Coaching Alternatives
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ronm
Well-known member
[quote="Room112" post=335362]Id be curious to see how fans of this team rank the St John's job. Do you consider it even a Top 50 coaching job?[/quote]
That is a good question. An argument can be made that most ACC, Big 10 & SEC jobs are more desirable than SJ. Throw in any number of mid majors and we may not make the top 50. Two decades of under performing does not help.
That is a good question. An argument can be made that most ACC, Big 10 & SEC jobs are more desirable than SJ. Throw in any number of mid majors and we may not make the top 50. Two decades of under performing does not help.
WillyDilly
Member
[quote="Room112" post=335362]Id be curious to see how fans of this team rank the St John's job. Do you consider it even a Top 50 coaching job?[/quote]
Out of all of the colleges, I would put us somewhere in the 75-100 range.
Out of all of the colleges, I would put us somewhere in the 75-100 range.
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L J S A
Well-known member
[quote="ron " post=335373][quote="Room112" post=335362]Id be curious to see how fans of this team rank the St John's job. Do you consider it even a Top 50 coaching job?[/quote]
That is a good question. An argument can be made that most ACC, Big 10 & SEC jobs are more desirable than SJ. Throw in any number of mid majors and we may not make the top 50. Two decades of under performing does not help.[/quote]
Depends on the criteria. Lots of schools probably have greater facilities and better funding. But with the right staff, I think the potential for sustained success here is probably top 50. That said, I haven't scanned a list of D1 teams, so I can't precisely say who I'd put above and below us.
That is a good question. An argument can be made that most ACC, Big 10 & SEC jobs are more desirable than SJ. Throw in any number of mid majors and we may not make the top 50. Two decades of under performing does not help.[/quote]
Depends on the criteria. Lots of schools probably have greater facilities and better funding. But with the right staff, I think the potential for sustained success here is probably top 50. That said, I haven't scanned a list of D1 teams, so I can't precisely say who I'd put above and below us.
If I look at the Kenpom and Sagarin Top 50 - probably not a better job than a majority of those schools. 50-75 - probably a fit. Especially when you consider the money the school is willing to pay it's HC, the market, the exposure, etc.
That is just based upon what the job looks like now after 15+ years of a lot of losing. Reality is SJU has likely made this far harder than it needs to be and the profile of the program, the job, etc. has suffered as a result.
Irrespective of what you think about them as coaches and their performance here, the last two hires who have now been at the helm between them for nearly a decade were (1) out of coaching for 7 years, and (2) had never coached a day in their life. It doesn't get a whole lot more swing for the fences than that, and SJU doesn't have to be a swing for the fences job.
Providence in 13 years under Tim Welsh and Keno Davis - 2 NCAA Tournaments. First 7 years with Cooley - 5.
Seton Hall in 16 years under Blaney, Amaker, Orr, and Gonzalez - 3 NCAA Tournaments. 4 in a row now under Willard.
The platform for those programs didn't change. In Providence's case they just hired a grand slam, and in Seton Hall's case they stuck by the right guy patiently. These are similarly situated in Providence's case and worse in Seton Hall's case jobs than SJU.
Even Georgetown, which I think many would consider far superior to any of these 3 programs, hit a lull at the end of Thompson / through Esherick and is in another rut right now.
So much of it is about the coach/hire. Does Xavier have to be such an elite job? Probably not, but they've made it into one with consistency of hires over many years. Does VCU have to be such a great job? Definitely not, but they've done similar to Xavier and have made the NCAA 10 times in the last 13 years.
SJU has not consistently hired well since Carnesecca retired. It's a good job that has been made to look like it isn't as good, more challenging than it likely is, etc.
That is just based upon what the job looks like now after 15+ years of a lot of losing. Reality is SJU has likely made this far harder than it needs to be and the profile of the program, the job, etc. has suffered as a result.
Irrespective of what you think about them as coaches and their performance here, the last two hires who have now been at the helm between them for nearly a decade were (1) out of coaching for 7 years, and (2) had never coached a day in their life. It doesn't get a whole lot more swing for the fences than that, and SJU doesn't have to be a swing for the fences job.
Providence in 13 years under Tim Welsh and Keno Davis - 2 NCAA Tournaments. First 7 years with Cooley - 5.
Seton Hall in 16 years under Blaney, Amaker, Orr, and Gonzalez - 3 NCAA Tournaments. 4 in a row now under Willard.
The platform for those programs didn't change. In Providence's case they just hired a grand slam, and in Seton Hall's case they stuck by the right guy patiently. These are similarly situated in Providence's case and worse in Seton Hall's case jobs than SJU.
Even Georgetown, which I think many would consider far superior to any of these 3 programs, hit a lull at the end of Thompson / through Esherick and is in another rut right now.
So much of it is about the coach/hire. Does Xavier have to be such an elite job? Probably not, but they've made it into one with consistency of hires over many years. Does VCU have to be such a great job? Definitely not, but they've done similar to Xavier and have made the NCAA 10 times in the last 13 years.
SJU has not consistently hired well since Carnesecca retired. It's a good job that has been made to look like it isn't as good, more challenging than it likely is, etc.
JohnnyFever
Active member
I'd say we are top 50 or so. However, it takes a special person to come into a mess and have the willpower to turn things around. A lot of people seem to think we are just bad because of bad luck or because our program is cursed or something. Even though it seems true sometimes, we have really just made awful hires constantly. We have actively made mistakes...self-inflicted ones. We are a 4 cylinder car running on 2 cylinders. If we were ever running on all cylinders with a great coach who could develop skills, get some continuity, and recruit well with a good balance of bigs and guards, it will work. The recipe is known...we just haven't followed it or it hasn't worked out. All it really takes is a few years of winning and good recruiting to get back on the map. Get some good momentum and keep it. That's what PC, SHU, etc. have done. PC has no business being better than us with much less to offer and less resources.
[quote="Eric Williamson" post=335374][quote="Room112" post=335362]Id be curious to see how fans of this team rank the St John's job. Do you consider it even a Top 50 coaching job?[/quote]
Out of all of the colleges, I would put us somewhere in the 75-100 range.[/quote]
True and so sad. We used to be in the 10 - 15 range IMO
Out of all of the colleges, I would put us somewhere in the 75-100 range.[/quote]
True and so sad. We used to be in the 10 - 15 range IMO
[quote="Eric Williamson" post=335374][quote="Room112" post=335362]Id be curious to see how fans of this team rank the St John's job. Do you consider it even a Top 50 coaching job?[/quote]
Out of all of the colleges, I would put us somewhere in the 75-100 range.[/quote]
I think that’s fair. Outside of basketball, we have to consider that NYC has an income tax which is exceedingly rare and NYS has a high state income tax which means more now under Trump than it did a few years ago. The cost of living is higher as well. That translates into an offer that needs to be 8-12% higher than states like Florida and Tennessee.
Out of all of the colleges, I would put us somewhere in the 75-100 range.[/quote]
I think that’s fair. Outside of basketball, we have to consider that NYC has an income tax which is exceedingly rare and NYS has a high state income tax which means more now under Trump than it did a few years ago. The cost of living is higher as well. That translates into an offer that needs to be 8-12% higher than states like Florida and Tennessee.
[quote="Room112" post=335362]Id be curious to see how fans of this team rank the St John's job. Do you consider it even a Top 50 coaching job?[/quote]
St. John's is unique in my opinion being the only basketball school that calls NYC and MSG its home. There's some coaches that would probably put the job on the bottom of their list, but i would think that this is has got to be high on the list of other coaches. Maybe I'm wrong as our last 7 coaches haven't worked out for one reason or another,
St. John's is unique in my opinion being the only basketball school that calls NYC and MSG its home. There's some coaches that would probably put the job on the bottom of their list, but i would think that this is has got to be high on the list of other coaches. Maybe I'm wrong as our last 7 coaches haven't worked out for one reason or another,
[quote="Knight" post=335398]A smart new coach could easily leverage MSG and NYC to make this a great job.[/quote]
And what would stop that same smart coach from leveraging his success here into getting a better job?
The second someone other than Mullin wins here they will be the hottest coach in the country.
And what would stop that same smart coach from leveraging his success here into getting a better job?
The second someone other than Mullin wins here they will be the hottest coach in the country.
[quote="Marillac" post=335404][quote="Knight" post=335398]A smart new coach could easily leverage MSG and NYC to make this a great job.[/quote]
And what would stop that same smart coach from leveraging his success here into getting a better job?
The second someone other than Mullin wins here they will be the hottest coach in the country.[/quote]
That's a reason to keep an ineffective coach?
And what would stop that same smart coach from leveraging his success here into getting a better job?
The second someone other than Mullin wins here they will be the hottest coach in the country.[/quote]
That's a reason to keep an ineffective coach?
[quote="DoodyNY33" post=335405][quote="Marillac" post=335404][quote="Knight" post=335398]A smart new coach could easily leverage MSG and NYC to make this a great job.[/quote]
And what would stop that same smart coach from leveraging his success here into getting a better job?
The second someone other than Mullin wins here they will be the hottest coach in the country.[/quote]
That's a reason to keep an ineffective coach?[/quote]
Exactly, so we should be afraid a coach has so much success that he may leave for another job therefore we must shoot for mediocrity or only hire coaches who we know we stay here no matter what....wow I've heard it all...
And what would stop that same smart coach from leveraging his success here into getting a better job?
The second someone other than Mullin wins here they will be the hottest coach in the country.[/quote]
That's a reason to keep an ineffective coach?[/quote]
Exactly, so we should be afraid a coach has so much success that he may leave for another job therefore we must shoot for mediocrity or only hire coaches who we know we stay here no matter what....wow I've heard it all...
I personally was a fan of Mullin's hire on day one, in large part because I felt he wouldn't be poached. Turns out the downside to that is you also can't fire them.
Now I just want someone who wins even if they leave after 5 years. We've seen Marquette, Butler and Xavier lose their coaches to bigger schools. All have rebounded. They have built winning cultures that are bigger than the coaches themselves.
Now I just want someone who wins even if they leave after 5 years. We've seen Marquette, Butler and Xavier lose their coaches to bigger schools. All have rebounded. They have built winning cultures that are bigger than the coaches themselves.
[quote="fordham96" post=335408][quote="DoodyNY33" post=335405][quote="Marillac" post=335404][quote="Knight" post=335398]A smart new coach could easily leverage MSG and NYC to make this a great job.[/quote]
And what would stop that same smart coach from leveraging his success here into getting a better job?
The second someone other than Mullin wins here they will be the hottest coach in the country.[/quote]
That's a reason to keep an ineffective coach?[/quote]
Exactly, so we should be afraid a coach has so much success that he may leave for another job therefore we must shoot for mediocrity or only hire coaches who we know we stay here no matter what....wow I've heard it all...[/quote]
How many incorrect inferences can you stack in a post to build a straw man?
How in the world does someone get from a statement that a smart coach would use any success here as a trampoline to a better job to Me thinking we should hire only mediocre candidates. Did you ask me if I would accept a coach achieving brief success and the leaving? Nah, let’s just assume and then tack on a few wild inferences so we can beat the crap out of an argument that doesn’t exist.
And what would stop that same smart coach from leveraging his success here into getting a better job?
The second someone other than Mullin wins here they will be the hottest coach in the country.[/quote]
That's a reason to keep an ineffective coach?[/quote]
Exactly, so we should be afraid a coach has so much success that he may leave for another job therefore we must shoot for mediocrity or only hire coaches who we know we stay here no matter what....wow I've heard it all...[/quote]
How many incorrect inferences can you stack in a post to build a straw man?
How in the world does someone get from a statement that a smart coach would use any success here as a trampoline to a better job to Me thinking we should hire only mediocre candidates. Did you ask me if I would accept a coach achieving brief success and the leaving? Nah, let’s just assume and then tack on a few wild inferences so we can beat the crap out of an argument that doesn’t exist.
Redmen88
Well-known member
[quote="Marillac" post=335404][quote="Knight" post=335398]A smart new coach could easily leverage MSG and NYC to make this a great job.[/quote]
And what would stop that same smart coach from leveraging his success here into getting a better job?
The second someone other than Mullin wins here they will be the hottest coach in the country.[/quote]
We have to continually look to improve the program. That may mean we hire an excellent coach and they eventually leave. We then have to do this over and over so that our school becomes the destination rather than the launching pad. What was Gonzaga before Mark Few. The right coach may stay or he may leave, but either way we can't look for a coach who is our forever coach, we just need to find our next great coach. There are many schools around the country that are now "good jobs' because of continued success rather than the destination. NY has a lot to offer. Why wouldn't NY be better than Tallahassee or Washington, DC or Charlottesville.
It is about the culture and we need to change ours now to a winning tradition. We need to purge ourselves of the last 20 years of ineptitude and 3-4 excellent seasons would be a huge start. Look at what Tony Bennett did at UVA . We need to sink $ into the program and put a plan in place to make SJ a great program again. I feel as if we hired the right AD and are moving in the right direction. We just need to help CM succeed or move on very soon.
And what would stop that same smart coach from leveraging his success here into getting a better job?
The second someone other than Mullin wins here they will be the hottest coach in the country.[/quote]
We have to continually look to improve the program. That may mean we hire an excellent coach and they eventually leave. We then have to do this over and over so that our school becomes the destination rather than the launching pad. What was Gonzaga before Mark Few. The right coach may stay or he may leave, but either way we can't look for a coach who is our forever coach, we just need to find our next great coach. There are many schools around the country that are now "good jobs' because of continued success rather than the destination. NY has a lot to offer. Why wouldn't NY be better than Tallahassee or Washington, DC or Charlottesville.
It is about the culture and we need to change ours now to a winning tradition. We need to purge ourselves of the last 20 years of ineptitude and 3-4 excellent seasons would be a huge start. Look at what Tony Bennett did at UVA . We need to sink $ into the program and put a plan in place to make SJ a great program again. I feel as if we hired the right AD and are moving in the right direction. We just need to help CM succeed or move on very soon.
WillyDilly
Member
[quote="ipd200" post=335400][quote="Room112" post=335362]Id be curious to see how fans of this team rank the St John's job. Do you consider it even a Top 50 coaching job?[/quote]
St. John's is unique in my opinion being the only basketball school that calls NYC and MSG its home. There's some coaches that would probably put the job on the bottom of their list, but i would think that this is has got to be high on the list of other coaches. Maybe I'm wrong as our last 7 coaches haven't worked out for one reason or another,[/quote]
I realize that I am not the norm, but I have never viewed MSG and NYC as these great recruiting tools. I think the sooner we strop trying to sell MSG and the city to recruits, the better off we will be.
St. John's is unique in my opinion being the only basketball school that calls NYC and MSG its home. There's some coaches that would probably put the job on the bottom of their list, but i would think that this is has got to be high on the list of other coaches. Maybe I'm wrong as our last 7 coaches haven't worked out for one reason or another,[/quote]
I realize that I am not the norm, but I have never viewed MSG and NYC as these great recruiting tools. I think the sooner we strop trying to sell MSG and the city to recruits, the better off we will be.
[quote="Redmen88" post=335419] What was Gonzaga before Mark Few. [/quote]
An Elite Eight team.
But seriously what Few has done is remarkable even if he didn't exactly inherit the Titanic.
And about the context thing, just in case it comes up again, I'm just trying to keep the threads short and the natives humored.
An Elite Eight team.
But seriously what Few has done is remarkable even if he didn't exactly inherit the Titanic.
And about the context thing, just in case it comes up again, I'm just trying to keep the threads short and the natives humored.
[quote="Eric Williamson" post=335422][quote="ipd200" post=335400][quote="Room112" post=335362]Id be curious to see how fans of this team rank the St John's job. Do you consider it even a Top 50 coaching job?[/quote]
St. John's is unique in my opinion being the only basketball school that calls NYC and MSG its home. There's some coaches that would probably put the job on the bottom of their list, but i would think that this is has got to be high on the list of other coaches. Maybe I'm wrong as our last 7 coaches haven't worked out for one reason or another,[/quote]
I realize that I am not the norm, but I have never viewed MSG and NYC as these great recruiting tools. I think the sooner we strop trying to sell MSG and the city to recruits, the better off we will be.[/quote]
They arent anymore. Maybe in 1995 but not now. With social media, these kids are already stars and have built up brands for themselves. They don't need the NYC media to do that for them. Just look at Ja Morant. 522K followers on Instagram. Ponds has 87K.
St. John's is unique in my opinion being the only basketball school that calls NYC and MSG its home. There's some coaches that would probably put the job on the bottom of their list, but i would think that this is has got to be high on the list of other coaches. Maybe I'm wrong as our last 7 coaches haven't worked out for one reason or another,[/quote]
I realize that I am not the norm, but I have never viewed MSG and NYC as these great recruiting tools. I think the sooner we strop trying to sell MSG and the city to recruits, the better off we will be.[/quote]
They arent anymore. Maybe in 1995 but not now. With social media, these kids are already stars and have built up brands for themselves. They don't need the NYC media to do that for them. Just look at Ja Morant. 522K followers on Instagram. Ponds has 87K.