Coaching Decision Poll

[OLV72]

I'm shocked at how many people have such low expectations for the program. Or how many people see "20 wins" and no farther.

We see the risk involved in replacing coaching staffs. We saw what SHU did when they were not satisfied with just making the dance. Two coaches later they have two NIT's in nine seasons. That's what their two "up and coming coaches" have produced - in addition to more off the court trouble than this program has ever had.

We also know that coaches do not bang down the door to come here. In the two previous searches it was becoming an embarrassment. In the last search NY talk radio picked this up and spoke loudly questioning why anyone would consider a "small school in Queens" as our former coach incorrectly referred to SJU.

Why are you so confident that five years later it will be any different?

I have little confidence that Miller or either Hurley would take this job over the many others that will be coming their way. I am not even confident that if they landed this job they would succeed.

Next year is a down year. Wright has had a losing season while retooling. The year after we should be back in good shape in the top half of the league again.

Extend him - load it with incentives and hopefully a buy out that the school can afford.

See Jack Williams post above, which is a partial answer to your question.

Lavin's teams play awful basketball. He is a terrible tactician, which is exacerbated by his inability to make in-game adjustments and his mind boggling substitution patterns. This year he avoided the latter problem by constructing a team with no subs -or at least none he chose to use.

His vaunted recruiting had consisted of two one-and-dones who are now marginal NBA players, a dozen players who were ineligible, transferred, etc, and zero program building. We will be starting next year with Alibegovic, Delarosa, and Balamou. Oh, and Christian Jones. Good luck with that.

Even if by some stroke of "luck" the two head cases who have remaining eligibility return, it will only be because they didn't have any better options. And it will still put the team in the bottom half of the league next year.

I can't imagine more haphazard, disorganized, unintelligent approach to constructing a Division 1 basketball program.

I can only imagine that those who want Lavin to return are either undisturbed by the terrible product Lavin has put on the floor for the past 5 years (and they should watch some of the tournament to see how real basketball is played, there is a lot of it to see) or are still using the Norm years as their barometer, which in my opinion is misguided.

Bottom line is that he wins 63% over 12 years of coaching in the most competitive conferences. I hear the coaches sitting 200 feet away from the bench after every loss. I also see them scratching their heads when this coach beats a Chris Mack twice in a row. Every coach has his negatives and positives, but at the end of the day they are judged by their record. His record is as good as most of the coaches his detractors envy and his players graduate - look it up.

The vocal minority on this board may get what they want. They may regret what they wish for. Just as the many SHU fans regret what they got back in 2005.

 

[we are sju]

Here's a scenario.

We sign the popular pick and flavor of the month (Hurley), who hasn't been recruiting Big East caliber players. He needs to fill an entire roster in basically a few weeks. We suck for the next two or three years and suddenly nobody thinks Hurley is a good coach. If Hurley can come here, convince Jordan and CO to stay, sign Diallo and retain Sampson, then sure sign him up. But Lavin is more likely to so that than Hurley.

Good point if we are to salvage next year, I can't believe I am saying this but Lavin is clearly our best option.

 

[Class of 72]

Lavin's gotta go. We've seen what he is capable of and it's just not worth the trouble. Bring in a young gun and see if we can get lucky.

I'm not as adamant that Lavin's "gotta go." I think what makes this decision so hard is that there is a good chance, IMHO, that making a coaching change now might result in a worse outcome for us. It's all conjecture. Nobody can guarantee anything. The question is: Is it worth taking a chance on a new coach now? Personally, I don't think so.

Think of it this way. Renew Lavin now and the way it looks with Sheed and Obekpa most likely gone, we are at best 3 years away from another tournament. With the current talk about Lavin imagine how bad it will get after at least 2 losing/NIT seasons. It will be absolutely miserable to be a fan of this program. Get someone fresh in there and see what they can do.

I hear what you're saying, and I respect it. But, it's still a huge chance bringing in a new guy. Plus, you're assuming 2 losing/NIT seasons. Not sure I'm buying that. We bring in a fresh face who does absolutely nothing, and we are set back even further.

Life is about chances isn't it, you can't be scared and just accept avg all of your life

That's impressive!

Again, not in favor of a coaching change does not mean I accept average. That is a huge assumption on your part. And you know what they say about people who assume.

For what it's worth, I've taken plenty of chances in my life. Some have worked out wonderfully, some have been merely OK, and others have failed. I'm not scared to take chances. And for you to state that I am is disingenuous, at best. Please don't assume you know me. You don't.

Haters have gone from attacking Lavin to attacking those who support Lavin. I suspect it is because thay are starting to worry that he will be extended and they are in panic mode. I'm sure they are surprised at the results (so far) of this poll. Don't let it bother you, Tony.

Wouldn't surprise me if certain mods are trying to figure out how to vote more than once. My other concern is that Baldi and Real Fan have multiple screen names to match their multiple personalities thereby also compromising the tallying.

 

[we are sju]

Lavin's gotta go. We've seen what he is capable of and it's just not worth the trouble. Bring in a young gun and see if we can get lucky.

I'm not as adamant that Lavin's "gotta go." I think what makes this decision so hard is that there is a good chance, IMHO, that making a coaching change now might result in a worse outcome for us. It's all conjecture. Nobody can guarantee anything. The question is: Is it worth taking a chance on a new coach now? Personally, I don't think so.

Think of it this way. Renew Lavin now and the way it looks with Sheed and Obekpa most likely gone, we are at best 3 years away from another tournament. With the current talk about Lavin imagine how bad it will get after at least 2 losing/NIT seasons. It will be absolutely miserable to be a fan of this program. Get someone fresh in there and see what they can do.

I hear what you're saying, and I respect it. But, it's still a huge chance bringing in a new guy. Plus, you're assuming 2 losing/NIT seasons. Not sure I'm buying that. We bring in a fresh face who does absolutely nothing, and we are set back even further.

Life is about chances isn't it, you can't be scared and just accept avg all of your life

That's impressive!

Again, not in favor of a coaching change does not mean I accept average. That is a huge assumption on your part. And you know what they say about people who assume.

For what it's worth, I've taken plenty of chances in my life. Some have worked out wonderfully, some have been merely OK, and others have failed. I'm not scared to take chances. And for you to state that I am is disingenuous, at best. Please don't assume you know me. You don't.

Haters have gone from attacking Lavin to attacking those who support Lavin. I suspect it is because thay are starting to worry that he will be extended and they are in panic mode. I'm sure they are surprised at the results (so far) of this poll. Don't let it bother you, Tony.

hahaha worry about? Hey I have my own life to live, with my own business. The school will do as they want with Lavin, I have no controll as everyone else on this board.
If they want to be an avg bball team under Lavin then so be it, and I'll just go on with the rest of my life.

You just posted why he should return. AVERAGE basketball team. Prior to Lavin we sucked. That is an improvement.

 

[redfan259999888]

Lavin's gotta go. We've seen what he is capable of and it's just not worth the trouble. Bring in a young gun and see if we can get lucky.

I'm not as adamant that Lavin's "gotta go." I think what makes this decision so hard is that there is a good chance, IMHO, that making a coaching change now might result in a worse outcome for us. It's all conjecture. Nobody can guarantee anything. The question is: Is it worth taking a chance on a new coach now? Personally, I don't think so.

Think of it this way. Renew Lavin now and the way it looks with Sheed and Obekpa most likely gone, we are at best 3 years away from another tournament. With the current talk about Lavin imagine how bad it will get after at least 2 losing/NIT seasons. It will be absolutely miserable to be a fan of this program. Get someone fresh in there and see what they can do.

I hear what you're saying, and I respect it. But, it's still a huge chance bringing in a new guy. Plus, you're assuming 2 losing/NIT seasons. Not sure I'm buying that. We bring in a fresh face who does absolutely nothing, and we are set back even further.

Life is about chances isn't it, you can't be scared and just accept avg all of your life

That's impressive!

Again, not in favor of a coaching change does not mean I accept average. That is a huge assumption on your part. And you know what they say about people who assume.

For what it's worth, I've taken plenty of chances in my life. Some have worked out wonderfully, some have been merely OK, and others have failed. I'm not scared to take chances. And for you to state that I am is disingenuous, at best. Please don't assume you know me. You don't.

Haters have gone from attacking Lavin to attacking those who support Lavin. I suspect it is because thay are starting to worry that he will be extended and they are in panic mode. I'm sure they are surprised at the results (so far) of this poll. Don't let it bother you, Tony.

hahaha worry about? Hey I have my own life to live, with my own business. The school will do as they want with Lavin, I have no controll as everyone else on this board.
If they want to be an avg bball team under Lavin then so be it, and I'll just go on with the rest of my life.

Yes, please do. I think a few people on this board would like that.

It all depends on if Lavin is back.

 

[room112]

Here's my take. I've been overly optimistic, but I voted no. A few points:

-Tired of hearing this back to back 20 win seasons accolade. Teams are playing more games than ever

-Lavin doesn't appear to be hungry. Too many lapses on the recruiting trail. Throw in the fact he hasn't evened out the classes after 5 years

-He'd probably make a great guidance counselor, but he's not a good game coach and we're such an ugly team to watch.

-His postseason record is unacceptable.

-All that being said, I think we need a change from the top down. Enough of this mom and pop mentality. I'm not sure we'd even hire an upgrade

 

[redfan259999888]

I'm shocked at how many people have such low expectations for the program. Or how many people see "20 wins" and no farther.

Exactly, going to the NCAA Tourny once every four years is just fine with most SJU I guess, being the youngest team in year six is just fine with them also.
With that mentality we'll be with the former nyc great schools (Fordham, NYU.....), just a nobody.

Just sad that this is ok in the minds of most sju fans.

You are just flat out dead wrong. Just because I do not want to make a coaching change does not mean I am satisfied with making the tourney every four years, being the youngest team every six years or sinking to the level of a Fordham and an NYU. You, and the other Lavin haters, just continue to spout this BS. You continue to spout this propaganda so much that you have started believing your own garbage.

I want this program to get back to what it once was as much as you do. I'm just not convinced that changing coaches, especially with who's available, is the answer. If there is a coaching change, not you, nor anyone else, can guarantee that it will get better.

So we're gonna get back to where we should be by being the youngest team once again in his sixth year??? Tell me something Tony, if this idiot knew wtf he was doing, then how is it possible again to be the youngest team once again 4yrs after he was coach of the youngest team in the country (@ SJU). That not acceptable, whether you or others want to think so or not.
What happened to the recruiting last year? We heard nothing from him or staff until April then he goes out and gets Adonis and Keith, but either has played a single damn minute the whole year.
So now that we got 1 4star and 2 3 stars, it's clap clap clap lets extend him?
Lets look at his postseason at SJU with his recruits.
0-4 in the B.E Tourny, 0-1 in the NCAA, 1-2 in the NIT.

Oh hell yeah that's some real bang bup job there Lavin, @ sju you deserve a lifetime contract for that great job. Let sju do whatever they want, most sju here would be happy anyway so who cares.

You know what? I'm beginning to question whether you really want to see our program succeed or if you want the program to fail so you can continue with all your negativity.

Question all you want, but you're blind if you think that we'll ever do big things as long as this guy is here. Of course you are ok with that. You're to scared to take a chance

 

[T6K0E6]

SJU also needs to give Lavin the tools that he needs and spend more money on upgrading the facilities, which I hear is also a problem.

 

[redfan259999888]

Here's a scenario.

We sign the popular pick and flavor of the month (Hurley), who hasn't been recruiting Big East caliber players. He needs to fill an entire roster in basically a few weeks. We suck for the next two or three years and suddenly nobody thinks Hurley is a good coach. If Hurley can come here, convince Jordan and CO to stay, sign Diallo and retain Sampson, then sure sign him up. But Lavin is more likely to so that than Hurley.

nonono we know he is a good coach, but it doesn't matter how good of a coach you are, you still need talent.
That's why I'm willing to give any new coach a pass for the first 2 years.

 

[simplyred]

SJU also needs to give Lavin the tools that he needs and spend more money on upgrading the facilities, which I hear is also a problem.

I don'tbuy tha the facilities are a problem. Taffner is relatively new and was a big upgrade over what we had before. CA is a dump but we are not gonna build a 10,000 seat arena on campus. We play a majority of our games at the Garden. It was just totally renovated and is a great place for a basketball game. Better dorms for athletes (like UK)?

 

[room112]

i took Lavin at his word and believed him that this Program would be resurrected and become a contender again in the BE Conference and nationally. He did not meet those goals as a Coach. He has had adequate time to build a Program and, hasn't.

Are you really that delusional? So him having us nationally ranked in 2 of 4 years on the bench and making the tourney in 2 of 4 years doesn't constitute being resurrected from the pit of dispare the program had been in for a decade? Maybe YOU and the others you mention should be realists in your expectations for St Johns University... Have you built a program from scratch in a major conference? Just curious how long it takes and what it should look like after 5 years... 3 20 win seasons seems like a damn good foundation to build off of.

Being nationally ranked in December in the grand scheme isn't that great. Seton hall was nationally ranked and I don't see their fan base endorsing Willard. It's all about March, and Lavin is 7-18 overall and 2-9 in tournaments at SJU.

Look at any successful head coach that has taken over a dead program in a major conference. Show me one coach who had to create a program from absolute scratch in a major conference that has a .600 plus winning percentage within the first 5 years of rebuild. If you can't see what he has been able to accomplish than there is no need to debate this. Improvement every year. Would i like to see a better winning percentage in March, of course. However it's nice actually playing in mid March once again. I just don't think you and the others look at things realistically. Look at Coach Ks first 5 years at Duke, Wright at Nova etc etc... Mind you none of these guys took over a program that had to have a complete foundation built like Lavin had to. Anyway we'll see how the chips fall over the next couple weeks.

My main issue with the constant improvement is, what about next year? He certainly has NOT set up this program for stabilized success. Unless everything breaks right this off season, we could have many ugly years ahead. We should not be doing a full rebuild at this point in his tenure

 

[OLV72]

i took Lavin at his word and believed him that this Program would be resurrected and become a contender again in the BE Conference and nationally. He did not meet those goals as a Coach. He has had adequate time to build a Program and, hasn't.

Are you really that delusional? So him having us nationally ranked in 2 of 4 years on the bench and making the tourney in 2 of 4 years doesn't constitute being resurrected from the pit of dispare the program had been in for a decade? Maybe YOU and the others you mention should be realists in your expectations for St Johns University... Have you built a program from scratch in a major conference? Just curious how long it takes and what it should look like after 5 years... 3 20 win seasons seems like a damn good foundation to build off of.

Being nationally ranked in December in the grand scheme isn't that great. Seton hall was nationally ranked and I don't see their fan base endorsing Willard. It's all about March, and Lavin is 7-18 overall and 2-9 in tournaments at SJU.

Look at any successful head coach that has taken over a dead program in a major conference. Show me one coach who had to create a program from absolute scratch in a major conference that has a .600 plus winning percentage within the first 5 years of rebuild. If you can't see what he has been able to accomplish than there is no need to debate this. Improvement every year. Would i like to see a better winning percentage in March, of course. However it's nice actually playing in mid March once again. I just don't think you and the others look at things realistically. Look at Coach Ks first 5 years at Duke, Wright at Nova etc etc... Mind you none of these guys took over a program that had to have a complete foundation built like Lavin had to. Anyway we'll see how the chips fall over the next couple weeks.

My main issue with the constant improvement is, what about next year? He certainly has NOT set up this program for stabilized success. Unless everything breaks right this off season, we could have many ugly years ahead. We should not be doing a full rebuild at this point in his tenure

Many ugly years? It's certainly possible. It's why the buy out is a key part of the extension.

 

[room112]

I'm shocked at how many people have such low expectations for the program. Or how many people see "20 wins" and no farther.

We see the risk involved in replacing coaching staffs. We saw what SHU did when they were not satisfied with just making the dance. Two coaches later they have two NIT's in nine seasons. That's what their two "up and coming coaches" have produced - in addition to more off the court trouble than this program has ever had.

We also know that coaches do not bang down the door to come here. In the two previous searches it was becoming an embarrassment. In the last search NY talk radio picked this up and spoke loudly questioning why anyone would consider a "small school in Queens" as our former coach incorrectly referred to SJU.

Why are you so confident that five years later it will be any different?

I have little confidence that Miller or either Hurley would take this job over the many others that will be coming their way. I am not even confident that if they landed this job they would succeed.

Next year is a down year. Wright has had a losing season while retooling. The year after we should be back in good shape in the top half of the league again.

Extend him - load it with incentives and hopefully a buy out that the school can afford.

This is a very fair assessment and a bit scary to think about when considering a change

 

[room112]

Lavin's gotta go. We've seen what he is capable of and it's just not worth the trouble. Bring in a young gun and see if we can get lucky.

So we should gamble with the future of the program with Hurley, which one the Suny brother or RI brother who haven't recruited a top 50 kid or won anything to brag about! Or Archie Miller who would never come here, he may go to IU if it opens up. Cluess who I can't believe we are talking about. The Witchita state coach who is from SC and has no NYC connections and would never come here, who are you referring to? Yeah back to the Hurley brothers, we owe them for all those studs dad sent us, or because Coach K wouldn't give him a job, nor get him one. Boy his resume would of been great as a Duke ass coach, then K could of done like he did with other ass coaches get them a job

Why would a top 50 kid consider Buffalo or Rhode Island? Makes no sense

 

[TonyinFairfield]

I'm shocked at how many people have such low expectations for the program. Or how many people see "20 wins" and no farther.

Exactly, going to the NCAA Tourny once every four years is just fine with most SJU I guess, being the youngest team in year six is just fine with them also.
With that mentality we'll be with the former nyc great schools (Fordham, NYU.....), just a nobody.

Just sad that this is ok in the minds of most sju fans.

You are just flat out dead wrong. Just because I do not want to make a coaching change does not mean I am satisfied with making the tourney every four years, being the youngest team every six years or sinking to the level of a Fordham and an NYU. You, and the other Lavin haters, just continue to spout this BS. You continue to spout this propaganda so much that you have started believing your own garbage.

I want this program to get back to what it once was as much as you do. I'm just not convinced that changing coaches, especially with who's available, is the answer. If there is a coaching change, not you, nor anyone else, can guarantee that it will get better.

So we're gonna get back to where we should be by being the youngest team once again in his sixth year??? Tell me something Tony, if this idiot knew wtf he was doing, then how is it possible again to be the youngest team once again 4yrs after he was coach of the youngest team in the country (@ SJU). That not acceptable, whether you or others want to think so or not.
What happened to the recruiting last year? We heard nothing from him or staff until April then he goes out and gets Adonis and Keith, but either has played a single damn minute the whole year.
So now that we got 1 4star and 2 3 stars, it's clap clap clap lets extend him?
Lets look at his postseason at SJU with his recruits.
0-4 in the B.E Tourny, 0-1 in the NCAA, 1-2 in the NIT.

Oh hell yeah that's some real bang bup job there Lavin, @ sju you deserve a lifetime contract for that great job. Let sju do whatever they want, most sju here would be happy anyway so who cares.

You know what? I'm beginning to question whether you really want to see our program succeed or if you want the program to fail so you can continue with all your negativity.

Question all you want, but you're blind if you think that we'll ever do big things as long as this guy is here. Of course you are ok with that. You're to scared to take a chance

Ha! Nice try.

 

[sjc88]

Now that the season is over has the University given any indication of the evaluation process? I can't imagine he would go into the final year without an extension. That would kill recruiting and probably create problems with existing players. If they choose to replace him we will have zero hope next year but at least you move forward.

 

[mjmaherjr]

I voted yes with the assumption of a low buyout. If there was some monstrous buyout I wouldn't do it.

And just because I voted yes doesn't mean I'm happy because I'm pretty freaking pissed still about the current state of things

Basically I feel we would be completely screwed and actually are as of right now completely screwed depth wise for recruiting. I'm praying to God Lavin pulls a rabbit out of his hat and not only fills out the roster with some good players whether foreign,transfer,juco or martian. I don't care

I fully understand people who vote no though.

Our school has a history of making bad decisions and I'm not convinced yet they would make the right hire if given the opportunity

 

[Section3]

Just as an aside.. this is off topic.. My opinion.. I would have thought Lavin could have thrown a bouquet to Polee in his press conference . It would have been a classy thing to do..And, was surprised he made no mention.

Polee almost single handed broke our back in the game Friday night.. Especially, with the health issues Polee experienced this season and came back from.

Dwayne was his first major recruit and while he left, I thought Polee would have been an asset to SJU as a 4 year player. I do not know what happened but, was he pushed out of the Program for Jakarr and Moe? Might that have been a miscalculation by Steve? Especially, since Jakarr did not qualify to play that year...

A lot of guys left, did not qualify or transferred in lavin's time here.

Polee? He deserved some praise as a opposing player who played well against us.

Just a thought.

You're kidding, right? We lost the game, season done, careers of the 2 guys sitting next to him done andhe is going to send a shout out to Polee who elected to leave the program...complain about X&Os, rotations, roster balance et al...this is just piling on for no reason

 

[Ricky Smith]

Lavin's gotta go. We've seen what he is capable of and it's just not worth the trouble. Bring in a young gun and see if we can get lucky.

I'm not as adamant that Lavin's "gotta go." I think what makes this decision so hard is that there is a good chance, IMHO, that making a coaching change now might result in a worse outcome for us. It's all conjecture. Nobody can guarantee anything. The question is: Is it worth taking a chance on a new coach now? Personally, I don't think so.

Think of it this way. Renew Lavin now and the way it looks with Sheed and Obekpa most likely gone, we are at best 3 years away from another tournament. With the current talk about Lavin imagine how bad it will get after at least 2 losing/NIT seasons. It will be absolutely miserable to be a fan of this program. Get someone fresh in there and see what they can do.

I hear what you're saying, and I respect it. But, it's still a huge chance bringing in a new guy. Plus, you're assuming 2 losing/NIT seasons. Not sure I'm buying that. We bring in a fresh face who does absolutely nothing, and we are set back even further.

Life is about chances isn't it, you can't be scared and just accept avg all of your life

That's impressive!

Again, not in favor of a coaching change does not mean I accept average. That is a huge assumption on your part. And you know what they say about people who assume.

For what it's worth, I've taken plenty of chances in my life. Some have worked out wonderfully, some have been merely OK, and others have failed. I'm not scared to take chances. And for you to state that I am is disingenuous, at best. Please don't assume you know me. You don't.

Haters have gone from attacking Lavin to attacking those who support Lavin. I suspect it is because thay are starting to worry that he will be extended and they are in panic mode. I'm sure they are surprised at the results (so far) of this poll. Don't let it bother you, Tony.

Wouldn't surprise me if certain mods are trying to figure out how to vote more than once. My other concern is that Baldi and Real Fan have multiple screen names to match their multiple personalities thereby also compromising the tallying.

I don't think you can go 2 posts without mentioning me, very flattering.

 

[Section3]

Just as an aside.. this is off topic.. My opinion.. I would have thought Lavin could have thrown a bouquet to Polee in his press conference . It would have been a classy thing to do..And, was surprised he made no mention.

Polee almost single handed broke our back in the game Friday night.. Especially, with the health issues Polee experienced this season and came back from.

Dwayne was his first major recruit and while he left, I thought Polee would have been an asset to SJU as a 4 year player. I do not know what happened but, was he pushed out of the Program for Jakarr and Moe? Might that have been a miscalculation by Steve? Especially, since Jakarr did not qualify to play that year...

A lot of guys left, did not qualify or transferred in lavin's time here.

Polee? He deserved some praise as a opposing player who played well against us.

Just a thought.

Do you know how many kids have transferred from NC state since Mark took over as coach? More than we had leave, and look what they did to Nova! You are reaching

I don't think I am but, your entitled to express a differing view. Lavin promotes a touchy , feely type atmosphere that I think he likes to portray in public.. Polee, I think deserved a little accolade from Steve.

That was the main point I tried to make. NC State isn't my concern or interest.

A few years ago the Wear twins and Larry Drew transferred to Ucla, they were from Cali, do you think UNC fans wanted to see Roy Williams give praise to them? Polee went back home and I wouldn't want my coach heaping praise on a kid that left

Instead he put some of the blame on kids that left

BS..stop stretching the facts...there was no blame game played...

EDIT: My comments are based on assumption that you are referring to Lavin during post game press conference..If not, my apologies