Big East Media Day
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[quote="otis" post=400568]It is hard to believe that the team that finishes 9th place In the 11 team Big East Conference would have a winning record.[/quote]
If this team, 10 or 11 deep finishes 9th when before the season everyone was hyped for this season, then maybe we'll never be good again.
Me personally, I believe that we'll be a top 5 or 6 team in the b.e.
If this team, 10 or 11 deep finishes 9th when before the season everyone was hyped for this season, then maybe we'll never be good again.
Me personally, I believe that we'll be a top 5 or 6 team in the b.e.
JohnnyFever
Active member
The pundits used to rate us highly with all the talent we had under Lavin and Mullin but then we almost always underperformed. Now under CMA, I'd say he overperformed a bit in year 1 with a pretty poor roster in terms of overall talent compared to the rest of our conference. It will probably take several years of performing above expectations to get credit again from coaches. If we can be on the bubble this year, then next year I'm sure coaches will have us right at 4-5 and a tourney berth expected. Many forget we beat a ranked Arizona team and a top 25 worthy WVU team with mostly bench players in year 1. We had a great OOC performance. The big problem was we took a big hit going into conference play and our players who were dominant vs. OOC were overpowered by Big East teams. Guys like Cole and Posh should be able to contribute right away and hopefully Dunn and Champ take steps forward this year. When we need scoring, I think having Posh, Dunn, and Champ on the floor at the same time will be solid. Posh and Dunn slashing can beget tons of and-1's and fouls drawn.
Not swayed by Big East coaches poll. I still think if we stay healthy we can finish in middle of BE (5, 6 or 7) and compete for an NCAA bid. BIG East will be tough but no reason we can't finish ahead of Butler, Xavier & Marquette as well as Depaul & Gtown.
beast of the east
Active member
[quote="otis" post=400568]It is hard to believe that the team that finishes 9th place In the 11 team Big East Conference would have a winning record.[/quote]
Actually, this isn't far off from where I figured we would be. You are right about that, and a lot will depend on how well we do in the OOC schedule. I believe it is very likely we win 7-9 games in conference, with 10 being an absolutely successful high water mark. Ten wins and running the table in the OOC schedule, and winning 2 BET games would put us right there for a bid. I think that's unlikely.
Obviously 7-13 in conference is aligned with a 9th-10th place finish and would be a big disappointment. However, if we go 7-0 OOC, we could squeak to an NIT bid. If I had to bet, I'd say we show marked improvement over last year, go 8-12 in conference, 6-1 OOC, and squeak to a 14-13 record overall. That may get us an NIT bid, but maybe not.
I don't think it's fair to expect that JC become the centerpiece of our offense, and replace LJ as the go to guy. Don't get me wrong - I think he is a better ballplayer overall, but I think he brings quality across the board, but not as an offensive goto guy. I think of him as a DJ Kennedy, who perhaps had his best season senior year, as a mortar type of guy to Hardy and Brownlee's scoring. Our season essentially ended with DJ's injury, and I think on this team JC can be the same type of player.
Actually, this isn't far off from where I figured we would be. You are right about that, and a lot will depend on how well we do in the OOC schedule. I believe it is very likely we win 7-9 games in conference, with 10 being an absolutely successful high water mark. Ten wins and running the table in the OOC schedule, and winning 2 BET games would put us right there for a bid. I think that's unlikely.
Obviously 7-13 in conference is aligned with a 9th-10th place finish and would be a big disappointment. However, if we go 7-0 OOC, we could squeak to an NIT bid. If I had to bet, I'd say we show marked improvement over last year, go 8-12 in conference, 6-1 OOC, and squeak to a 14-13 record overall. That may get us an NIT bid, but maybe not.
I don't think it's fair to expect that JC become the centerpiece of our offense, and replace LJ as the go to guy. Don't get me wrong - I think he is a better ballplayer overall, but I think he brings quality across the board, but not as an offensive goto guy. I think of him as a DJ Kennedy, who perhaps had his best season senior year, as a mortar type of guy to Hardy and Brownlee's scoring. Our season essentially ended with DJ's injury, and I think on this team JC can be the same type of player.
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I think some folks are underestimating how tough the league is. My guess is it is going to break into tiers. The top tier will be either 1-3 or 1-4, and the second tier will be something like 4-8, 4-9, 5-8 or 5-9. Of course 9, 10 or 11 could jump up on anyone in any given game, that's the nature of conference play, and this is likely going to be a weird year in college basketball (if there is college basketball) just like in every other sport.
If SJU can gel early and find enough reliable scoring then they can get into the middle tier and what's going to separate the top of that tier from the bottom is probably going to be no more than a game or two.
If it takes time to find what rotations work or the scoring isn't there, then I think 9 is a fair prediction.
Agree with Otis that without a full non-conference slate it would be tough to finish 9 AND have a winning record overall, although I don't think it's impossible.
If SJU can gel early and find enough reliable scoring then they can get into the middle tier and what's going to separate the top of that tier from the bottom is probably going to be no more than a game or two.
If it takes time to find what rotations work or the scoring isn't there, then I think 9 is a fair prediction.
Agree with Otis that without a full non-conference slate it would be tough to finish 9 AND have a winning record overall, although I don't think it's impossible.
JohnnyFever
Active member
Tier 1:
Nova, Creighton, possibly UConn
Tier 2:
Everyone else including us but probably have PC near higher end of T2
Tier 3:
G'Town and DePaul
Nova, Creighton, possibly UConn
Tier 2:
Everyone else including us but probably have PC near higher end of T2
Tier 3:
G'Town and DePaul
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JohnnyFever
Active member
[quote="usguard" post=400579]How are we in Tier 2 with getting picked for ninth and DePaul having a better recruiting class unless I am wrong[/quote]
Tier 1: Sure things or near sure things
Tier 2: Solid teams but lots of questions
Tier 3: Sure things to be bad
Tier 1: Sure things or near sure things
Tier 2: Solid teams but lots of questions
Tier 3: Sure things to be bad
[quote="EliteBaller K" post=400569][quote="otis" post=400568]It is hard to believe that the team that finishes 9th place In the 11 team Big East Conference would have a winning record.[/quote]
If this team, 10 or 11 deep finishes 9th when before the season everyone was hyped for this season, then maybe we'll never be good again.
Me personally, I believe that we'll be a top 5 or 6 team in the b.e.[/quote]
What does 10 or 11 deep mean?
If this team, 10 or 11 deep finishes 9th when before the season everyone was hyped for this season, then maybe we'll never be good again.
Me personally, I believe that we'll be a top 5 or 6 team in the b.e.[/quote]
What does 10 or 11 deep mean?
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=400572]The pundits used to rate us highly with all the talent we had under Lavin and Mullin but then we almost always underperformed. Now under CMA, I'd say he overperformed a bit in year 1 with a pretty poor roster in terms of overall talent compared to the rest of our conference. It will probably take several years of performing above expectations to get credit again from coaches. If we can be on the bubble this year, then next year I'm sure coaches will have us right at 4-5 and a tourney berth expected. Many forget we beat a ranked Arizona team and a top 25 worthy WVU team with mostly bench players in year 1. We had a great OOC performance. The big problem was we took a big hit going into conference play and our players who were dominant vs. OOC were overpowered by Big East teams. Guys like Cole and Posh should be able to contribute right away and hopefully Dunn and Champ take steps forward this year. When we need scoring, I think having Posh, Dunn, and Champ on the floor at the same time will be solid. Posh and Dunn slashing can beget tons of and-1's and fouls drawn.[/quote]
Really, pundits rated us high under previous coaches. How many times and when?
Really, pundits rated us high under previous coaches. How many times and when?
JohnnyFever
Active member
I remember being picked as a darkhorse Big East title contender, darkhorse Final Four contender, darkhorse Elite 8 contender, top 3 Big East hype, etc under both Lavin and Mullin. They would rave about our top recruits, especially under Lavin. And the best we ever did under Mullin/Lavin was squeak into the NCAA Tourney by the skin of our teeth. Then an instant exit. In the Big East, when's the last time we finished 4th or better? I'm just saying the reason we were picked 9th is not because we are that bad...but because coaches are not sold on us since we still have that stink of underperforming those years. I just hope CMA can keep us competitive, because if we have another 8-11 type finish, we will all but solidify our place as a bottom feeder regular. Just want to make tourneys again and see us discussed nationally. Must get out to solid start in conference. Another awful start will sink us.
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=400583]I remember being picked as a darkhorse Big East title contender, darkhorse Final Four contender, darkhorse Elite 8 contender, top 3 Big East hype, etc under both Lavin and Mullin. They would rave about our top recruits, especially under Lavin. And the best we ever did under Mullin/Lavin was squeak into the NCAA Tourney by the skin of our teeth. Then an instant exit. In the Big East, when's the last time we finished 4th or better? I'm just saying the reason we were picked 9th is not because we are that bad...but because coaches are not sold on us since we still have that stink of underperforming those years. I just hope CMA can keep us competitive, because if we have another 8-11 type finish, we will all but solidify our place as a bottom feeder regular. Just want to make tourneys again and see us discussed nationally. Must get out to solid start in conference. Another awful start will sink us.[/quote]
Speaking in absolutes again, eh?
Speaking in absolutes again, eh?
I think we are picked 9 th because of talent on paper. None of our players were top 150 recruits if I’m not mistaken.
Of course winning isn’t just a collection of talent. Have to factor in chemistry, player development, conditioning, depth,Will to win, etc. These are CMAs strengths. We shall see.
Of course winning isn’t just a collection of talent. Have to factor in chemistry, player development, conditioning, depth,Will to win, etc. These are CMAs strengths. We shall see.
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[quote="Mike Zaun" post=400583]I remember being picked as a darkhorse Big East title contender, darkhorse Final Four contender, darkhorse Elite 8 contender, top 3 Big East hype, etc under both Lavin and Mullin. They would rave about our top recruits, especially under Lavin. And the best we ever did under Mullin/Lavin was squeak into the NCAA Tourney by the skin of our teeth. Then an instant exit. In the Big East, when's the last time we finished 4th or better? I'm just saying the reason we were picked 9th is not because we are that bad...but because coaches are not sold on us since we still have that stink of underperforming those years. I just hope CMA can keep us competitive, because if we have another 8-11 type finish, we will all but solidify our place as a bottom feeder regular. Just want to make tourneys again and see us discussed nationally. Must get out to solid start in conference. Another awful start will sink us.[/quote]
When did any of that happen?
Mullin's last year they were picked to finish 4th hardly dark horse Final 4. That was his most hyped team as Shamorie was pre-season POY.
Lavin's 4th year was arguably his most talented team and to me the most talented SJU team in a long time. They were picked to finish 5th. Guess what they finished in a 3 way tie for 3rd and were seeded 5th at BE Tourney. For the record that was his most disappointing team because they should have been better than 10-8.
Where or when were these really hyped teams, did I miss something?
When did any of that happen?
Mullin's last year they were picked to finish 4th hardly dark horse Final 4. That was his most hyped team as Shamorie was pre-season POY.
Lavin's 4th year was arguably his most talented team and to me the most talented SJU team in a long time. They were picked to finish 5th. Guess what they finished in a 3 way tie for 3rd and were seeded 5th at BE Tourney. For the record that was his most disappointing team because they should have been better than 10-8.
Where or when were these really hyped teams, did I miss something?
The fact is they are picked where almost every objective person thinks they will finish. They have no pre -season All BE players. That doesn't mean they have to finish there. I get that. And I think there is room to move up.
But almost everyone said that the 3 worst teams coming in on paper were Georgetown, DePaul and SJU. All 3 finished at/near the bottom of the BE from previous year and all 3 have roster turnovers with no 5 star recruits coming to make a huge impact. Or in SJU case also lost arguably it's best returning player off a mediocre/bad team.
I always hope for the best. But my expectations go up next year. That is why I want recruiting to pick up.
But almost everyone said that the 3 worst teams coming in on paper were Georgetown, DePaul and SJU. All 3 finished at/near the bottom of the BE from previous year and all 3 have roster turnovers with no 5 star recruits coming to make a huge impact. Or in SJU case also lost arguably it's best returning player off a mediocre/bad team.
I always hope for the best. But my expectations go up next year. That is why I want recruiting to pick up.
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[quote="fordham96" post=400590]The fact is they are picked where almost every objective person thinks they will finish. They have no pre -season All BE players. That doesn't mean they have to finish there. I get that. And I think there is room to move up.
But almost everyone said that the 3 worst teams coming in on paper were Georgetown, DePaul and SJU. All 3 finished at/near the bottom of the BE from previous year and all 3 have roster turnovers with no 5 star recruits coming to make a huge impact. Or in SJU case also lost arguably it's best returning player off a mediocre/bad team.
I always hope for the best. But my expectations go up next year. That is why I want recruiting to pick up.[/quote]
I still think we are being under-ranked this year. We beat Arizona, wvu, Creighton almost twice and were really coming on at the end. We did that without Heron for the most part as he wasn’t a big contributor. Not only that, I think we probably kept playing him a bit too long and probably lost a few because of it as we played better when he went out. Not knocking Heron, he was injured. We also had only Dunn in the backcourt for the most part because Greg Williams had back problems the first half of season. .
We lose Lj who was talented but I think Champagnie can slide into his role a bit this year. That said; we are a lot deeper everywhere else. We have a ton more backcourt talent and depth that are more ready to play Mike Anderson:’s style. We have added front-court talent and depth and talent as well which we had none of last year:
I don’t think we will run into the same problems as last year where several of our starters aren’t ready to Play cma’s system. I also think Posh will have a big impact as a guard for us as we didn’t have a player like him last year. Dunn shares some of his strengths, but Posh can score and distribute more. Toro in the middle is big for us as is Moore who should add some skill up front over guys like Spears and Steere who were not cut out for this level.
I think we finish somewhere in the 4-7th range if we are looking at tiers. I think we have very good coach, style and the depth to finally play how we want to.
But almost everyone said that the 3 worst teams coming in on paper were Georgetown, DePaul and SJU. All 3 finished at/near the bottom of the BE from previous year and all 3 have roster turnovers with no 5 star recruits coming to make a huge impact. Or in SJU case also lost arguably it's best returning player off a mediocre/bad team.
I always hope for the best. But my expectations go up next year. That is why I want recruiting to pick up.[/quote]
I still think we are being under-ranked this year. We beat Arizona, wvu, Creighton almost twice and were really coming on at the end. We did that without Heron for the most part as he wasn’t a big contributor. Not only that, I think we probably kept playing him a bit too long and probably lost a few because of it as we played better when he went out. Not knocking Heron, he was injured. We also had only Dunn in the backcourt for the most part because Greg Williams had back problems the first half of season. .
We lose Lj who was talented but I think Champagnie can slide into his role a bit this year. That said; we are a lot deeper everywhere else. We have a ton more backcourt talent and depth that are more ready to play Mike Anderson:’s style. We have added front-court talent and depth and talent as well which we had none of last year:
I don’t think we will run into the same problems as last year where several of our starters aren’t ready to Play cma’s system. I also think Posh will have a big impact as a guard for us as we didn’t have a player like him last year. Dunn shares some of his strengths, but Posh can score and distribute more. Toro in the middle is big for us as is Moore who should add some skill up front over guys like Spears and Steere who were not cut out for this level.
I think we finish somewhere in the 4-7th range if we are looking at tiers. I think we have very good coach, style and the depth to finally play how we want to.
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JohnnyFever
Active member
That big 2011 season, on PTI Michael Wilbon said we were a darkhorse Elite 8 or Final Four team. We were a topic on the show after all those huge upsets of top 10 teams. I believe Lavin's 4th year, one pundit said darkhorse Sweet 16 or Elite 8 team based on talent. In the Big East preseason coaches polls, they may not have picked us 1-3, but all the coaches raved about our talent level and some sports writers or bloggers said we were a darkhorse Big East champ with Mullin's best team. I'm just saying that I hope the reverse is true...we did poorly with hype. Now we have almost none with much less recruiting talent on paper. Hopefully we shock people. Posh needs to be a big part of our success if we are to be bubble type team IMO.
[quote="MCNPA" post=400593][quote="fordham96" post=400590]The fact is they are picked where almost every objective person thinks they will finish. They have no pre -season All BE players. That doesn't mean they have to finish there. I get that. And I think there is room to move up.
But almost everyone said that the 3 worst teams coming in on paper were Georgetown, DePaul and SJU. All 3 finished at/near the bottom of the BE from previous year and all 3 have roster turnovers with no 5 star recruits coming to make a huge impact. Or in SJU case also lost arguably it's best returning player off a mediocre/bad team.
I always hope for the best. But my expectations go up next year. That is why I want recruiting to pick up.[/quote]
I still think we are being under-ranked this year. We beat Arizona, wvu, Creighton almost twice and were really coming on at the end. We did that without Heron for the most part as he wasn’t a big contributor. Not only that, I think we probably kept playing him a bit too long and probably lost a few because of it as we played better when he went out. Not knocking Heron, he was injured. We also had only Dunn in the backcourt for the most part because Greg Williams had back problems the first half of season. .
We lose Lj who was talented but I think Champagnie can slide into his role a bit this year. That said; we are a lot deeper everywhere else. We have a ton more backcourt talent and depth that are more ready to play Mike Anderson:’s style. We have added front-court talent and depth and talent as well which we had none of last year:
I don’t think we will run into the same problems as last year where several of our starters aren’t ready to Play cma’s system. I also think Posh will have a big impact as a guard for us as we didn’t have a player like him last year. Dunn shares some of his strengths, but Posh can score and distribute more. Toro in the middle is big for us as is Moore who should add some skill up front over guys like Spears and Steere who were not cut out for this level.
I think we finish somewhere in the 4-7th range if we are looking at tiers. I think we have very good coach, style and the depth to finally play how we want to.[/quote]
Great analysis MCNPA. The so called pundits who don't follow the team as closely as the rest of agree we'll bottom feed yet again this year. I think most of us can agree coach gets the most out of his players. No sub 500 record in nearly 20 years of big time coaching says something...especially looking at last year's team that would have been about .300 with most any other coach.
But almost everyone said that the 3 worst teams coming in on paper were Georgetown, DePaul and SJU. All 3 finished at/near the bottom of the BE from previous year and all 3 have roster turnovers with no 5 star recruits coming to make a huge impact. Or in SJU case also lost arguably it's best returning player off a mediocre/bad team.
I always hope for the best. But my expectations go up next year. That is why I want recruiting to pick up.[/quote]
I still think we are being under-ranked this year. We beat Arizona, wvu, Creighton almost twice and were really coming on at the end. We did that without Heron for the most part as he wasn’t a big contributor. Not only that, I think we probably kept playing him a bit too long and probably lost a few because of it as we played better when he went out. Not knocking Heron, he was injured. We also had only Dunn in the backcourt for the most part because Greg Williams had back problems the first half of season. .
We lose Lj who was talented but I think Champagnie can slide into his role a bit this year. That said; we are a lot deeper everywhere else. We have a ton more backcourt talent and depth that are more ready to play Mike Anderson:’s style. We have added front-court talent and depth and talent as well which we had none of last year:
I don’t think we will run into the same problems as last year where several of our starters aren’t ready to Play cma’s system. I also think Posh will have a big impact as a guard for us as we didn’t have a player like him last year. Dunn shares some of his strengths, but Posh can score and distribute more. Toro in the middle is big for us as is Moore who should add some skill up front over guys like Spears and Steere who were not cut out for this level.
I think we finish somewhere in the 4-7th range if we are looking at tiers. I think we have very good coach, style and the depth to finally play how we want to.[/quote]
Great analysis MCNPA. The so called pundits who don't follow the team as closely as the rest of agree we'll bottom feed yet again this year. I think most of us can agree coach gets the most out of his players. No sub 500 record in nearly 20 years of big time coaching says something...especially looking at last year's team that would have been about .300 with most any other coach.