Coaching Alternatives

[quote="Mike Zaun" post=334425]I think the nightmare scenario is if Mullin really does stay then he resists any staff changes or effort on the recruiting trail...and Cragg gives in allowing it..................[/quote]
_________

Assuming Coach Mullin's contract provides him with discretion to hire and fire his staff (as is the case with many D1 head coaching contracts) then what would you propose Mr. Cragg do to not "allow it" ?
 
Last edited:
[quote="otis" post=334426][quote="Mike Zaun" post=334425]I think the nightmare scenario is if Mullin really does stay then he resists any staff changes or effort on the recruiting trail...and Cragg gives in allowing it..................[/quote]
_________

Assuming Coach Mullin's contract provides him with discretion to hire and fire his staff (as is the case with many D1 head coaching contracts) then what would you propose Mr. Cragg do to not "allow it" ?[/quote]

Great question Otis. Seems like the only alternative would be to drop back and punt.
 
Well I didn't make the contract and I think that's stupid to have such a clause letting him essentially rule everything with zero experience. We all love Mullin the legend as a player and we all had high hopes. Unfortunately that doesn't translate to coaching. He knows more about basketball than me and so do the other coaches 100%. More than I ever will. But their approach is not working and will not work unless altered. If that means keeping Mullin 1 more year but forcing all assistants to change then do it. But if he's resistant to that, what do you think any competent CEO would do? We have a long suffering fanbase and we all know it would take a miracle to even be competitive next year and stay out of the basement. Why guarantee 2 bad years back to back when you only need to suffer 1? If it seems like Cragg and coaches are on different wave lengths then changes need to be made even if they aren't popular and are painful to do.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=334438]Well I didn't make the contract and I think that's stupid to have such a clause letting him essentially rule everything with zero experience. We all love Mullin the legend as a player and we all had high hopes. Unfortunately that doesn't translate to coaching. He knows more about basketball than me and so do the other coaches 100%. More than I ever will. But their approach is not working and will not work unless altered. If that means keeping Mullin 1 more year but forcing all assistants to change then do it. But if he's resistant to that, what do you think any competent CEO would do? We have a long suffering fanbase and we all know it would take a miracle to even be competitive next year and stay out of the basement. Why guarantee 2 bad years back to back when you only need to suffer 1? If it seems like Cragg and coaches are on different wave lengths then changes need to be made even if they aren't popular and are painful to do.[/quote]

In simplest terms, Chris will be back and doubt staff change will be radical. If Matt moves on, one would expect an experienced recruiter would come aboard. How much influence Cragg will have on the latter remains to be seen. Clearly the school is not in a position to eat two years of Mullin salary as noted by many.

I too don’t expect the team next season to have the promise this one had, but roster additions and churn should occur relatively soon to better prognosticate 19-20 results. If team implodes, my opinion is Cragg would be in a better position to make a head coaching change and eat less money than now. Chris could also just choose to walk at that point to avoid a messy situation.

As my “former” friend Moose recently reminded me, the coaching market is hot right now with many vacancies and SJU is not exactly in the top tier of desired destinations. I would suspect if coming season sours Cragg will be in a better position to do his back channel research and maximize chances of landing a competent successor before next season’s coaching carousel spins into high gear again. For now, patience works for me over coming year.
 
Recruiting better players would mitigate the need for “coaching alternatives”. That said, I see Figueroa and Simon the key players to a veteran group next year. Wish I could say the same about Ponds, who will likely be gone, or the mystery of where Heron’s game disappeared to. 1,000 jump shots a day this summer for Simon. Ball handling drills for Figueroa.
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=334443][quote="Mike Zaun" post=334438]Well I didn't make the contract and I think that's stupid to have such a clause letting him essentially rule everything with zero experience. We all love Mullin the legend as a player and we all had high hopes. Unfortunately that doesn't translate to coaching. He knows more about basketball than me and so do the other coaches 100%. More than I ever will. But their approach is not working and will not work unless altered. If that means keeping Mullin 1 more year but forcing all assistants to change then do it. But if he's resistant to that, what do you think any competent CEO would do? We have a long suffering fanbase and we all know it would take a miracle to even be competitive next year and stay out of the basement. Why guarantee 2 bad years back to back when you only need to suffer 1? If it seems like Cragg and coaches are on different wave lengths then changes need to be made even if they aren't popular and are painful to do.[/quote]

In simplest terms, Chris will be back and doubt staff change will be radical. If Matt moves on, one would expect an experienced recruiter would come aboard. How much influence Cragg will have on the latter remains to be seen. Clearly the school is not in a position to eat two years of Mullin salary as noted by many.

I too don’t expect the team next season to have the promise this one had, but roster additions and churn should occur relatively soon to better prognosticate 19-20 results. If team implodes, my opinion is Cragg would be in a better position to make a head coaching change and eat less money than now. Chris could also just choose to walk at that point to avoid a messy situation.

As my “former” friend Moose recently reminded me, the coaching market is hot right now with many vacancies and SJU is not exactly in the top tier of desired destinations. I would suspect if coming season sours Cragg will be in a better position to do his back channel research and maximize chances of landing a competent successor before next season’s coaching carousel spins into high gear again. For now, patience works for me over coming year.[/quote]

The only thing I disagree with is why this year is hot but next year's vacancies won't be.

I actually think this year is tame next year could see more. All ACC and Big 12 and Big10 schools appear to not be letting anyone go. Big East as well. How likely is that for next year?

Next year could be even more competitive for finding a good coach.
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=334443][quote="Mike Zaun" post=334438]Well I didn't make the contract and I think that's stupid to have such a clause letting him essentially rule everything with zero experience. We all love Mullin the legend as a player and we all had high hopes. Unfortunately that doesn't translate to coaching. He knows more about basketball than me and so do the other coaches 100%. More than I ever will. But their approach is not working and will not work unless altered. If that means keeping Mullin 1 more year but forcing all assistants to change then do it. But if he's resistant to that, what do you think any competent CEO would do? We have a long suffering fanbase and we all know it would take a miracle to even be competitive next year and stay out of the basement. Why guarantee 2 bad years back to back when you only need to suffer 1? If it seems like Cragg and coaches are on different wave lengths then changes need to be made even if they aren't popular and are painful to do.[/quote]

In simplest terms, Chris will be back and doubt staff change will be radical. If Matt moves on, one would expect an experienced recruiter would come aboard. How much influence Cragg will have on the latter remains to be seen. Clearly the school is not in a position to eat two years of Mullin salary as noted by many.

I too don’t expect the team next season to have the promise this one had, but roster additions and churn should occur relatively soon to better prognosticate 19-20 results. If team implodes, my opinion is Cragg would be in a better position to make a head coaching change and eat less money than now. Chris could also just choose to walk at that point to avoid a messy situation.

As my “former” friend Moose recently reminded me, the coaching market is hot right now with many vacancies and SJU is not exactly in the top tier of desired destinations. I would suspect if coming season sours Cragg will be in a better position to do his back channel research and maximize chances of landing a competent successor before next season’s coaching carousel spins into high gear again. For now, patience works for me over coming year.[/quote]

I’m all out of patience. This experiment has run its course...
 
If there were no "sure thing" hires like Oats and Hurley this offseason, I'd have more patience and hope at least the assistants were tweaked. IMO you strike when the iron is hot even if that requires uncomfortable choices. One of my professors used to say, "when you leave here, you don't wait for the job to come to you...you go where the job is even if you have to move a bit". In this case, if you see "your guy" out there you go get him. You don't wait until someone else snatches them up. If both coaches end up elsewhere, who are we going after assuming things go south again next year (logical assumption)? The drop after those 2 is pretty steep IMO. Not buying that we can't work something out and pay less than what we owe to buy out and move on. But I don't know. Don't see why we have to ensure 2 more years of basement dwelling most likely. We can't shy away from being more aggressive when we need to be. Sitting back and waiting year after year with the same results does not do any good and only tarnishes our reputation further. If the same staff comes back next year top to bottom, it's a sign that our program has been taken hostage IMO.
 
Last edited:
[quote="fordham96" post=334447][quote="Paultzman" post=334443][quote="Mike Zaun" post=334438]Well I didn't make the contract and I think that's stupid to have such a clause letting him essentially rule everything with zero experience. We all love Mullin the legend as a player and we all had high hopes. Unfortunately that doesn't translate to coaching. He knows more about basketball than me and so do the other coaches 100%. More than I ever will. But their approach is not working and will not work unless altered. If that means keeping Mullin 1 more year but forcing all assistants to change then do it. But if he's resistant to that, what do you think any competent CEO would do? We have a long suffering fanbase and we all know it would take a miracle to even be competitive next year and stay out of the basement. Why guarantee 2 bad years back to back when you only need to suffer 1? If it seems like Cragg and coaches are on different wave lengths then changes need to be made even if they aren't popular and are painful to do.[/quote]

In simplest terms, Chris will be back and doubt staff change will be radical. If Matt moves on, one would expect an experienced recruiter would come aboard. How much influence Cragg will have on the latter remains to be seen. Clearly the school is not in a position to eat two years of Mullin salary as noted by many.

I too don’t expect the team next season to have the promise this one had, but roster additions and churn should occur relatively soon to better prognosticate 19-20 results. If team implodes, my opinion is Cragg would be in a better position to make a head coaching change and eat less money than now. Chris could also just choose to walk at that point to avoid a messy situation.

As my “former” friend Moose recently reminded me, the coaching market is hot right now with many vacancies and SJU is not exactly in the top tier of desired destinations. I would suspect if coming season sours Cragg will be in a better position to do his back channel research and maximize chances of landing a competent successor before next season’s coaching carousel spins into high gear again. For now, patience works for me over coming year.[/quote]

The only thing I disagree with is why this year is hot but next year's vacancies won't be.

I actually think this year is tame next year could see more. All ACC and Big 12 and Big10 schools appear to not be letting anyone go. Big East as well. How likely is that for next year?

Next year could be even more competitive for finding a good coach.[/quote]
Fair point, but perhaps he could have a guy in the wings via strong past relationship or I am making a lousy point. :)
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=334449]If there were no "sure thing" hires like Oats and Hurley this offseason, I'd have more patience and hope at least the assistants were tweaked. IMO you strike when the iron is hot even if that requires uncomfortable choices. One of my professors used to say, "when you leave here, you don't wait for the job to come to you...you go where the job is even if you have to move a bit". In this case, if you see "your guy" out there you go get him. You don't wait until someone else snatches them up. If both coaches end up elsewhere, who are we going after assuming things go south again next year (logical assumption)? The drop after those 2 is pretty steep IMO. Not buying that we can't work something out and pay less than what we owe to buy out and move on. But I don't know. Don't see why we have to ensure 2 more years of basement dwelling most likely. We can't shy away from being more aggressive when we need to be. Sitting back and waiting year after year with the same results does not do any good and only tarnishes our reputation further. If the same staff comes back next year top to bottom, it's a sign that our program has been taken hostage IMO.[/quote]
Mike if the President is not willing to make a change and eat two years salary, what would you suggest? I personally would prefer a change, but am a realist. Short of CM walking, nothing happens this year.
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=334452]
Fair point, but perhaps he could have a guy in the wings via strong past relationship or I am making a lousy point. :)[/quote]

A big welcome to Coach K! We'll be waiting for you!
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=334453][quote="Mike Zaun" post=334449]If there were no "sure thing" hires like Oats and Hurley this offseason, I'd have more patience and hope at least the assistants were tweaked. IMO you strike when the iron is hot even if that requires uncomfortable choices. One of my professors used to say, "when you leave here, you don't wait for the job to come to you...you go where the job is even if you have to move a bit". In this case, if you see "your guy" out there you go get him. You don't wait until someone else snatches them up. If both coaches end up elsewhere, who are we going after assuming things go south again next year (logical assumption)? The drop after those 2 is pretty steep IMO. Not buying that we can't work something out and pay less than what we owe to buy out and move on. But I don't know. Don't see why we have to ensure 2 more years of basement dwelling most likely. We can't shy away from being more aggressive when we need to be. Sitting back and waiting year after year with the same results does not do any good and only tarnishes our reputation further. If the same staff comes back next year top to bottom, it's a sign that our program has been taken hostage IMO.[/quote]
Mike if the President is not willing to make a change and eat two years salary, what would you suggest? I personally would prefer a change, but am a realist. Short of CM walking, nothing happens this year.[/quote]

A change should happen because I just don't see any upside next season. The ideal scenario would be Heron, Simon, and Figueroa are all back. Then, I could see them be good next year. But I'm realistic and just think that is not going to happen. Let's say both Heron and Simon leave. The SJU roster will in that case be horrific and lack depth again. So we are talking about another losing season and just delaying the inevitable.
 
[quote="DoodyNY33" post=334456][quote="Paultzman" post=334453][quote="Mike Zaun" post=334449]If there were no "sure thing" hires like Oats and Hurley this offseason, I'd have more patience and hope at least the assistants were tweaked. IMO you strike when the iron is hot even if that requires uncomfortable choices. One of my professors used to say, "when you leave here, you don't wait for the job to come to you...you go where the job is even if you have to move a bit". In this case, if you see "your guy" out there you go get him. You don't wait until someone else snatches them up. If both coaches end up elsewhere, who are we going after assuming things go south again next year (logical assumption)? The drop after those 2 is pretty steep IMO. Not buying that we can't work something out and pay less than what we owe to buy out and move on. But I don't know. Don't see why we have to ensure 2 more years of basement dwelling most likely. We can't shy away from being more aggressive when we need to be. Sitting back and waiting year after year with the same results does not do any good and only tarnishes our reputation further. If the same staff comes back next year top to bottom, it's a sign that our program has been taken hostage IMO.[/quote]
Mike if the President is not willing to make a change and eat two years salary, what would you suggest? I personally would prefer a change, but am a realist. Short of CM walking, nothing happens this year.[/quote]

A change should happen because I just don't see any upside next season. The ideal scenario would be Heron, Simon, and Figueroa are all back. Then, I could see them be good next year. But I'm realistic and just think that is not going to happen. Let's say both Heron and Simon leave. The SJU roster will in that case be horrific and lack depth again. So we are talking about another losing season and just delaying the inevitable.[/quote]
Can’t argue with the “should” part of what you said in that scenario. The “will” part of equation does no seem in cards with a very fiscally conservative “Prez” and some alums of influence who feel CM did a good job getting team to play in game. We can come up with a thousand reasons for change now, but imo it will not happen unless Chris chooses to walk.
 
Since it doesn't look like we can an immediate change in coaches, let's hope Mullin honestly evaluates his performance and make appropriate changes to players, staff and style of play. And it would not hurt if he got out and actively recruited.
 
Last edited:
If it's true he was given full reign with the contract, then it goes to show why our program is so often in shambles. Though we all love the guy, you don't give anyone full reign for a job in which they have literally zero experience. It boxes us into a corner we cannot get out of. Just not sure why it feels like a hostage situation. A head coach is supposed to realize what is not working and make changes accordingly. Essentially the question is: who is running the show? Cragg or Mullin? If it's the latter, then we are actively making stupid decisions. It's going to be brutal to have to sit through a lame duck year and then a rebuilding year when we could've potentially avoided both and condensed them into 1 year if our donors came up big. Can't you negotiate a buyout? Like giving $2 mil for the 2 remaining years instead of $4 and calling it a day? Or is that not possible?
 
I know CM is pretty clueless when it comes to running a program, and coaching, but he undoubtedly knows the game of basketball. He has to know with all the writing on the wall for possible departures that the team is going to bad next year, and that there probably isn't a light at the end of the tunnel coming anytime soon, barring a miracle.

I just don't get why he actually would want to commit himself to two more probable years of losing other than just collecting a paycheck. I'm sure an NBA team, like the Warriors, would give him some sort of front office gig if he left. Granted he probably wouldn't be making the same amount of money as he does being a head coach here, but he'd have no headaches and way less responsibilities.

Him resigning, going back to the NBA, claiming he brought the program back in the right direction, keeping his legacy with the school in tact, and us getting a new better coach is the ultimate dream scenario that I hope unfolds. With the recent luck of this program though, I think it's probably a long shot.
 
Last edited:
[quote="otis" post=334426][quote="Mike Zaun" post=334425]I think the nightmare scenario is if Mullin really does stay then he resists any staff changes or effort on the recruiting trail...and Cragg gives in allowing it..................[/quote]
_________

Assuming Coach Mullin's contract provides him with discretion to hire and fire his staff (as is the case with many D1 head coaching contracts) then what would you propose Mr. Cragg do to not "allow it" ?[/quote]

He presumably has at least one tool in his toolkit that every administrator should have. The ability to terminate..

Would he exercise that in this case? Probably not now. But it should be an option.
 
There are so many ifs right now including the school not eating the money owed CM. I think we all have to be patient and see what happens to Matt and players and than look at the response by CM. Maybe we hire a great recruiter with some players he has relationships with and maybe Simon and some others hang around.

If that scenario does not transpire than I think it would be up to Cragg to stay 100% dialed in and be all over every decision CM makes. Cragg could make the job hell for CM and perhaps he then leaves on his own. No matter what, we all have to sit back and wait for a little bit to see what happens next, something that fans really do not enjoy. Hope every thing works out for CM because changing coaches every 4 years leafs to programs not making the tournament for a long time. That should sound familiar to us all.
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=334460][quote="DoodyNY33" post=334456][quote="Paultzman" post=334453][quote="Mike Zaun" post=334449]If there were no "sure thing" hires like Oats and Hurley this offseason, I'd have more patience and hope at least the assistants were tweaked. IMO you strike when the iron is hot even if that requires uncomfortable choices. One of my professors used to say, "when you leave here, you don't wait for the job to come to you...you go where the job is even if you have to move a bit". In this case, if you see "your guy" out there you go get him. You don't wait until someone else snatches them up. If both coaches end up elsewhere, who are we going after assuming things go south again next year (logical assumption)? The drop after those 2 is pretty steep IMO. Not buying that we can't work something out and pay less than what we owe to buy out and move on. But I don't know. Don't see why we have to ensure 2 more years of basement dwelling most likely. We can't shy away from being more aggressive when we need to be. Sitting back and waiting year after year with the same results does not do any good and only tarnishes our reputation further. If the same staff comes back next year top to bottom, it's a sign that our program has been taken hostage IMO.[/quote]
Mike if the President is not willing to make a change and eat two years salary, what would you suggest? I personally would prefer a change, but am a realist. Short of CM walking, nothing happens this year.[/quote]

A change should happen because I just don't see any upside next season. The ideal scenario would be Heron, Simon, and Figueroa are all back. Then, I could see them be good next year. But I'm realistic and just think that is not going to happen. Let's say both Heron and Simon leave. The SJU roster will in that case be horrific and lack depth again. So we are talking about another losing season and just delaying the inevitable.[/quote]
Can’t argue with the “should” part of what you said in that scenario. The “will” part of equation does no seem in cards with a very fiscally conservative “Prez” and some alums of influence who feel CM did a good job getting team to play in game. We can come up with a thousand reasons for change now, but imo it will not happen unless Chris chooses to walk.[/quote]

Ouch, this is all tough to hear. How could some watch the final month of our season and think we did a good job? I'm generally an optimist, but I see no reason for optimism with the current staff. I also have less patience than you do.

It also sounds like changes to CM's assistants likely won't be mandated. Yikes.

I regularly talk to 8 people who follow St. John's basketball (none of them post on Redmen), and 7 of them have questioned Mullin's coaching during our collapse. I did not prompt any of that, as I wanted to give CM until the end of the season. That didn't happen to nearly the same extent during Lavin's final year.

There will never be a perfect hiring year, but I think this year is one of the better ones. I doubt we'd get our first choice, but 3rd or 4th choice which would still be pretty good.

If CM returns, especially with the same assistants (not counting Matt), he has to know how ugly things could get.
 
Last edited:
These decisions are above my pay grade, but IF Matt leaves—there goes our only recruiter at a time of potential ‘major’ roster turnover.
I’m not being dramatic but that smacks of very poor management to me that should have consequences.
As a result, I do not see how the AD cannot have major leverage over CM to at least pressure him to make necessary ‘major’ changes to the Staff.
We shall see.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top