Duke Game Thread

[paultzman]

YYY

Beast of the East Wrote:
Sorry about that in terms of suggesting you want Lavin gone. I don't have the energy after shocelling this AM and working all day to research FF recruitment, but I admit he did well in a very short time. Bootsy was a surprise, so was Grant (your 3 star theory). Artest was 4 star, and who else did he get - Cook? (4 star). Still doesn't compare to Lavin's Jordan, Pointer, Obekpa, Harkless, Sampson, Harrison and Max Hooper in quantity

FYI Fran Fraschilla clearly brought in the best group of players that has been brought in the post Carnesecca era. He brought in Ron Artest McDonald's AA (top ten recruit), Lavor Postell top 50 recruit, Reggie Jessie Top 50 recruit, Eric Barkley McDonald's AA, Bootsy Thornton JC all American (first team I believe) and others like Chudney Gray three star local kid or James Felton top 50 and Shannon Crooks top 150 who both didn't stick.

In the end he wasn't around long enough to coach these players much (he recruited but never coached Thornton or Barkley at all) but Jarvis turned his recruits into an elite eight team that could have or should have made the final four. (depending on your point of view)

BTW Cook was a Jarvis recruit but was higher rated than anyone Lavin has brought in, he was a McDonald's All American. Tyrone Grant was recruited by Mahoney.

Postell was a Brian Mahoney recruit.
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/fran-isn-caught-storm-article-1.846552

 

[capmaker]

I think the concept of "superior recruiting" should not only include the ranking of the individual(s), but more importantly their impact on the program. Should Jarvis get credit for recruiting Darius Miles? For FF, Felton was a bust, as was Crooks, of whom it was said....he should be a bodyguard, not a point guard. Similarly, Lavin should not get any credit for Pelle & Lindsey who contributed close to nothing.

 

[ghostzapper]

Paultzman Wrote: Postell was a Brian Mahoney recruit

Thanks! It was a little unclear in my mind about when Postell and Collin Charles were recruited. I forget exactly when they were signed and when Mahoney was let go.

 

[monte]

Beast of the East Wrote:
Sorry about that in terms of suggesting you want Lavin gone. I don't have the energy after shocelling this AM and working all day to research FF recruitment, but I admit he did well in a very short time. Bootsy was a surprise, so was Grant (your 3 star theory). Artest was 4 star, and who else did he get - Cook? (4 star). Still doesn't compare to Lavin's Jordan, Pointer, Obekpa, Harkless, Sampson, Harrison and Max Hooper in quantity

FYI Fran Fraschilla clearly brought in the best group of players that has been brought in the post Carnesecca era. He brought in Ron Artest McDonald's AA (top ten recruit), Lavor Postell top 50 recruit, Reggie Jessie Top 50 recruit, Eric Barkley McDonald's AA, Bootsy Thornton JC all American (first team I believe) and others like Chudney Gray three star local kid or James Felton top 50 and Shannon Crooks top 150 who both didn't stick.

In the end he wasn't around long enough to coach these players much (he recruited but never coached Thornton or Barkley at all) but Jarvis turned his recruits into an elite eight team that could have or should have made the final four. (depending on your point of view)

BTW Cook was a Jarvis recruit but was higher rated than anyone Lavin has brought in, he was a McDonald's All American. Tyrone Grant was recruited by Mahoney.

Yes Cook was an MCAA, but not sure that he was higher ranked than Barklay or Glover. If so, not by much. Both were very highly ranked. Glover was a FF commit but never played for him.

 

[austour]

Glover committed after Fran was fired.

 

[ghostzapper]

Monte Wrote:Yes Cook was an MCAA, but not sure that he was higher ranked than Barklay or Glover. If so, not by much. Both were very highly ranked. Glover was a FF commit but never played for him.

Cook was the sixteenth rated player in his class. Barkley was just slightly lower rated maybe high teens to twenty five coming out of High School but wound up going to prep school in Maine and was considered a top ten recruit by the following year. I think Glover was lower rated. He did not make the McDonald's game if I remember correctly.

Riverside Church was the conduit for much of the talent that came to St. John's back then. Artest, Barkley, Glover and Jessie all played with Elton Brand on that Riverside team. If St. John's had somehow gotten Brand too I believe they would have won it all.

Ernie Lorch ran that Riverside program and was a key component to funneling players towards St.John's. When it came out that Lorch was involved in a sex scandal the Riverside program fell apart and the pipeline was dismantled. Jarvis was not keen on making local connections and ultimately ran the program into the ground. Norm followed and St. John's has never completely recovered.

 

[Avon Barksdale]

Mahoney was also not the worst recruiter.

Unfortunately Felipe and Zendon never met expectations but besides them, he recruited Lavor, James Scott, Tyrone.....and Roshon McLeod who was a very good player but transferred to Duke.

The downfall of Mahoney was that he never recruited a legit BE point guard to replace David Cain. Tarik and Mo Brown were nice kids but they weren't BE players. As soon as Erick Barkley started to run the show we were a top 10 team.

 

[logen]

Certainly fatigue plays into our problems, but two items that stick out to me is we can't shoot, and we can't rebound.

And those 2 together make for a poor mix. You can get away with shooting a lower percentage if you rebound on the offensive end and limit opportunities for the other guy. Sometimes it amazes me that we compete as well as we do. It's a sign that the team was poorly constructed yet plays hard. Plus they are very athletic, which keeps them in games.

We compete because the team has D'Lo, a ton of athleticism and a ton of heart. With one or two other functional parts, this team would have been as good as almost any team in the country except for Kentucky.

\

I would have liked to see this team play with a guy the size of Keith Thomas added into the mix on the front line. That size and strength was a big loss.

Had Samson stayed another year-provided he bought in to the program-or had Thomas been eligible and lived up to advanced billing, this would have been a top 10 team IMO. I'm excluding ADR because IMO he wouldn't have given us anything more than JDR is giving us, and maybe less.

Had Sampson returned and put up his usual numbers this would be a top 10 team. I don't care about his alleged attitude. The shots Sampson made last year at a 50 percent clip are being missed by Greene at a 60 percent clip.

Interesting stat: take way three games where Greene shot 13 for 26 from 3 and in the other 16 he's shooting 20 percent (17 of 64). He makes Avery Patterson look like Reggie Miller.

So you're saying if if you take away the times he shot well, he shot poorly. Huh.....

No, I'm saying he shoots poorly 85 percent of the time. Try reading for comprehension, it's not only fun but you might learn something.

What I do know is stats can be twisted every which way. The bottom line and only real meaningful stat is Greene is shooting 33% from 3 which is respectable; wouldn't expect more from him. More importantly, he has made more than a couple of "big" 3's including pretty much turning around the Syracuse game with several. No one ever said he is a 3 point marksmen and IMO, he has played and shot better than I expected. But to really make an intelligent analysis of his or anyone's shooting % you need to go further than just pure stats. But then I would expect someone of your vast intellect would know that. So spare me the "junk" analysis it means nothing.

 

[austour]

Mahoney was also not the worst recruiter.

Unfortunately Felipe and Zendon never met expectations but besides them, he recruited Lavor, James Scott, Tyrone.....and Roshon McLeod who was a very good player but transferred to Duke.

The downfall of Mahoney was that he never recruited a legit BE point guard to replace David Cain. Tarik and Mo Brown were nice kids but they weren't BE players. As soon as Erick Barkley started to run the show we were a top 10 team.

To be fair Tarik was an extremely highly rated recruit coming out of Oak Hill, not as high as Felipe or Z obviously, but a top player. Just that the product on the court at STJ never met with that rating.

 

[monte]

Monte Wrote:Yes Cook was an MCAA, but not sure that he was higher ranked than Barklay or Glover. If so, not by much. Both were very highly ranked. Glover was a FF commit but never played for him.

Cook was the sixteenth rated player in his class. Barkley was just slightly lower rated maybe high teens to twenty five coming out of High School but wound up going to prep school in Maine and was considered a top ten recruit by the following year. I think Glover was lower rated. He did not make the McDonald's game if I remember correctly.

Riverside Church was the conduit for much of the talent that came to St. John's back then. Artest, Barkley, Glover and Jessie all played with Elton Brand on that Riverside team. If St. John's had somehow gotten Brand too I believe they would have won it all.

Ernie Lorch ran that Riverside program and was a key component to funneling players towards St.John's. When it came out that Lorch was involved in a sex scandal the Riverside program fell apart and the pipeline was dismantled. Jarvis was not keen on making local connections and ultimately ran the program into the ground. Norm followed and St. John's has never completely recovered.

Don't remember final ranking, but pretty sure Glover was top 20 coming out of Rice. He was also NY State Mr. Basketball.

 

[monte]

Mahoney was also not the worst recruiter.

Unfortunately Felipe and Zendon never met expectations but besides them, he recruited Lavor, James Scott, Tyrone.....and Roshon McLeod who was a very good player but transferred to Duke.

The downfall of Mahoney was that he never recruited a legit BE point guard to replace David Cain. Tarik and Mo Brown were nice kids but they weren't BE players. As soon as Erick Barkley started to run the show we were a top 10 team.

To be fair Tarik was an extremely highly rated recruit coming out of Oak Hill, not as high as Felipe or Z obviously, but a top player. Just that the product on the court at STJ never met with that rating.

My memory, which often fails me, about Tarik is different. I do not remember him being that highly ranked. Maybe top 200 or so.

 

[austour]

Monte Wrote:Yes Cook was an MCAA, but not sure that he was higher ranked than Barklay or Glover. If so, not by much. Both were very highly ranked. Glover was a FF commit but never played for him.

Cook was the sixteenth rated player in his class. Barkley was just slightly lower rated maybe high teens to twenty five coming out of High School but wound up going to prep school in Maine and was considered a top ten recruit by the following year. I think Glover was lower rated. He did not make the McDonald's game if I remember correctly.

Riverside Church was the conduit for much of the talent that came to St. John's back then. Artest, Barkley, Glover and Jessie all played with Elton Brand on that Riverside team. If St. John's had somehow gotten Brand too I believe they would have won it all.

Ernie Lorch ran that Riverside program and was a key component to funneling players towards St.John's. When it came out that Lorch was involved in a sex scandal the Riverside program fell apart and the pipeline was dismantled. Jarvis was not keen on making local connections and ultimately ran the program into the ground. Norm followed and St. John's has never completely recovered.

Don't remember final ranking, but pretty sure Glover was top 20 coming out of Rice. He was also NY State Mr. Basketball.

Pretty close. #23 in the first RSCI Index

 

[Avon Barksdale]

Monte Wrote:Yes Cook was an MCAA, but not sure that he was higher ranked than Barklay or Glover. If so, not by much. Both were very highly ranked. Glover was a FF commit but never played for him.

Cook was the sixteenth rated player in his class. Barkley was just slightly lower rated maybe high teens to twenty five coming out of High School but wound up going to prep school in Maine and was considered a top ten recruit by the following year. I think Glover was lower rated. He did not make the McDonald's game if I remember correctly.

Riverside Church was the conduit for much of the talent that came to St. John's back then. Artest, Barkley, Glover and Jessie all played with Elton Brand on that Riverside team. If St. John's had somehow gotten Brand too I believe they would have won it all.

Ernie Lorch ran that Riverside program and was a key component to funneling players towards St.John's. When it came out that Lorch was involved in a sex scandal the Riverside program fell apart and the pipeline was dismantled. Jarvis was not keen on making local connections and ultimately ran the program into the ground. Norm followed and St. John's has never completely recovered.

Don't remember final ranking, but pretty sure Glover was top 20 coming out of Rice. He was also NY State Mr. Basketball.

Pretty close. #23 in the first RSCI Index

We probably beat Ohio state in the regional final if he was on that team Imo. Should've still beaten them without him.

 

[monte]

Mahoney was also not the worst recruiter.

Unfortunately Felipe and Zendon never met expectations but besides them, he recruited Lavor, James Scott, Tyrone.....and Roshon McLeod who was a very good player but transferred to Duke.

The downfall of Mahoney was that he never recruited a legit BE point guard to replace David Cain. Tarik and Mo Brown were nice kids but they weren't BE players. As soon as Erick Barkley started to run the show we were a top 10 team.

Cain made BH look like a good coach. In fact won him Big East COTY. Once he was gone, BH's coaching deficiencies came to light. Is the James Scott kid playing High School ball in NJ our James Scott's kid? Always liked Scott. Phenomenal athlete and pretty damn good basketball player with potential to be a great basketball player. I could never quite figure out what was stopping him.

 

[Avon Barksdale]

Mahoney was also not the worst recruiter.

Unfortunately Felipe and Zendon never met expectations but besides them, he recruited Lavor, James Scott, Tyrone.....and Roshon McLeod who was a very good player but transferred to Duke.

The downfall of Mahoney was that he never recruited a legit BE point guard to replace David Cain. Tarik and Mo Brown were nice kids but they weren't BE players. As soon as Erick Barkley started to run the show we were a top 10 team.

To be fair Tarik was an extremely highly rated recruit coming out of Oak Hill, not as high as Felipe or Z obviously, but a top player. Just that the product on the court at STJ never met with that rating.

Yes he was highly rated But it never translated on the court (like Elijah Ingram). I just think if Mahoney had another pg he would've faired better. I know he tried to get in w Speedy Claxton but he honored his verbal to Hofstra.

 

[Avon Barksdale]

Mahoney was also not the worst recruiter.

Unfortunately Felipe and Zendon never met expectations but besides them, he recruited Lavor, James Scott, Tyrone.....and Roshon McLeod who was a very good player but transferred to Duke.

The downfall of Mahoney was that he never recruited a legit BE point guard to replace David Cain. Tarik and Mo Brown were nice kids but they weren't BE players. As soon as Erick Barkley started to run the show we were a top 10 team.

Cain made BH look like a good coach. In fact won him Big East COTY. Once he was gone, BH's coaching deficiencies came to light. Is the James Scott kid playing High School ball in NJ our James Scott's kid? Always liked Scott. Phenomenal athlete and pretty damn good basketball player with potential to be a great basketball player. I could never quite figure out what was stopping him.

Not sure if that's his kid although I know James 'twas from Patterson mj so it's possible. Maybe Paultz knows.

 

[monte]

Mahoney was also not the worst recruiter.

Unfortunately Felipe and Zendon never met expectations but besides them, he recruited Lavor, James Scott, Tyrone.....and Roshon McLeod who was a very good player but transferred to Duke.

The downfall of Mahoney was that he never recruited a legit BE point guard to replace David Cain. Tarik and Mo Brown were nice kids but they weren't BE players. As soon as Erick Barkley started to run the show we were a top 10 team.

To be fair Tarik was an extremely highly rated recruit coming out of Oak Hill, not as high as Felipe or Z obviously, but a top player. Just that the product on the court at STJ never met with that rating.

Yes he was highly rated But it never translated on the court (like Elijah Ingram). I just think if Mahoney had another pg he would've faired better. I know he tried to get in w Speedy Claxton but he honored his verbal to Hofstra.

Actually pretty sure that it was FF who jumped in late(right after he was hired) and tried to get Speedy to back out of his verbal to Hofstra. Don't think BH recruited him, or if he did, not very hard. Remember FF catching some flack for that.

 

[monte]

Mahoney was also not the worst recruiter.

Unfortunately Felipe and Zendon never met expectations but besides them, he recruited Lavor, James Scott, Tyrone.....and Roshon McLeod who was a very good player but transferred to Duke.

The downfall of Mahoney was that he never recruited a legit BE point guard to replace David Cain. Tarik and Mo Brown were nice kids but they weren't BE players. As soon as Erick Barkley started to run the show we were a top 10 team.

Cain made BH look like a good coach. In fact won him Big East COTY. Once he was gone, BH's coaching deficiencies came to light. Is the James Scott kid playing High School ball in NJ our James Scott's kid? Always liked Scott. Phenomenal athlete and pretty damn good basketball player with potential to be a great basketball player. I could never quite figure out what was stopping him.

Not sure if that's his kid although I know James 'twas from Patterson mj so it's possible. Maybe Paultz knows.

Yep, went to East Side High. Home of Joe Clark of "Lean on me" fame

 

[paultzman]

I

Mahoney was also not the worst recruiter.

Unfortunately Felipe and Zendon never met expectations but besides them, he recruited Lavor, James Scott, Tyrone.....and Roshon McLeod who was a very good player but transferred to Duke.

The downfall of Mahoney was that he never recruited a legit BE point guard to replace David Cain. Tarik and Mo Brown were nice kids but they weren't BE players. As soon as Erick Barkley started to run the show we were a top 10 team.

Cain made BH look like a good coach. In fact won him Big East COTY. Once he was gone, BH's coaching deficiencies came to light. Is the James Scott kid playing High School ball in NJ our James Scott's kid? Always liked Scott. Phenomenal athlete and pretty damn good basketball player with potential to be a great basketball player. I could never quite figure out what was stopping him.

Not sure if that's his kid although I know James 'twas from Patterson mj so it's possible. Maybe Paultz knows.

Believe he is.

 

[monte]

I

Mahoney was also not the worst recruiter.

Unfortunately Felipe and Zendon never met expectations but besides them, he recruited Lavor, James Scott, Tyrone.....and Roshon McLeod who was a very good player but transferred to Duke.

The downfall of Mahoney was that he never recruited a legit BE point guard to replace David Cain. Tarik and Mo Brown were nice kids but they weren't BE players. As soon as Erick Barkley started to run the show we were a top 10 team.

Cain made BH look like a good coach. In fact won him Big East COTY. Once he was gone, BH's coaching deficiencies came to light. Is the James Scott kid playing High School ball in NJ our James Scott's kid? Always liked Scott. Phenomenal athlete and pretty damn good basketball player with potential to be a great basketball player. I could never quite figure out what was stopping him.

Not sure if that's his kid although I know James 'twas from Patterson mj so it's possible. Maybe Paultz knows.

Believe he is.

Thanks Paultz. Can't find to much on him but looks like a 2 star/mid-major kid. Still wish we'd at least be keeping tabs on him. He's a local kid and and a legacy. FWIW Fairfield listed with him. I keep seeing Fairfield in he mix with some of the better mid-major kids. Good for them.