Big East Expansion

[quote="Adam" post=307784][quote="Room112" post=307773]How is there risk though? If UConn joins and leaves after five years, it's not like that will break the league apart.[/quote]



If UConn joins for a few years, turns into the new Nova, and then leaves after a few years... all while stealing our recruits... then they'd be a terrible addition.

That's a lot of "ifs" though, and I don't see it happening. Worst case I think is they become one of 2-3 league leaders (along with a rotation of Georgetown, Marquette, Nova, Xavier... and us), and then leave after 10-15 years. In that case, definitely not the end of the world and we could benefit (more $$$). I assume if they're added, they'd need to agree to some sort of an exit fee.

This is Nova's league and everybody else in the conference is recruiting well. Nearly all 10 of our schools are recruiting better now than we did 6-7 years ago when UConn was dominate. I'm not concerned with UConn coming in and running things like a lot of people here appear to be.[/quote]

I believe the schools are recruiting better now because it is an equal conference without football schools who have an advantage. I think basketball schools and football schools in the same conference is like humans and dinasours living together. And the football schools are the dinasours.
 
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If you look at total Big East history and not just the last twenty years, it’s not a coincidence that SJU, Villanova, Providence and Seton Hall went to the Final Four before the Big East had a football league and now Villanova and has won two NCs since they went away. At the same time Providence and Seton Hall are once again relevant every year and Xavier had a one seed.

Money rules and maybe change is coming but I hope the current BE members cash in big time in the short term because there might be nasty consequences.
 
[quote="Room112" post=307773]How is there risk though? If UConn joins and leaves after five years, it's not like that will break the league apart.[/quote]

The risks are already well laid out. They suck off of the established schools for their own benefit but don't add anything. This stuff about yukon being worth more etc is just unfounded assumptions and also looks at yukon of the past not the present. They do not command a media market. They are part of existing markets already shared by other member schools: Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall and yukon recruits the same areas as existing member schools, complete with dirty tricks and all of the graft, corruption and scum that even the SEC blushes at and the ACC even during their power grab would not touch with a 10' pole.

Right there a major part of their assumed value, already belongs to the Big East and bringing them in would have to be weighed in terms of how much it sucks from the other schools and then subtracted, to be accurately weighted. In the balance it is at best a negligible net gain at the expense of existing member schools (St John's probably the most to lose in this scenario). In the bigger picture it is not even worth consideration.

They also simply don't fit the profile. The schools in the Big East have a profile with shared interests. What makes Yukon so special that they need to be added and break the profile of all of the other schools and immediately come in with a stronger position due to limitless taxpayer funding other members don't have? This isn't some arbitrary consideration. It is something that the power conferences factor. If we take Yukon we are acting weak like the AAC not strong like the ACC. We have a profile and we build that. It has worked out way better than anyone expected. Now some people look at Yukon with big eyes and it is just foolishness. The AAC is a conglomerate of schools that other conferences didn't want for profile, existing market share or other reasons. Even in that conference Yukon is not loved.
 
[quote="IDRAFT" post=307786][quote="Adam" post=307784][quote="Room112" post=307773]How is there risk though? If UConn joins and leaves after five years, it's not like that will break the league apart.[/quote]



If UConn joins for a few years, turns into the new Nova, and then leaves after a few years... all while stealing our recruits... then they'd be a terrible addition.

That's a lot of "ifs" though, and I don't see it happening. Worst case I think is they become one of 2-3 league leaders (along with a rotation of Georgetown, Marquette, Nova, Xavier... and us), and then leave after 10-15 years. In that case, definitely not the end of the world and we could benefit (more $$$). I assume if they're added, they'd need to agree to some sort of an exit fee.

This is Nova's league and everybody else in the conference is recruiting well. Nearly all 10 of our schools are recruiting better now than we did 6-7 years ago when UConn was dominate. I'm not concerned with UConn coming in and running things like a lot of people here appear to be.[/quote]

I believe the schools are recruiting better now because it is an equal conference without football schools who have an advantage. I think basketball schools and football schools in the same conference is like humans and dinasours living together. And the football schools are the dinasours.[/quote]

True, but Syracuse, Louisville, WVU, Pitt, Rutgers, Miami, BC, ND, Cincy, etc etc are never coming back. I think we'd be fine with one football school (if you can even call them that after the last few years).

UConn is already recruiting very well, and as long as Hurley is a decent coach that won't change.
 
[quote="IDRAFT" post=307788]If you look at total Big East history and not just the last twenty years, it’s not a coincidence that SJU, Villanova, Providence and Seton Hall went to the Final Four before the Big East had a football league and now Villanova and has won two NCs since they went away. At the same time Providence and Seton Hall are once again relevant every year and Xavier had a one seed.

Money rules and maybe change is coming but I hope the current BE members cash in big time in the short term because there might be nasty consequences.[/quote]

Exactly, let's not repeat the mistake of the past, if we actually have a say in this matter. UConn is toxic, and SJU fans should remember the past unethical recruiting by UConn at our expense.
 
[quote="Paul Massell" post=307792][quote="Room112" post=307773]How is there risk though? If UConn joins and leaves after five years, it's not like that will break the league apart.[/quote]

The risks are already well laid out. They suck off of the established schools for their own benefit but don't add anything. This stuff about yukon being worth more etc is just unfounded assumptions and also looks at yukon of the past not the present. They do not command a media market. They are part of existing markets already shared by other member schools: Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall and yukon recruits the same areas as existing member schools, complete with dirty tricks and all of the graft, corruption and scum that even the SEC blushes at and the ACC even during their power grab would not touch with a 10' pole.

Right there a major part of their assumed value, already belongs to the Big East and bringing them in would have to be weighed in terms of how much it sucks from the other schools and then subtracted, to be accurately weighted. In the balance it is at best a negligible net gain at the expense of existing member schools (St John's probably the most to lose in this scenario). In the bigger picture it is not even worth consideration.

They also simply don't fit the profile. The schools in the Big East have a profile with shared interests. What makes Yukon so special that they need to be added and break the profile of all of the other schools and immediately come in with a stronger position due to limitless taxpayer funding other members don't have? This isn't some arbitrary consideration. It is something that the power conferences factor. If we take Yukon we are acting weak like the AAC not strong like the ACC. We have a profile and we build that. It has worked out way better than anyone expected. Now some people look at Yukon with big eyes and it is just foolishness. The AAC is a conglomerate of schools that other conferences didn't want for profile, existing market share or other reasons. Even in that conference Yukon is not loved.[/quote]

It's not just speculation. For example:

https://twitter.com/NJHoopsHaven/status/972506034072969216

https://twitter.com/NJHoopsHaven/status/1055898475722915841

Not sure how much he knows (I assume more than most of us), but I am confident UConn would absolutely increase our TV contract. Expansion has always been about adding value to the TV contract, and our league is no exception.

There's a lot of arguments against them, but I don't think $$$ is one of them.
 
Agree 100% with Paul. UCONN would be a huge mistake. If we add another school (and I don't think we need to), it should NOT be a state school and, most definitely, it should NOT have a major football program. We have a successful homogeneous identity now. Let's not screw it up!
 
Do you all remember how 5 years ago the AAC was seen as a better conference than the Big East? They had 5 teams in the Top 25 (including Louisville, who left) and UConn won the National Championship. The Big East got off to a meh start, and a lot of people didn't think we'd last.

Of course, Big East has enjoyed a massive advantage over that league the last 3-4 years, but with how Memphis and UConn are recruiting they may come back to life. Poach UConn and AAC basketball takes a massive, massive hit.

Not saying we are direct competitors to the AAC (currently we are a power conference while they aren't), but things can change. I rather see UConn find success in the Big East than the AAC.
 
[quote="Adam" post=307798]Do you all remember how 5 years ago the AAC was seen as a better conference than the Big East? They had 5 teams in the Top 25 (including Louisville, who left) and UConn won the National Championship. The Big East got off to a meh start, and a lot of people didn't think we'd last.

Of course, Big East has enjoyed a massive advantage over that league the last 3-4 years, but with how Memphis and UConn are recruiting they may come back to life. Poach UConn and AAC basketball takes a massive, massive hit.

Not saying we are direct competitors to the AAC (currently we are a power conference while they aren't), but things can change. I rather see UConn find success in the Big East than the AAC.[/quote]

Your essential argument is that we should abandon a formula that has worked out better than anyone anticipated and follow one that failed for us and others.
 
[quote="Paul Massell" post=307799][quote="Adam" post=307798]Do you all remember how 5 years ago the AAC was seen as a better conference than the Big East? They had 5 teams in the Top 25 (including Louisville, who left) and UConn won the National Championship. The Big East got off to a meh start, and a lot of people didn't think we'd last.

Of course, Big East has enjoyed a massive advantage over that league the last 3-4 years, but with how Memphis and UConn are recruiting they may come back to life. Poach UConn and AAC basketball takes a massive, massive hit.

Not saying we are direct competitors to the AAC (currently we are a power conference while they aren't), but things can change. I rather see UConn find success in the Big East than the AAC.[/quote]

Your essential argument is that we should abandon a formula that has worked out better than anyone anticipated and follow one that failed for us and others.[/quote]

I don't think that's fair. I'm not advocating we form an alliance with the AAC. Splitting with them was 1000% the correct decision. No question about it.

However, adding the unquestionable best of the AAC (and IMO best candidate period)? That's different. Boosting our TV money? Boosting our conference ranking? An additional game at MSG each year with a heated rival? Sounds fine to me.

I get the backlash against them, I just feel it is going too far. UConn would be the extreme minority (1/11) in our conference, completely different from the old Big East where football ruled all decisions.

We split as soon as teams like Tulane and ECU were invited. That's not happening again.
 
[quote="Adam" post=307801]
I don't think that's fair. I'm not advocating we form an alliance with the AAC. Splitting with them was 1000% the correct decision. No question about it.

However, adding the unquestionable best of the AAC (and IMO best candidate period)? That's different. Boosting our TV money? Boosting our conference ranking? An additional game at MSG each year with a heated rival? Sounds fine to me.

I get the backlash against them, I just feel it is going too far. UConn would be the extreme minority (1/11) in our conference, completely different from the old Big East where football ruled all decisions.

We split as soon as teams like Tulane and ECU were invited. That's not happening again.[/quote]

Unquestionably best is just not true. Several years ago Yukon was briefly the best team in the AAC for basketball but monetarily not the most valuable. Factor in football and they are at or near the bottom and on a continuing downward trajectory. Factor out football and they have been middle of AAC in results. Cincinnati would have to be considered the top of the AAC but in recent years Post Jim Calhoun, several teams in the AAC have been better than Yukon. Ollie's first year was with Calhoun's team. From there it was all downhill even with good to great recruiting classes.

As far as the other stuff, here is my context. Your assumptions are based upon creating a conference that is on equal ground with equal goals of elite conferences. That will never happen for the Big East. It won't happen because ALL the power is elsewhere. The Big East is a power conference in basketball only based upon its current profile. The BE can be a big fish in the basketball pond but that is where it scales. It can be financially successful at that but on scale it looks paltry compared to the football ocean. So we can be a small business that is wildly successful or we can be a wildly successful small business pining away to be larger and then die for not appreciating what we had.

Trying to mix it up even with the AAC would be a losing proposition for the current member schools. So yeah hypothetically you could create a power conference like the AAC has tried to do (and failed), but it would not be made up of St John's Providence Georgetown or Villanova unless they did on donations, a smaller endowment and smaller alumni base, what Yukon couldn't do with a bottomless checkbook: Create a legitimate football team.

I can't think of a single small or private school other than Stanford and Notre Dame that have done well being part of the the football conference power moves. The ones that are thriving right now are outside of that and that is where we should be happy to live.
 
[quote="Paul Massell" post=307814][quote="Adam" post=307801]
I don't think that's fair. I'm not advocating we form an alliance with the AAC. Splitting with them was 1000% the correct decision. No question about it.

However, adding the unquestionable best of the AAC (and IMO best candidate period)? That's different. Boosting our TV money? Boosting our conference ranking? An additional game at MSG each year with a heated rival? Sounds fine to me.

I get the backlash against them, I just feel it is going too far. UConn would be the extreme minority (1/11) in our conference, completely different from the old Big East where football ruled all decisions.

We split as soon as teams like Tulane and ECU were invited. That's not happening again.[/quote]

Unquestionably best is just not true. Several years ago Yukon was briefly the best team in the AAC for basketball but monetarily not the most valuable. Factor in football and they are at or near the bottom and on a continuing downward trajectory. Factor out football and they have been middle of AAC in results. Cincinnati would have to be considered the top of the AAC but in recent years Post Jim Calhoun, several teams in the AAC have been better than Yukon. Ollie's first year was with Calhoun's team. From there it was all downhill even with good to great recruiting classes.

As far as the other stuff, here is my context. Your assumptions are based upon creating a conference that is on equal ground with equal goals of elite conferences. That will never happen for the Big East. It won't happen because ALL the power is elsewhere. The Big East is a power conference in basketball only based upon its current profile. The BE can be a big fish in the basketball pond but that is where it scales. It can be financially successful at that but on scale it looks paltry compared to the football ocean. So we can be a small business that is wildly successful or we can be a wildly successful small business pining away to be larger and then die for not appreciating what we had.

Trying to mix it up even with the AAC would be a losing proposition for the current member schools. So yeah hypothetically you could create a power conference like the AAC has tried to do (and failed), but it would not be made up of St John's Providence Georgetown or Villanova unless they did on donations, a smaller endowment and smaller alumni base, what Yukon couldn't do with a bottomless checkbook: Create a legitimate football team.

I can't think of a single small or private school other than Stanford and Notre Dame that have done well being part of the the football conference power moves. The ones that are thriving right now are outside of that and that is where we should be happy to live.[/quote]

I agree UConn is definitely not the most valuable available school (UCF, Cincy, Memphis, etc), but for us that's a good thing as we just care about basketball. They're easily the most desirable basketball school. I'm well aware they have struggled in recent years, but everything is in place for them to return to form. Excellent recruiting, proven coach, etc.

UConn would be worth far more to Fox than anybody else out there. I don't see how there could be a case for anybody else in terms of $$$. Maybe things change 10-15 years from now, but at least today UConn is way ahead of the other options like Dayton. Fox is calling the shots here, and the Big East presidents will do what makes us the most money. From everything I've read (which I admit isn't definitive), Big East would welcome UConn back. I haven't seen any talk to the contrary (aside from on message boards).

I see where you're getting at with the rest of the post but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think the old Big East model is comparable to adding a single team who is horrendous in football. There's no other football schools coming after UConn. Nobody wants Cincy/Memphis/etc, and they don't want us either. We're not talking about sponsoring football and upgrading the conference to BCS. That would never be a possibility so I'm not concerned.
 
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[quote="Adam" post=307820]
UConn would be worth far more to Fox than anybody else out there. I don't see how there could be a case for anybody else in terms of $$$.[/quote]

That is an assumption but I am not sure that it is true. They don't bring much to the table that doesn't already exist. They also don't have a massive fan base outside of the northeast. They are not a draw in the AAC. I'd have to see some numbers that actually support your assumption. I'm thinking for example that Cincinnati/Xavier is a much bigger game than Cincinnati/Yukon. Even this year being down year for Xavier. Whatever yukon brings why couldn't a Dayton bring more? Creighton was not at the top of lists in the Big East but they have a great fan base and have grown as a program with the Big East. Dayton could be a similar program and fits the profile without any of the baggage.
 
If advertisers are interested in UCONN they don't understand demographics. When you sit near a UCONN fan it's obvious they do not have much discretionary income, or indoor plumbing.
 
[quote="Paul Massell" post=307821][quote="Adam" post=307820]
UConn would be worth far more to Fox than anybody else out there. I don't see how there could be a case for anybody else in terms of $$$.[/quote]

That is an assumption but I am not sure that it is true. They don't bring much to the table that doesn't already exist. They also don't have a massive fan base outside of the northeast. They are not a draw in the AAC. I'd have to see some numbers that actually support your assumption. I'm thinking for example that Cincinnati/Xavier is a much bigger game than Cincinnati/Yukon. Even this year being down year for Xavier. Whatever yukon brings why couldn't a Dayton bring more? Creighton was not at the top of lists in the Big East but they have a great fan base and have grown as a program with the Big East. Dayton could be a similar program and fits the profile without any of the baggage.[/quote]

Well, we know that UConn has 4 titles the past 20 years, and that their women's team has more than that. Prior to moving to NYC/SJU, I lived in NC and sports stores sold UConn apparel. Georgetown is the only current Big East team I remember being relevant in NC (and Butler for a few weeks during their NCAAT runs). I believe UConn has more of a national following than any of us currently (with the possible exception of Nova).

In regards to TV ratings and how much they'd be worth to Fox, it's extremely difficult to find that data. I did a web search and can't find much (aside from their women's team breaking records for women's basketball- which is important). On that same note, it's very difficult to find ratings for anybody in college basketball, let alone comparable ratings (ie how good is an ESPN rating vs FS1?).

At least as far as we're concerned, UConn would be one of our highest attended games of the year. We know that since we always played them at MSG, while the majority of the current Big East we exclusively play at CA. I'm sure they'd draw a lot of fans at schools like Georgetown, Providence, and Hall as well.

Aside from that, due to the lack of data all I can go by is what people like Jerry Carino are saying. He's an AP writer and flat out stated that Big East/Fox want UConn. Val's comments from a few days ago also appear to be directed at UConn. I doubt she was lobbying for a team like Dayton, given that they would join the Big East so fast they'd sign the contract before reading it.
 
For the record guys, I'd love to be wrong about this. I'd love to hear that adding a team like Dayton or St. Louis would be similar in value to a team like UConn. I just highly doubt that's the case, and haven't seen anything to the contrary.

Which seems more likely:
*Fox adds UConn men's and women's basketball, agrees to renegotiate contract to $7 million per team per year
OR
*Fox adds Dayton basketball, agrees to renegotiate contract to $7 million per team per year

One seems realistic while the other is laughable. If Fox wanted Dayton or St. Louis we would've added them 6 years ago.
 
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[quote="Adam" post=307824]
Aside from that, due to the lack of data all I can go by is what people like Jerry Carino are saying. He's an AP writer and flat out stated that Big East/Fox want UConn. Val's comments from a few days ago also appear to be directed at UConn. I doubt she was lobbying for a team like Dayton, given that they would join the Big East so fast they'd sign the contract before reading it.[/quote]

He's a Jersey guy who recently did an interview with Hurley. I'm thinking he's a fan and wants it to happen. Yukon would jump at signing up for the Big East even with penalties, and anything else is just delusional yukon fan speak. I'm also not buying that all the schools want yukon.
 
[quote="Paul Massell" post=307826][quote="Adam" post=307824]
Aside from that, due to the lack of data all I can go by is what people like Jerry Carino are saying. He's an AP writer and flat out stated that Big East/Fox want UConn. Val's comments from a few days ago also appear to be directed at UConn. I doubt she was lobbying for a team like Dayton, given that they would join the Big East so fast they'd sign the contract before reading it.[/quote]

He's a Jersey guy who recently did an interview with Hurley. I'm thinking he's a fan and wants it to happen. Yukon would jump at signing up for the Big East even with penalties, and anything else is just delusional yukon fan speak. I'm also not buying that all the schools want yukon.[/quote]

Wouldn't shock me, though I do remember him specifically stating in a reply that he had direct knowledge of the situation. So either he's lying, misinformed, or there's something going on.

I don't know much about the guy so that's all I can say about it.
 
[quote="Adam" post=307825]For the record guys, I'd love to be wrong about this. I'd love to hear that adding a team like Dayton or St. Louis would be similar in value to a team like UConn. I just highly doubt that's the case, and haven't seen anything to the contrary.

Which seems more likely:
*Fox adds UConn men's and women's basketball, agrees to renegotiate contract to $7 million per team per year
OR
*Fox adds Dayton basketball, agrees to renegotiate contract to $7 million per team per year

One seems realistic while the other is laughable. If Fox wanted Dayton or St. Louis we would've added them 6 years ago.[/quote]

The present deal runs through 2025. There is a stipulation that says that if the BE expands for up to 2 teams the $$$ per team per year from Fox will stay the same with Fox increasing the fees proportionately. The present deal is for about $4.2 million per year per team. So based on all that I don't think either of your scenarios is going to happen. Yes UConn is of higher value than Dayton, but is it worth so much to Fox to increase the fees 85%? Probably not., given that there are 6 years left on the deal after this season.
 
[quote="Paul Massell" post=307821][quote="Adam" post=307820]
UConn would be worth far more to Fox than anybody else out there. I don't see how there could be a case for anybody else in terms of $$$.[/quote]

That is an assumption but I am not sure that it is true. They don't bring much to the table that doesn't already exist. They also don't have a massive fan base outside of the northeast. They are not a draw in the AAC. I'd have to see some numbers that actually support your assumption. I'm thinking for example that Cincinnati/Xavier is a much bigger game than Cincinnati/Yukon. Even this year being down year for Xavier. Whatever yukon brings why couldn't a Dayton bring more? Creighton was not at the top of lists in the Big East but they have a great fan base and have grown as a program with the Big East. Dayton could be a similar program and fits the profile without any of the baggage.[/quote]

Just throwing this out there, but UConn is a national brand based on the success of the women's team alone, who the Big East would also get. Their recent history of success makes them a household name even for the common basketball fan. You won't get that with a Dayton. So you can see why Fox might like them. Just one factor to consider.
 
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