Adios Tariq

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[quote="Mean Gene" post=277322]I will say this about the Owens situation. While I want him to stay and accept his role, if you look at the teams who are still alive in the NCAA Tournament, especially the lower seeds like a Loyola-Chicago, what’s the one thing they all have in common? THEY SHARE THE BALL! Even the higher seeded teams like Nova and others. The kids are unselfish and don’t care who scores the points as long as they win and they are also committed to defense. If Owens wants more shots at the expense of winning games just so he can get his points then we don’t need him here if he’s that selfish. He also is not a good passer or one on one defender. He great shot blocker coming off the help or weak side but that does not necessarily constitute a commitment to or quality of overall defensive play. We need unselfish players who are going to buy into sharing the ball and getting the best shot possible. Yes, Shamorie is our best player and at times we will need him to take over games . Especially, close games at the end. But, for the most part we need team guys who are willing to share the ball and not complain about how many shots they are getting. Owens obviously does not want to be that player. Therefore ,let him go and let’s find a role player big guy with the skill sets that we need.[/quote]

+1000

That's why while we criticize Chris Mullin for lack of retention in this case he gained my respect if he says don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.........or, doesn't waste his time even meeting with the Owens.
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=277310][quote="Logen" post=277304]So let’s use Nova as the yardstick. Wright’s first year 2001-2002, there were at least 3 significant returnees, Gary Buchanan who averaged 13.4 points the year before, Ricky Wright 8.6, and Brook Sales 9.0. In addition Derrick Snowden who averaged 4.2 and Reggie Bryant 5.7. They went 19-13. Buchanan, Wright and Snowden returned after averaging 17.8, 13.7, and 10,4 respectively. To those returnees, Wright added a very heralded recruiting class of Randy Foye, Allan Ray, Curtis Sumpter, and Jason Fraser. Despite the mixture of experience and talented youth they went 15-16. The next year, with the freshmen now sophomores, returning Snowden and adding Mike Nardi, they went 18-17. Those 3 years they went 21-27 in the BE. This not to knock Wright or praise Mullin, certainly one has proven himself and the other very much remains to be seen. But it is to state building a program is hard, even for an experienced coach coming in to a stable situation.[/quote]

"But it is to state building a program is hard, even for an experienced coach coming in to a stable situation."

While I agree with everything you have said, St. John's, a bottom dweller, apparently chose the very long and risky approach by hiring a coach who never coached, and assistants that never assisted while preparing to fire an incompetent A.D., with a college president who never guided any major university with any major sports program.
At St. John's we have treated building a basketball program the way the mafia builds whore houses: with a lot of risky sex with goal of making profits over horn dog customers.
We are the customers who keep coming back for more.[/quote]

Then stop coming back if you feel that way. Just kidding with that. SJU did what it did in hiring Mullin and I have the same approach I had with all the other coaching disasters this program has had since Looie, let it play out. Look at it this way, all our coaching picks since then have failed and they were all experienced college coaches to some degree. There are things about Mullin I really like, the obvious improvement on defense this year, the way he kept the team focused and playing hard through LoVett’s desertion and the losing streak. Not crazy about his offensive approach at the college level, I just don’t think players at this level are mature enough to play that way and the bad shots and silly turnovers attest to that.
I don’t feel the recruiting has been bad at all considering where we started from. I could rationalize the defections but the truth is I don’t know why, especially Williams and Ellison. Both smack of an unwillingness to compete and in hindsight both seem like poor choices. Wilson clearly went for the money, whether from Uconn directly or indirectly.
Owens also makes no sense to me but there it is. Looking at the tournament, I don’t even see any mid-majors he would be a feature player for; personally I think he was in an ideal situation but what do I know? A wing player? I don’t remember a single time in two years he did anything significant off the dribble, to his credit he didn’t try because he can’t. Personally, make him the featured player at any D1 program and he will be exposed, showcasing how limited his skills really are.
Rambling some to say the least but I am neither a Mullin groupie or detractor - as you said, the school gambled on him and at the end of the day I think he has done a good, not great, job in getting the program pointed in the right direction, nothing more, nothing less. And MY expectations, after what I consider his 2nd season, was only that. Now admittedly, I was impressed and I don’t think wrongly, with the talent on this year’s team so my expectations changed and I thought we had a legitimate shot at 20 wins. I was wrong, the LoVett quit just could not be overcome. So considering how low this program was, the obvious learning curve Mullin had to climb and comparing his work to some great coaches hired into much better situations, I am CAUTIOUSLY optimistic for the future.
 
Things are so much more complicated than just star ratings. I am watching Purdue and Butler play in a tournament game and I don't see any five star recruits that I am aware of out on the court. They may have some four star recruits in their rotations, but they also have plenty of three star and lower level talent on the court making a difference. It is how you find the talent, assess their ability to blend into your system and make those players into a cohesive effective team that dictates how much success you will achieve on the court.

Outside the world of Coach K and Calipari recruiting for the top talent is a real crap shoot. You can spend years building a relationship with a kid and trying to convince them to come to your school and have them go elsewhere at the drop of a hat. When you do get a kid at a four star or a five star level it guarantees nothing. There are so many highly ranked kids that we have brought in that have not lived up to their ratings. There have been others who were not thought of as highly that have gone on to have really good careers.

For example Kassoum Yakwe was a four star recruit who we landed over Kansas, Villanova, Syracuse and Louisville. Based on that he should be a beloved member of our roster by our fans. However he has had an up and down career so far and some fans here have encouraged him to transfer. Hopefully he will stay and blossom into a player that makes a strong impact on our program next year. Tariq Owens and Marvin Clark, two of our core four, were both given ratings of three stars. Yakwe was more coveted than either of them but it seems if we could reassess their stars right now it might come out differently.

Watching the tournament I watched Rob Gray of Houston and was stunned how brilliantly he played. He scored the most points in the first two rounds (62 points) since Steph Curry had 70. Rob Gray was just a two star recruit (how is this possible). During the Big East season Andrew Rowsey of Marquette consistently amazed me with his quickness, toughness, court energy and off the charts shooting range. Watching him play you would have thought that he must have been a highly thought of recruit, but in actuality he was just another undervalued two star player.

I remember in the waning days of the Lavin era reading here about the merits of Brandon Sampson our four star commit who was going to be our program changer. Well after Lavin left, Mr. Sampson decided to be a program changer at LSU instead of St. John's. Despite his four star rating he has not been exactly a program changer.for them.
(by the way I have provided the link to the ratings for the players mentioned in this post below)

Switching sports to my beloved Mets I will mention that back in 1988 the LA Dodgers selected future hall of fame catcher Mike Piazza in the 62nd round (Player number 1390 selected in the amateur draft). Back in 1966 another catcher, Steve Chilcott, was selected number one in the amateur draft but never played in a major league game. By the way the player taken number two right after Chilcott was an outfielder from Arizona State named Reggie Jackson.

Remember ratings, assessing talent and finding players is a subjective process and these star ratings will never completely replace excellent scouting and pavement pounding. You can apply the famous Thomas Edison quote here: "Genius Is One Percent Inspiration, Ninety-Nine Percent Perspiration"

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/186489/tariq-owens

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/news/_/id/169200/marvin-clark

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/172522/kassoum-yakwe

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/3907778/rob-gray

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/102675/andrew-rowsey

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/169288/brandon-sampson
 
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Thought Tariq was described as a 4* out of HS when he first transferred to us from TN. But I failed to check that. Thanks.
 
[quote="Moose" post=277317][quote="Beast of the East" post=277213]We need 2 recruiters on our staff[/quote]

Why just 2? Why not 4?
It's not like the players train and practice 40 hours a week. Plenty of time to go around.[/quote]
BINGO! exactly right! Football has a head coach and now 10 assistants. Guess how many recruit? All 11 that's how many. This one recruiter is BS. 4 guys pounding the pavement or get 4 guys in here they can and are willing.
 
[quote="ghostzapper" post=277331]Things are so much more complicated than just star ratings. I am watching Purdue and Butler play in a tournament game and I don't see any five star recruits that I am aware of out on the court. They may have some four star recruits in their rotations, but they also have plenty of three star and lower level talent on the court making a difference. It is how you find the talent, assess their ability to blend into your system and make those players into a cohesive effective team that dictates how much success you will achieve on the court.

Outside the world of Coach K and Calipari recruiting for the top talent is a real crap shoot. You can spend years building a relationship with a kid and trying to convince them to come to your school and have them go elsewhere at the drop of a hat. When you do get a kid at a four star or a five star level it guarantees nothing. There are so many highly ranked kids that we have brought in that have not lived up to their ratings. There have been others who were not thought of as highly that have gone on to have really good careers.

For example Kassoum Yakwe was a four star recruit who we landed over Kansas, Villanova, Syracuse and Louisville. Based on that he should be a beloved member of our roster by our fans. However he has had an up and down career so far and some fans here have encouraged him to transfer. Hopefully he will stay and blossom into a player that makes a strong impact on our program next year. Tariq Owens and Marvin Clark, two of our core four, were both given ratings of three stars. Yakwe was more coveted than either of them but it seems if we could reassess their stars right now it might come out differently.

Watching the tournament I watched Rob Gray of Houston and was stunned how brilliantly he played. He scored the most points in the first two rounds (62 points) since Steph Curry had 70. Rob Gray was just a two star recruit (how is this possible). During the Big East season Andrew Rowsey of Marquette consistently amazed me with his quickness, toughness, court energy and off the charts shooting range. Watching him play you would have thought that he must have been a highly thought of recruit, but in actuality he was just another undervalued two star player.

I remember in the waning days of the Lavin era reading here about the merits of Brandon Sampson our four star commit who was going to be our program changer. Well after Lavin left, Mr. Sampson decided to be a program changer at LSU instead of St. John's. Despite his four star rating he has not been exactly a program changer.for them.
(by the way I have provided the link to the ratings for the players mentioned in this post below)


Remember ratings, assessing talent and finding players is a subjective process and these star ratings will never completely replace excellent scouting and pavement pounding.



Excellent insight and discussion in your post GZ! I appreciate much of what you had to share - and researched.

I prefer to watch a Willie Glass or a David Cain or a Billy Singleton or a Billy Goodwin *** mature, grow and give us four/two meaningful years - than watch a one and done a 4-5 star player or a 4-5 star player with the wrong attitude.


*** I’m sure there are many other examples solid St. John’s players who gave it their all and improved over the course of their college days ( 2 year JCs, 4 year HS kids etc.). They became part of the SJU family by the time and effort they gave. They were fun to watch and easy to root for.
 
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[quote="Logen" post=277330][quote="Class of 72" post=277310][quote="Logen" post=277304]So let’s use Nova as the yardstick. Wright’s first year 2001-2002, there were at least 3 significant returnees, Gary Buchanan who averaged 13.4 points the year before, Ricky Wright 8.6, and Brook Sales 9.0. In addition Derrick Snowden who averaged 4.2 and Reggie Bryant 5.7. They went 19-13. Buchanan, Wright and Snowden returned after averaging 17.8, 13.7, and 10,4 respectively. To those returnees, Wright added a very heralded recruiting class of Randy Foye, Allan Ray, Curtis Sumpter, and Jason Fraser. Despite the mixture of experience and talented youth they went 15-16. The next year, with the freshmen now sophomores, returning Snowden and adding Mike Nardi, they went 18-17. Those 3 years they went 21-27 in the BE. This not to knock Wright or praise Mullin, certainly one has proven himself and the other very much remains to be seen. But it is to state building a program is hard, even for an experienced coach coming in to a stable situation.[/quote]

"But it is to state building a program is hard, even for an experienced coach coming in to a stable situation."

While I agree with everything you have said, St. John's, a bottom dweller, apparently chose the very long and risky approach by hiring a coach who never coached, and assistants that never assisted while preparing to fire an incompetent A.D., with a college president who never guided any major university with any major sports program.
At St. John's we have treated building a basketball program the way the mafia builds whore houses: with a lot of risky sex with goal of making profits over horn dog customers.
We are the customers who keep coming back for more.[/quote]
)
(
Then stop coming back if you feel that way. Just kidding with that. SJU did what it did in hiring Mullin and I have the same approach I had with all the other coaching disasters this program has had since Looie, let it play out. Look at it this way, all our coaching picks since then have failed and they were all experienced college coaches to some degree. There are things about Mullin I really like, the obvious improvement on defense this year, the way he kept the team focused and playing hard through LoVett’s desertion and the losing streak. Not crazy about his offensive approach at the college level, I just don’t think players at this level are mature enough to play that way and the bad shots and silly turnovers attest to that.
I don’t feel the recruiting has been bad at all considering where we started from. I could rationalize the defections but the truth is I don’t know why, especially Williams and Ellison. Both smack of an unwillingness to compete and in hindsight both seem like poor choices. Wilson clearly went for the money, whether from Uconn directly or indirectly.
Owens also makes no sense to me but there it is. Looking at the tournament, I don’t even see any mid-majors he would be a feature player for; personally I think he was in an ideal situation but what do I know? A wing player? I don’t remember a single time in two years he did anything significant off the dribble, to his credit he didn’t try because he can’t. Personally, make him the featured player at any D1 program and he will be exposed, showcasing how limited his skills really are.
Rambling some to say the least but I am neither a Mullin groupie or detractor - as you said, the school gambled on him and at the end of the day I think he has done a good, not great, job in getting the program pointed in the right direction, nothing more, nothing less. And MY expectations, after what I consider his 2nd season, was only that. Now admittedly, I was impressed and I don’t think wrongly, with the talent on this year’s team so my expectations changed and I thought we had a legitimate shot at 20 wins. I was wrong, the LoVett quit just could not be overcome. So considering how low this program was, the obvious learning curve Mullin had to climb and comparing his work to some great coaches hired into much better situations, I am CAUTIOUSLY optimistic for the future.[/quote]

Great post Logen!
I "think" we basically agree. Especially about being cautiously optimistic. Not being one of the many attorneys here, I don't try to spin the truth or the record, to make a point in defense of Mullin who, going into year four, is under more scrutiny because of the poor record. However, I have been around this program long enough to see Chris is trying his best and I lauded him for holding the team together after the disastrous 0-11. Unlike some Mullin groupies that gave him a C+, I gave him a grade of B.
As for Owens, he and his dad were not going to risk him becoming a 6th man again which would be the case if they signed a good 5th year player or Jordan Brown or any 4 star forward for that matter. They obviously know the defects in his game that you pointed out I agree with most here that, other than his terrific blocking ability and average shooting, he was weak everywhere else....defense, rebounding, strength, positioning, ball control, passing just to name a few. You can't coach height of course but that height has to be part of the process rather than the process itself.
 
My apologies guys if my post was taken as comparing Mullin and Wright as if it's fair. My point was that you can see when you have a good coach...you can see the progress clearly with player development. Nova got a few 3 stars and yes many 4 stars, but it's deceiving. They seem to get many ranked from 75-150 which may still qualify as 4 star recruits but they are closer to the 3/4 border than 5. Yes Spellman was a 5 star...but let's be real. We had a 5 star in Jordan and he wasn't anything special as a freshman. If we get a highly ranked player and they don't perform right away, what do we say overall? Oh well, he's just a freshman he needs time. Meanwhile, other coaches are getting similarly ranked players to buy into systems and succeed from day 1 without any excuses or drama. It just seems like we tolerate way more than other fanbases. Just my opinion but always interested to see others.

I agree Mullin was left with nothing, but next year I would hope the staff truly gets fair judgement by the stats and W/L record...not emotions. We have to separate Chris Mullin the lovable player and best player in our history from Chris Mullin the coach. I feel I've been able to do that which has allowed me to be more objective I think. Look at a coach like Wojo at Marquette. He still has a pretty good record at 72-58 but Marquette fans want more and rightfully so. Many of their fans openly question if they should go in another direction at coach. Coach Mullin is 38-60 and it seems like there's a lot of resistance to even entertain the notion that he may not be the man for the job we had hoped. My point is that we need standards. By the way, I'm no Lavin lover...he was rightfully fired IMO but the Mullin hire may end up being worse and we have gone from mediocre/solid to being DePaul's cousin. Does he deserve more time? Absolutely...but he better make it happen next year, because once Ponds is gone who is the major recruit filling his spot? The Duke and Nova games were so much fun to bask in this year, but can't lose focus of the overall trajectory of the program. Maybe I'm a bit premature, who knows? But I would expect others to be much more dissatisfied if we can't get it done next year. I will still root like crazy even if we get 0 bigs.
 
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[quote="Mike Zaun" post=277361]My apologies guys if my post was taken as comparing Mullin and Wright as if it's fair. My point was that you can see when you have a good coach...you can see the progress clearly with player development. Nova got a few 3 stars and yes many 4 stars, but it's deceiving[/quote]

If it's deceiving name half a dozen high Division 1 coaches who have had sustained success with three star recruits. I think there aren't any. There are coaches who are so adept at Xs and Os that they're able to mitigate a lack of talent, but Pete Carrils are few and far and between and Pete Carill never won worth winning anyway. There's a short list of X and O gurus: Brad Stevens and Bobby Knight and John Beilein. And every once in a while some dope jumps up and bites the big guy's ass in the tournament. Whereas there are any number of morons who are successful basketball coaches - dyed in the wool morons like Jim Boeheim and Bob Huggins - because they recruit more talented players than the other guy. Almost nobody wins without players. You can argue - and I wouldn't disagree - that CM hasn't gotten the players. But it's early: he's had two recruiting cycles to recruit players who other coaches have been developing relationships with since the players were in the 8th grade, as was Mullin when Lou barely convinced him to go to SJU.

Things are bad enough without inventing things to make them worse.
 
[quote="fun" post=277375][quote="Mike Zaun" post=277361]My apologies guys if my post was taken as comparing Mullin and Wright as if it's fair. My point was that you can see when you have a good coach...you can see the progress clearly with player development. Nova got a few 3 stars and yes many 4 stars, but it's deceiving[/quote]

If it's deceiving name half a dozen high Division 1 coaches who have had sustained success with three star recruits. I think there aren't any. There are coaches who are so adept at Xs and Os that they're able to mitigate a lack of talent, but Pete Carrils are few and far and between and Pete Carill never won worth winning anyway. There's a short list of X and O gurus: Brad Stevens and Bobby Knight and John Beilein. And every once in a while some dope jumps up and bites the big guy's ass in the tournament. Whereas there are any number of morons who are successful basketball coaches - dyed in the wool morons like Jim Boeheim and Bob Huggins - because they recruit more talented players than the other guy. Almost nobody wins without players. You can argue - and I wouldn't disagree - that CM hasn't gotten the players. But it's early: he's had two recruiting cycles to recruit players who other coaches have been developing relationships with since the players were in the 8th grade, as was Mullin when Lou barely convinced him to go to SJU.

Things are bad enough without inventing things to make them worse.[/quote]

We will never know the exact % of how much recruiting matters vs. coaching unfortunately. Admittedly I used to think if we just got the players, success would follow. One needs to look no further than Lavin who had damn good recruits (from a rankings perspective) good enough for some coaches to make the Sweet 16 with. We got a 5 star Jordan and wasn't Pointer top 25 or 30 nationally? Even with the ineligibilities he still had a top 10 worthy group of recruits. We did make the tourney with that group, however it was by the skin of our teeth and the player development was nonexistent except for Pointer finally emerging in his senior year as an example. So it's not just recruiting...some coaches find 3 star guys who become 4 star level with good coaching. To be quite honest, if Spellman committed to us I don't think he'd be nearly as good as he is at Nova. Why? The coaching situation. I'm not comparing Mullin to Wright directly, just pointing out that there are good coaches and bad ones. Doesn't look like we have the former right now and that goes for the assistants too, it's not all just Mullin. I'd say outside the top 10 national recruits, many will need a good coach to maximize their potential. If we got top 10's then we'd win regardless of the coach...but if we can only get top 45-150+ type guys, we will need a good coach to win consistently at a high level. I hope to god we somehow find a few beastly bigs, a good assistant coach, and go on to make the tourney next year so I can eat a heaping plate of crow.
 
Definitely need talented players but to me continuity is just as important. junior and senior 3 and 4 star players can be just as good as a lot of freshman 5 star guys unless you are talking about the super 5 star guys that go to a handful of schools regularly.

When you suffer with the borderline players the first 2 years it sucks to lose them the junior and senior years when you might reap the rewards finally. That's why it sucks to lose a player like Owens or whomever ( I'm not blaming Mullin for Owens but it sucks nonetheless )

Sure I'd like 5 star guys but I'd like continuity more importantly with 3 and 4 star guys and hopefully see them improve year over year
 
[quote="mjmaherjr" post=277377]Definitely need talented players but to me continuity is just as important. junior and senior 3 and 4 star players can be just as good as a lot of freshman 5 star guys unless you are talking about the super 5 star guys that go to a handful of schools regularly.

When you suffer with the borderline players the first 2 years it sucks to lose them the junior and senior years when you might reap the rewards finally. That's why it sucks to lose a player like Owens or whomever ( I'm not blaming Mullin for Owens but it sucks nonetheless )

Sure I'd like 5 star guys but I'd like continuity more importantly with 3 and 4 star guys and hopefully see them improve year over year[/quote]

This tournament is proving your theory almost every game. It makes me think we need to build with local, tough kids along with one all city kid and we’d be fine.
 
650 D1 players transfered last year,m. There are 337 D1 teams that’s right at 2 per team.

As of today 142 players have announced they are going to transfer.

Pretty staggering numbers, and no reason why we should be immune to this.
 
MJM: Sure I'd like 5 star guys but I'd like continuity more importantly with 3 and 4 star guys and hopefully see them improve year over year[/quote]

Totally agree, Mike. That is the model for consistent success. Recruiting 3*/4* (the raw/athletic 2*) as needed year in and out, develop them, have them invest in the philosophy, and cohere as a team and great success would follow...as we’ve seen from the Nova, Xavier, and Providence teams over the years.
 
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[quote="Beast of the East" post=277276][quote="rawdognyc" post=277273][quote="austour" post=277267][quote="Mean Gene" post=277167]Owens was a nice complimentary player but if you look at the way Mullin wants to run the offense he needs guards and athletic wings who can penetrate and shoot the three. Then what he really needs and what thus team lacked was a big 6’9 - 6’10 240 - 260 guy to play D in the paint , rebound and score some put backs and pass a little out of the post. If he has a few offensive post moves all the better. Owens is not that guy and he’s not good enough on the wing to play consistently in the offense Mullin wants to play. [/quote]

I feel like I read this exact post 22 years ago. That guy went on to contribute as a wing at Duke and even played a few years in the NBA. Of course he had to sit a year and then played two. His coach his two years at STJ sucked.[/quote]

Roshown was 6'8 220lbs out of high school.. He was chiseled.. He would've fit great into Mullins system..2 totally different players with totally different body types and skill sets.. Here's a good read on why he chose SJU even though he didn't want to be here really in the first place... Also why he left..

https://mobile.nytimes.com/1996/11/...ue-though-not-exactly-the-way-he-thought.html[/quote]

Really good post[/quote]

Roshown wasnit happen for several reasons and when it became known he wound up playing behind others. He wanted to play the wing but he did not play it at Duke as some of their bigs left and or were hurt. He was a key player and had a nice two years there as a starter and had some NBA time which was cut short due to injuries.
 
Damn, reading that brought back bad memories. Been jinxed most years since Mahoney for many reasons. SJU portrayed in a poor light versus the ‘greenery’ and ‘college life’ of Duke.
Got to create a ‘team spirit’ and student body camaraderie at St. John’s that neutralizes the ‘commuter school’ disparagements.
 
How much confidence does Owens and his dad lack worrying about sufficient playing time. Is he going to get more from a strong Division 1 school having to play the strong forward position. He doesn't rebound enough, especially offensively, fouls too much playing poor defensively.. Of course, not to be totally critical, he was always an excellent shot blocker and gave us 100%.
 
[quote="JackofVirginia" post=277398]How much confidence does Owens and his dad lack worrying about sufficient playing time. Is he going to get more from a strong Division 1 school having to play the strong forward position. He doesn't rebound enough, especially offensively, fouls too much playing poor defensively.. Of course, not to be totally critical, he was always an excellent shot blocker and gave us 100%.[/quote] if you look at his minutes last year they were up dramatically over the year before. Like 60% higher. His stats weren't up nearly as much. As some have speculated on this thread I'm guessing his father envisions a completely different role for Tariq and thats a shame because I think next year as a stretch 4 he will be a lot better suited. But the kid definitely isn't a 3 and I cringed when he spent so much time outside the arc

He is a kid who I think next year if his minutes went down his numbers would actually go higher. He always hustled on the court and he definitely put in effort in the offseason and he was a great shot blocker. Just a guess on my part but I just think they see him in a completely different role which I would disagree with

I wish him well though. Never thought he dogged it. Wish he stayed and played the 4 next year
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=277361]My apologies guys if my post was taken as comparing Mullin and Wright as if it's fair. My point was that you can see when you have a good coach...you can see the progress clearly with player development. Nova got a few 3 stars and yes many 4 stars, but it's deceiving. They seem to get many ranked from 75-150 which may still qualify as 4 star recruits but they are closer to the 3/4 border than 5. Yes Spellman was a 5 star...but let's be real. We had a 5 star in Jordan and he wasn't anything special as a freshman. If we get a highly ranked player and they don't perform right away, what do we say overall? Oh well, he's just a freshman he needs time. Meanwhile, other coaches are getting similarly ranked players to buy into systems and succeed from day 1 without any excuses or drama. It just seems like we tolerate way more than other fanbases. Just my opinion but always interested to see others.

I agree Mullin was left with nothing, but next year I would hope the staff truly gets fair judgement by the stats and W/L record...not emotions. We have to separate Chris Mullin the lovable player and best player in our history from Chris Mullin the coach. I feel I've been able to do that which has allowed me to be more objective I think. Look at a coach like Wojo at Marquette. He still has a pretty good record at 72-58 but Marquette fans want more and rightfully so. Many of their fans openly question if they should go in another direction at coach. Coach Mullin is 38-60 and it seems like there's a lot of resistance to even entertain the notion that he may not be the man for the job we had hoped. My point is that we need standards. By the way, I'm no Lavin lover...he was rightfully fired IMO but the Mullin hire may end up being worse and we have gone from mediocre/solid to being DePaul's cousin. Does he deserve more time? Absolutely...but he better make it happen next year, because once Ponds is gone who is the major recruit filling his spot? The Duke and Nova games were so much fun to bask in this year, but can't lose focus of the overall trajectory of the program. Maybe I'm a bit premature, who knows? But I would expect others to be much more dissatisfied if we can't get it done next year. I will still root like crazy even if we get 0 bigs.[/quote]

Dude, Rysheed Jordan was on the Big East All-Rookie team. I don't know if that constitutes special, but it sure as hell doesn't mean it wasn't special as you stated.
 
[quote="bamafan" post=277334][quote="Moose" post=277317][quote="Beast of the East" post=277213]We need 2 recruiters on our staff[/quote]

Why just 2? Why not 4?
It's not like the players train and practice 40 hours a week. Plenty of time to go around.[/quote]
BINGO! exactly right! Football has a head coach and now 10 assistants. Guess how many recruit? All 11 that's how many. This one recruiter is BS. 4 guys pounding the pavement or get 4 guys in here they can and are willing.[/quote]

I agree 100%!

While I was encouraged when I saw Mully and St. Jean visit Brown twice to try to get their first 5 star recruit you reminded us that Matt does the majority of the recruiting.
While Dr. Fun wrote "You can argue - and I wouldn't disagree - that CM hasn't gotten the players. But it's early: he's had two recruiting cycles to recruit players who other coaches have been developing relationships with since the players were in the 8th grade", the reality is that it is no longer the case with 90 % of high school recruits unless they are the budding sons of basketball legends or truly exceptional high school freshmen.
The two recruiting cycle rationale, while valid, is compromised imo by giving so much recruiting leeway to an assistant who specializes in transfers. I think that is why we are behind in the pursuit of some high school elites. Even though Matt Abdelmassih spent five years at Iowa State and now 3 years at St. John's, he still uses Twitter to advise us when he starts following a player basketball-wise which usually not very early in their career.
As for the recruiting ability of Mullin and his Cali buddies, none of us know yet. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt until the 2019 class. If we miss out on Precious, Karim, Lester Quinones, Trey, and a few others then I would give them an F in recruiting local talent and if they can't get the local talent they will struggle in year 5. Year 6 then becomes a swan song especially if next year the administration does not extend Mullin. Very remenisent of Lavin’s final years. Hope it doesn't happen for our collective mental health.;)
 
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