Criticism

[quote="Mike Zaun" post=408754][quote="Ray Morgan" post=408753][quote="Mike Zaun" post=408751]Whoa. Did you really just say SJ fanbase would be unhappy if Musselman was doing here what he's doing now at Ark? His statue would be built already. He has like 4-5 kids who are 4* and they have been a very good program under him only trending up. I'd be surprised if they weren't making tourneys most yrs and spending lots of time in top 25 very soon. Not to go off topic, but just responding to what was said. I think the important thing to remember is that CMA's likelihood of success here almost certainly depends on a significant uptick in recruiting. He brought some nice pieces here in Posh and Champ. But we need much more.[/quote]

Slice brought in 5 star recruits to Kentucky. He didn't bring in anyone here. There is little chance that Musselman would bring to St. John's players from Arkansas and indiana and Missouri like Musselman has to Arkansas. Maybe it will finally sink in, but CMA does not have the recruiting advantages Looie had, and Looie still had plenty of recruiting years where he only hit a single or double. No one has recruited well here since Fran, and he had an AASU connection that no longer exists. That's the reality.[/quote]

Agree with it being a much easier sell to a Ark type vs. us. But Lavin and Mullin (Matt) proved you can bring very good talent here. We beat #4 Duke and #1 Villanova on talent alone under Mullin and we won 20+ a few times on talent alone under Lavin throttling Cuse twice plus a ranking. Bad coaches but good talent. I think CMA is at worst a solid coach, but we will need a few more guys at the Champ level to really compete. Without more A list players, we have Champ, Posh, and a bunch of role players IMO.[/quote]

I keep seeing this argument that Lavin and Mullin brought amazing talent here. Maybe if we blindly look at their star rating (and ignore who actually made it to campus, or how they performed when they got here).

I know this is not the best indicator, but this at least shows me how good the talent was under Mullin and Lavin.

From 2010 to 2020, St. Johns has had 3 players make the All Big East first team, and 1 player make the second team.

Dwight Hardy (a norm recruit)
D'Aangelo Harrison (twice)
Shamorie Ponds (twice)

Sir Dom (2nd team, once)

No JaKarr, no Mo Harkless. And as noted ad nauseum, all of the talent brought in didn't win us even a single NCAA tourney game. So in retrospect those players may have been highly rated coming out of high school, but did not perform to their ranking in college.
 
Room112 wrote:
I keep seeing this argument that Lavin and Mullin brought amazing talent here. Maybe if we blindly look at their star rating (and ignore who actually made it to campus, or how they performed when they got here).

I know this is not the best indicator, but this at least shows me how good the talent was under Mullin and Lavin.

From 2010 to 2020, St. Johns has had 3 players make the All Big East first team, and 1 player make the second team.

Dwight Hardy (a norm recruit)
D'Aangelo Harrison (twice)
Shamorie Ponds (twice)

Sir Dom (2nd team, once)

No JaKarr, no Mo Harkless. And as noted ad nauseum, all of the talent brought in didn't win us even a single NCAA tourney game. So in retrospect those players may have been highly rated coming out of high school, but did not perform to their ranking in college.

With all due respect, Harkless was a one and doner who performed well enough as a freshman to be an NBA lottery pick and is still in the league many years later. Hardly a disappointment.
 
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[quote="NCJohnnie" post=408760]Room112 wrote:
I keep seeing this argument that Lavin and Mullin brought amazing talent here. Maybe if we blindly look at their star rating (and ignore who actually made it to campus, or how they performed when they got here).

I know this is not the best indicator, but this at least shows me how good the talent was under Mullin and Lavin.

From 2010 to 2020, St. Johns has had 3 players make the All Big East first team, and 1 player make the second team.

Dwight Hardy (a norm recruit)
D'Aangelo Harrison (twice)
Shamorie Ponds (twice)

Sir Dom (2nd team, once)

No JaKarr, no Mo Harkless. And as noted ad nauseum, all of the talent brought in didn't win us even a single NCAA tourney game. So in retrospect those players may have been highly rated coming out of high school, but did not perform to their ranking in college.

With all due respect, Harkless was a one and doner who performed well enough as a freshman to be an NBA lottery pick and is still in the league many years later. Hardly a disappointment.[/quote]

IMO, Harkless would've been the frontrunner for Big East POY had he returned for his sophomore season.
 
[quote="Ron" post=408731][quote="EliteBaller K" post=408730][quote="gman" post=408728]Curious if people would sign up for:
League record: 3-15, 3-15, 7-13, 11-9, pre-season picked 5th
Recruiting rankings: 63, 51, 125, 40: including only 1 4* recruit
Or would fans have wanted to fire that coach after year two?
I get people are disappointed with the last 2 games, but programs aren't rebuilt within a year.[/quote]

Gman, the only thing I'll sing up for is real improvement for next year. I don't even care about this year anymore, we probably will finish 9th, but that's how it is.
Cma will have a team with experience next year, should be no excuses for a bad start next year (they'll be 0-3 after Creighton), and atleast a top 5 finish next year.
Time to be taking serious again, 20 years is enough.
Ohhh and just one ncaa win, and I'm satisfied.

That's what I'll sign up for gman.[/quote]

Didn't you predict that we would vie for the conference championship?[/quote]

Lmao. Hell no I didn't
 
[quote="NCJohnnie" post=408760]Room112 wrote:
I keep seeing this argument that Lavin and Mullin brought amazing talent here. Maybe if we blindly look at their star rating (and ignore who actually made it to campus, or how they performed when they got here).

I know this is not the best indicator, but this at least shows me how good the talent was under Mullin and Lavin.

From 2010 to 2020, St. Johns has had 3 players make the All Big East first team, and 1 player make the second team.

Dwight Hardy (a norm recruit)
D'Aangelo Harrison (twice)
Shamorie Ponds (twice)

Sir Dom (2nd team, once)

No JaKarr, no Mo Harkless. And as noted ad nauseum, all of the talent brought in didn't win us even a single NCAA tourney game. So in retrospect those players may have been highly rated coming out of high school, but did not perform to their ranking in college.

With all due respect, Harkless was a one and doner who performed well enough as a freshman to be an NBA lottery pick and is still in the league many years later. Hardly a disappointment.[/quote]

I wouldn't dispute that at all, neither would I dispute Jakar being a disapointment. But that even further proves my point. A one and doner was brought in and didn't move the needle at all.
 
So let me get this straight; its ok for posters to continuously make excuses for why a coach who consistently recruited top 100 kids at his previous stops, has yet to recruit top 100 kids to a school which consistently attracted top 100 kids. That's ok. But it's not ok for other posters to challenge that "wisdom"? Makes no sense to me, but then again a lot of stuff doesn't on this board lately.
 
[quote="Room112" post=408764][quote="NCJohnnie" post=408760]Room112 wrote:
I keep seeing this argument that Lavin and Mullin brought amazing talent here. Maybe if we blindly look at their star rating (and ignore who actually made it to campus, or how they performed when they got here).

I know this is not the best indicator, but this at least shows me how good the talent was under Mullin and Lavin.

From 2010 to 2020, St. Johns has had 3 players make the All Big East first team, and 1 player make the second team.

Dwight Hardy (a norm recruit)
D'Aangelo Harrison (twice)
Shamorie Ponds (twice)

Sir Dom (2nd team, once)

No JaKarr, no Mo Harkless. And as noted ad nauseum, all of the talent brought in didn't win us even a single NCAA tourney game. So in retrospect those players may have been highly rated coming out of high school, but did not perform to their ranking in college.

With all due respect, Harkless was a one and doner who performed well enough as a freshman to be an NBA lottery pick and is still in the league many years later. Hardly a disappointment.[/quote]

I wouldn't dispute that at all, neither would I dispute Jakar being a disapointment. But that even further proves my point. A one and doner was brought in and didn't move the needle at all.[/quote]

In all earnest, no one thought Harkless was a one-and-done. Although, we'll never know, I do believe the needle would've (substantially) moved had he stayed in school another year.
 
[quote="Monte" post=408765]So let me get this straight; its ok for posters to continuously make excuses for why a coach who consistently recruited top 100 kids at his previous stops, has yet to recruit top 100 kids to a school which consistently attracted top 100 kids. That's ok. But it's not ok for other posters to challenge that "wisdom"? Makes no sense to me, but then again a lot of stuff doesn't on this board lately.[/quote]

Read this, it might help:

https://redmen.com/mission-statement.html
 
Monte, when there is a back forth on that or any topic, that's great because that is what Paul intends to happen on the site.

The issue is when a topic is posted over and over and over again by certain posters and on many different threads. It kills the site for everyone else because that is all that get's discussed.
 
[quote="Monte" post=408765]So let me get this straight; its ok for posters to continuously make excuses for why a coach who consistently recruited top 100 kids at his previous stops, has yet to recruit top 100 kids to a school which consistently attracted top 100 kids. That's ok. But it's not ok for other posters to challenge that "wisdom"? Makes no sense to me, but then again a lot of stuff doesn't on this board lately.[/quote]

One other way to look at it is that CMA is not the problem since he was able to recruit everywhere else; maybe the obstacle is the decades of mediocrity, scandal, program instability and the school itself. Maybe not, but not illogical.
 
[quote="Ray Morgan" post=408723]Although most here already are prepared for it, wait until the big announcement on Saturday when Cuffe pulls off his jacket to show his new Jayhawks jersey. I'm sure a bunch of posters are frothing at the mouth waiting for it.

I still hope somehow Kyle ends up here, but it is trending all Jayhawks. So says this article and several others just like it.

[URL]https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article247825005.html[/URL][/quote]. Kyle jr mentions Roberts and Self several times . Kyle Sr played for Roberts while here at St John ‘s , I believe . It’s nice we get what appears to be a Courtesy mention as among the Schools being considered .. We haven’t done well with the Sons of former Players as I recall . Different times , in many ways , not just BB .
 
[quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=408771][quote="Ray Morgan" post=408723]Although most here already are prepared for it, wait until the big announcement on Saturday when Cuffe pulls off his jacket to show his new Jayhawks jersey. I'm sure a bunch of posters are frothing at the mouth waiting for it.

I still hope somehow Kyle ends up here, but it is trending all Jayhawks. So says this article and several others just like it.

[URL]https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article247825005.html[/URL][/quote]. Kyle jr mentions Roberts and Self several times . Kyle Sr played for Roberts while here at St John ‘s , I believe . It’s nice we get what appears to be a Courtesy mention as among the Schools being considered .. We haven’t done well with the Sons of former Players as I recall . Different times , in many ways , not just BB .[/quote]

Kyle, Sr. didn't play for Norm Roberts.
 
Criticism is in every topic thread so creating a topic for criticism is redundant.
I view this season as experimental basketball that will be mostly developmental in nature.
Covid has affected recruiting and the staff's ability to make inroads with out of state players is limited.
To date coach Anderson has done a good job in local recruiting but the out of state 4 star prospects that would be attracted to St. JOHN'S and the Big East cannot be courted as usual because of travel and quarantine conditions.
Those teams that were left with better and more experienced players will dominate. We will not be one them. Accept that and you all will be less critical.
 
[quote="lawmanfan" post=408768][quote="Monte" post=408765]So let me get this straight; its ok for posters to continuously make excuses for why a coach who consistently recruited top 100 kids at his previous stops, has yet to recruit top 100 kids to a school which consistently attracted top 100 kids. That's ok. But it's not ok for other posters to challenge that "wisdom"? Makes no sense to me, but then again a lot of stuff doesn't on this board lately.[/quote]

Read this, it might help:

https://redmen.com/mission-statement.html[/quote]

I get it LMF, and my intent is not to be disrespectful of Paul, The Mods or the rules of conduct. It's just that many of the pro-recruiting comments are just as repetitious and outlandish and many of the anti-recruiting comments. So when a poster hails our latest recruit (whoever that may be) that no one ever heard of as the next under-the-radar stud/diamond-in-the-rough, and proclaims the staff to have some sort of magical eye for talent, then I think it's fair game to hear the counter argument. Even if that means hearing it from the usual skeptics of our recruiting. Now, if it's coming from a poster who just shows up to complain, that's a different story. Just my opinion. Obviously you all can do as you please.
 
[quote="OhioFan" post=408769]Monte, when there is a back forth on that or any topic, that's great because that is what Paul intends to happen on the site.

The issue is when a topic is posted over and over and over again by certain posters and on many different threads. It kills the site for everyone else because that is all that get's discussed.[/quote]

I hear you OF, but recruiting and the talent level of our players are linked at the hip, and there is always going to be an ongoing discussion. Especially when we are not winning. Not sure how we can change that without making the entire subject off limits.
 
[quote="Monte" post=408779][quote="OhioFan" post=408769]Monte, when there is a back forth on that or any topic, that's great because that is what Paul intends to happen on the site.

The issue is when a topic is posted over and over and over again by certain posters and on many different threads. It kills the site for everyone else because that is all that get's discussed.[/quote]

I hear you OF, but recruiting and the talent level of our players are linked at the hip, and there is always going to be an ongoing discussion. Especially when we are not winning. Not sure how we can change that without making the entire subject off limits.[/quote]

Don't give the mods any ideas.
 
[quote="Monte" post=408779][quote="OhioFan" post=408769]Monte, when there is a back forth on that or any topic, that's great because that is what Paul intends to happen on the site.

The issue is when a topic is posted over and over and over again by certain posters and on many different threads. It kills the site for everyone else because that is all that get's discussed.[/quote]

I hear you OF, but recruiting and the talent level of our players are linked at the hip, and there is always going to be an ongoing discussion. Especially when we are not winning. Not sure how we can change that without making the entire subject off limits.[/quote]

Monte, I agree with you and am sorry I wasn't clear. An ongoing discussion is exactly what the doctor ordered. The problem is so many threads get hijacked by complaints about the recruiting.
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=408776]Criticism is in every topic thread so creating a topic for criticism is redundant.
I view this season as experimental basketball that will be mostly developmental in nature.
Covid has affected recruiting and the staff's ability to make inroads with out of state players is limited.
To date coach Anderson has done a good job in local recruiting but the out of state 4 star prospects that would be attracted to St. JOHN'S and the Big East cannot be courted as usual because of travel and quarantine conditions.
Those teams that were left with better and more experienced players will dominate. We will not be one them. Accept that and you all will be less critical.[/quote]

Agree with almost all of what you're saying. I was very critical of Lavin for not recruiting locally, and am thrilled with what CMA and the staff have done to immediately establish relations with the local powerhouses. And as I've said before, I like all of the local kids that CMA has brought in, as well as those who he is bringing in. Where I disagree with you is where you imply that the staff hasn't had luck with higher ranked recruits because of Covid. I mean, aren't coaches all over the country dealing with the same issue to one degree or another? And even if that is the case at the moment, there's no reason that we should not be in mix for higher ranked kids in class of 2022.
 
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