Criticism

[quote="TheArtest15" post=408936][quote="Room112" post=408935][quote="EliteBaller K" post=408917][quote="TheArtest15" post=408905]Just A question........Would you guys rather get higher quality kids or win?[/quote]

Is this class room or basketball question?
What would rather have?

You might want higher quality kids, but you'll end up with the norm years, garbage years.
I don't know about you but sports is about winning. No cares about a classy last place team.
Just win baby, that's how I see it.[/quote]

Guessing you wanted Pitino here? Would you also be willing to cheat as long as we don't get caught, as long as we win? That's what it sounds like the way you're talking lol[/quote]

I did want Pitino here.Why would I not want him here, he wins. So you are saying hes cheated every years hes been a coach? Likely that because of his past he wont be cheating again. His former players seem to love him[/quote]

No way he is cheating now. His every move is under the microscope.
 
[quote="Ron" post=408938][quote="TheArtest15" post=408936][quote="Room112" post=408935][quote="EliteBaller K" post=408917][quote="TheArtest15" post=408905]Just A question........Would you guys rather get higher quality kids or win?[/quote]

Is this class room or basketball question?
What would rather have?

You might want higher quality kids, but you'll end up with the norm years, garbage years.
I don't know about you but sports is about winning. No cares about a classy last place team.
Just win baby, that's how I see it.[/quote]

Guessing you wanted Pitino here? Would you also be willing to cheat as long as we don't get caught, as long as we win? That's what it sounds like the way you're talking lol[/quote]

I did want Pitino here.Why would I not want him here, he wins. So you are saying hes cheated every years hes been a coach? Likely that because of his past he wont be cheating again. His former players seem to love him[/quote]

No way he is cheating now. His every move is under the microscope.[/quote]

I subscribe to the old adage "Where there's a Will, there's a Wade(or a Pitino)".
 
[quote="Room112" post=408935][quote="EliteBaller K" post=408917][quote="TheArtest15" post=408905]Just A question........Would you guys rather get higher quality kids or win?[/quote]

Is this class room or basketball question?
What would rather have?

You might want higher quality kids, but you'll end up with the norm years, garbage years.
I don't know about you but sports is about winning. No cares about a classy last place team.
Just win baby, that's how I see it.[/quote]

Guessing you wanted Pitino here? Would you also be willing to cheat as long as we don't get caught, as long as we win? That's what it sounds like the way you're talking lol[/quote]

Damn straight, I'd take Rick in a freaking ny second.
Instant top recruits, instant winning.

Why would he cheat? He's known as a cheater, so he knows everyone is watching him very closely.
You think he's that stupid to cheat now?
 
[quote="EliteBaller K" post=408941][quote="Room112" post=408935][quote="EliteBaller K" post=408917][quote="TheArtest15" post=408905]Just A question........Would you guys rather get higher quality kids or win?[/quote]

Is this class room or basketball question?
What would rather have?

You might want higher quality kids, but you'll end up with the norm years, garbage years.
I don't know about you but sports is about winning. No cares about a classy last place team.
Just win baby, that's how I see it.[/quote]

Guessing you wanted Pitino here? Would you also be willing to cheat as long as we don't get caught, as long as we win? That's what it sounds like the way you're talking lol[/quote]

Damn straight, I'd take Rick in a freaking ny second.
Instant top recruits, instant winning.

Why would he cheat? He's known as a cheater, so he knows everyone is watching him very closely.
You think he's that stupid to cheat now?[/quote]

N/M
 
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[quote="EliteBaller K" post=408941][quote="Room112" post=408935][quote="EliteBaller K" post=408917][quote="TheArtest15" post=408905]Just A question........Would you guys rather get higher quality kids or win?[/quote]

Is this class room or basketball question?
What would rather have?

You might want higher quality kids, but you'll end up with the norm years, garbage years.
I don't know about you but sports is about winning. No cares about a classy last place team.
Just win baby, that's how I see it.[/quote]

Guessing you wanted Pitino here? Would you also be willing to cheat as long as we don't get caught, as long as we win? That's what it sounds like the way you're talking lol[/quote]

Damn straight, I'd take Rick in a freaking ny second.
Instant top recruits, instant winning.

Why would he cheat? He's known as a cheater, so he knows everyone is watching him very closely.
You think he's that stupid to cheat now?[/quote]

Exactly. What are we all of a sudden a high and mighty program? There are a lot of coaches who cheat who are still employed and are at high level schools. If we were winning and doing shady things that never got caught I wouldn't care as long as we were winning, and I think that most of you would agree.
 
So the recruiting “stars” issue rages on. I don’t think anyone with a modicum of basketball knowledge refutes that you need good players to be good. Where people separate is the “barrage” of criticism by a handful of posters hell bent on questioning why CMA to date has not brought in high enough rated players to satisfy them. Their zeal is fed by a handful of posters who look at highlight mix tapes and declare every new recruit to be a perfect fit and way more talented than they really are.
So CMA’s recruiting is compared unfavorably to Lavin and Mullin, neither of whom won anything with their plethora of 4 star recruits. Both headed at least partially dysfunctional programs and neither showed a work ethic required to build a sustainable BE program. But, joy of joys, at least they underachieved with 4 star recruits. Let’s ignore they both handed over skeleton rosters to their successor.
Further, the SJU “reality (or challenges)” is largely ignored by the CMA critics. When asked why they think that level of player would or should pick SJU at this point in time, like a petulant child asked to explain bad behavior, you get silence. When asked to explain why the team he puts on the floor is talented enough to win games for 37 minutes and then proceed to beat themselves, you get the same silence. And yes, I believe in game coaching and possibly being married to a single style of play is part of that problem, I am not trying to say CMA is beyond reproach. But I am saying the recruitment criticism at this point in his tenure is just beyond my understanding.
Having said all that, we need better talent, no doubt, I am not arguing we don’t. But we will get better talent by winning, plain and simple. Unfortunately, winning enough consistently, stabilizing the SJU program to get better recruits is going to take time, plain and simple.
For those hell bent on criticizing Pinzon and Traore, one question, are they an upgrade to our current roster? Are they local and coming from a winning program? Winning begats winning, just like losing becomes a habit. The same people downplaying their recruitment criticized and belittled the recruitment of Wusu, who certainly has proven to be better than this critics implied. I would end this by saying that people who I know know basketball, like JPM, have a much different view of CMA’s recruiting; we shall see.
 
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[quote="Logen" post=408954]So the recruiting “stars” issue rages on. I don’t think anyone with a modicum of basketball knowledge refutes that you need good players to be good. Where people separate is the “barrage” of criticism by a handful of posters hell bent on questioning why CMA to date has not brought in high enough rated players to satisfy them. Their zeal is fed by a handful of posters who look at highlight mix tapes and declare every new recruit to be a perfect fit and way more talented than they really are.
So CMA’s recruiting is compared unfavorably to Lavin and Mullin, neither of whom won anything with their plethora of 4 star recruits. Both headed at least partially dysfunctional programs and neither showed a work ethic required to build a sustainable BE program. But, joy of joys, at least they underachieved with 4 star recruits. Let’s ignore they both handed over skeleton rosters to their successor.
Further, the SJU “reality (or challenges)” is largely ignored by the CMA critics. When asked why they think that level of player would or should pick SJU at this point in time, like a petulant child asked to explain bad behavior, you get silence. When asked to explain why the team he puts on the floor is talented enough to win games for 37 minutes and then proceed to beat themselves, you get the same silence. And yes, I believe in game coaching and possibly being married to a single style of play is part of that problem, I am not trying to say CMA is beyond reproach. But I am saying the recruitment criticism at this point in his tenure is just beyond my understanding.
Having said all that, we need better talent, no doubt, I am not arguing we don’t. But we will get better talent by winning, plain and simple. Unfortunately, winning enough consistently, stabilizing the SJU program to get better recruits is going to take time, plain and simple.
For those hell bent on criticizing Pinzon and Traore, one question, are they an upgrade to our current roster? Are they local and coming from a winning program? Winning begats winning, just like losing becomes a habit. The same people downplaying their recruitment criticized and belittled the recruitment of Wusu, who certainly has proven to be better than this critics implied. I would end this by saying that people who I know know basketball, like JPM, have a much different view of CMA’s recruiting; we shall see.[/quote]

It's less about stars and more about talent level. I think rankings are a better indicator then stars anyway. Regardless, it's not an exact science and there are always outliers as you and Moose love to point out ;) . If we start winning, things will calm down. But fans of all programs discuss/debate recruiting incessantly regardless of whether they follow a winning program or not. As for JPM, I've met John a few times and have the utmost respect for him. He certainly knows his basketball. But like everyone else, he has his opinions about players and recruiting. And like everyone else, sometimes he's right and sometimes he's not. As you say; we shall see.
 
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[quote="Logen" post=408954]So the recruiting “stars” issue rages on. I don’t think anyone with a modicum of basketball knowledge refutes that you need good players to be good. Where people separate is the “barrage” of criticism by a handful of posters hell bent on questioning why CMA to date has not brought in high enough rated players to satisfy them. Their zeal is fed by a handful of posters who look at highlight mix tapes and declare every new recruit to be a perfect fit and way more talented than they really are.
So CMA’s recruiting is compared unfavorably to Lavin and Mullin, neither of whom won anything with their plethora of 4 star recruits. Both headed at least partially dysfunctional programs and neither showed a work ethic required to build a sustainable BE program. But, joy of joys, at least they underachieved with 4 star recruits. Let’s ignore they both handed over skeleton rosters to their successor.
Further, the SJU “reality (or challenges)” is largely ignored by the CMA critics. When asked why they think that level of player would or should pick SJU at this point in time, like a petulant child asked to explain bad behavior, you get silence. When asked to explain why the team he puts on the floor is talented enough to win games for 37 minutes and then proceed to beat themselves, you get the same silence. And yes, I believe in game coaching and possibly being married to a single style of play is part of that problem, I am not trying to say CMA is beyond reproach. But I am saying the recruitment criticism at this point in his tenure is just beyond my understanding.
Having said all that, we need better talent, no doubt, I am not arguing we don’t. But we will get better talent by winning, plain and simple. Unfortunately, winning enough consistently, stabilizing the SJU program to get better recruits is going to take time, plain and simple.
For those hell bent on criticizing Pinzon and Traore, one question, are they an upgrade to our current roster? Are they local and coming from a winning program? Winning begats winning, just like losing becomes a habit. The same people downplaying their recruitment criticized and belittled the recruitment of Wusu, who certainly has proven to be better than this critics implied. I would end this by saying that people who I know know basketball, like JPM, have a much different view of CMA’s recruiting; we shall see.[/quote]

So true on the two LuHi recruits, JPM is indeed very high on their fit here, work ethic and future. In our many chats weekly he really has convinced me and, as you stated, John has a keen eye for talent and fit. Is he Infallible? Of course not, but his opinion v many ratings guys who never see kids works for me.
 
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I don't agree with that but to each his own. Not saying Nova program is 100% squeaky clean but I'd rather win a few less games and know we have a relatively clean program like Nova. It's not necessarily an either or thing (cheat or lose) imho.
 
Cheating is the quickest way to the top. It's also the quickest way to the bottom. The consequences to St. John's if caught would be a lot worse than if one of the blue blood schools get caught. St. John's would be made an example of. We want to earn our way out of the bottom of the league.
 
[quote="NCJohnnie" post=408977]I don't agree with that but to each his own. Not saying Nova program is 100% squeaky clean but I'd rather win a few less games and know we have a relatively clean program like Nova. It's not necessarily an either or thing (cheat or lose) imho.[/quote]

No one is squeaky clean NC. I guess there are degrees though.
 
[quote="Monte" post=408983][quote="NCJohnnie" post=408977]I don't agree with that but to each his own. Not saying Nova program is 100% squeaky clean but I'd rather win a few less games and know we have a relatively clean program like Nova. It's not necessarily an either or thing (cheat or lose) imho.[/quote]

No one is squeaky clean NC. I guess there are degrees though.[/quote]

There are certain things you can do that are unethical but not breaking rules, which don't go as far as cheating. For example, what Willard did to get Whitehead wasn't cheating.
 
Monte wrote:

No one is squeaky clean NC. I guess there are degrees though.

Totally get that Monte which is why I used the Nova comparison & "relatively clean". I do think there is a huge substantive difference between programs like Kansas, Arizona, LSU & programs like Nova.
 
[quote="Ray Morgan" post=408980]Cheating is the quickest way to the top. It's also the quickest way to the bottom. The consequences to St. John's if caught would be a lot worse than if one of the blue blood schools get caught. St. John's would be made an example of. We want to earn our way out of the bottom of the league.[/quote]

SJU had to forfeit more than 45 games for Jarvis’ fine work. Keep it clean.
 
[quote="NCJohnnie" post=408985]Monte wrote:

No one is squeaky clean NC. I guess there are degrees though.

Totally get that Monte which is why I used the Nova comparison & "relatively clean". I do think there is a huge substantive difference between programs like Kansas, Arizona, LSU & programs like Nova.[/quote]
Wright got a few slaps on the wrist early in his Nova tenure for recruiting violations. Guess he chose to take some risks back then to help get the program to where it is now. Risks he doesn't need to take now.
 
There doesn't need to be a debate about recruiting. It's better to have a team of 4 star rather than 3 star players. Rivals and other services must be pretty accurate. You don't see Wright, Calipari, Self and Williams recruiting 3 star players thinking they will outsmart the rankings. CMA, OTOH, has to outsmart the rankings and find 3* recruits that are underrated and will develop, primarily because he can't offer the nicest training facilities or arena, and can't attract a kid who wants to compete for a national title in the few years he may play college ball. I think he has a good eye for talent, and plays a system that can neutralize the skill set differential he faces in almost every Big East game.
 
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[quote="Ray Morgan" post=408999]There doesn't need to be a debate about recruiting. It's better to have a team of 4 star rather than 3 star players. Rivals and other services must be pretty accurate. You don't see Wright, Calipari, Self and Williams recruiting 3 star players thinking they will outsmart the rankings. CMA, OTOH, has to outsmart the rankings and find 3* recruits that are underrated and will develop, primarily because he can't offer the nicest training facilities or arena, and can't attract a kid who wants to compete for a national title in the few years he may play college ball. I think he has a good eye for talent, and plays a system that can neutralize the skill set differential he faces in almost every Big East game.[/quote]

Ray, that's a very fair post (as are Logen's two that are now both on this thread), but I see it slightly differently. The "stars" ranking system includes two factors that I think get lost in the shuffle around here to varying degrees: odds and time.

The ranking system does not guarantee that a "5 star" is going to be a star or that a "2 star" is going to stink. It just tells you (in part) that the evaluator thinks that a 5 star player has a higher probability of being outstanding or very productive than a 4 star, that a 4 star has a higher probability of being outstanding, very productive or productive than a 3 star, and that a 3 star has a lower probabilities in those categories than a 4 star. To put it in Monte terms, the rater is just telling you what s/he thinks the ODDs are.

So you're right, Anderson has a harder time finding 3s with upside than Coach K does in finding 5s with upside, but it's far from impossible for a good talent evaluator. And there is also the second element to consider (and that's the one that really gets lost around here) which is TIME.

The college basketball pipeline now is about getting players to the NBA (or other paying basketball jobs) as soon as possible. So (in part) when a rater tells you a player is a 5 star, what s/he is saying is that they think the player is ready to excel in the college game NOW.

A 3 star - if you pick the right one - may turn out to have the same upside as a 5 star ... just not right away. You don't have to look hard to find Mamu across the river, who was a 3 star and now looks like a first round NBA draft pick. It took him 4 years, though. In our house you can find Champagnie, who may need another year but seems to be on a similar trajectory.

This is why I find the recruiting discussion here so tiresome, especially when it's really just a stalking horse for criticism of the Coach practically as soon as he hung his pictures on the wall in his office. If it turns out that he can't evaluate talent, and that over time the players he brings in can't get the program back to relevance, then it will be time to criticize. But it's only fair to give the man an opportunity to develop the players he's decided to recruit and see how it turns out. It just may take time. After 30+ years of being a season ticket holder and a Red/White member, if I can have a little patience, I'd think just about anyone can.
 
There is no denying Pitino is a great Coach . But , his Career started with taking a good , not great Providence team very deep in the NCAA tourney is . It was the Billy Donavan team . Next he got the Knicks. Job and parlayed. to Kentucky , Celtics , Louisville and now , Iona . As respects Kentucky and L’ville , both are long standing Top 20 or even multiple NCAA Champs . As such , getting access to 5 Star and 1 and done players is not very difficult .Then too , both are large State funded Schools with almost unlimited budgets forcSports and on Campus facilities . And , both Schools have had difficulties with Playing by the Rules . Same with CMA to a extent , while at Arkansas he had pipelines to the 5 star or highly rated players in that State but , he did not cheat . They play in the SEC and while Football is the number 1 sport there , BB still gets a lot of money to work with and they have top notch on Campus gyms , locker rooms , etc . At St John’s , after 2 decades of poor results , the Top level kids are not coming here . Yet ! They will take note , if St John’s can get back to Winning BB and CMA shows he can get kids to the Pros . It will take a few years . As long as incremental improvement is made , the Recruiting will improve . Anderson knows what it takes . The difficulty is that our Program is not a marquee destination right now . It can be , if Winning consistently happens .
 
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