Big East Media Day

That first Lavin year people were saying that (dark horse final four or elite eight) towards the end of the year after all those great victories when we were actually ranked 15.
Who knows how far we'd have gone but for DJ's injury. Definitely overachieved pre-season expectations as I hope and believe we will this year.
 
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[quote="usguard" post=400579]How are we in Tier 2 with getting picked for ninth and DePaul having a better recruiting class unless I am wrong[/quote]
There are 4-5 recruiting classes on teams taking into account redshirt years so one recruiting class is not going to dictate where you are ranked unless you are talking about Kentucky and Duke who rely on 4-5 one and done recruits per season.
 
[quote="MCNPA" post=400593][quote="fordham96" post=400590]The fact is they are picked where almost every objective person thinks they will finish. They have no pre -season All BE players. That doesn't mean they have to finish there. I get that. And I think there is room to move up.

But almost everyone said that the 3 worst teams coming in on paper were Georgetown, DePaul and SJU. All 3 finished at/near the bottom of the BE from previous year and all 3 have roster turnovers with no 5 star recruits coming to make a huge impact. Or in SJU case also lost arguably it's best returning player off a mediocre/bad team.

I always hope for the best. But my expectations go up next year. That is why I want recruiting to pick up.[/quote]

I still think we are being under-ranked this year. We beat Arizona, wvu, Creighton almost twice and were really coming on at the end. We did that without Heron for the most part as he wasn’t a big contributor. Not only that, I think we probably kept playing him a bit too long and probably lost a few because of it as we played better when he went out. Not knocking Heron, he was injured. We also had only Dunn in the backcourt for the most part because Greg Williams had back problems the first half of season. .

We lose Lj who was talented but I think Champagnie can slide into his role a bit this year. That said; we are a lot deeper everywhere else. We have a ton more backcourt talent and depth that are more ready to play Mike Anderson:’s style. We have added front-court talent and depth and talent as well which we had none of last year:

I don’t think we will run into the same problems as last year where several of our starters aren’t ready to Play cma’s system. I also think Posh will have a big impact as a guard for us as we didn’t have a player like him last year. Dunn shares some of his strengths, but Posh can score and distribute more. Toro in the middle is big for us as is Moore who should add some skill up front over guys like Spears and Steere who were not cut out for this level.

I think we finish somewhere in the 4-7th range if we are looking at tiers. I think we have very good coach, style and the depth to finally play how we want to.[/quote]

I agree with this analysis on paper but it requires a fair amount of projection and assumption. If it works out (which I think it may and hope it does) then SJU can be somewhere in the middle of the conference - which could be anywhere from 5-8, it should be a pretty narrow range in terms of w/l. If it doesn't, then 9th is the right spot. Could be 10th if Leitao (who is awful) manages not to make too much less of the talent he has.

That's also the answer to usguard - rankings do not always equal production, and even if the players can play, some coaches manage to make lemons out of lemonade while others make lemonade out of lemons. I expect SJU to finish ahead of DePaul.
 
[quote="lawmanfan" post=400605][quote="MCNPA" post=400593][quote="fordham96" post=400590]The fact is they are picked where almost every objective person thinks they will finish. They have no pre -season All BE players. That doesn't mean they have to finish there. I get that. And I think there is room to move up.

But almost everyone said that the 3 worst teams coming in on paper were Georgetown, DePaul and SJU. All 3 finished at/near the bottom of the BE from previous year and all 3 have roster turnovers with no 5 star recruits coming to make a huge impact. Or in SJU case also lost arguably it's best returning player off a mediocre/bad team.

I always hope for the best. But my expectations go up next year. That is why I want recruiting to pick up.[/quote]

I still think we are being under-ranked this year. We beat Arizona, wvu, Creighton almost twice and were really coming on at the end. We did that without Heron for the most part as he wasn’t a big contributor. Not only that, I think we probably kept playing him a bit too long and probably lost a few because of it as we played better when he went out. Not knocking Heron, he was injured. We also had only Dunn in the backcourt for the most part because Greg Williams had back problems the first half of season. .

We lose Lj who was talented but I think Champagnie can slide into his role a bit this year. That said; we are a lot deeper everywhere else. We have a ton more backcourt talent and depth that are more ready to play Mike Anderson:’s style. We have added front-court talent and depth and talent as well which we had none of last year:

I don’t think we will run into the same problems as last year where several of our starters aren’t ready to Play cma’s system. I also think Posh will have a big impact as a guard for us as we didn’t have a player like him last year. Dunn shares some of his strengths, but Posh can score and distribute more. Toro in the middle is big for us as is Moore who should add some skill up front over guys like Spears and Steere who were not cut out for this level.

I think we finish somewhere in the 4-7th range if we are looking at tiers. I think we have very good coach, style and the depth to finally play how we want to.[/quote]

I agree with this analysis on paper but it requires a fair amount of projection and assumption. If it works out (which I think it may and hope it does) then SJU can be somewhere in the middle of the conference - which could be anywhere from 5-8, it should be a pretty narrow range in terms of w/l. If it doesn't, then 9th is the right spot. Could be 10th if Leitao (who is awful) manages not to make too much less of the talent he has.

That's also the answer to usguard - rankings do not always equal production, and even if the players can play, some coaches manage to make lemons out of lemonade while others make lemonade out of lemons. I expect SJU to finish ahead of DePaul.[/quote]

It’s less of a bold presumption than the rankings propelling. UConn to a top tier program when they haven’t been able to finish higher than 5th in the AAC. I think CMA at the helm with our depth is going to cause problems. All of these are projections and assumptions.
 
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[quote="NCJohnnie" post=400602]That first Lavin year people were saying that (dark horse final four or elite eight) towards the end of the year after all those great victories when we were actually ranked 15.
Who knows how far we'd have gone but for DJ's injury. Definitely overachieved pre-season expectations as I hope and believe we will this year.[/quote]

OK you do understand we are talking about pre-season predictions. Btw SJU was picked 6th by coaches prior to 10-11 but that came with a huge asterisk. If you remember Pitino picked them 1st and that was a bit of a joke. It skewed their ranking considerably. At least one coach picked them 13th that year. The real pre-season probably was 10th or 11th if you either take out Pitino''s vote or if he gave a more realistic vote.
 
[quote="MCNPA" post=400609][quote="lawmanfan" post=400605][quote="MCNPA" post=400593][quote="fordham96" post=400590]The fact is they are picked where almost every objective person thinks they will finish. They have no pre -season All BE players. That doesn't mean they have to finish there. I get that. And I think there is room to move up.

But almost everyone said that the 3 worst teams coming in on paper were Georgetown, DePaul and SJU. All 3 finished at/near the bottom of the BE from previous year and all 3 have roster turnovers with no 5 star recruits coming to make a huge impact. Or in SJU case also lost arguably it's best returning player off a mediocre/bad team.

I always hope for the best. But my expectations go up next year. That is why I want recruiting to pick up.[/quote]

I still think we are being under-ranked this year. We beat Arizona, wvu, Creighton almost twice and were really coming on at the end. We did that without Heron for the most part as he wasn’t a big contributor. Not only that, I think we probably kept playing him a bit too long and probably lost a few because of it as we played better when he went out. Not knocking Heron, he was injured. We also had only Dunn in the backcourt for the most part because Greg Williams had back problems the first half of season. .

We lose Lj who was talented but I think Champagnie can slide into his role a bit this year. That said; we are a lot deeper everywhere else. We have a ton more backcourt talent and depth that are more ready to play Mike Anderson:’s style. We have added front-court talent and depth and talent as well which we had none of last year:

I don’t think we will run into the same problems as last year where several of our starters aren’t ready to Play cma’s system. I also think Posh will have a big impact as a guard for us as we didn’t have a player like him last year. Dunn shares some of his strengths, but Posh can score and distribute more. Toro in the middle is big for us as is Moore who should add some skill up front over guys like Spears and Steere who were not cut out for this level.

I think we finish somewhere in the 4-7th range if we are looking at tiers. I think we have very good coach, style and the depth to finally play how we want to.[/quote]

I agree with this analysis on paper but it requires a fair amount of projection and assumption. If it works out (which I think it may and hope it does) then SJU can be somewhere in the middle of the conference - which could be anywhere from 5-8, it should be a pretty narrow range in terms of w/l. If it doesn't, then 9th is the right spot. Could be 10th if Leitao (who is awful) manages not to make too much less of the talent he has.

That's also the answer to usguard - rankings do not always equal production, and even if the players can play, some coaches manage to make lemons out of lemonade while others make lemonade out of lemons. I expect SJU to finish ahead of DePaul.[/quote]

It’s less of a bold presumption than the rankings propelling. UConn to a top tier program when they haven’t been able to finish higher than 5th in the AAC. I think CMA at the helm with our depth is going to cause problems. All of these are projections and assumptions.[/quote]

Come on. UCONN's talent level is significantly better than SJU and no objective person thinks otherwise. And their recruiting class was much better. They were better than SJU last year. And don't give me conference strength. UCONN would not have lost twice to a depleted Georgetown team let alone gone 5-13 in BE. They are better on paper. I mean seriously on paper you think SJU should be picked higher than UCONN?
 
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[quote="Mike Zaun" post=400594]That big 2011 season, on PTI Michael Wilbon said we were a darkhorse Elite 8 or Final Four team. We were a topic on the show after all those huge upsets of top 10 teams. I believe Lavin's 4th year, one pundit said darkhorse Sweet 16 or Elite 8 team based on talent. In the Big East preseason coaches polls, they may not have picked us 1-3, but all the coaches raved about our talent level and some sports writers or bloggers said we were a darkhorse Big East champ with Mullin's best team. I'm just saying that I hope the reverse is true...we did poorly with hype. Now we have almost none with much less recruiting talent on paper. Hopefully we shock people. Posh needs to be a big part of our success if we are to be bubble type team IMO.[/quote]

No they didn't. The stuff about PTI as you said was while the season was going on.

Pitino admitted that when he picked them first he threw them a bone. It was not realistic and no one had them even as a NCAA team. It is just not true to say people thought SJU was going to be as good as they turned out to be be. Sorry it is made up fiction after the fact.
 
This is my point about people who don't want to give Lavin credit for that season. Because they say he inherited such a "great roster." Really? Who thought it was great BEFORE the season? Who had SJU projected as an NCAA team let alone a 5 or 6 seed BEFORE the season? Nobody. it is all made up 2020 hindsight.
 
Fordham96 wrote:
NCJohnnie wrote: That first Lavin year people were saying that (dark horse final four or elite eight) towards the end of the year after all those great victories when we were actually ranked 15.
Who knows how far we'd have gone but for DJ's injury. Definitely overachieved pre-season expectations as I hope and believe we will this year.


OK you do understand we are talking about pre-season predictions. Btw SJU was picked 6th by coaches prior to 10-11 but that came with a huge asterisk. If you remember Pitino picked them 1st and that was a bit of a joke. It skewed their ranking considerably. At least one coach picked them 13th that year. The real pre-season probably was 10th or 11th if you either take out Pitino''s vote or if he gave a more realistic vote.

Yes I did understand that. It was the point of my post that we weren't picked high in preseason polls other than in Mullin's last year where most had us third or fourth preseason.
 
[quote="fordham96" post=400612][quote="MCNPA" post=400609][quote="lawmanfan" post=400605][quote="MCNPA" post=400593][quote="fordham96" post=400590]The fact is they are picked where almost every objective person thinks they will finish. They have no pre -season All BE players. That doesn't mean they have to finish there. I get that. And I think there is room to move up.

But almost everyone said that the 3 worst teams coming in on paper were Georgetown, DePaul and SJU. All 3 finished at/near the bottom of the BE from previous year and all 3 have roster turnovers with no 5 star recruits coming to make a huge impact. Or in SJU case also lost arguably it's best returning player off a mediocre/bad team.

I always hope for the best. But my expectations go up next year. That is why I want recruiting to pick up.[/quote]

I still think we are being under-ranked this year. We beat Arizona, wvu, Creighton almost twice and were really coming on at the end. We did that without Heron for the most part as he wasn’t a big contributor. Not only that, I think we probably kept playing him a bit too long and probably lost a few because of it as we played better when he went out. Not knocking Heron, he was injured. We also had only Dunn in the backcourt for the most part because Greg Williams had back problems the first half of season. .

We lose Lj who was talented but I think Champagnie can slide into his role a bit this year. That said; we are a lot deeper everywhere else. We have a ton more backcourt talent and depth that are more ready to play Mike Anderson:’s style. We have added front-court talent and depth and talent as well which we had none of last year:

I don’t think we will run into the same problems as last year where several of our starters aren’t ready to Play cma’s system. I also think Posh will have a big impact as a guard for us as we didn’t have a player like him last year. Dunn shares some of his strengths, but Posh can score and distribute more. Toro in the middle is big for us as is Moore who should add some skill up front over guys like Spears and Steere who were not cut out for this level.

I think we finish somewhere in the 4-7th range if we are looking at tiers. I think we have very good coach, style and the depth to finally play how we want to.[/quote]

I agree with this analysis on paper but it requires a fair amount of projection and assumption. If it works out (which I think it may and hope it does) then SJU can be somewhere in the middle of the conference - which could be anywhere from 5-8, it should be a pretty narrow range in terms of w/l. If it doesn't, then 9th is the right spot. Could be 10th if Leitao (who is awful) manages not to make too much less of the talent he has.

That's also the answer to usguard - rankings do not always equal production, and even if the players can play, some coaches manage to make lemons out of lemonade while others make lemonade out of lemons. I expect SJU to finish ahead of DePaul.[/quote]

It’s less of a bold presumption than the rankings propelling. UConn to a top tier program when they haven’t been able to finish higher than 5th in the AAC. I think CMA at the helm with our depth is going to cause problems. All of these are projections and assumptions.[/quote]

Come on. UCONN's talent level is significantly better than SJU and no objective person thinks otherwise. And their recruiting class was much better. They were better than SJU last year. And don't give me conference strength. UCONN would not have lost twice to a depleted Georgetown team let alone gone 5-13 in BE. They are better on paper. I mean seriously on paper you think SJU should be picked higher than UCONN?[/quote]

I saw UConn play several times last year. We would have beaten them. They certainly have more talent this year overall but not the coaching nor any real prior results. You missed my point . My point was that these rankings are based on predictions and assumptions and I was just responding to lawman with a counterpoint. UConn has to prove it just like we do. On paper they’re good talent-wise. Last year on paper Arizona, Creighton, WVU were also much better and more talented than us. Styles change things as does coaching and depth.

Our slide in Big East play had less to do with talent and more to do with our team not being on the same page and injuries: I don’t see those same shortfalls this year. I don’t care about talent on paper. There a more to it than that.
 
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Btw here are all the pre-season top 25 polls for the 2010-11 season including all the magazines. Not one had SJU in top 25. Not one. And again remove Pitino's first place vote and SJU is not even top 10 BE pre-season. It is fiction to now say we all knew this team was going to be good therefore anyone could've coached them. Keep in mind if that were true Norm Roberts, who SJU administration LOVED, would never have been fired if they thought for 1 moment he had a Sweet 16/Top 25 team coming back. He was fired because they thought he had another 6-12 type season in store borderline NIT team and then he would have had to restock the roster and start over again and that wasn't going to fly for another season.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–11_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_rankings
 
[quote="MCNPA" post=400616][quote="fordham96" post=400612][quote="MCNPA" post=400609][quote="lawmanfan" post=400605][quote="MCNPA" post=400593][quote="fordham96" post=400590]The fact is they are picked where almost every objective person thinks they will finish. They have no pre -season All BE players. That doesn't mean they have to finish there. I get that. And I think there is room to move up.

But almost everyone said that the 3 worst teams coming in on paper were Georgetown, DePaul and SJU. All 3 finished at/near the bottom of the BE from previous year and all 3 have roster turnovers with no 5 star recruits coming to make a huge impact. Or in SJU case also lost arguably it's best returning player off a mediocre/bad team.

I always hope for the best. But my expectations go up next year. That is why I want recruiting to pick up.[/quote]

I still think we are being under-ranked this year. We beat Arizona, wvu, Creighton almost twice and were really coming on at the end. We did that without Heron for the most part as he wasn’t a big contributor. Not only that, I think we probably kept playing him a bit too long and probably lost a few because of it as we played better when he went out. Not knocking Heron, he was injured. We also had only Dunn in the backcourt for the most part because Greg Williams had back problems the first half of season. .

We lose Lj who was talented but I think Champagnie can slide into his role a bit this year. That said; we are a lot deeper everywhere else. We have a ton more backcourt talent and depth that are more ready to play Mike Anderson:’s style. We have added front-court talent and depth and talent as well which we had none of last year:

I don’t think we will run into the same problems as last year where several of our starters aren’t ready to Play cma’s system. I also think Posh will have a big impact as a guard for us as we didn’t have a player like him last year. Dunn shares some of his strengths, but Posh can score and distribute more. Toro in the middle is big for us as is Moore who should add some skill up front over guys like Spears and Steere who were not cut out for this level.

I think we finish somewhere in the 4-7th range if we are looking at tiers. I think we have very good coach, style and the depth to finally play how we want to.[/quote]

I agree with this analysis on paper but it requires a fair amount of projection and assumption. If it works out (which I think it may and hope it does) then SJU can be somewhere in the middle of the conference - which could be anywhere from 5-8, it should be a pretty narrow range in terms of w/l. If it doesn't, then 9th is the right spot. Could be 10th if Leitao (who is awful) manages not to make too much less of the talent he has.

That's also the answer to usguard - rankings do not always equal production, and even if the players can play, some coaches manage to make lemons out of lemonade while others make lemonade out of lemons. I expect SJU to finish ahead of DePaul.[/quote]

It’s less of a bold presumption than the rankings propelling. UConn to a top tier program when they haven’t been able to finish higher than 5th in the AAC. I think CMA at the helm with our depth is going to cause problems. All of these are projections and assumptions.[/quote]

Come on. UCONN's talent level is significantly better than SJU and no objective person thinks otherwise. And their recruiting class was much better. They were better than SJU last year. And don't give me conference strength. UCONN would not have lost twice to a depleted Georgetown team let alone gone 5-13 in BE. They are better on paper. I mean seriously on paper you think SJU should be picked higher than UCONN?[/quote]

I saw UConn play several times last year. We would have beaten them. They certainly have more talent this year overall but not the coaching nor any real prior results. You missed my point . My point was that these rankings are based on predictions and assumptions and I was just responding to lawman with a counterpoint. UConn has to prove it just like we do. On paper they’re good talent-wise. Last year on paper Arizona, Creighton, WVU were also much better and more talented than us. Styles change things as does coaching and depth.

Our slide in Big East play had less to do with talent and more to do with our team not being on the same page and injuries: I don’t see those same shortfalls this year. I don’t care about talent on paper. There a more to it than that.[/quote]

Simple question, would you rather have UCONNs roster coming into this season or SJUs?

If you give any other answer besides UCONN you're lying.
 
[quote="fordham96" post=400617]Btw here are all the pre-season top 25 polls for the 2010-11 season including all the magazines. Not one had SJU in top 25. Not one. And again remove Pitino's first place vote and SJU is not even top 10 BE pre-season. It is fiction to now say we all knew this team was going to be good therefore anyone could've coached them. Keep in mind if that were true Norm Roberts, who SJU administration LOVED, would never have been fired if they thought for 1 moment he had a Sweet 16/Top 25 team coming back. He was fired because they thought he had another 6-12 type season in store borderline NIT team and then he would have had to restock the roster and start over again and that wasn't going to fly for another season.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–11_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_rankings[/quote]
Norm was fired because he NEVER had a winning record in the years before he coached us...and he never had a winning record with us. Coach Anderson has a longer leash because of his track record.
 
[quote="fordham96" post=400581][quote="EliteBaller K" post=400569][quote="otis" post=400568]It is hard to believe that the team that finishes 9th place In the 11 team Big East Conference would have a winning record.[/quote]

If this team, 10 or 11 deep finishes 9th when before the season everyone was hyped for this season, then maybe we'll never be good again.
Me personally, I believe that we'll be a top 5 or 6 team in the b.e.[/quote]

What does 10 or 11 deep mean?[/quote]

When the backups come in we lose nothing or very little.
 
[quote="fordham96" post=400619]

Simple question, would you rather have UCONNs roster coming into this season or SJUs?

If you give any other answer besides UCONN you're lying.[/quote]

This wasn't directed toward me, but if you hooked me up to a polygraph and asked which roster I'd want more, I'd pick St. John's and wouldn't get caught in a lie.

I've had some coaching envy for sure, but I don't think in all the years I've been a fan that I've ever had specific roster envy. I've had some program envy over the years here and there, but even that has never included UConn. I've never envied a program that I despise.
 
[quote="fordham96" post=400614]This is my point about people who don't want to give Lavin credit for that season. Because they say he inherited such a "great roster." Really? Who thought it was great BEFORE the season? Who had SJU projected as an NCAA team let alone a 5 or 6 seed BEFORE the season? Nobody. it is all made up 2020 hindsight.[/quote]

Credit to Lavin or Dunlap? If no Dunlap are we sure that they wouldn't be the same crappy team?
Yeah you could say give Lavin credit for hiring Dunlap.
 
[quote="EliteBaller K" post=400633][quote="fordham96" post=400614]This is my point about people who don't want to give Lavin credit for that season. Because they say he inherited such a "great roster." Really? Who thought it was great BEFORE the season? Who had SJU projected as an NCAA team let alone a 5 or 6 seed BEFORE the season? Nobody. it is all made up 2020 hindsight.[/quote]

Credit to Lavin or Dunlap? If no Dunlap are we sure that they wouldn't be the same crappy team?
Yeah you could say give Lavin credit for hiring Dunlap.[/quote]

Dunlap could coach circles around Lavin in his sleep, but I think that team needed Lavin's personality and undying support. Definitely a combination.
 
[quote="EliteBaller K" post=400633][quote="fordham96" post=400614]This is my point about people who don't want to give Lavin credit for that season. Because they say he inherited such a "great roster." Really? Who thought it was great BEFORE the season? Who had SJU projected as an NCAA team let alone a 5 or 6 seed BEFORE the season? Nobody. it is all made up 2020 hindsight.[/quote]

Credit to Lavin or Dunlap? If no Dunlap are we sure that they wouldn't be the same crappy team?
Yeah you could say give Lavin credit for hiring Dunlap.[/quote]

Why not give Lavin credit period? Lavin has had some form of success without Dunlap at his side. To continue to push such tale is quite disingenuous.
 
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CMA is a very good coach, but he's not a miracle worker. There are a lot of unanswered questions about this team; the talent level, the chemistry with the newcomers, etc etc. If this team clicks, like Lavin's first team, then we will exceed most prognosticator's expectations, finish near the middle of the league and be a bubble team. If not, we'll finish right around where we are projected to finish. We'll play hard as hell every single game, but we will come up just a little short more often then not. And if the later happens, that's no knock on CMA, there's only so much he can do with the talent he has.
 
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Agreed, the talent is limited with this year's team. A middle of the pack finish in the Big East would be acceptable, so long as the squad shows continuous improvement this season. The sky is the limit for Gregg Williams Jr. I really hope he makes this his team.
 
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