Criticism

[quote="Monte" post=408790][quote="Class of 72" post=408776]Criticism is in every topic thread so creating a topic for criticism is redundant.
I view this season as experimental basketball that will be mostly developmental in nature.
Covid has affected recruiting and the staff's ability to make inroads with out of state players is limited.
To date coach Anderson has done a good job in local recruiting but the out of state 4 star prospects that would be attracted to St. JOHN'S and the Big East cannot be courted as usual because of travel and quarantine conditions.
Those teams that were left with better and more experienced players will dominate. We will not be one them. Accept that and you all will be less critical.[/quote]

Agree with almost all of what you're saying. I was very critical of Lavin for not recruiting locally, and am thrilled with what CMA and the staff have done to immediately establish relations with the local powerhouses. And as I've said before, I like all of the local kids that CMA has brought in, as well as those who he is bringing in. Where I disagree with you is where you imply that the staff hasn't had luck with higher ranked recruits because of Covid. I mean, aren't coaches all over the country dealing with the same issue to one degree or another? And even if that is the case at the moment, there's no reason that we should not be in mix for higher ranked kids in class of 2022.[/quote]

Monte, I think the issue is that for a school like St. John’s to recruit a 4 star kid right now a relationship has to built for a couple of years and they have to be sold on the program because we have not had much success lately. With Covid that’s tough to do with limited personal contact with a recruit. If a kid has choice in a situation where there’s a school that has been successful lately and a school that hasn’t, without the ability of the recruit and coaches involved to build trust and relationships that come from personal contact, in home visits etc, the kid will just go to the school that’s better right now rather than take a chance. I think that’s what 72’s post is alluding too.
 
Since this thread is about criticism, perhaps many of the posters, in fact just about all of us, need to look in the mirror. A 3 point loss suddenly, it the eyes of some, means that CMA is an incompetent boob who can't recruit anywhere but the Deep South.

Here is what would likely be on the Georgetown post game thread if the team had been down 1 instead of 2 when Williams tied the game:

"What a gutsy win. The guys pulled together on a night that Penny had an off night"
"CMA devised a less than a second play that only excellent coaches can come up with"
"Coach knew what he was doing recruiting Moore. He was the best player on the court"

A 3 point loss in the second in conference game is way early to start the hysteria and negativity.
 
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[quote="Ray Morgan" post=408797]Since this thread is about criticism, perhaps many of the posters, in fact just about all of us, need to look in the mirror. A 3 point loss suddenly, it the eyes of some, means that CMA is an incompetent boob who can't recruit anywhere but the Deep South.

Here is what would likely be on the Georgetown post game thread if the team had been down 1 instead of 2 when Williams tied the game:

"What a gutsy win. The guys pulled together on a night that Penny had an off night"
"CMA devised a less than a second play that only excellent coaches can come up with"
"Coach knew what he was doing recruiting Moore. He was the best player on the court"

A 3 point loss in the second in conference game is way early to start the hysteria and negativity.[/quote]

Can't speak for anyone else, but my concerns about recruiting pre-dates our last 2 losses. I do agree that it's way to early to write off this season. I think we'll improve as the season progresses and the new kids get more comfortable with CMA's system.
 
[quote="Mean Gene" post=408795][quote="Monte" post=408790][quote="Class of 72" post=408776]Criticism is in every topic thread so creating a topic for criticism is redundant.
I view this season as experimental basketball that will be mostly developmental in nature.
Covid has affected recruiting and the staff's ability to make inroads with out of state players is limited.
To date coach Anderson has done a good job in local recruiting but the out of state 4 star prospects that would be attracted to St. JOHN'S and the Big East cannot be courted as usual because of travel and quarantine conditions.
Those teams that were left with better and more experienced players will dominate. We will not be one them. Accept that and you all will be less critical.[/quote]

Agree with almost all of what you're saying. I was very critical of Lavin for not recruiting locally, and am thrilled with what CMA and the staff have done to immediately establish relations with the local powerhouses. And as I've said before, I like all of the local kids that CMA has brought in, as well as those who he is bringing in. Where I disagree with you is where you imply that the staff hasn't had luck with higher ranked recruits because of Covid. I mean, aren't coaches all over the country dealing with the same issue to one degree or another? And even if that is the case at the moment, there's no reason that we should not be in mix for higher ranked kids in class of 2022.[/quote]

Monte, I think the issue is that for a school like St. John’s to recruit a 4 star kid right now a relationship has to built for a couple of years and they have to be sold on the program because we have not had much success lately. With Covid that’s tough to do with limited personal contact with a recruit. If a kid has choice in a situation where there’s a school that has been successful lately and a school that hasn’t, without the ability of the recruit and coaches involved to build trust and relationships that come from personal contact, in home visits etc, the kid will just go to the school that’s better right now rather than take a chance. I think that’s what 72’s post is alluding too.[/quote] Lavin came in and pulled 4 star recruits like Maher pulls 8.5 claw lobster rolls so I am not sure that part is true as much as I see it.
 
[quote="SI1996" post=408800][quote="Mean Gene" post=408795][quote="Monte" post=408790][quote="Class of 72" post=408776]Criticism is in every topic thread so creating a topic for criticism is redundant.
I view this season as experimental basketball that will be mostly developmental in nature.
Covid has affected recruiting and the staff's ability to make inroads with out of state players is limited.
To date coach Anderson has done a good job in local recruiting but the out of state 4 star prospects that would be attracted to St. JOHN'S and the Big East cannot be courted as usual because of travel and quarantine conditions.
Those teams that were left with better and more experienced players will dominate. We will not be one them. Accept that and you all will be less critical.[/quote]

Agree with almost all of what you're saying. I was very critical of Lavin for not recruiting locally, and am thrilled with what CMA and the staff have done to immediately establish relations with the local powerhouses. And as I've said before, I like all of the local kids that CMA has brought in, as well as those who he is bringing in. Where I disagree with you is where you imply that the staff hasn't had luck with higher ranked recruits because of Covid. I mean, aren't coaches all over the country dealing with the same issue to one degree or another? And even if that is the case at the moment, there's no reason that we should not be in mix for higher ranked kids in class of 2022.[/quote]

Monte, I think the issue is that for a school like St. John’s to recruit a 4 star kid right now a relationship has to built for a couple of years and they have to be sold on the program because we have not had much success lately. With Covid that’s tough to do with limited personal contact with a recruit. If a kid has choice in a situation where there’s a school that has been successful lately and a school that hasn’t, without the ability of the recruit and coaches involved to build trust and relationships that come from personal contact, in home visits etc, the kid will just go to the school that’s better right now rather than take a chance. I think that’s what 72’s post is alluding too.[/quote] Lavin came in and pulled 4 star recruits like Maher pulls 8.5 claw lobster rolls so I am not sure that part is true as much as I see it.[/quote]

That was also a decade ago..Alot has changed since then, including we are now two decades since our last NCAA tournament win lol
 
[quote="SI1996" post=408800][quote="Mean Gene" post=408795][quote="Monte" post=408790][quote="Class of 72" post=408776]Criticism is in every topic thread so creating a topic for criticism is redundant.
I view this season as experimental basketball that will be mostly developmental in nature.
Covid has affected recruiting and the staff's ability to make inroads with out of state players is limited.
To date coach Anderson has done a good job in local recruiting but the out of state 4 star prospects that would be attracted to St. JOHN'S and the Big East cannot be courted as usual because of travel and quarantine conditions.
Those teams that were left with better and more experienced players will dominate. We will not be one them. Accept that and you all will be less critical.[/quote]

Agree with almost all of what you're saying. I was very critical of Lavin for not recruiting locally, and am thrilled with what CMA and the staff have done to immediately establish relations with the local powerhouses. And as I've said before, I like all of the local kids that CMA has brought in, as well as those who he is bringing in. Where I disagree with you is where you imply that the staff hasn't had luck with higher ranked recruits because of Covid. I mean, aren't coaches all over the country dealing with the same issue to one degree or another? And even if that is the case at the moment, there's no reason that we should not be in mix for higher ranked kids in class of 2022.[/quote]

Monte, I think the issue is that for a school like St. John’s to recruit a 4 star kid right now a relationship has to built for a couple of years and they have to be sold on the program because we have not had much success lately. With Covid that’s tough to do with limited personal contact with a recruit. If a kid has choice in a situation where there’s a school that has been successful lately and a school that hasn’t, without the ability of the recruit and coaches involved to build trust and relationships that come from personal contact, in home visits etc, the kid will just go to the school that’s better right now rather than take a chance. I think that’s what 72’s post is alluding too.[/quote] Lavin came in and pulled 4 star recruits like Maher pulls 8.5 claw lobster rolls so I am not sure that part is true as much as I see it.[/quote]

Lavin's first recruiting class gave us all such hope. It fell apart a bit, but every recruit ended up playing here except for Pelle. I checked back, and the entire first recruiting class were 4 stars across the board. So it did happen.
 
[quote="Ray Morgan" post=408802][quote="SI1996" post=408800][quote="Mean Gene" post=408795][quote="Monte" post=408790][quote="Class of 72" post=408776]Criticism is in every topic thread so creating a topic for criticism is redundant.
I view this season as experimental basketball that will be mostly developmental in nature.
Covid has affected recruiting and the staff's ability to make inroads with out of state players is limited.
To date coach Anderson has done a good job in local recruiting but the out of state 4 star prospects that would be attracted to St. JOHN'S and the Big East cannot be courted as usual because of travel and quarantine conditions.
Those teams that were left with better and more experienced players will dominate. We will not be one them. Accept that and you all will be less critical.[/quote]

Agree with almost all of what you're saying. I was very critical of Lavin for not recruiting locally, and am thrilled with what CMA and the staff have done to immediately establish relations with the local powerhouses. And as I've said before, I like all of the local kids that CMA has brought in, as well as those who he is bringing in. Where I disagree with you is where you imply that the staff hasn't had luck with higher ranked recruits because of Covid. I mean, aren't coaches all over the country dealing with the same issue to one degree or another? And even if that is the case at the moment, there's no reason that we should not be in mix for higher ranked kids in class of 2022.[/quote]

Monte, I think the issue is that for a school like St. John’s to recruit a 4 star kid right now a relationship has to built for a couple of years and they have to be sold on the program because we have not had much success lately. With Covid that’s tough to do with limited personal contact with a recruit. If a kid has choice in a situation where there’s a school that has been successful lately and a school that hasn’t, without the ability of the recruit and coaches involved to build trust and relationships that come from personal contact, in home visits etc, the kid will just go to the school that’s better right now rather than take a chance. I think that’s what 72’s post is alluding too.[/quote] Lavin came in and pulled 4 star recruits like Maher pulls 8.5 claw lobster rolls so I am not sure that part is true as much as I see it.[/quote]

Lavin's first recruiting class gave us all such hope. It fell apart a bit, but every recruit ended up playing here except for Pelle. I checked back, and the entire first recruiting class were 4 stars across the board. So it did happen.[/quote]

Lavin had star power because he was such a prominent college basketball analyst at the time and every kid saw him on TV every night which was much to his advantage . Lavin also had the ability to meet with these kids face to face and glad hand them which was his strength. This past year with Covid coaches aren’t meeting with these kids face to face and so it makes it that much harder. Especially, when you’re trying to convince a kid to take a chance on program that has not had much success over the past number of years.
 
[quote="Mean Gene" post=408804][quote="Ray Morgan" post=408802][quote="SI1996" post=408800][quote="Mean Gene" post=408795][quote="Monte" post=408790][quote="Class of 72" post=408776]Criticism is in every topic thread so creating a topic for criticism is redundant.
I view this season as experimental basketball that will be mostly developmental in nature.
Covid has affected recruiting and the staff's ability to make inroads with out of state players is limited.
To date coach Anderson has done a good job in local recruiting but the out of state 4 star prospects that would be attracted to St. JOHN'S and the Big East cannot be courted as usual because of travel and quarantine conditions.
Those teams that were left with better and more experienced players will dominate. We will not be one them. Accept that and you all will be less critical.[/quote]

Agree with almost all of what you're saying. I was very critical of Lavin for not recruiting locally, and am thrilled with what CMA and the staff have done to immediately establish relations with the local powerhouses. And as I've said before, I like all of the local kids that CMA has brought in, as well as those who he is bringing in. Where I disagree with you is where you imply that the staff hasn't had luck with higher ranked recruits because of Covid. I mean, aren't coaches all over the country dealing with the same issue to one degree or another? And even if that is the case at the moment, there's no reason that we should not be in mix for higher ranked kids in class of 2022.[/quote]

Monte, I think the issue is that for a school like St. John’s to recruit a 4 star kid right now a relationship has to built for a couple of years and they have to be sold on the program because we have not had much success lately. With Covid that’s tough to do with limited personal contact with a recruit. If a kid has choice in a situation where there’s a school that has been successful lately and a school that hasn’t, without the ability of the recruit and coaches involved to build trust and relationships that come from personal contact, in home visits etc, the kid will just go to the school that’s better right now rather than take a chance. I think that’s what 72’s post is alluding too.[/quote] Lavin came in and pulled 4 star recruits like Maher pulls 8.5 claw lobster rolls so I am not sure that part is true as much as I see it.[/quote]

Lavin's first recruiting class gave us all such hope. It fell apart a bit, but every recruit ended up playing here except for Pelle. I checked back, and the entire first recruiting class were 4 stars across the board. So it did happen.[/quote]

Lavin had star power because he was such a prominent college basketball analyst at the time and every kid saw him on TV every night which was much to his advantage . Lavin also had the ability to meet with these kids face to face and glad hand them which was his strength. This past year with Covid coaches aren’t meeting with these kids face to face and so it makes it that much harder. Especially, when you’re trying to convince a kid to take a chance on program that has not had much success over the past number of years.[/quote]

We may not see face to face recruiting for a while. And yes the landscape of college sports has changed a lot over the years. Like many other rapidly changing industries, coaches will need to adjust to keep up with the times if they want to continue to be successful.
 
[quote="Ray Morgan" post=408802]Lavin's first recruiting class gave us all such hope. It fell apart a bit, but every recruit ended up playing here except for Pelle. I checked back, and the entire first recruiting class were 4 stars across the board. So it did happen.[/quote]

Lavin was a crafty and slick recruiter. The late Lute Olsen once said (paraphrase), "Steve Lavin was the one coach he feared if they were recruiting the same player."

I've mentioned this story before as Lavin had a plan but circumstances caused it to derail. He thought his first class of Harkless, Harrison, Pointer, Sampson, Greene, Garrett, and Pelle was gonna take off their sophomore season (Lindsey and Achuiwa) would've been seniors that particular season), along with the additions of Kyle Anderson and Rico Gathers (as freshmen). He admittedly took chances to jumpstart the program, and I do not fault him for doing so.

Unfortunately, for him and the St. John's program, he truly never recovered from that first class. Whether the plan was improperly thought out or not; there was a plan in place.

If things went to plan accordingly, then we may be having a different conversation today.
 
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[quote="MJDinkins" post=408809][quote="Ray Morgan" post=408802]Lavin's first recruiting class gave us all such hope. It fell apart a bit, but every recruit ended up playing here except for Pelle. I checked back, and the entire first recruiting class were 4 stars across the board. So it did happen.[/quote]

Lavin was a crafty and slick recruiter. The late Lute Olsen once said (paraphrase), "Steve Lavin was the one coach he feared if they were recruiting the same player."

I've mentioned this story before as Lavin had a plan but circumstances caused it to derail. He thought his first class of Harkless, Harrison, Pointer, Sampson, Greene, Garrett, and Pelle was gonna take off their sophomore season (Lindsey and Achuiwa) would've been seniors that particular season), along with the additions of Kyle Anderson and Rico Gathers (as freshmen). He admittedly took chances to jumpstart the program, and I do not fault him for doing so.

Unfortunately, for him and the St. John's program, he truly never recovered from that first class. Whether the plan was improperly thought out or not; there was a plan in place.

If things went to plan accordingly, then we may be having a different conversation today.[/quote]

Great post Dink. I really liked when Lavin was here TBH. He wasn't a great in game coach or at making adjustments but he was a very good recruited. I think he ran into some bad luck here, with getting sick and having suspend Harrison and then Obekpa for the tournament. I remember reading somewhere that he stopped recruiting because of change in higher ups at the school and he knew he would be out. May be an excuse but not sure.

Dink, want to know your opinion. Do you think if Lavin stayed here, he could have built here what Willard has at Seton Hall and Cooley have at Providence? Consistent teams vying for a tournament birth each and every year? I don't know but thats what I think we could have been if he was given more of a chance.
 
[quote="Ray Morgan" post=408750][quote="AJ Hidell" post=408747]Let’s compare Anderson vs Musselman:
Anderson inherited a team that went 21-13 and went to the NCAA
Musselman inherited a team that went 18-16 and went to the NIT

Anderson’s first year went 17-15 and finished T-8th in conference of 10 with non conference wins over Arizona and WVA and a loss to Az St.
Musselman first year went 20-12 and finished T-7th in conference out of 14 schools with non conference big wins vs Indiana, TCU and Georgia Tech.

Anderson’s 2nd year so far is 5-3 and 0-2 in conference and not ranked.
Musselman’ s 2nd year so far is 6-0 and 0-0 in conference and is receiving some points in both polls.

This season Anderson is barely squeaking by his out of conference opponents, where Musselman is blowing his out of conference opponents anywhere’s from 15-35 pts per game. We can argue that our games vs BYU and BC are stronger than Ark has played, but who can say Ark does not beat then both or go at least 1-1?

Just saying I would prefer the projected upwards path of the Musselman program now in year 2 of each program. Let’s see how the season plays out for both programs and do an end of year 2 comparison, taking into consideration RPI and NCAA ranking points. Because in the end, what we all want is a team that wins, and is ranked and goes to the post season NCAA’s. Fair?[/quote]

Fair you say? Completely unfair Anderson did not inherit a 21-13 team. He was left with 2 players, one of whom was injured. It is unfair to compare the obstacles CMA faces in recruiting to a commuter school that hasn't won in forever to a big money school like Arkansas. Musselman started at 2.5 million per year, with bonuses. If he were at St. John's, he would be getting bashed by now too. I thought Anderson did a great job last season. The team filled with newcomers hastily put together played well together in a tough system to master. So far, this inexperienced team has had, like all teams with no senior leadership, some growing pains. Comparing St. John's to Arkansas is like comparing apples to oranges. The only person I know that can compare apples to oranges is a friend who manages the produce department at Publix Supermarket in Florida.[/quote]

Musselman also recruited really well at Nevada before Arkansas, which is probably a similar program to us these days. Im just saying that since CMA has this great track record everyone brings up and recruited top 100 guys before he came here, why can't he do it now since both Mullin and Lavin were able to?
 
So Lavin was a great recruiter who won exactly zero NCAA games, right,,,yeah, it was all bad luck, not his propensity for NY restaurants; give me a break. All he proved is you can recruit highly rated players with no emphasis on character or commitment and not really win with them. Yes, he had winning records but made the tournament once with all his highly rated recruits. He had no clue as to how to maximize Pointer’s skills and was fortunate to have had no choice but that sheer numbers made him put him on the floor his senior year. Lavin certainly was part of Harrison’s turn around and should be given credit for that; Green was a very solid 4 year player while Harkless made a very wise choice and Sampson somewhat sabotaged a season playing for a pro contract. The other two main players were a joke, we all know who they are and they had no commitment to the program, their coaches or their teammates.
 
We're a NYC school in a part of the city that no kid ever imagines when they hear the words "NYC." Our facilities don't look like those of schools with football money. So we're already down a couple strikes, I think.

Plus I keep hearing how clean we are. If that's something we really want to hang our hats on, then recruiting is going to be mostly three stars who hopefully outperform their rankings once they get to college. If you actually think a non-Tri-state 5-star kid should come to St. John's, start donating to the slush fund because that's the only way it's happening. And then double your contribution if it's a true big man.

I think we lose a bunch of kids after this season. I don't like running kids off, but there are definitely some who would benefit from a change of scenery if the season plays out similarly for them. On paper I still like what the team might look like after an exodus. But the proof will be in the pudding.

If you've been unhappy with every coach we've had and are looking to blame someone, blame the decision makers who passed on hiring two Long Island coaches, one who is already a hall of famer, and another who is doing stuff at a school that hadn't done anything in 45 years.

If you guys think you are pissed now, imagine if Oliva got his way. . .
 
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[quote="Logen" post=408826]So Lavin was a great recruiter who won exactly zero NCAA games, right,,,yeah, it was all bad luck, not his propensity for NY restaurants; give me a break. All he proved is you can recruit highly rated players with no emphasis on character or commitment and not really win with them. Yes, he had winning records but made the tournament once with all his highly rated recruits. He had no clue as to how to maximize Pointer’s skills and was fortunate to have had no choice but that sheer numbers made him put him on the floor his senior year. Lavin certainly was part of Harrison’s turn around and should be given credit for that; Green was a very solid 4 year player while Harkless made a very wise choice and Sampson somewhat sabotaged a season playing for a pro contract. The other two main players were a joke, we all know who they are and they had no commitment to the program, their coaches or their teammates.[/quote]

I'm not the hugest Lavin fan, but when you recruit at the level he recruited at, you're going to having some kids who don't work out. Lavin also got plenty of high quality kids, including the ones you mentioned, Jamal Branch, etc. Lavin however did not always recruit balanced classes and rosters.. I'm still pissed at him for letting Ron Roberts go.
 
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I haven't posted in a while, but I've been reading the board daily (and have been since 1998). This is an interesting topic. I've been a fan since the glory days of the mid-80's when I was in HS, and I've lived with all the ups and downs ever since. Since Lou retired, easily the most successful teams we have had were the first two Jarvis teams (with Fran's players). My opinion on Jarvis as a coach has actually improved slightly over the years, despite his arrogance which alienated so many local coaches and that his staff was pathetically weak. He had to go - his recruiting had dried up and he was taking chances on more and more questionable players.

Norm was a nice guy who tried hard and cleaned up the program after the Pittsburgh mess, but he was never the answer. He did leave Lavin with some talent, and that first Lavin team was exciting and peaking at the right time when DJ Kennedy got hurt. That killed us, and we were one and done. Lavin had one monster recruiting class, and while he did pull in talented players after that class (Jordan, Obekpa) they also came with baggage. As soon as Lavin was gone, so were they.

In fairness, Lavin had gotten us to a certain level by his last few years - 20-21 wins, on the bubble, in the upper half of the BE standings etc. That's not bad, but I think its also fair to say that's about as far as Lavin would have taken us.

I for one thought we should aspire for better. I viewed the Mullin hire as a calculated gamble... could the Crown Prince of the program come back and use his HoF credentials to get us to a higher level? For a variety of reasons - Mullin's personal family situation, his weak staff (which lead to an overreliance on transfers) - it didn't work out.

Now we have Mike Anderson, who is BY FAR the most accomplished coach of all the candidates we talked to after Mullin left. He has a good staff - the best staff that we have ever had since Lou retired. He is recruiting New York guys - despite the silly claim that he couldn't. Look at his local recruiting compared to Mullin - it stacks up well. Our two best players (Champ and Posh) are NYC HS products, and next year's class has two more NYC guys, one of whom is highly-rated. He has an eye for talent - getting good production from under-recruited guys. And he's a good person.

The Georgetown loss was a bad one - no one can deny it. Georgetown is bad, and we should have beat them. But let's be honest with ourselves. This is the best coach and the best staff we've had since Lou retired. Recruiting is picking up (look at the relationships with top programs like OSL and LUHI), and will continue to improve. We're not there yet, but I firmly believe that before too long Mike Anderson will have us where we want to be - 20-25 wins a year, in the upper half of the BE, with a deep tourney run every few years.

And here's the real question... who do we think would come here and done a better job that what Anderson has done, given what he inherited when he took over? So I am content to let this man do his job.
 
Topic should be "Frustration". Criticism is warranted due to frustration of supporting this program. Criticism has consistently been in game coaching, taking over for poorly run teams, 3 pt shooting, free throw shooting, stupid fouls and needing a big man etc.... This has been the list in some form for nearly 2 decades. Criticism comes first, and now frustration. Don't know what it is now. Bordering on indifference I suppose.
 
I actually think the Norm comparison is somewhat interesting. IMHO our track record of recent coaches goes something like this:

Norm: Recruit high-character players who after 3 years of experience can be average-ish Big East players, focus on defense.

Lavin: Disregard character entirely, try to sign every single highly-ranked player that other schools are willing to pass on because of character concerns, do zero coaching, count on the talent to win games for you.

Mullin: Recruit high-character players with high talent ceilings, do zero coaching or player development, count on the talent to win games for you.

Anderson: Recruit high-character players who can contribute as freshmen, develop them with the expectation that some of them will far out-perform their rankings, fill in the talent gap with JUCOs, and try to recruit more talented players as you build the program.

There's a certain parallel there between Norm and Anderson. Both want to run clean programs, bring in kids with character, insist on attention to defense (clearly a struggle for Coach A this year, but there's no question about his commitment to his defensive approach anyway), and accept that Rome wasn't built in a day, it takes time to develop a program.

Obviously where the parallel ends is that Anderson is a successful coach who actually knows how to coach and develop players. But even Norm's approach wound up with his seniors in the NCAA tournament (albeit without Norm and with a couple of players added).

I guess what I'm saying is that there's a pretty clear divide between the "swing for the fences" folks (who tend to be Lavinites) and the "let's hit doubles and somewhere along the line we will sign a power hitter to complete the lineup or someone will develop into one" folks (who are thus far positive about Anderson).

But whether you agree with the latter approach or not, it doesn't seem all that reasonable to me to be hugely critical of a coach (who again, has never had a losing season) 8 games into Season 2, especially with all of the coaching and recruiting complications that COVID has presented.
 
Saw Redman Mike's post after I put mine up - seems like we are saying just about the same thing.
 
[quote="MJDinkins" post=408762][quote="NCJohnnie" post=408760]Room112 wrote:
I keep seeing this argument that Lavin and Mullin brought amazing talent here. Maybe if we blindly look at their star rating (and ignore who actually made it to campus, or how they performed when they got here).

I know this is not the best indicator, but this at least shows me how good the talent was under Mullin and Lavin.

From 2010 to 2020, St. Johns has had 3 players make the All Big East first team, and 1 player make the second team.

Dwight Hardy (a norm recruit)
D'Aangelo Harrison (twice)
Shamorie Ponds (twice)

Sir Dom (2nd team, once)

No JaKarr, no Mo Harkless. And as noted ad nauseum, all of the talent brought in didn't win us even a single NCAA tourney game. So in retrospect those players may have been highly rated coming out of high school, but did not perform to their ranking in college.

With all due respect, Harkless was a one and doner who performed well enough as a freshman to be an NBA lottery pick and is still in the league many years later. Hardly a disappointment.[/quote]

IMO, Harkless would've been the frontrunner for Big East POY had he returned for his sophomore season.[/quote]

The paradox is that when you don't recruit a Harkless type, you think if we just get one of those (a Cuffe, for example), we'll be set for a few years. However, when you are successful recruiting top shelf talent, you'd better be prepared to reload fast because they aren't going to stick around.

So, it isn't just the leap to bringing in some major talent, it's to be able to sustain that year after year. The better the player, the shorter the shelf life. It kind of shows how far we are from being a force in the league when we haven't landed a player of that stature at least since Ponds.
 
[quote="lawmanfan" post=408836]I actually think the Norm comparison is somewhat interesting. IMHO our track record of recent coaches goes something like this:

Norm: Recruit high-character players who after 3 years of experience can be average-ish Big East players, focus on defense.

Lavin: Disregard character entirely, try to sign every single highly-ranked player that other schools are willing to pass on because of character concerns, do zero coaching, count on the talent to win games for you.

Mullin: Recruit high-character players with high talent ceilings, do zero coaching or player development, count on the talent to win games for you.

Anderson: Recruit high-character players who can contribute as freshmen, develop them with the expectation that some of them will far out-perform their rankings, fill in the talent gap with JUCOs, and try to recruit more talented players as you build the program.

There's a certain parallel there between Norm and Anderson. Both want to run clean programs, bring in kids with character, insist on attention to defense (clearly a struggle for Coach A this year, but there's no question about his commitment to his defensive approach anyway), and accept that Rome wasn't built in a day, it takes time to develop a program.

Obviously where the parallel ends is that Anderson is a successful coach who actually knows how to coach and develop players. But even Norm's approach wound up with his seniors in the NCAA tournament (albeit without Norm and with a couple of players added).

I guess what I'm saying is that there's a pretty clear divide between the "swing for the fences" folks (who tend to be Lavinites) and the "let's hit doubles and somewhere along the line we will sign a power hitter to complete the lineup or someone will develop into one" folks (who are thus far positive about Anderson).

But whether you agree with the latter approach or not, it doesn't seem all that reasonable to me to be hugely critical of a coach (who again, has never had a losing season) 8 games into Season 2, especially with all of the coaching and recruiting complications that COVID has presented.[/quote]

Extremely reasonable and accurate post. The one caveat being; as long as the plan is to not just rely on coaching-up lower ranked kids and filling in with JCs. I think the Norm recruiting comparison is a fair one, but again Norm had no coaching experience and CMA has a lot. So from that perspective, I would hope CMA would get us back to the dance sooner then Norm's kids got there with Lavin. FWIW I have been extremely happy with most of what CMA and the staff have done in their time here. And I am not righting off this season based on a few early season games. This team is a work in progress and I fully expect that the best is yet to come. Hopefully beginning tomorrow night.
 
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