ranked in 10 of 13 seasons and winning one NCAA title, he was criticized throughout his tenure before being released. This program has spent the last 22 seasons trying to repeat the consistent winning that Coach Carnesecca had. Well, now we say that. Back then, many of us hoped his replacement could finally elevate the program to compete with a two mentioned in this paragraph. In 2012 Kentucky unveiled a statue hailing Joe B. Hall. We named our court after Lou C.

We had the previous two BE ROY's and nearly a third this season. Our other guard is a first team Big East player. The center we are questioning in another thread right now has game altering shot blocking skills. Glass half full? Probably. But before you fill the glass, it has to reach the half full mark.

I don't know if any of the "Fire Lavin" crowd have ever been fired, at least fired from a job that was supporting your family. I'm not talking about getting fired from CVS in your teens or 20s - I mean getting fired when your salary is getting eaten up by diapers, rent or mortgage, and car lease payments. I'm not saying that people that coach for a profession shouldn't be subject to firing, but also that if you considered that you may or even should be fired tomorrow morning because someone above you thought you weren't smart enough, hard working enough, or simply competent enough, you wouldn't be so casual in your assertions.

For most of us, sports is an escape - a chance for a few hours a week to not think about tuition payments or dentist bills, and to make our favorite team's winning or losing the most important thing in the world. However, when it starts to really become the most important thing in the world, it's time to work harder on other parts of our lives.

Makes you wonder what guys would be feeling had Sampson made that layup, and we pulled out this game. Probably an out-of-kilter elation.
Click to expand...

It's hard to have a discussion when you don't seem to accept the legitimacy of our opinions Beast. It's one thing to disagree, but you've repeatedly dismissed the opinion that anyone could think it's time to replace the coach.
Why does this inherently have to come from a "bad place"? No offense, but I think that's nonsense. Some people of course go overboard in both their support and defense of coach. But wanting to replace coach lavin doesn't require a blood lust, and it surely doesn't arise from a bad place.


And I think your comments about our lack of empathy are going to fall on deaf ears. You made a pretty poor analogy. I don't dismiss the personal feelings that come along with any firing, because it's always rough. But you brought up paying for diapers and rent; and coach has made more in the last four years than a man making a good salary at $100k will make in his 40 year career.
And most people go to work every day knowing that if they're not smart enough, hard working enough, or competent enough for their job they will get fired.
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First of all, I think the call to replace a coach is subjective. You have a right to do it. You all don't realize how idiotic SOME of the posters sound who suddenly were appeased when we were on the brink of an NCAA bid. With Norm we were very far form being that kind of team. This squad was on the brink. You are entitled you your opinion, but the truth is that at $2 million dollars per year, which is the mid rate for a top conference and big time program, you are not going to do much better than Steve Lavin. You want to move a top notch successful coach at this level, and get a proven entity, you have to spend at least $3 million to displace him from a $2 million position. Think we can land a Brad Stevens type, who was underpaid in a small market? Good luck - the Celtics grabbed him for much more in a more prestigious job.

Lavin has recruited as high as 17 - when he arrived, we couldn't sniff 100. To me we are now playing big time basketball and falling just short of where we need to be. I know for you, its not enough - me either.

Pushing a team over the top to perennial NCAA status is more of an effort than most of us realize. Some teams get lucky - they nail a superstud of a recruit who can carry the team on his back to a bid. We don't have that player yet, and the collection of serviceable players has brought us just short. So, yea, blame the coach for that,, it's your right. IF it makes you feel better, call for his firing. But he is going to be renewed whether you like it or not, and St. John's would be very imbalanced to reconsider what they planned to negotiate just last week.
 
I was not happy with some of the coaching decisions yesterday, as were many. If sitting Obekpa was Lav's choice and not some nonsense by Obekpa, than I have a problem with him sitting while we were getting creamed on the boards. Also we were down .....lets just say plenty...why do we have Hooper? Isnt this why we got him, to shoot us back into games? BUT, in Coach's defense, he brought the team back to 1!!!! That "no call" on D'Angelo's 3 three pointer was epic, and that could of changed the game for us. All in all, Im happy with Lav and stand by him.
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If Hooper didn't become a turtle and go into his shell with the ball in his hands and 20 seconds to go in the first Prov game all but over, we wouldn't be where we are this morning.
 
I was not happy with some of the coaching decisions yesterday, as were many. If sitting Obekpa was Lav's choice and not some nonsense by Obekpa, than I have a problem with him sitting while we were getting creamed on the boards. Also we were down .....lets just say plenty...why do we have Hooper? Isnt this why we got him, to shoot us back into games? BUT, in Coach's defense, he brought the team back to 1!!!! That "no call" on D'Angelo's 3 three pointer was epic, and that could of changed the game for us. All in all, Im happy with Lav and stand by him.
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If Hooper didn't become a turtle and go into his shell with the ball in his hands and 20 seconds to go in the first Prov game all but over, we wouldn't be where we are this morning.
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And if Dom Pointer could hit a layup we wouldn't be here either.
 
I was not happy with some of the coaching decisions yesterday, as were many. If sitting Obekpa was Lav's choice and not some nonsense by Obekpa, than I have a problem with him sitting while we were getting creamed on the boards. Also we were down .....lets just say plenty...why do we have Hooper? Isnt this why we got him, to shoot us back into games? BUT, in Coach's defense, he brought the team back to 1!!!! That "no call" on D'Angelo's 3 three pointer was epic, and that could of changed the game for us. All in all, Im happy with Lav and stand by him.
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If Hooper didn't become a turtle and go into his shell with the ball in his hands and 20 seconds to go in the first Prov game all but over, we wouldn't be where we are this morning.
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And if Dom Pointer could hit a layup we wouldn't be here either.
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Pointer was horrible, maybe worse than horrible - but is a D1 player. Hooper is not.
 
You're definitely right that Lavin isn't getting fired. I still don't think there's any harm in discussing what some of us would like. You can't get a feeling for how the fan base feels, if the fans never speak their mind. I still vividly remember all the calls to WFAN in the summer of '98 screaming for the Mets to acquire Piazza. Doubleday is on record saying that's what made a difference in their decision.
This is different of course, but still, you can't get a pulse of the fans if they never say anything.

The part we'll differ on is that I don't think the extension is a foregone conclusion anymore. I think Lavin (or his agent) may have pissed people off by going to the press about that.
 
You're definitely right that Lavin isn't getting fired. I still don't think there's any harm in discussing what some of us would like. You can't get a feeling for how the fan base feels, if the fans never speak their mind. I still vividly remember all the calls to WFAN in the summer of '98 screaming for the Mets to acquire Piazza. Doubleday is on record saying that's what made a difference in their decision.
This is different of course, but still, you can't get a pulse of the fans if they never say anything.

The part we'll differ on is that I don't think the extension is a foregone conclusion anymore. I think Lavin (or his agent) may have pissed people off by going to the press about that.
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To defend your point, I will say in my brief exchange with Monasch a few weeks back outside the Garden, he wasn't too pleased with how the team got off at 0-5. That, though is likely a far cry from severing yet another coach, starting a process again, and resetting the program back to square 1. My thinking is that if Lavin could get UCLA to 5 sweet 16's in 7 seasons, he is at least capable of attracting the type of talent that can regularly put us in the dance. For my money, this squad, while impressively deep, was simply not a tourney team. Maybe Lavin needs more talent than this to win, who knows. Maybe Boeheim would turn these guys into winners - I'm even less confident about that. But I do know that this team played poorly more often than they played great this year.
 
Reviving the thread topic about a firing is just an exercise in futility. It's not going to happen, and even the mot ardent proponent of firing should be aware of that. But post away if it makes you feel better. That;s not to goad the fire Lavin crowd - although in some nefarious way, a let's grab the pitchfork and torches mentality seems the fuel the tone here. There's almost a blood lust in the tone of "Fire Lavin" intonations. It comes from a bad place within. There's almost a revelry about it, a joy in the failure that is insidiously attached to the sincere letdown of losing a shot at the bid. it's also self serving, as in, "We know better, and firing the coach is better."

For the most part it went away during the 10 game run that produced 8 wins in 9 conference games. Some of you even justified the earlier calls for firing by "blaming" the improvement on Whitesell's more active role on the sidelines. Others were largely silent during the winning streak, only to return now.

Don't mistake the opinion of "keep Lavin" as a lack of passion, or misplaced loyalty. In big games, the only reason I'm in my seat and not standing through the games' critical moments is because I sit down when I realize I'm probably blocking the view of fans behind me who chose to actually sit in their seats. I took an afternoon off from work despite some pretty important issues on my desk.

Losing is never fun. I get it. UCLA has spent the past 39 years firing coaches simply because they couldn't approach the success of John Wooden. Joe B. Hall followed Adolph Rupp at Kentucky, and despite finishing ranked in 10 of 13 seasons and winning one NCAA title, he was criticized throughout his tenure before being released. This program has spent the last 22 seasons trying to repeat the consistent winning that Coach Carnesecca had. Well, now we say that. Back then, many of us hoped his replacement could finally elevate the program to compete with a two mentioned in this paragraph. In 2012 Kentucky unveiled a statue hailing Joe B. Hall. We named our court after Lou C.

We had the previous two BE ROY's and nearly a third this season. Our other guard is a first team Big East player. The center we are questioning in another thread right now has game altering shot blocking skills. Glass half full? Probably. But before you fill the glass, it has to reach the half full mark.

I don't know if any of the "Fire Lavin" crowd have ever been fired, at least fired from a job that was supporting your family. I'm not talking about getting fired from CVS in your teens or 20s - I mean getting fired when your salary is getting eaten up by diapers, rent or mortgage, and car lease payments. I'm not saying that people that coach for a profession shouldn't be subject to firing, but also that if you considered that you may or even should be fired tomorrow morning because someone above you thought you weren't smart enough, hard working enough, or simply competent enough, you wouldn't be so casual in your assertions.

For most of us, sports is an escape - a chance for a few hours a week to not think about tuition payments or dentist bills, and to make our favorite team's winning or losing the most important thing in the world. However, when it starts to really become the most important thing in the world, it's time to work harder on other parts of our lives.

Makes you wonder what guys would be feeling had Sampson made that layup, and we pulled out this game. Probably an out-of-kilter elation.
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The best post on this topic. Ever.
 
Agreed. Unless you have Rick Pitino or Billy Donavan waiting in the wings, firing Lavin would be a step backwards.

I'm as frustrated with yesterday's loss as anyone but lets keep things in perspective. I imagine that everyone but the seniors will be back next year. Let's hope that the experience of this year will make them that much better next year.
 
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