Catholics A Minority

[beast of the east]

 Divinity has never been proven...ever. So you might as well be talking about Alchemy turning stone into gold. Salvation is just part of the same doctrine. We do not have free will, because god supposedly interjects in our lives. If you believe prayer works, then free will contradicts it. A god involved in your personal life interferes, thus you don't have free will believing in an all powerful god. You believe god is omniscient and already knows everything you will do in your lifetime from conception to death. How is that free will? I also hear many Christians say "Well god put me in this situation purposely" or "god has a reason for this happening to me". That implies that free will does NOT exist.

 

Every person is free to believe what they want. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Jain, Buddist or Athiest, we all have an expiration date. What really matters is the "goodness" of humans towards each other regardless of spiritual beliefs. Religions were established to foster that goodness.....not to compete with each others' doctrines. That Catholics are a minority in "Catholic" colleges means nothing in today's academic world. The founders of these schools were Catholic clergy but just as Protestant Duke and Harvard were founded by and for Protestants originally, today's religious and cultural realities make most private colleges "non-denominational" as a very small percentage of young people actually practice their religion anymore and inter-faith marriages are diluting all religious affiliation for the married couples. Traditional religions are dying in the Christian world while the eastern religions and Muslims have remained closer to their original tenets.

 

Religion came about as a way to control the masses. It's one big giant marketing scheme that still keeps people ignorant to this day after thousands of years. They weren't established to compete with other doctrines? Actually, that's all many of them do is hate other denominations and compete. Islamists and Christians fight, Islamists and Jews fight, Christians and Jews fight, Mormoms and Christians fight, you can even throw Scientology in there. They all fight for new members and slander the other religions. They weren't established for goodness they were established for power and wealth. The Pope used to be the most important person in many countries in Europe. He was essentially a dictator. Yes plenty of good comes from religion but at an awful price. Religion is all about power and money like many other things.

 

Really? Since Christianity was born during control of Judea by the Roman empire, which was pagan, how did the Roman empire create Christianity? Or was it Jewish Pharisees, who rejected Christ? Actually, you are partially correct, although you should research your facts before writing them. Conflicts among religions are part of the human condition, and its unfortunate. Consdiering our current environment, there is also an active movement of atheists attacking organized religions. Surely you are aware of well funded athiest movements to sue small towns who have littl financial means to defend themselves to remove icons considered to have religious significance from public property. Most recently that was a WWI memorial in the shape of a cross in a small town in Rhode Island, which has stood without protest in a small Rhode Island town for nearly 100 years.

Consider that the apostles accumulated no wealth, and some like MAtthew gave up considerable wealth, and all except John were martyred (John was exiled to Asia) your argument that Christianity was founded in order to gain power is absurd.

Mormons ARE Christians, and have worked hard to become a mainstream religion over the past century. There are 40 million worldwide, and their relationship with Catholics, particularly in Utah is warm. When the CAtholic Cathedral in Salt Lake city badly needed a $10 million renovation, the Catholic fundraising effort fell short. The Mormon church stepped in and funded the difference. The Catholic CAthedral has a magnificent choir, and some of the children who sing in the choir are Mormon.

It's funny that you view the relations between religions so negatively. I don't recall reading anything our Pope has said to slander Judaism or Protestantism. Of course, every religion is entitled to believe that their faith is the best way to worship God. Pope John Paul II established diplomatic relations with Israel, publicly admonished any evangelization efforts of Jews, and invted and visited with leaders of every mainstream religion in the world. As a child in Poland, he befriended many Jewish children, and some of his best lifelong friends were Jewish.

On the subject of charity, in the United States, religous on average donated more than 7 times that of people who identified themselves as atheist ($1500 vs $200 in 2006). Statistically, 92% of Protestants, 91% onf Catholics, 91% of Jews, and 89% of other religions give charitably. Compafratively, only 66% of atheists give chariably. It can be assuredly said that the religious people you roundly catigate have defrayed the cost of your St. John's education by their charitable giving to the school. So, when one of the comments on this thread were that you seemed ingrateful to be attending a Catholic University, and speaking negatively about the CAtholic faith has considerbale validity.

Perhaps one of the reasons that Catholic students are attending SJU these days is that it just isn't very Catholic anymore. I worship at a Catholic Church in close proximity to the University. The parish was the first to build a new church in the Brooklyn diocese in more than 25 years (we did not have a church since its foudning in 1948). Despite increasing capacity from 350 to 650, the pews are filled each Sunday for each mass, with many young gamilies and children. So there is hope I guess for the future of St. Johns.

I am winding down my posts on this thread, and the factual dogmatic principles I've posted here, along with other researched facts, are not intended to convince you, who obviously cannot and will not be convinced, but perhaps others who may be more open minded.

If you are an inquisitive reader, I'd suggest for our or others the books "More than a Carpenter", by Josh McDowell, and "Who moved the Stone", by Frank Morrison.

More than a Carpenter is an easy read, even easier as an audiobook. There are literally 10's of millions of copies in print. It's a simple explanation of Christian faith. One of the subject McDowell covers is one you referenced in your last post - the date that the Gospels were written. As you are aware three of the Gospels are synoptic, with large portions of each very similar to the others. Mark's Gospel is likely the earliest, and although atheists claim they were written hundreds of years after the death of Christ, over time earlier and earlier manusciprts have been discovered. In the past 30 years, a piece of Papyrus containing words from scripture has been carbon dated to 52 AD, less than 20 years after the death of Christ. If verifiable, this would make MArk's Gospel a historical document, since its content would easily have been rejected by any eye witness to the events around Jerusalem during Jesus' 3 year public ministry. Again, interesting reading.

"Who moved the Stone" by Frank Morrison was written on an interesting premise. An attorney by trade, Morrison attempted to write a legal case on how the Resurrection of Christ could not have possibly occurred. During his in depth research, he became convinced that he was wrong, and instead his book instead concluded that overwhelmingly the facts indicated that the resurrection did indeed occur.

I am winding down my posting here, but grateful to St. John's for participating in my faith formation which is far from complete. I will continue to be an advocate, despite loud protests by atheists, that St. John's retrace its steps and return to its fouding mission of educating young Catholics who desire to be educated in the Catholic faith.

 

[LINY89]

 My theological summation of this thread is as followed: I don't know whose arrogance is more repugnant Joe3 for pretending to be the voice of his generation or Beast for pretending to know who gets through the Pearly Gates. There's a place in Hell for both you.... maybe. 

 

I think it's really funny that you can attach arrogance to commentary on a a thread by someone who is trying to patiently explain Catholic doctrine, when the purpose of the thread was to discuss the secularization of univeristies that were founded for a religious mission. It's astounding you can cast negativity on the explanation of cathlic doctrine, which some of the negative posters on here chose this thread to reject.

For many alumni, the fact that St. John's was a CAtholic University was an important part of our decision to attend the university and the continued decline in Catholic enrollment is disconcerting. As you are likely aware, FH and the BOT is very aware of this fact, and are actively taking steps to try to reverse this trend. IMO it is not enough, and we will see how it unfolds.

 

I still respect you and everyone else here as part of the SJU family, and good for your generation for embracing the Catholic mission in years past at SJU. The thing is, as your generation gets older and older, the ideals go with it...they begin to die out. You can't try to force feed old ideas to a new progressive more intellectual generation. The bus has simply left years ago...colleges are not going back to the days when people went to church every Sunday because the culture and population is changing. I understand your nostalgia, but despite the common belief that "back in my day everything was better", some things need to happen i.e. secularization. It's time to pass the baton to the new generation...we are approaching that age where it's our turn at bat now. I was at the reason rally in DC and an estimated 20,000 yes twenty thousand people showed up...overwhelmingly consisting of people under 30. By the way that was in torrential downpours and cold muggy weather. Look around on the internet...it seems that the norm is secularism already.

 

[LINY89]

 Divinity has never been proven...ever. So you might as well be talking about Alchemy turning stone into gold. Salvation is just part of the same doctrine. We do not have free will, because god supposedly interjects in our lives. If you believe prayer works, then free will contradicts it. A god involved in your personal life interferes, thus you don't have free will believing in an all powerful god. You believe god is omniscient and already knows everything you will do in your lifetime from conception to death. How is that free will? I also hear many Christians say "Well god put me in this situation purposely" or "god has a reason for this happening to me". That implies that free will does NOT exist.

 

Every person is free to believe what they want. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Jain, Buddist or Athiest, we all have an expiration date. What really matters is the "goodness" of humans towards each other regardless of spiritual beliefs. Religions were established to foster that goodness.....not to compete with each others' doctrines. That Catholics are a minority in "Catholic" colleges means nothing in today's academic world. The founders of these schools were Catholic clergy but just as Protestant Duke and Harvard were founded by and for Protestants originally, today's religious and cultural realities make most private colleges "non-denominational" as a very small percentage of young people actually practice their religion anymore and inter-faith marriages are diluting all religious affiliation for the married couples. Traditional religions are dying in the Christian world while the eastern religions and Muslims have remained closer to their original tenets.

 

Religion came about as a way to control the masses. It's one big giant marketing scheme that still keeps people ignorant to this day after thousands of years. They weren't established to compete with other doctrines? Actually, that's all many of them do is hate other denominations and compete. Islamists and Christians fight, Islamists and Jews fight, Christians and Jews fight, Mormoms and Christians fight, you can even throw Scientology in there. They all fight for new members and slander the other religions. They weren't established for goodness they were established for power and wealth. The Pope used to be the most important person in many countries in Europe. He was essentially a dictator. Yes plenty of good comes from religion but at an awful price. Religion is all about power and money like many other things.

 

Really? Since Christianity was born during control of Judea by the Roman empire, which was pagan, how did the Roman empire create Christianity? Or was it Jewish Pharisees, who rejected Christ? Actually, you are partially correct, although you should research your facts before writing them. Conflicts among religions are part of the human condition, and its unfortunate. Consdiering our current environment, there is also an active movement of atheists attacking organized religions. Surely you are aware of well funded athiest movements to sue small towns who have littl financial means to defend themselves to remove icons considered to have religious significance from public property. Most recently that was a WWI memorial in the shape of a cross in a small town in Rhode Island, which has stood without protest in a small Rhode Island town for nearly 100 years.

Consider that the apostles accumulated no wealth, and some like MAtthew gave up considerable wealth, and all except John were martyred (John was exiled to Asia) your argument that Christianity was founded in order to gain power is absurd.

Mormons ARE Christians, and have worked hard to become a mainstream religion over the past century. There are 40 million worldwide, and their relationship with Catholics, particularly in Utah is warm. When the CAtholic Cathedral in Salt Lake city badly needed a $10 million renovation, the Catholic fundraising effort fell short. The Mormon church stepped in and funded the difference. The Catholic CAthedral has a magnificent choir, and some of the children who sing in the choir are Mormon.

It's funny that you view the relations between religions so negatively. I don't recall reading anything our Pope has said to slander Judaism or Protestantism. Of course, every religion is entitled to believe that their faith is the best way to worship God. Pope John Paul II established diplomatic relations with Israel, publicly admonished any evangelization efforts of Jews, and invted and visited with leaders of every mainstream religion in the world. As a child in Poland, he befriended many Jewish children, and some of his best lifelong friends were Jewish.

On the subject of charity, in the United States, religous on average donated more than 7 times that of people who identified themselves as atheist ($1500 vs $200 in 2006). Statistically, 92% of Protestants, 91% onf Catholics, 91% of Jews, and 89% of other religions give charitably. Compafratively, only 66% of atheists give chariably. It can be assuredly said that the religious people you roundly catigate have defrayed the cost of your St. John's education by their charitable giving to the school. So, when one of the comments on this thread were that you seemed ingrateful to be attending a Catholic University, and speaking negatively about the CAtholic faith has considerbale validity.

Perhaps one of the reasons that Catholic students are attending SJU these days is that it just isn't very Catholic anymore. I worship at a Catholic Church in close proximity to the University. The parish was the first to build a new church in the Brooklyn diocese in more than 25 years (we did not have a church since its foudning in 1948). Despite increasing capacity from 350 to 650, the pews are filled each Sunday for each mass, with many young gamilies and children. So there is hope I guess for the future of St. Johns.

I am winding down my posts on this thread, and the factual dogmatic principles I've posted here, along with other researched facts, are not intended to convince you, who obviously cannot and will not be convinced, but perhaps others who may be more open minded.

If you are an inquisitive reader, I'd suggest for our or others the books "More than a Carpenter", by Josh McDowell, and "Who moved the Stone", by Frank Morrison.

More than a Carpenter is an easy read, even easier as an audiobook. There are literally 10's of millions of copies in print. It's a simple explanation of Christian faith. One of the subject McDowell covers is one you referenced in your last post - the date that the Gospels were written. As you are aware three of the Gospels are synoptic, with large portions of each very similar to the others. Mark's Gospel is likely the earliest, and although atheists claim they were written hundreds of years after the death of Christ, over time earlier and earlier manusciprts have been discovered. In the past 30 years, a piece of Papyrus containing words from scripture has been carbon dated to 52 AD, less than 20 years after the death of Christ. If verifiable, this would make MArk's Gospel a historical document, since its content would easily have been rejected by any eye witness to the events around Jerusalem during Jesus' 3 year public ministry. Again, interesting reading.

"Who moved the Stone" by Frank Morrison was written on an interesting premise. An attorney by trade, Morrison attempted to write a legal case on how the Resurrection of Christ could not have possibly occurred. During his in depth research, he became convinced that he was wrong, and instead his book instead concluded that overwhelmingly the facts indicated that the resurrection did indeed occur.

I am winding down my posting here, but grateful to St. John's for participating in my faith formation which is far from complete. I will continue to be an advocate, despite loud protests by atheists, that St. John's retrace its steps and return to its fouding mission of educating young Catholics who desire to be educated in the Catholic faith.

 

First off, that lawyer claiming the resurrection was factual clearly had terrible "evidence", because isn't that something that would have been HUGE news? Christians still dominate currently in this country...wouldn't that be the first thing they would raise like a trophy? All religious people have to go off are some ancient writings translated billions of times over thousands of years, edited, and written at a time when stoning your neighbor for working on Sunday was the norm. I mean come on. At some point you have to know it's absurd.

"On the subject of charity, in the United States, religous on average donated more than 7 times that of people who identified themselves as atheist ($1500 vs $200 in 2006)"

That's interesting, because the term "atheist" is a near cuss word to this day in mainstream society. Atheists don't claim to be atheists for fear of rejection much in the same way that gays don't always admit they are gay. Because of this, I guarantee you the poll was invalid. Secondly, churches have MUCH more power and MUCH more money and resources to do these kinds of things, so it's not a level playing field. Thirdly, people of no faith do good things because we genuinely love people and see people suffering. People of faith do good things to kiss god's you know what. There is a massive difference. If someone gave you a cupcake because a guy was holding a gun to his head forcing him to give it to you, is that the same as someone voluntarily giving it to you out of the goodness of their heart? There is NOTHING people of faith can do morally that non-believers cannot. That can't be stressed enough. The charity arguments are totally irrelevant as a result.

I can assure you the young kids you see at church don't want to be there. Same with the adolescents and the twentysomethings if they are with their family. That used to be me. Many families FORCE you to go to church...it's not an option until you are an adult. By then though, many people are brainwashed anyway. Do you really think people would go to church if their parents and the rest of their family didn't pressure them to? It's like claiming a kid would voluntarily eat spinach instead of a cake.

 

[Class of 72]

 Divinity has never been proven...ever. So you might as well be talking about Alchemy turning stone into gold. Salvation is just part of the same doctrine. We do not have free will, because god supposedly interjects in our lives. If you believe prayer works, then free will contradicts it. A god involved in your personal life interferes, thus you don't have free will believing in an all powerful god. You believe god is omniscient and already knows everything you will do in your lifetime from conception to death. How is that free will? I also hear many Christians say "Well god put me in this situation purposely" or "god has a reason for this happening to me". That implies that free will does NOT exist.

 

Every person is free to believe what they want. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Jain, Buddist or Athiest, we all have an expiration date. What really matters is the "goodness" of humans towards each other regardless of spiritual beliefs. Religions were established to foster that goodness.....not to compete with each others' doctrines. That Catholics are a minority in "Catholic" colleges means nothing in today's academic world. The founders of these schools were Catholic clergy but just as Protestant Duke and Harvard were founded by and for Protestants originally, today's religious and cultural realities make most private colleges "non-denominational" as a very small percentage of young people actually practice their religion anymore and inter-faith marriages are diluting all religious affiliation for the married couples. Traditional religions are dying in the Christian world while the eastern religions and Muslims have remained closer to their original tenets.

 

Religion came about as a way to control the masses. It's one big giant marketing scheme that still keeps people ignorant to this day after thousands of years. They weren't established to compete with other doctrines? Actually, that's all many of them do is hate other denominations and compete. Islamists and Christians fight, Islamists and Jews fight, Christians and Jews fight, Mormoms and Christians fight, you can even throw Scientology in there. They all fight for new members and slander the other religions. They weren't established for goodness they were established for power and wealth. The Pope used to be the most important person in many countries in Europe. He was essentially a dictator. Yes plenty of good comes from religion but at an awful price. Religion is all about power and money like many other things.

 

Unfortunately, your response and viewpoint as expressed above addresses religions only from a contemporary (past 2,000 years) perspective. Spirituality and religious experience dates back thousands of years before Christ or Muhammad.
There were no "masses" to control 5,000 years ago. There was no money 5,000 years ago. Most societies were oblivious to other societies and were very isolated culturally. Yet, the early philosophers and mystics all shared a common belief that good must overcome evil. From this common belief came about the 10 commandments, early Hindu teachings and other expressions of faith to help mortal man live in an ever evolving word of good and evil. From early pre-history it was recognized that man is capable of both. Of course, today we know that some are genetically wired to do more evil than good and vis-versa. That Freudian aspect does not negate the importance of religion or spirituality as a component of one's beliefs.
Yes, many leaders in the religious world have abused their leadership roles, from the Popes to the Mullahs, but the value of the basic teachings of the 10 commandments is undeniable that even atheists adhere to them if they are "good" human beings.

 

[austour]

 Divinity has never been proven...ever. So you might as well be talking about Alchemy turning stone into gold. Salvation is just part of the same doctrine. We do not have free will, because god supposedly interjects in our lives. If you believe prayer works, then free will contradicts it. A god involved in your personal life interferes, thus you don't have free will believing in an all powerful god. You believe god is omniscient and already knows everything you will do in your lifetime from conception to death. How is that free will? I also hear many Christians say "Well god put me in this situation purposely" or "god has a reason for this happening to me". That implies that free will does NOT exist.

 

Every person is free to believe what they want. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Jain, Buddist or Athiest, we all have an expiration date. What really matters is the "goodness" of humans towards each other regardless of spiritual beliefs. Religions were established to foster that goodness.....not to compete with each others' doctrines. That Catholics are a minority in "Catholic" colleges means nothing in today's academic world. The founders of these schools were Catholic clergy but just as Protestant Duke and Harvard were founded by and for Protestants originally, today's religious and cultural realities make most private colleges "non-denominational" as a very small percentage of young people actually practice their religion anymore and inter-faith marriages are diluting all religious affiliation for the married couples. Traditional religions are dying in the Christian world while the eastern religions and Muslims have remained closer to their original tenets.

 

Religion came about as a way to control the masses. It's one big giant marketing scheme that still keeps people ignorant to this day after thousands of years. They weren't established to compete with other doctrines? Actually, that's all many of them do is hate other denominations and compete. Islamists and Christians fight, Islamists and Jews fight, Christians and Jews fight, Mormoms and Christians fight, you can even throw Scientology in there. They all fight for new members and slander the other religions. They weren't established for goodness they were established for power and wealth. The Pope used to be the most important person in many countries in Europe. He was essentially a dictator. Yes plenty of good comes from religion but at an awful price. Religion is all about power and money like many other things.

 

Unfortunately, your response and viewpoint as expressed above addresses religions only from a contemporary (past 2,000 years) perspective. Spirituality and religious experience dates back thousands of years before Christ or Muhammad.
There were no "masses" to control 5,000 years ago. There was no money 5,000 years ago. Most societies were oblivious to other societies and were very isolated culturally. Yet, the early philosophers and mystics all shared a common belief that good must overcome evil. From this common belief came about the 10 commandments, early Hindu teachings and other expressions of faith to help mortal man live in an ever evolving word of good and evil. From early pre-history it was recognized that man is capable of both. Of course, today we know that some are genetically wired to do more evil than good and vis-versa. That Freudian aspect does not negate the importance of religion or spirituality as a component of one's beliefs.
Yes, many leaders in the religious world have abused their leadership roles, from the Popes to the Mullahs, but the value of the basic teachings of the 10 commandments is undeniable that even atheists adhere to them if they are "good" human beings.

 

I prefer to think of it as even people of faith have enough common sense to develop a basic moral compass even if the good book hadn't told them to but we're both saying the same thing.

My personal motto, Gods are just to complex to not have been created by man. ; )  

 

[beast of the east]

 Divinity has never been proven...ever. So you might as well be talking about Alchemy turning stone into gold. Salvation is just part of the same doctrine. We do not have free will, because god supposedly interjects in our lives. If you believe prayer works, then free will contradicts it. A god involved in your personal life interferes, thus you don't have free will believing in an all powerful god. You believe god is omniscient and already knows everything you will do in your lifetime from conception to death. How is that free will? I also hear many Christians say "Well god put me in this situation purposely" or "god has a reason for this happening to me". That implies that free will does NOT exist.

 

Every person is free to believe what they want. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Jain, Buddist or Athiest, we all have an expiration date. What really matters is the "goodness" of humans towards each other regardless of spiritual beliefs. Religions were established to foster that goodness.....not to compete with each others' doctrines. That Catholics are a minority in "Catholic" colleges means nothing in today's academic world. The founders of these schools were Catholic clergy but just as Protestant Duke and Harvard were founded by and for Protestants originally, today's religious and cultural realities make most private colleges "non-denominational" as a very small percentage of young people actually practice their religion anymore and inter-faith marriages are diluting all religious affiliation for the married couples. Traditional religions are dying in the Christian world while the eastern religions and Muslims have remained closer to their original tenets.

 

Religion came about as a way to control the masses. It's one big giant marketing scheme that still keeps people ignorant to this day after thousands of years. They weren't established to compete with other doctrines? Actually, that's all many of them do is hate other denominations and compete. Islamists and Christians fight, Islamists and Jews fight, Christians and Jews fight, Mormoms and Christians fight, you can even throw Scientology in there. They all fight for new members and slander the other religions. They weren't established for goodness they were established for power and wealth. The Pope used to be the most important person in many countries in Europe. He was essentially a dictator. Yes plenty of good comes from religion but at an awful price. Religion is all about power and money like many other things.

 

Really? Since Christianity was born during control of Judea by the Roman empire, which was pagan, how did the Roman empire create Christianity? Or was it Jewish Pharisees, who rejected Christ? Actually, you are partially correct, although you should research your facts before writing them. Conflicts among religions are part of the human condition, and its unfortunate. Consdiering our current environment, there is also an active movement of atheists attacking organized religions. Surely you are aware of well funded athiest movements to sue small towns who have littl financial means to defend themselves to remove icons considered to have religious significance from public property. Most recently that was a WWI memorial in the shape of a cross in a small town in Rhode Island, which has stood without protest in a small Rhode Island town for nearly 100 years.

Consider that the apostles accumulated no wealth, and some like MAtthew gave up considerable wealth, and all except John were martyred (John was exiled to Asia) your argument that Christianity was founded in order to gain power is absurd.

Mormons ARE Christians, and have worked hard to become a mainstream religion over the past century. There are 40 million worldwide, and their relationship with Catholics, particularly in Utah is warm. When the CAtholic Cathedral in Salt Lake city badly needed a $10 million renovation, the Catholic fundraising effort fell short. The Mormon church stepped in and funded the difference. The Catholic CAthedral has a magnificent choir, and some of the children who sing in the choir are Mormon.

It's funny that you view the relations between religions so negatively. I don't recall reading anything our Pope has said to slander Judaism or Protestantism. Of course, every religion is entitled to believe that their faith is the best way to worship God. Pope John Paul II established diplomatic relations with Israel, publicly admonished any evangelization efforts of Jews, and invted and visited with leaders of every mainstream religion in the world. As a child in Poland, he befriended many Jewish children, and some of his best lifelong friends were Jewish.

On the subject of charity, in the United States, religous on average donated more than 7 times that of people who identified themselves as atheist ($1500 vs $200 in 2006). Statistically, 92% of Protestants, 91% onf Catholics, 91% of Jews, and 89% of other religions give charitably. Compafratively, only 66% of atheists give chariably. It can be assuredly said that the religious people you roundly catigate have defrayed the cost of your St. John's education by their charitable giving to the school. So, when one of the comments on this thread were that you seemed ingrateful to be attending a Catholic University, and speaking negatively about the CAtholic faith has considerbale validity.

Perhaps one of the reasons that Catholic students are attending SJU these days is that it just isn't very Catholic anymore. I worship at a Catholic Church in close proximity to the University. The parish was the first to build a new church in the Brooklyn diocese in more than 25 years (we did not have a church since its foudning in 1948). Despite increasing capacity from 350 to 650, the pews are filled each Sunday for each mass, with many young gamilies and children. So there is hope I guess for the future of St. Johns.

I am winding down my posts on this thread, and the factual dogmatic principles I've posted here, along with other researched facts, are not intended to convince you, who obviously cannot and will not be convinced, but perhaps others who may be more open minded.

If you are an inquisitive reader, I'd suggest for our or others the books "More than a Carpenter", by Josh McDowell, and "Who moved the Stone", by Frank Morrison.

More than a Carpenter is an easy read, even easier as an audiobook. There are literally 10's of millions of copies in print. It's a simple explanation of Christian faith. One of the subject McDowell covers is one you referenced in your last post - the date that the Gospels were written. As you are aware three of the Gospels are synoptic, with large portions of each very similar to the others. Mark's Gospel is likely the earliest, and although atheists claim they were written hundreds of years after the death of Christ, over time earlier and earlier manusciprts have been discovered. In the past 30 years, a piece of Papyrus containing words from scripture has been carbon dated to 52 AD, less than 20 years after the death of Christ. If verifiable, this would make MArk's Gospel a historical document, since its content would easily have been rejected by any eye witness to the events around Jerusalem during Jesus' 3 year public ministry. Again, interesting reading.

"Who moved the Stone" by Frank Morrison was written on an interesting premise. An attorney by trade, Morrison attempted to write a legal case on how the Resurrection of Christ could not have possibly occurred. During his in depth research, he became convinced that he was wrong, and instead his book instead concluded that overwhelmingly the facts indicated that the resurrection did indeed occur.

I am winding down my posting here, but grateful to St. John's for participating in my faith formation which is far from complete. I will continue to be an advocate, despite loud protests by atheists, that St. John's retrace its steps and return to its fouding mission of educating young Catholics who desire to be educated in the Catholic faith.

 

First off, that lawyer claiming the resurrection was factual clearly had terrible "evidence", because isn't that something that would have been HUGE news? Christians still dominate currently in this country...wouldn't that be the first thing they would raise like a trophy? All religious people have to go off are some ancient writings translated billions of times over thousands of years, edited, and written at a time when stoning your neighbor for working on Sunday was the norm. I mean come on. At some point you have to know it's absurd.

"On the subject of charity, in the United States, religous on average donated more than 7 times that of people who identified themselves as atheist ($1500 vs $200 in 2006)"

That's interesting, because the term "atheist" is a near cuss word to this day in mainstream society. Atheists don't claim to be atheists for fear of rejection much in the same way that gays don't always admit they are gay. Because of this, I guarantee you the poll was invalid. Secondly, churches have MUCH more power and MUCH more money and resources to do these kinds of things, so it's not a level playing field. Thirdly, people of no faith do good things because we genuinely love people and see people suffering. People of faith do good things to kiss god's you know what. There is a massive difference. If someone gave you a cupcake because a guy was holding a gun to his head forcing him to give it to you, is that the same as someone voluntarily giving it to you out of the goodness of their heart? There is NOTHING people of faith can do morally that non-believers cannot. That can't be stressed enough. The charity arguments are totally irrelevant as a result.

I can assure you the young kids you see at church don't want to be there. Same with the adolescents and the twentysomethings if they are with their family. That used to be me. Many families FORCE you to go to church...it's not an option until you are an adult. By then though, many people are brainwashed anyway. Do you really think people would go to church if their parents and the rest of their family didn't pressure them to? It's like claiming a kid would voluntarily eat spinach instead of a cake.

 

1) Read the book before commenting on the thesis.
2)

 

[LINY89]

 Divinity has never been proven...ever. So you might as well be talking about Alchemy turning stone into gold. Salvation is just part of the same doctrine. We do not have free will, because god supposedly interjects in our lives. If you believe prayer works, then free will contradicts it. A god involved in your personal life interferes, thus you don't have free will believing in an all powerful god. You believe god is omniscient and already knows everything you will do in your lifetime from conception to death. How is that free will? I also hear many Christians say "Well god put me in this situation purposely" or "god has a reason for this happening to me". That implies that free will does NOT exist.

 

Every person is free to believe what they want. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Jain, Buddist or Athiest, we all have an expiration date. What really matters is the "goodness" of humans towards each other regardless of spiritual beliefs. Religions were established to foster that goodness.....not to compete with each others' doctrines. That Catholics are a minority in "Catholic" colleges means nothing in today's academic world. The founders of these schools were Catholic clergy but just as Protestant Duke and Harvard were founded by and for Protestants originally, today's religious and cultural realities make most private colleges "non-denominational" as a very small percentage of young people actually practice their religion anymore and inter-faith marriages are diluting all religious affiliation for the married couples. Traditional religions are dying in the Christian world while the eastern religions and Muslims have remained closer to their original tenets.

 

Religion came about as a way to control the masses. It's one big giant marketing scheme that still keeps people ignorant to this day after thousands of years. They weren't established to compete with other doctrines? Actually, that's all many of them do is hate other denominations and compete. Islamists and Christians fight, Islamists and Jews fight, Christians and Jews fight, Mormoms and Christians fight, you can even throw Scientology in there. They all fight for new members and slander the other religions. They weren't established for goodness they were established for power and wealth. The Pope used to be the most important person in many countries in Europe. He was essentially a dictator. Yes plenty of good comes from religion but at an awful price. Religion is all about power and money like many other things.

 

Unfortunately, your response and viewpoint as expressed above addresses religions only from a contemporary (past 2,000 years) perspective. Spirituality and religious experience dates back thousands of years before Christ or Muhammad.
There were no "masses" to control 5,000 years ago. There was no money 5,000 years ago. Most societies were oblivious to other societies and were very isolated culturally. Yet, the early philosophers and mystics all shared a common belief that good must overcome evil. From this common belief came about the 10 commandments, early Hindu teachings and other expressions of faith to help mortal man live in an ever evolving word of good and evil. From early pre-history it was recognized that man is capable of both. Of course, today we know that some are genetically wired to do more evil than good and vis-versa. That Freudian aspect does not negate the importance of religion or spirituality as a component of one's beliefs.
Yes, many leaders in the religious world have abused their leadership roles, from the Popes to the Mullahs, but the value of the basic teachings of the 10 commandments is undeniable that even atheists adhere to them if they are "good" human beings.

 

You are making this too easy. You do realize that in the 10 commandments, about half of them are about a jealous god ordering you to not put any gods before him, to worship him, etc. Only a handful of those commandments are laws today. What does that say about a god if our country can come up with better laws than him? Also, those 10 commandments are a condensed version coming from hundreds of commandments. Someone along the way figured those were the top 10 and cut it down. But isn't that religion for you? Thousands of translations, tampering, thousands of interpretations, errors, contradicting statements, and immorality in the bible, yet people still believe it's true. Why can't we just agree that it's a significant book written by ancient scribes thousands of years ago to make sense of the world around them and tell legends at the time? It's obviously BS if you try to make it literal.

 

[LINY89]

 Divinity has never been proven...ever. So you might as well be talking about Alchemy turning stone into gold. Salvation is just part of the same doctrine. We do not have free will, because god supposedly interjects in our lives. If you believe prayer works, then free will contradicts it. A god involved in your personal life interferes, thus you don't have free will believing in an all powerful god. You believe god is omniscient and already knows everything you will do in your lifetime from conception to death. How is that free will? I also hear many Christians say "Well god put me in this situation purposely" or "god has a reason for this happening to me". That implies that free will does NOT exist.

 

Every person is free to believe what they want. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Jain, Buddist or Athiest, we all have an expiration date. What really matters is the "goodness" of humans towards each other regardless of spiritual beliefs. Religions were established to foster that goodness.....not to compete with each others' doctrines. That Catholics are a minority in "Catholic" colleges means nothing in today's academic world. The founders of these schools were Catholic clergy but just as Protestant Duke and Harvard were founded by and for Protestants originally, today's religious and cultural realities make most private colleges "non-denominational" as a very small percentage of young people actually practice their religion anymore and inter-faith marriages are diluting all religious affiliation for the married couples. Traditional religions are dying in the Christian world while the eastern religions and Muslims have remained closer to their original tenets.

 

Religion came about as a way to control the masses. It's one big giant marketing scheme that still keeps people ignorant to this day after thousands of years. They weren't established to compete with other doctrines? Actually, that's all many of them do is hate other denominations and compete. Islamists and Christians fight, Islamists and Jews fight, Christians and Jews fight, Mormoms and Christians fight, you can even throw Scientology in there. They all fight for new members and slander the other religions. They weren't established for goodness they were established for power and wealth. The Pope used to be the most important person in many countries in Europe. He was essentially a dictator. Yes plenty of good comes from religion but at an awful price. Religion is all about power and money like many other things.

 

Really? Since Christianity was born during control of Judea by the Roman empire, which was pagan, how did the Roman empire create Christianity? Or was it Jewish Pharisees, who rejected Christ? Actually, you are partially correct, although you should research your facts before writing them. Conflicts among religions are part of the human condition, and its unfortunate. Consdiering our current environment, there is also an active movement of atheists attacking organized religions. Surely you are aware of well funded athiest movements to sue small towns who have littl financial means to defend themselves to remove icons considered to have religious significance from public property. Most recently that was a WWI memorial in the shape of a cross in a small town in Rhode Island, which has stood without protest in a small Rhode Island town for nearly 100 years.

Consider that the apostles accumulated no wealth, and some like MAtthew gave up considerable wealth, and all except John were martyred (John was exiled to Asia) your argument that Christianity was founded in order to gain power is absurd.

Mormons ARE Christians, and have worked hard to become a mainstream religion over the past century. There are 40 million worldwide, and their relationship with Catholics, particularly in Utah is warm. When the CAtholic Cathedral in Salt Lake city badly needed a $10 million renovation, the Catholic fundraising effort fell short. The Mormon church stepped in and funded the difference. The Catholic CAthedral has a magnificent choir, and some of the children who sing in the choir are Mormon.

It's funny that you view the relations between religions so negatively. I don't recall reading anything our Pope has said to slander Judaism or Protestantism. Of course, every religion is entitled to believe that their faith is the best way to worship God. Pope John Paul II established diplomatic relations with Israel, publicly admonished any evangelization efforts of Jews, and invted and visited with leaders of every mainstream religion in the world. As a child in Poland, he befriended many Jewish children, and some of his best lifelong friends were Jewish.

On the subject of charity, in the United States, religous on average donated more than 7 times that of people who identified themselves as atheist ($1500 vs $200 in 2006). Statistically, 92% of Protestants, 91% onf Catholics, 91% of Jews, and 89% of other religions give charitably. Compafratively, only 66% of atheists give chariably. It can be assuredly said that the religious people you roundly catigate have defrayed the cost of your St. John's education by their charitable giving to the school. So, when one of the comments on this thread were that you seemed ingrateful to be attending a Catholic University, and speaking negatively about the CAtholic faith has considerbale validity.

Perhaps one of the reasons that Catholic students are attending SJU these days is that it just isn't very Catholic anymore. I worship at a Catholic Church in close proximity to the University. The parish was the first to build a new church in the Brooklyn diocese in more than 25 years (we did not have a church since its foudning in 1948). Despite increasing capacity from 350 to 650, the pews are filled each Sunday for each mass, with many young gamilies and children. So there is hope I guess for the future of St. Johns.

I am winding down my posts on this thread, and the factual dogmatic principles I've posted here, along with other researched facts, are not intended to convince you, who obviously cannot and will not be convinced, but perhaps others who may be more open minded.

If you are an inquisitive reader, I'd suggest for our or others the books "More than a Carpenter", by Josh McDowell, and "Who moved the Stone", by Frank Morrison.

More than a Carpenter is an easy read, even easier as an audiobook. There are literally 10's of millions of copies in print. It's a simple explanation of Christian faith. One of the subject McDowell covers is one you referenced in your last post - the date that the Gospels were written. As you are aware three of the Gospels are synoptic, with large portions of each very similar to the others. Mark's Gospel is likely the earliest, and although atheists claim they were written hundreds of years after the death of Christ, over time earlier and earlier manusciprts have been discovered. In the past 30 years, a piece of Papyrus containing words from scripture has been carbon dated to 52 AD, less than 20 years after the death of Christ. If verifiable, this would make MArk's Gospel a historical document, since its content would easily have been rejected by any eye witness to the events around Jerusalem during Jesus' 3 year public ministry. Again, interesting reading.

"Who moved the Stone" by Frank Morrison was written on an interesting premise. An attorney by trade, Morrison attempted to write a legal case on how the Resurrection of Christ could not have possibly occurred. During his in depth research, he became convinced that he was wrong, and instead his book instead concluded that overwhelmingly the facts indicated that the resurrection did indeed occur.

I am winding down my posting here, but grateful to St. John's for participating in my faith formation which is far from complete. I will continue to be an advocate, despite loud protests by atheists, that St. John's retrace its steps and return to its fouding mission of educating young Catholics who desire to be educated in the Catholic faith.

 

First off, that lawyer claiming the resurrection was factual clearly had terrible "evidence", because isn't that something that would have been HUGE news? Christians still dominate currently in this country...wouldn't that be the first thing they would raise like a trophy? All religious people have to go off are some ancient writings translated billions of times over thousands of years, edited, and written at a time when stoning your neighbor for working on Sunday was the norm. I mean come on. At some point you have to know it's absurd.

"On the subject of charity, in the United States, religous on average donated more than 7 times that of people who identified themselves as atheist ($1500 vs $200 in 2006)"

That's interesting, because the term "atheist" is a near cuss word to this day in mainstream society. Atheists don't claim to be atheists for fear of rejection much in the same way that gays don't always admit they are gay. Because of this, I guarantee you the poll was invalid. Secondly, churches have MUCH more power and MUCH more money and resources to do these kinds of things, so it's not a level playing field. Thirdly, people of no faith do good things because we genuinely love people and see people suffering. People of faith do good things to kiss god's you know what. There is a massive difference. If someone gave you a cupcake because a guy was holding a gun to his head forcing him to give it to you, is that the same as someone voluntarily giving it to you out of the goodness of their heart? There is NOTHING people of faith can do morally that non-believers cannot. That can't be stressed enough. The charity arguments are totally irrelevant as a result.

I can assure you the young kids you see at church don't want to be there. Same with the adolescents and the twentysomethings if they are with their family. That used to be me. Many families FORCE you to go to church...it's not an option until you are an adult. By then though, many people are brainwashed anyway. Do you really think people would go to church if their parents and the rest of their family didn't pressure them to? It's like claiming a kid would voluntarily eat spinach instead of a cake.

 

1) Read the book before commenting on the thesis.
2) I assure you that the SJU graduating class of 25 or 50 years ago was much more "intellectual" than the current crop of students. Today, most would have attended more prestigious schools, and their children have.

 

Oh man, nothing like a good laugh to start the day! You are just dead wrong on #2. It has been proven in numerous studies that IQ has gone up with each generation...we are getting smarter and smarter thanks to improving technology. We have more access than your generation ever dreamed of and we know how to use it to learn more than ever before. You can't argue with the proven FACT that IQ has consistently gone up with each generation. So you are wrong there. And also, the second part is even funnier. Colleges are more selective than EVER before...the opposite of what you said is true. Many of the people in their 40's or 50's+ today would never get into their alma maters today. Marist College now accepts 37% and they have a fairly new re-calculated GPA that they use for applicants. What that means is they take all the BS classes that bump your GPA up like Gym, Tech, etc. and only concentrate on your core classes to recalculate your GPA only based on those. To get into SJU for undergrad today is only harder than it used to be. Since their mission is diversity they constantly use affirmative action in the selection process putting whites (I assume most of us here are) at a disadvantage. It's also just plain harder to get in with ridiculous costs. I'm in grad school at SJU and I barely even got into my program with a high GPA from Marist which is a great school to begin with. Things are more competitive than ever so please don't try to pull that stunt "back in my day"...because it's just not true. Your generation has accomplished great things no doubt, but you can't claim to be intellectually superior because it's proven false and you can't claim that college is just as easy to get into before because it's just false.

 

[LINY89]

 http://www.education.com/reference/article/why-college-admissions-competitive/

Though this is not a scholarly reference, read it... 

Read this also...IQ has risen with each generation

http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2010/10/2...igent-over-the-generations-how-could-that-be/

 

[fuchsia]

 I would never recommend reading texts on test construction and validity to anyone who did not need those skills and understanding professionally. Suffice it to say that we must be careful about what IQ tests are measuring. Also, some times it is a joy to look at the order of creation in Genesis and see with wonder that our ancestors were using a text that basically got the order correct, even in the context of current scientific knowledge.

 

[Class of 72]

 Divinity has never been proven...ever. So you might as well be talking about Alchemy turning stone into gold. Salvation is just part of the same doctrine. We do not have free will, because god supposedly interjects in our lives. If you believe prayer works, then free will contradicts it. A god involved in your personal life interferes, thus you don't have free will believing in an all powerful god. You believe god is omniscient and already knows everything you will do in your lifetime from conception to death. How is that free will? I also hear many Christians say "Well god put me in this situation purposely" or "god has a reason for this happening to me". That implies that free will does NOT exist.

 

Every person is free to believe what they want. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Jain, Buddist or Athiest, we all have an expiration date. What really matters is the "goodness" of humans towards each other regardless of spiritual beliefs. Religions were established to foster that goodness.....not to compete with each others' doctrines. That Catholics are a minority in "Catholic" colleges means nothing in today's academic world. The founders of these schools were Catholic clergy but just as Protestant Duke and Harvard were founded by and for Protestants originally, today's religious and cultural realities make most private colleges "non-denominational" as a very small percentage of young people actually practice their religion anymore and inter-faith marriages are diluting all religious affiliation for the married couples. Traditional religions are dying in the Christian world while the eastern religions and Muslims have remained closer to their original tenets.

 

Religion came about as a way to control the masses. It's one big giant marketing scheme that still keeps people ignorant to this day after thousands of years. They weren't established to compete with other doctrines? Actually, that's all many of them do is hate other denominations and compete. Islamists and Christians fight, Islamists and Jews fight, Christians and Jews fight, Mormoms and Christians fight, you can even throw Scientology in there. They all fight for new members and slander the other religions. They weren't established for goodness they were established for power and wealth. The Pope used to be the most important person in many countries in Europe. He was essentially a dictator. Yes plenty of good comes from religion but at an awful price. Religion is all about power and money like many other things.

 

Unfortunately, your response and viewpoint as expressed above addresses religions only from a contemporary (past 2,000 years) perspective. Spirituality and religious experience dates back thousands of years before Christ or Muhammad.
There were no "masses" to control 5,000 years ago. There was no money 5,000 years ago. Most societies were oblivious to other societies and were very isolated culturally. Yet, the early philosophers and mystics all shared a common belief that good must overcome evil. From this common belief came about the 10 commandments, early Hindu teachings and other expressions of faith to help mortal man live in an ever evolving word of good and evil. From early pre-history it was recognized that man is capable of both. Of course, today we know that some are genetically wired to do more evil than good and vis-versa. That Freudian aspect does not negate the importance of religion or spirituality as a component of one's beliefs.
Yes, many leaders in the religious world have abused their leadership roles, from the Popes to the Mullahs, but the value of the basic teachings of the 10 commandments is undeniable that even atheists adhere to them if they are "good" human beings.

 

You are making this too easy. You do realize that in the 10 commandments, about half of them are about a jealous god ordering you to not put any gods before him, to worship him, etc. Only a handful of those commandments are laws today. What does that say about a god if our country can come up with better laws than him? Also, those 10 commandments are a condensed version coming from hundreds of commandments. Someone along the way figured those were the top 10 and cut it down. But isn't that religion for you? Thousands of translations, tampering, thousands of interpretations, errors, contradicting statements, and immorality in the bible, yet people still believe it's true. Why can't we just agree that it's a significant book written by ancient scribes thousands of years ago to make sense of the world around them and tell legends at the time? It's obviously BS if you try to make it literal.

 

LMAO! A jealous God? I think not my dear boy! It speaks to the "oneness" of God the creator, hence the birth of the concept of monotheism. The beliefs of the day were there was a God for every aspect of life. Mortal men such as the Pharohes in Egypt proclaimed themselves living Gods. You are underestimating the ancient mind and its evolution to today's highly technical and programmed minds via selective mating of man and women as we have it in today's western society. Smart people beget smart offspring. In pre-history, your mate was selected for you and most of the greatest minds of the time were philosophers and religious mystics that put order in a chaotic world. No one takes the Bible literally any more as you know. However, people are free to believe its teachings as they choose and visualize its lessons as they were written thousands of years ago, even today.

 

[mjmaherjr]

If there is 1 thing this topic and the amount of responses has proven is that we need the Religion & Politics forum back.

D@mn I miss that forum especially with this being an election year 

 

[beast of the east]

 Divinity has never been proven...ever. So you might as well be talking about Alchemy turning stone into gold. Salvation is just part of the same doctrine. We do not have free will, because god supposedly interjects in our lives. If you believe prayer works, then free will contradicts it. A god involved in your personal life interferes, thus you don't have free will believing in an all powerful god. You believe god is omniscient and already knows everything you will do in your lifetime from conception to death. How is that free will? I also hear many Christians say "Well god put me in this situation purposely" or "god has a reason for this happening to me". That implies that free will does NOT exist.

 

It's kind of funny that you put forth concepts from your head that are completely devoid of any teachings of the Church, which you obviously were never taught. On the subject of free will, this is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

To be human, "man's response to God by faith must be free, and . . . therefore nobody is to be forced to embrace the faith against his will. The act of faith is of its very nature a free act."39 "God calls men to serve him in spirit and in truth. Consequently they are bound to him in conscience, but not coerced. . . . This fact received its fullest manifestation in Christ Jesus."40 Indeed, Christ invited people to faith and conversion, but never coerced them. "For he bore witness to the truth but refused to use force to impose it on those who spoke against it. His kingdom . . . grows by the love with which Christ, lifted up on the cross, draws men to himself."41

Instead of spouting whatever comes into your head, why don't you do a little research. you might just gain some knowledge that can cause you to intelligently reject precepts, instead of banging untruths around your head.

This is ceasing to be fun. I really do not mind an intelligent opposing view, because in dialogue both parties can gain an understanding of the other position, and sometimes even change their opinion. BAsically you are just typing, and proving my point that Catholic education must be offered at a Catholic University, and in this regard, St. John's is failing.

 

[beast of the east]

 Divinity has never been proven...ever. So you might as well be talking about Alchemy turning stone into gold. Salvation is just part of the same doctrine. We do not have free will, because god supposedly interjects in our lives. If you believe prayer works, then free will contradicts it. A god involved in your personal life interferes, thus you don't have free will believing in an all powerful god. You believe god is omniscient and already knows everything you will do in your lifetime from conception to death. How is that free will? I also hear many Christians say "Well god put me in this situation purposely" or "god has a reason for this happening to me". That implies that free will does NOT exist.

 

Every person is free to believe what they want. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Jain, Buddist or Athiest, we all have an expiration date. What really matters is the "goodness" of humans towards each other regardless of spiritual beliefs. Religions were established to foster that goodness.....not to compete with each others' doctrines. That Catholics are a minority in "Catholic" colleges means nothing in today's academic world. The founders of these schools were Catholic clergy but just as Protestant Duke and Harvard were founded by and for Protestants originally, today's religious and cultural realities make most private colleges "non-denominational" as a very small percentage of young people actually practice their religion anymore and inter-faith marriages are diluting all religious affiliation for the married couples. Traditional religions are dying in the Christian world while the eastern religions and Muslims have remained closer to their original tenets.

 

Religion came about as a way to control the masses. It's one big giant marketing scheme that still keeps people ignorant to this day after thousands of years. They weren't established to compete with other doctrines? Actually, that's all many of them do is hate other denominations and compete. Islamists and Christians fight, Islamists and Jews fight, Christians and Jews fight, Mormoms and Christians fight, you can even throw Scientology in there. They all fight for new members and slander the other religions. They weren't established for goodness they were established for power and wealth. The Pope used to be the most important person in many countries in Europe. He was essentially a dictator. Yes plenty of good comes from religion but at an awful price. Religion is all about power and money like many other things.

 

Really? Since Christianity was born during control of Judea by the Roman empire, which was pagan, how did the Roman empire create Christianity? Or was it Jewish Pharisees, who rejected Christ? Actually, you are partially correct, although you should research your facts before writing them. Conflicts among religions are part of the human condition, and its unfortunate. Consdiering our current environment, there is also an active movement of atheists attacking organized religions. Surely you are aware of well funded athiest movements to sue small towns who have littl financial means to defend themselves to remove icons considered to have religious significance from public property. Most recently that was a WWI memorial in the shape of a cross in a small town in Rhode Island, which has stood without protest in a small Rhode Island town for nearly 100 years.

Consider that the apostles accumulated no wealth, and some like MAtthew gave up considerable wealth, and all except John were martyred (John was exiled to Asia) your argument that Christianity was founded in order to gain power is absurd.

Mormons ARE Christians, and have worked hard to become a mainstream religion over the past century. There are 40 million worldwide, and their relationship with Catholics, particularly in Utah is warm. When the CAtholic Cathedral in Salt Lake city badly needed a $10 million renovation, the Catholic fundraising effort fell short. The Mormon church stepped in and funded the difference. The Catholic CAthedral has a magnificent choir, and some of the children who sing in the choir are Mormon.

It's funny that you view the relations between religions so negatively. I don't recall reading anything our Pope has said to slander Judaism or Protestantism. Of course, every religion is entitled to believe that their faith is the best way to worship God. Pope John Paul II established diplomatic relations with Israel, publicly admonished any evangelization efforts of Jews, and invted and visited with leaders of every mainstream religion in the world. As a child in Poland, he befriended many Jewish children, and some of his best lifelong friends were Jewish.

On the subject of charity, in the United States, religous on average donated more than 7 times that of people who identified themselves as atheist ($1500 vs $200 in 2006). Statistically, 92% of Protestants, 91% onf Catholics, 91% of Jews, and 89% of other religions give charitably. Compafratively, only 66% of atheists give chariably. It can be assuredly said that the religious people you roundly catigate have defrayed the cost of your St. John's education by their charitable giving to the school. So, when one of the comments on this thread were that you seemed ingrateful to be attending a Catholic University, and speaking negatively about the CAtholic faith has considerbale validity.

Perhaps one of the reasons that Catholic students are attending SJU these days is that it just isn't very Catholic anymore. I worship at a Catholic Church in close proximity to the University. The parish was the first to build a new church in the Brooklyn diocese in more than 25 years (we did not have a church since its foudning in 1948). Despite increasing capacity from 350 to 650, the pews are filled each Sunday for each mass, with many young gamilies and children. So there is hope I guess for the future of St. Johns.

I am winding down my posts on this thread, and the factual dogmatic principles I've posted here, along with other researched facts, are not intended to convince you, who obviously cannot and will not be convinced, but perhaps others who may be more open minded.

If you are an inquisitive reader, I'd suggest for our or others the books "More than a Carpenter", by Josh McDowell, and "Who moved the Stone", by Frank Morrison.

More than a Carpenter is an easy read, even easier as an audiobook. There are literally 10's of millions of copies in print. It's a simple explanation of Christian faith. One of the subject McDowell covers is one you referenced in your last post - the date that the Gospels were written. As you are aware three of the Gospels are synoptic, with large portions of each very similar to the others. Mark's Gospel is likely the earliest, and although atheists claim they were written hundreds of years after the death of Christ, over time earlier and earlier manusciprts have been discovered. In the past 30 years, a piece of Papyrus containing words from scripture has been carbon dated to 52 AD, less than 20 years after the death of Christ. If verifiable, this would make MArk's Gospel a historical document, since its content would easily have been rejected by any eye witness to the events around Jerusalem during Jesus' 3 year public ministry. Again, interesting reading.

"Who moved the Stone" by Frank Morrison was written on an interesting premise. An attorney by trade, Morrison attempted to write a legal case on how the Resurrection of Christ could not have possibly occurred. During his in depth research, he became convinced that he was wrong, and instead his book instead concluded that overwhelmingly the facts indicated that the resurrection did indeed occur.

I am winding down my posting here, but grateful to St. John's for participating in my faith formation which is far from complete. I will continue to be an advocate, despite loud protests by atheists, that St. John's retrace its steps and return to its fouding mission of educating young Catholics who desire to be educated in the Catholic faith.

 

First off, that lawyer claiming the resurrection was factual clearly had terrible "evidence", because isn't that something that would have been HUGE news? Christians still dominate currently in this country...wouldn't that be the first thing they would raise like a trophy? All religious people have to go off are some ancient writings translated billions of times over thousands of years, edited, and written at a time when stoning your neighbor for working on Sunday was the norm. I mean come on. At some point you have to know it's absurd.

"On the subject of charity, in the United States, religous on average donated more than 7 times that of people who identified themselves as atheist ($1500 vs $200 in 2006)"

That's interesting, because the term "atheist" is a near cuss word to this day in mainstream society. Atheists don't claim to be atheists for fear of rejection much in the same way that gays don't always admit they are gay. Because of this, I guarantee you the poll was invalid. Secondly, churches have MUCH more power and MUCH more money and resources to do these kinds of things, so it's not a level playing field. Thirdly, people of no faith do good things because we genuinely love people and see people suffering. People of faith do good things to kiss god's you know what. There is a massive difference. If someone gave you a cupcake because a guy was holding a gun to his head forcing him to give it to you, is that the same as someone voluntarily giving it to you out of the goodness of their heart? There is NOTHING people of faith can do morally that non-believers cannot. That can't be stressed enough. The charity arguments are totally irrelevant as a result.

I can assure you the young kids you see at church don't want to be there. Same with the adolescents and the twentysomethings if they are with their family. That used to be me. Many families FORCE you to go to church...it's not an option until you are an adult. By then though, many people are brainwashed anyway. Do you really think people would go to church if their parents and the rest of their family didn't pressure them to? It's like claiming a kid would voluntarily eat spinach instead of a cake.

 

1) Read the book before commenting on the thesis.
2) I assure you that the SJU graduating class of 25 or 50 years ago was much more "intellectual" than the current crop of students. Today, most would have attended more prestigious schools, and their children have.

 

Oh man, nothing like a good laugh to start the day! You are just dead wrong on #2. It has been proven in numerous studies that IQ has gone up with each generation...we are getting smarter and smarter thanks to improving technology. We have more access than your generation ever dreamed of and we know how to use it to learn more than ever before. You can't argue with the proven FACT that IQ has consistently gone up with each generation. So you are wrong there. And also, the second part is even funnier. Colleges are more selective than EVER before...the opposite of what you said is true. Many of the people in their 40's or 50's+ today would never get into their alma maters today. Marist College now accepts 37% and they have a fairly new re-calculated GPA that they use for applicants. What that means is they take all the BS classes that bump your GPA up like Gym, Tech, etc. and only concentrate on your core classes to recalculate your GPA only based on those. To get into SJU for undergrad today is only harder than it used to be. Since their mission is diversity they constantly use affirmative action in the selection process putting whites (I assume most of us here are) at a disadvantage. It's also just plain harder to get in with ridiculous costs. I'm in grad school at SJU and I barely even got into my program with a high GPA from Marist which is a great school to begin with. Things are more competitive than ever so please don't try to pull that stunt "back in my day"...because it's just not true. Your generation has accomplished great things no doubt, but you can't claim to be intellectually superior because it's proven false and you can't claim that college is just as easy to get into before because it's just false.

 

The average SAT entrance score for SJU is 1100, about the same as it was 40 years ago, despite the fact that scores have been diluted and overall SAT scores have risen significantly due to eaiser exams and prep courses by students that didn't exist 25 years ago. I'm curious - what were your SAT scores, and if you have such superior intellect, why did you go to such an average school for undergrad?

 

[beast of the east]

If there is 1 thing this topic and the amount of responses has proven is that we need the Religion & Politics forum back.

D@mn I miss that forum especially with this being an election year 

 

Well, unfortunately, on subjects as emotionally charged as religion and politics many folks are incapable of civil discourse. Sometimes we get frustrated either by being overwhelmed by factual information by someone with an opposing view or resorts to personal attacks. It's too bad. Most of the people I've met from Redmen.com are terrific folks. I don't mind spirited debate on any subject, but most people just converse to prove their point, not to consider the opposing viewpoint.

 

[mjmaherjr]

If there is 1 thing this topic and the amount of responses has proven is that we need the Religion & Politics forum back.

D@mn I miss that forum especially with this being an election year 

 

Well, unfortunately, on subjects as emotionally charged as religion and politics many folks are incapable of civil discourse. Sometimes we get frustrated either by being overwhelmed by factual information by someone with an opposing view or resorts to personal attacks. It's too bad. Most of the people I've met from Redmen.com are terrific folks. I don't mind spirited debate on any subject, but most people just converse to prove their point, not to consider the opposing viewpoint.

 

Oh we had some great arguments and a lot that got real nasty. lol. Was real fun reading and I enjoyed the different view points and quite honestly it was quite enjoyable debating

 

[mjmaherjr]

 Divinity has never been proven...ever. So you might as well be talking about Alchemy turning stone into gold. Salvation is just part of the same doctrine. We do not have free will, because god supposedly interjects in our lives. If you believe prayer works, then free will contradicts it. A god involved in your personal life interferes, thus you don't have free will believing in an all powerful god. You believe god is omniscient and already knows everything you will do in your lifetime from conception to death. How is that free will? I also hear many Christians say "Well god put me in this situation purposely" or "god has a reason for this happening to me". That implies that free will does NOT exist.

 

Every person is free to believe what they want. Christian, Muslim, Jew, Jain, Buddist or Athiest, we all have an expiration date. What really matters is the "goodness" of humans towards each other regardless of spiritual beliefs. Religions were established to foster that goodness.....not to compete with each others' doctrines. That Catholics are a minority in "Catholic" colleges means nothing in today's academic world. The founders of these schools were Catholic clergy but just as Protestant Duke and Harvard were founded by and for Protestants originally, today's religious and cultural realities make most private colleges "non-denominational" as a very small percentage of young people actually practice their religion anymore and inter-faith marriages are diluting all religious affiliation for the married couples. Traditional religions are dying in the Christian world while the eastern religions and Muslims have remained closer to their original tenets.

 

Religion came about as a way to control the masses. It's one big giant marketing scheme that still keeps people ignorant to this day after thousands of years. They weren't established to compete with other doctrines? Actually, that's all many of them do is hate other denominations and compete. Islamists and Christians fight, Islamists and Jews fight, Christians and Jews fight, Mormoms and Christians fight, you can even throw Scientology in there. They all fight for new members and slander the other religions. They weren't established for goodness they were established for power and wealth. The Pope used to be the most important person in many countries in Europe. He was essentially a dictator. Yes plenty of good comes from religion but at an awful price. Religion is all about power and money like many other things.

 

Really? Since Christianity was born during control of Judea by the Roman empire, which was pagan, how did the Roman empire create Christianity? Or was it Jewish Pharisees, who rejected Christ? Actually, you are partially correct, although you should research your facts before writing them. Conflicts among religions are part of the human condition, and its unfortunate. Consdiering our current environment, there is also an active movement of atheists attacking organized religions. Surely you are aware of well funded athiest movements to sue small towns who have littl financial means to defend themselves to remove icons considered to have religious significance from public property. Most recently that was a WWI memorial in the shape of a cross in a small town in Rhode Island, which has stood without protest in a small Rhode Island town for nearly 100 years.

Consider that the apostles accumulated no wealth, and some like MAtthew gave up considerable wealth, and all except John were martyred (John was exiled to Asia) your argument that Christianity was founded in order to gain power is absurd.

Mormons ARE Christians, and have worked hard to become a mainstream religion over the past century. There are 40 million worldwide, and their relationship with Catholics, particularly in Utah is warm. When the CAtholic Cathedral in Salt Lake city badly needed a $10 million renovation, the Catholic fundraising effort fell short. The Mormon church stepped in and funded the difference. The Catholic CAthedral has a magnificent choir, and some of the children who sing in the choir are Mormon.

It's funny that you view the relations between religions so negatively. I don't recall reading anything our Pope has said to slander Judaism or Protestantism. Of course, every religion is entitled to believe that their faith is the best way to worship God. Pope John Paul II established diplomatic relations with Israel, publicly admonished any evangelization efforts of Jews, and invted and visited with leaders of every mainstream religion in the world. As a child in Poland, he befriended many Jewish children, and some of his best lifelong friends were Jewish.

On the subject of charity, in the United States, religous on average donated more than 7 times that of people who identified themselves as atheist ($1500 vs $200 in 2006). Statistically, 92% of Protestants, 91% onf Catholics, 91% of Jews, and 89% of other religions give charitably. Compafratively, only 66% of atheists give chariably. It can be assuredly said that the religious people you roundly catigate have defrayed the cost of your St. John's education by their charitable giving to the school. So, when one of the comments on this thread were that you seemed ingrateful to be attending a Catholic University, and speaking negatively about the CAtholic faith has considerbale validity.

Perhaps one of the reasons that Catholic students are attending SJU these days is that it just isn't very Catholic anymore. I worship at a Catholic Church in close proximity to the University. The parish was the first to build a new church in the Brooklyn diocese in more than 25 years (we did not have a church since its foudning in 1948). Despite increasing capacity from 350 to 650, the pews are filled each Sunday for each mass, with many young gamilies and children. So there is hope I guess for the future of St. Johns.

I am winding down my posts on this thread, and the factual dogmatic principles I've posted here, along with other researched facts, are not intended to convince you, who obviously cannot and will not be convinced, but perhaps others who may be more open minded.

If you are an inquisitive reader, I'd suggest for our or others the books "More than a Carpenter", by Josh McDowell, and "Who moved the Stone", by Frank Morrison.

More than a Carpenter is an easy read, even easier as an audiobook. There are literally 10's of millions of copies in print. It's a simple explanation of Christian faith. One of the subject McDowell covers is one you referenced in your last post - the date that the Gospels were written. As you are aware three of the Gospels are synoptic, with large portions of each very similar to the others. Mark's Gospel is likely the earliest, and although atheists claim they were written hundreds of years after the death of Christ, over time earlier and earlier manusciprts have been discovered. In the past 30 years, a piece of Papyrus containing words from scripture has been carbon dated to 52 AD, less than 20 years after the death of Christ. If verifiable, this would make MArk's Gospel a historical document, since its content would easily have been rejected by any eye witness to the events around Jerusalem during Jesus' 3 year public ministry. Again, interesting reading.

"Who moved the Stone" by Frank Morrison was written on an interesting premise. An attorney by trade, Morrison attempted to write a legal case on how the Resurrection of Christ could not have possibly occurred. During his in depth research, he became convinced that he was wrong, and instead his book instead concluded that overwhelmingly the facts indicated that the resurrection did indeed occur.

I am winding down my posting here, but grateful to St. John's for participating in my faith formation which is far from complete. I will continue to be an advocate, despite loud protests by atheists, that St. John's retrace its steps and return to its fouding mission of educating young Catholics who desire to be educated in the Catholic faith.

 

First off, that lawyer claiming the resurrection was factual clearly had terrible "evidence", because isn't that something that would have been HUGE news? Christians still dominate currently in this country...wouldn't that be the first thing they would raise like a trophy? All religious people have to go off are some ancient writings translated billions of times over thousands of years, edited, and written at a time when stoning your neighbor for working on Sunday was the norm. I mean come on. At some point you have to know it's absurd.

"On the subject of charity, in the United States, religous on average donated more than 7 times that of people who identified themselves as atheist ($1500 vs $200 in 2006)"

That's interesting, because the term "atheist" is a near cuss word to this day in mainstream society. Atheists don't claim to be atheists for fear of rejection much in the same way that gays don't always admit they are gay. Because of this, I guarantee you the poll was invalid. Secondly, churches have MUCH more power and MUCH more money and resources to do these kinds of things, so it's not a level playing field. Thirdly, people of no faith do good things because we genuinely love people and see people suffering. People of faith do good things to kiss god's you know what. There is a massive difference. If someone gave you a cupcake because a guy was holding a gun to his head forcing him to give it to you, is that the same as someone voluntarily giving it to you out of the goodness of their heart? There is NOTHING people of faith can do morally that non-believers cannot. That can't be stressed enough. The charity arguments are totally irrelevant as a result.

I can assure you the young kids you see at church don't want to be there. Same with the adolescents and the twentysomethings if they are with their family. That used to be me. Many families FORCE you to go to church...it's not an option until you are an adult. By then though, many people are brainwashed anyway. Do you really think people would go to church if their parents and the rest of their family didn't pressure them to? It's like claiming a kid would voluntarily eat spinach instead of a cake.

 

1) Read the book before commenting on the thesis.
2) I assure you that the SJU graduating class of 25 or 50 years ago was much more "intellectual" than the current crop of students. Today, most would have attended more prestigious schools, and their children have.

 

Oh man, nothing like a good laugh to start the day! You are just dead wrong on #2. It has been proven in numerous studies that IQ has gone up with each generation...we are getting smarter and smarter thanks to improving technology. We have more access than your generation ever dreamed of and we know how to use it to learn more than ever before. You can't argue with the proven FACT that IQ has consistently gone up with each generation

 

I don't know the stats but I'd be curious to know if IQ's were up across the board for an age group or was it a byproduct of the bottom half of an age group getting smarter.

My guess is and I might be wrong on this but I think the top 1/4 or half could have possibly stayed the same with an increase of standard of living causing a bigger rise in the bottom half's iq's.

I'd also be curious with the rising iq numbers in developed countries vs emerging countries because I'd kind of think the emerging countries would have higher increases again due to a rapid increase in standard of living 

 

[beast of the east]

 My theological summation of this thread is as followed: I don't know whose arrogance is more repugnant Joe3 for pretending to be the voice of his generation or Beast for pretending to know who gets through the Pearly Gates. There's a place in Hell for both you.... maybe. 

 

I think it's really funny that you can attach arrogance to commentary on a a thread by someone who is trying to patiently explain Catholic doctrine, when the purpose of the thread was to discuss the secularization of univeristies that were founded for a religious mission. It's astounding you can cast negativity on the explanation of cathlic doctrine, which some of the negative posters on here chose this thread to reject.

For many alumni, the fact that St. John's was a CAtholic University was an important part of our decision to attend the university and the continued decline in Catholic enrollment is disconcerting. As you are likely aware, FH and the BOT is very aware of this fact, and are actively taking steps to try to reverse this trend. IMO it is not enough, and we will see how it unfolds.

 

I still respect you and everyone else here as part of the SJU family, and good for your generation for embracing the Catholic mission in years past at SJU. The thing is, as your generation gets older and older, the ideals go with it...they begin to die out. You can't try to force feed old ideas to a new progressive more intellectual generation. The bus has simply left years ago...colleges are not going back to the days when people went to church every Sunday because the culture and population is changing. I understand your nostalgia, but despite the common belief that "back in my day everything was better", some things need to happen i.e. secularization. It's time to pass the baton to the new generation...we are approaching that age where it's our turn at bat now. I was at the reason rally in DC and an estimated 20,000 yes twenty thousand people showed up...overwhelmingly consisting of people under 30. By the way that was in torrential downpours and cold muggy weather. Look around on the internet...it seems that the norm is secularism already.

 

Ahhh, so now I know what I am dealing with - someone who is a dyed in the wool atheist who is trying to promote an atheist movement in the United States. Good luck with that. It's much easier to understand you when you reveal just how much of a doctrine you are spouting. If you could string together an intelligent argument disproving God based on science, I might be interested in hearing it. However, you are quite incapable, not by your own lack iof intellect and preparedness, but because it is not possible to prove or disprove God irrefutably merely by science.

There is nothing in science now or ever that is not in harmony with God. Can science explain everything? No.
Sceince is limited by known facts, and the conclusions made are done so basedon available evidence and tools to measure and examine.

There is nothing in science that can explain how identical twins separated at birth name their children or pets the exact same names, or the times when a twin has become aware that his sibling has died at the moment of death. It cannot explain how people that are brain dead by an EEG somehow regain consciousness and resume normal activity.

More definitively science appears to be broken when it comes to issues like dark matter (an unknown form makes up most of the matter of the universe.) This matter is not predicted by the standard physics models. The so-called "Theory of Everything" does not predict and does not understand what this substance is.

The law of gravity appears to be seriously broken. Experiments by Saxl and Allais found that Foucault pendulums veer off in strange directions during solar eclipses. Interplanetary NASA satellites are showing persistent errors in trajectory. Neither of these is explained or predicted by the standard theory of gravity known as Einstein's General Relativity.

The Cold Fusion phenomenon violates physics as we understand it, and yet it has been duplicated in various forms in over 500 laboratories around the world. Recent studies by the Electric Power Research Institute, a large non-profit research organization funded by the nation's power companies, found that Cold Fusion works. A recent Navy study also verified the reality of Cold Fusion, and the original MIT study which supposedly disproved Cold Fusion has been found to have doctored its data. Present day physics has no explanation for how it works, but it does work.

Under certain conditions, billions of electrons can "stick together" in close proximity, despite the law of electromagnetism that like charges repel. Charge clusters are small, one millionth of a meter in diameter, and are composed of tens or hundreds of billions of electrons. They should fly apart at enormous speed, but they do not. This indicates that our laws of electromagnetism are missing something important.

The speed of light, once thought unbreakable, has been exceeded in several recent experiments. Our notion of what is possible in terms of propagation speed has been changing as a result. Certain phenomena, such as solar disturbances on the sun which take more than eight minutes to be visible on the earth, are registered instantaneously on the acupuncture points of instrumented subjects. Acupuncture points apparently respond to solar events by some other force which travels through space at a much higher speed than light.

This covers just a few of the more glaring anomalies in the "hard sciences." Evidence has also accumulated in the laboratory that many paranormal effects are real, and can be verified and studied scientifically. Among these are the following: ESP, which has been proven but not explained by science. Psychokinesis = Even over distances of thousands of miles, the behavior of certain machines, called REGs for Random Event Generators, have been altered by the intention, or the psychic force of a distant person. The odds that these effects are real, and not due to chance, is now measured in billions to one. In other words, this phenomenon is real.

So despite atheist clamoring for prooft positive that there is God, or he simply cannot exist, or that the supernatural is just not possible, falls far short of being conclusive evidence.

I have often clallenged those who have rejected the Christian faith, that if the reusrrection can be aboslutely proven not to have occurred, then I would have to reject Christianity. I will similarly offer to someone as yourself, that if the resurrection could be proven, would you accept Christianity? I would offer you the same question.

 

[beast of the east]

[quote="Joe3" . It's time to pass the baton to the new generation...we are approaching that age where it's our turn at bat now. I was at the reason rally in DC and an estimated 20,000 yes twenty thousand people showed up...overwhelmingly consisting of people under 30. By the way that was in torrential downpours and cold muggy weather. Look around on the internet...it seems that the norm is secularism already.[/quote]  would imagin

I think the wonderful thing about the competitive nature of a free capitalistic society is that if you are superior intellect and talent, you will rise to prominence in your chosen career, in political structures or social circles. It will not be based on your age, or your "turn at bat". perhaps you will become the next great leader of the Reason Movement, and draw millions of people to hear you speak. Maube you will be successful in removing every shred of relgious icons from American life, as was done in the Soviet Union under communism. Perhaps you will be successful in arresting and jailing Christians as in Communist China. Or maybe you will rise to great Heights like the great atheist Hitler, and eliminate those who religion you find repulsive. I suggest it is high time we have an atheist group on the campus of St, John's and you seem to be jsut the person to start a reason chapter on campus. I personally think you should sue if Student Government refuses to fund your fledgling movement. I am certian that since the student body is as fervent as you in the rejection of God and religion, that before long you will have the largest group on campus. Good luck in you mission! It's your turn to lead, young man! Carpe diem! Power is seized, not handed to you. You seem to possess the wisdom and intellect of a Churchill (who was a poor student who wouldn't have gotten accepted to SJU today) or even as resolute as Lincoln, who was a self taught lawyer (probably couldn't afford tuition so he had to make due). Your generation is superior, and you have all the markings of greatness! God bles you - uh, that was a slip.. May Nothing bless you!

 

[austour]

 My theological summation of this thread is as followed: I don't know whose arrogance is more repugnant Joe3 for pretending to be the voice of his generation or Beast for pretending to know who gets through the Pearly Gates. There's a place in Hell for both you.... maybe. 

 

I think it's really funny that you can attach arrogance to commentary on a a thread by someone who is trying to patiently explain Catholic doctrine, when the purpose of the thread was to discuss the secularization of univeristies that were founded for a religious mission. It's astounding you can cast negativity on the explanation of cathlic doctrine, which some of the negative posters on here chose this thread to reject.

For many alumni, the fact that St. John's was a CAtholic University was an important part of our decision to attend the university and the continued decline in Catholic enrollment is disconcerting. As you are likely aware, FH and the BOT is very aware of this fact, and are actively taking steps to try to reverse this trend. IMO it is not enough, and we will see how it unfolds.

 

I still respect you and everyone else here as part of the SJU family, and good for your generation for embracing the Catholic mission in years past at SJU. The thing is, as your generation gets older and older, the ideals go with it...they begin to die out. You can't try to force feed old ideas to a new progressive more intellectual generation. The bus has simply left years ago...colleges are not going back to the days when people went to church every Sunday because the culture and population is changing. I understand your nostalgia, but despite the common belief that "back in my day everything was better", some things need to happen i.e. secularization. It's time to pass the baton to the new generation...we are approaching that age where it's our turn at bat now. I was at the reason rally in DC and an estimated 20,000 yes twenty thousand people showed up...overwhelmingly consisting of people under 30. By the way that was in torrential downpours and cold muggy weather. Look around on the internet...it seems that the norm is secularism already.

 

Ahhh, so now I know what I am dealing with - someone who is a dyed in the wool atheist who is trying to promote an atheist movement in the United States. Good luck with that. It's much easier to understand you when you reveal just how much of a doctrine you are spouting. If you could string together an intelligent argument disproving God based on science, I might be interested in hearing it. However, you are quite incapable, not by your own lack iof intellect and preparedness, but because it is not possible to prove or disprove God irrefutably merely by science.

There is nothing in science now or ever that is not in harmony with God. Can science explain everything? No.
Sceince is limited by known facts, and the conclusions made are done so basedon available evidence and tools to measure and examine.

There is nothing in science that can explain how identical twins separated at birth name their children or pets the exact same names, or the times when a twin has become aware that his sibling has died at the moment of death. It cannot explain how people that are brain dead by an EEG somehow regain consciousness and resume normal activity.

More definitively science appears to be broken when it comes to issues like dark matter (an unknown form makes up most of the matter of the universe.) This matter is not predicted by the standard physics models. The so-called "Theory of Everything" does not predict and does not understand what this substance is.

The law of gravity appears to be seriously broken. Experiments by Saxl and Allais found that Foucault pendulums veer off in strange directions during solar eclipses. Interplanetary NASA satellites are showing persistent errors in trajectory. Neither of these is explained or predicted by the standard theory of gravity known as Einstein's General Relativity.

The Cold Fusion phenomenon violates physics as we understand it, and yet it has been duplicated in various forms in over 500 laboratories around the world. Recent studies by the Electric Power Research Institute, a large non-profit research organization funded by the nation's power companies, found that Cold Fusion works. A recent Navy study also verified the reality of Cold Fusion, and the original MIT study which supposedly disproved Cold Fusion has been found to have doctored its data. Present day physics has no explanation for how it works, but it does work.

Under certain conditions, billions of electrons can "stick together" in close proximity, despite the law of electromagnetism that like charges repel. Charge clusters are small, one millionth of a meter in diameter, and are composed of tens or hundreds of billions of electrons. They should fly apart at enormous speed, but they do not. This indicates that our laws of electromagnetism are missing something important.

The speed of light, once thought unbreakable, has been exceeded in several recent experiments. Our notion of what is possible in terms of propagation speed has been changing as a result. Certain phenomena, such as solar disturbances on the sun which take more than eight minutes to be visible on the earth, are registered instantaneously on the acupuncture points of instrumented subjects. Acupuncture points apparently respond to solar events by some other force which travels through space at a much higher speed than light.

This covers just a few of the more glaring anomalies in the "hard sciences." Evidence has also accumulated in the laboratory that many paranormal effects are real, and can be verified and studied scientifically. Among these are the following: ESP, which has been proven but not explained by science. Psychokinesis = Even over distances of thousands of miles, the behavior of certain machines, called REGs for Random Event Generators, have been altered by the intention, or the psychic force of a distant person. The odds that these effects are real, and not due to chance, is now measured in billions to one. In other words, this phenomenon is real.

So despite atheist clamoring for prooft positive that there is God, or he simply cannot exist, or that the supernatural is just not possible, falls far short of being conclusive evidence.

I have often clallenged those who have rejected the Christian faith, that if the reusrrection can be aboslutely proven not to have occurred, then I would have to reject Christianity. I will similarly offer to someone as yourself, that if the resurrection could be proven, would you accept Christianity? I would offer you the same question.

 

This is the ultimate arrogance. Because we humans can't figure it out it must be god's will. I know Joe's argument debate is full of holes and generally infantile (all my friends are doing it so the rest of the country must be too, I mean c'mon) but then a post like this that shows an anti-intellectualism second only to the tea party platform and leaves me stupefied.

The gist of the argument is I read it in a self help book disguised as a mix of historical fiction and fantasy so who cares about your science text books. I leave you with another of my other mottos: Science always has an answer, it's just that sometimes the answer is I don't know, yet.